(Chris C.) wrote in message news:<79467f3.0411120822.339280a3@posting.google.com>...
......questionable posting practices..........
Chris C. I took the liberty of cross posting to a number of the groups
you called out "Hey Rube!" to recently to come and support you in your
usual ad hom, empty, unreasonable, illogical attacks. I'm sure you are
proud of your great list of 48 principles, and would want to share
them with all who know and follow your highly responsible postings.
0;->
In the absence of any regular advice --here is some that doesn't
support punishing parents who don't follow them to the letter.
There are those here that do not wish children pummeled and humiliated
who have not advocated "punishment" of parents. In fact most of us. I
for one am against any such law and have so stated many times here in
this ng.
Others have pointed to the Swedish model, a law that appeals to the
moral rectitude of people and has no fines or punishments applied to
violators of that law.
I do notice that you, as the others in The Collective here, seem to
exaggerate a great deal..to the point it appears as though you are
trying to mislead someone about us, what we each individually stand
for, and how we present that position.
I have said that I am fearful such punitive laws will pass if you and
others are not persuaded morally to reconsider and eventually change
your positions. I am more fearful now than ever. There will be a large
backlash to the current climate, I'm afraid.
-Special notes to new posters: I do not support the reform of
reasonable force statutes that lead to punitive measures for parents
who may use discipline within the current legal limits (this would
include but is not limited to physical restraint to protect a child
from harm of self or others).
No such statutes exist. Reasonable force has to do with police powers
and self defense and defense of others. Discipline, by its name and
nature, means to teach, more specifically from its latin roots, to
draw out or draw forward.
I appreciate the motivation and inspiration to review my long ago
education in matters such as these...and decided to see if my memory
serves me well in my dotage:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=discipline
.....
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French & Latin; Old French, from
Latin discipline teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
In my musings and rambling over "discipline"... such a fine word you
used, I ran across this elegant, one could even say, profound and
literate definition:
"
"Discipline" has a variety of meanings today: field of study,
self-control, punishment. The first of these is closest to its
original meaning. The word derives from the Latin discere, to learn,
akin to docere, to teach. The latter gives rise to such words as
"docent" and "docile." According to Webster's, the primary meaning of
docile is "easily taught" and only secondarily did docile come to mean
"tractable," that is "easily managed." If one were to remain faithful
to its original intent, the goal of discipline would be teachability,
not tractability.
"
The Author, Dr. Gene Maier, a mathematician, is someone I have met in
my offline life. He's as wonderful to listen to as to read. I
recommend you go to his page, where this is much more material even
more useful and thought provoking at:
http://www.mlc.pdx.edu/ARC060998.html
The entire article was copyrighted in 1998, so I suggest you not, if
you chose to cite it, be careful not to take the entire body of it,
minus an item or two and post it without citation. I'm sure Dr Maier,
like you, and like myself, and other academics, is very aware of what
is and isn't fair usage. And I'm so sure of it that I did so above,
confident that I need not contact Dr. Maier for permission.
Folks in the trade, as it were, know perfectly well how to cite within
fair use common guidelines, don't we Chris?
Anyway, if anyone reading is interested in a source for math teaching
concepts and philosophy of learning thoughts one couldn't do much
better than Dr. Maier.
-also do not post any personal information on this site. Often
participants in this n.g. will use/abuse the information and conti nue
to do so if you return.
I am today more concerned with the use/abuse not of personal
information..since no one was doing that until you and those much as
you ran out of arguments with Chris Dugan and frustrated, apparently,
began to attack the man, ad hominem, as it were.
The ng at that time, as the archives show, degenerated rather quickly
when an advocate of non-spanking would once again show how lacking in
logic and reason the spanking compulsive Collective was, and they
would attack, as you have, or even more crudely.
My entire act here for the past two years or so has been about that
very thing. An example for you to think about....apparently you
didn't. You failed to return to reasoned debate, and even when to
....well, what you've done below.
Chris, is the list below, or is it not the majority of the property
expressed on a single web page of the owner of a website, a Ms Laurie
A. Couture, M.Ed, LMHC, at ...
http://www.childadvocate.org/2e.htm
.... who appends her list of 50 principles with this fair use and
copyright notice?
