| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John" |
| Date: |
01 Feb 2005 08:05:42 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
NO you are doing an "isegesis" on this passage 1 Cor 6:9-10 and making
it sound what you wnat it to sound like.
The bible says this about what you are doing.
2Pet. 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them
of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to
understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the
other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Why do you distort the word to make it sound like what you want it to
sound like?
Not even Pastor Dave Raymond would disagree here!
I Timothy 1:10 refers to "them that defile themselves with
mankind"; this is a translation of the same Greek word
"arsenokoites" as appears in I Corinthians.
Btw, the passage speaks only of men who lie with men. What
about lesbians then? The bible is silent on that front.
No it is not silent. It speaks clearly that they will not inherit the
kingdom of God living in their sin. How hard is it to understand?
Obviously they need grace and someone to love them, which is what we
should do!!
And the final parts of the passage refer to drunkenness
and covetousness. Do you ever get drunk, John? Will
you lose heaven for that? Do you ever covet your
neighbor's possessions? It seems that in the passages
you cite, these are as bad as homosexual sex.
NO they are not. When you are homosexual there are many other sins that
you are also committing.
Romans has some advice about homosexuality.
Rom. 1:21 ¶ For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their
foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Rom. 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom. 1:24 ¶ Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one
another.
Rom. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served created things rather than the Creator ‹ who is forever praised.
Amen.
John
In fact,
the passage also figures large in condemning those
who hire any prostitute whether male or female.
In article <qgrvv056a2c35f9fb8iffloehcqqscopm3@4ax.com>,
toto <scarecrow@wicked.witch> wrote:
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:50:04 -0800, John <johnw_94020@yahoo.com>
wrote:
No I'm not a gay.
For the bible says.
1Cor. 6:9 ¶ Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters
nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Remember that the translation into English may not be as
accurate as you would like:
I Corinthians 6:9-10 reads, "Know ye not that the unrighteous
shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither
fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor
abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall
inherit the kingdom of God." "Effeminate" is a poor translation
of the Greek word "malakos" which means "soft". The
word is not translated as "effeminate" anywhere else in the
Bible. It is the same word that is translated as "soft" in Matthew
11:8 ("But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft
raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings'
houses"; similarly Luke 7:25). In a moral sense, "malakos"
just means "licentious"; Aristotle in the _Nicomachean Ethics_
(7.4.4) says specifically that "malakos" refers to unrestraint in
respect to bodily pleasures. The translation as "effeminate"
seems awfully gratuitous. "Abuser of himself with mankind"
is a translation of the Greek word "arsenokoites"; this word
has changed meaning several times over the centuries, so
it's perhaps understandable how it got translated as it did;
but in Paul's time, and in fact until well into the fourth century,
it seems to have simply meant a temple prostitute.
(Corroborating this indirectly is the fact that a great deal
of contemporary homoerotic Greek writing has survived
and not once in any of it does the word "arsenokoites"
appear.)
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
.
|
|
| User: "Melania" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