"
Note: Note: All writing and artwork on this site © 1999 - 2004 by
Laurie A. Couture, M.Ed, LMHC, and must be properly cited. You must
ask permission if you intend to copy, distribute or use any portion of
this information in written form beyond citations.
"
In other words, she is saying you could point to her site with an URL,
and probably post one or two of her "principles" and it would be, as
any publisher or academic knows, a fair and acceptable common
practice..but to take the majority of her page, about 90% of her list,
leaving out two ... what? ... "inconvenient" "principles?" that might
not mesh with your usual little rants here.....tsk, Chris C. who
chooses not to spank, tsk.
I'll leave "your" list, as I have properly cited above, with notice of
who I believe to be the true author, as she requests.
READERS! Be advised, the citation above to Laurie A. Couture I believe
is the legal requirement. Ms Couture has a website rich in good
parenting advice, but as far as I could find she is not an advocate
of, nor does she support those who actually do use pain and
humiliation parenting.
As an example of fair use of others intellectual property I'll
demonstrate by doing a proper citation under common and well known
standards of citation protocol...first the source, then a short quote
to identify the material. You'll see how Ms Couture's site was
completely misused by someone that promotes others choosing to use
physical force and humiliation on a child as "parenting."
Any of you that are serious about good parenting would do well to
visit at:
http://www.childadvocate.org/
"
Historically, children have been and are still the most oppressed,
exploited and victimized group of human beings on the planet. Children
remain the most voiceless and the most discriminated against group of
people in all societies. While every adult group has fought for and
won basic human rights protections and freedoms (USA), children remain
the only group of human beings without the same rights to equality,
respect, protection from bodily harm and freedom of speech. In an era
in history when social injustices are decried and combated
aggressively, it is unthinkable that we have stopped short of fully
including children when we fight for and establish basic human rights
protections for all people. The purpose of this web site is to educate
the public about the overlooked ways in which children's human rights
are not protected; how these abuses have contributed to dysfunction in
society; and how we can become true advocates for kids.
"
.......for the remainder of the authors comments please click on the
leading URL to this paragraph.......
Does that look to you like anything Chris C. has ever supported here?
Chris? Comments? Clarifications? Excuses? Apologies?
Or are we to be treated to your usual way of "debating" that you have
done for years here?
You keep waiting and you could be running out of time. Someone is
bound to alert the author.
Kane
48 Suggestions:
Positive Discipline: 48 Principles & Alternatives to Punishment
Principle #1: Decode the message behind the misbehavior
Principle #2: Understand WHY the behavior is occurring
Principle #3: Help the child calm down by staying calm and speaking
calmly
Principle #4: Explain to the child how his/her behavior affects others
Principle #5: If possible, alter the precipitating factors that led to
the behavior
Principle #6: Discuss together a non-punitive consequence for the
behavior that is logical to the behavior
Principle #7: Carry out what you promised to carry out when you
promised to do so
Principle #8: Do not nag, lecture, threaten or use sarcasm
Principle #9: Praise efforts and reward success
Principle #10: If the behavior begins to occur again, give a reminder
of why the behavior is not appropriate- you will need to be consistent
over time
Principle #11: Unless the behavior involves harming self, others or
property, give three warnings "1,2,3..."
Principle #12: Immediately follow through with the consequence with a
brief restating of the infraction in a firm (but friendly) tone
Principle #13: Discuss with the child what occurred, why it wasn't
acceptable and how it can be prevented in the future.
Principle #14: Let the child voice his/her feelings freely without
judgment
Principle #15: Help the child to understand that he/she is a good,
acceptable person and that the behavior, not the child, is
unacceptable- accept young people unconditionally regardless of their
behavior
Principle #16: Remember what it was like to be at the child's age.
Refrain from tacking adult meanings and connotations onto childish
behavior
Principle #17: Read up on child and adolescent development and find
out if what you are expecting is developmentally appropriate- or if
the misbehavior is age-appropriate behavior
Principle #18: Understand each child's individual capabilities, needs
and circumstances and modify your expectations and approaches
accordingly
Principle #19: If the child has multiple negative behaviors, only
focus on modifying those that are most destructive to self, others and
property
Principle #20: Empower children with acceptable choices- don't just
tell them what they CAN'T do- give them acceptable alternatives
Principle #21: Use re-direction, distraction and selective ignoring
for minor infractions
Principle #22: Use of the toilet should be viewed as a necessary
right, not a privilege- promote health and healthy attitudes towards
the body by honoring this right- if children misuse the bathroom pass
in school, have them use the toilet in the nurse's office for one week
as a consequence
Principle #23: Decode the need the child is trying to meet by his/her
misbehavior and help them meet that need by acceptable means
Principle #24: If the child is out of control, guide them to a quiet
area to calm down before discussing the problem
Principle #25: If a child must be placed in a "time out", do not
impose a time limit- let the child come out when he/she is ready-
never leave a young child unsupervised- never close a child into a
frightening room- do not banish the child
Principle #26: If the child comes out of a "time out" prematurely,
state that it looks as if he/she is ready to behave appropriately and
give them that chance- avoid forcing them back in unless the behavior
starts up again
Principle #27: Children often misbehave when they lack attention- give
them the attention they need and deserve- including hugging, patting
the back, ruffling the hair, high fives, etc.
Principle #28: Rather than give "do not" messages, state what you
would like to see instead
Principle #29: If physical restraint is necessary to avoid an attack
against the self or others, do so progressively, in stages beginning
with a verbal warning, increased physical proximity, followed by a
hand on the shoulder and then a gentle hand on the arm, progressing
with as little restraint as possible to keep the child from harming
self or others
Principle #30: If the child shows lack of attention and restlessness,
evaluate whether the activities you provide are stimulating, exciting,
involving and appropriate to the learning style and intelligence needs
of the child
Principle #31: Discuss the importance of verbalizing feelings rather
than acting on impulses- model this!
Principle #32: Model the behaviors you want to see your children
emulate
Principle #33: Do not engage in conduct that you don't allow in your
children
Principle #34: If your child has consistent behavioral problems do
your best to alleviate the causes- enforce only necessary limits and
cut away unnecessary rules and inflexible ways of doing things
Principle #35: Teach and model positive, healthy guilt and remorse
that leads to restitution and responsibility- teach and model good
social skills
Principle #36: Never shame, belittle or humiliate your child- help
them build a positive self-image and a healthy self-esteem
Principle #37: Admit when you've made mistakes and apologize to your
child
Principle #38: Teach and model that violence is not acceptable,
including that it is never acceptable for adults to hit children
Principle #39: Be involved with the media your child is viewing and
discuss what they see and why it is positive or negative
Principle #40: The rule about gaining respect is to earn it- you earn
it from a child by giving it to them
Principle #41: Help a frequently errant child succeed by giving
him/her small steps towards a goal that ensures success- never give up
on a kid!
Principle #42: Do guide children and do not leave them to regulate
their own behavior- children feel unsafe when there are no limits at
all- spend more time with them
Principle #43: Tune in to, rather than ignore, physical and verbal
cues that something is bothering a child
Principle #44: Deescalate a problem before the child gets out of
control- be aware of the warning signs of escalating behavior
Principle #45: Treat boys with the same dignity and caring, gentle,
loving concern that you treat girls with- do not discipline boys for a
behavior that you allow girls to get away with- do not tolerate sexist
attitudes in girls that you wouldn't allow boys to get away with- do
not put gender restrictions on toys, emotions, hobbies and activities
Principle #46: Avoid power struggles and verbal fights with older
kids- negotiate democratically when possible
Principle #47: Honor a child's need for autonomy and power over some
aspects of his/her decisions- let them make decisions where
appropriate
Principle #48: Above all, treat all children with dignity and respect
by refraining from using negative, punitive and violent methods of
control- Use positive methods that promote critical thinking and show
love, caring, empathy, understanding and patience towards all children
--I'm interested in hearing from those of you who are not supportive
of the "cohort" agenda to punish parents through revoking the
reasonable force statutes on the books. Here in TX we are keeping an
eye on them when they try to harm families by extending the control of
laws to further limit family rights and by putting kids at greater
risk through the use of spurious data/research.--I am not interested
in any
contact with the"cohort" and have
boycotted any conversations with them for several years now.
To avoid debate when you know you have lost. The data is not spurious.
It is very standard fair for social science research. And similar
research on other social issues have guided policy and law making. I
can understand what you are afraid of, but I think you are simply
afraid your pet project here is about to go down the tubes as the
public becomes more and more aware of the moral issues involved in
hitting human beings to "teach" them.
Their
agenda is all to obvious and very harmful to families.
Well, despite your claim above, I am not finding it all "to
abvious"[sic], since you haven't said what it is. This ad hom by
innuendo seems to be all you have left in your "debate."
--The only point
we agree on is that spanking is not needed to discipline kids--beyond
that they beat the drum for their singular cause (spanking = child
abuse---no matter what and parents who use it should be punished).
No, we also agree with you that you lack honesty and integrity in
debate...but while you know it, you won't let yourself think it
consciously.
***I would like to add that they owe an apology to those adults who
grew up with "real" abuse (as in most current legal definitions).
I should hope.
Their attempt to fuzz the lines
Actually have been asking for about 6 months now that someone in the
spanking compulsive Collective please clarify what spanking parents
claim to know...where the limit of discipline leaves off and the
beginning of abuse in the US of CP begins.
So far, no one has been able to remove the fuzz.
Our, or at least my, solution to that innate fuzziness of the safety
of the use of CP, is to do what you say is a choice.....don't spank.
Don't use pain and humiliation to teach. And certainly not to punish.
Unless your child is a criminal and you are all three branches of
government who will arrest, charge, try, and convict..then punish.
does great disservice to you and all
those who have been harmed.
On the contrary. We have the solution that escapes you....considering
the number of parents that "discipline" their children into hospital
or death. Don't use it at all.
I would also like to see poster return to
the n.g. that have been chased off by the bullying tactics of this
group (they have violated and continue to do so most rules of
netiquette).
Odd...you refuse to reply to offers to debate...you make claims about
other in the ng that are blatant lies, and you post barely concealed
ad hom attacks behind a few fancy phrases and a lot of insinuation,
yet you are concerned about others "netiquette?"
Charming.
I'm sure they have used these type of tactics in their
own homes, with their families (and friends). We do not advocate their
example...
How could you be sure of any such thing? You've not been in my home,
with family, or with friends of mine. And you ARE, apparently, an
advocate of highly risky choices for parents when you support their
right to strike their child...no matter what you or they wish to call
it to minimize it.
In addition you are a constant poster of silly ad hom that is quite as
vicious as anything I've dreamt up here to shock and smack you fools
upside the head.
They support full equal--political, social rights for kids and have
posted as much.
Yes, as did the website owner whose work you seemed to value so much
that you would post it here without citation of her work.
Keep an eye on them in your community they have no
practical understanding of what they propose. Parents are the true
advocates of their children---not neo-social constructionist.
Anyone who wishes to actually debate the issues related to the use of
CP in child rearing and discipline has always been welcome here. What
Chris C. is trying so impotently to cover up and divert from is what
you would find if you went back to some of the original opening
arguments and debates on this ng.
The fact is that anti spanking advocates that posted here were treated
to the most abusive and outrageous attacks. These included unprovable
claims presented as absolute truths and when disproved by one of us
nothing offered in rebuttal but repeating the same flawed and factless
claims all over again.
This has gone of for 10 years.
If YOU have a real debate, and some real data not produced by bias do
present it.
Non-spanker by choice
Possibly, since Chris C. has taken what amounts to a monk like vow of
silence in regards to those that would debate him fairly if he'd
participate, you could ask Chris if he has any children to make that
particular "choice" meaningful.
See if he answers you.
Chris C.
TX
Texas, eh? Interesting. Who wrote the list you posted as our own,
Chris? What's it called when an academic publishes other's works as
their own? How legal is it to do that?
You might wish to brush up.
http://www.library.cup.edu/copyright.html
Kane
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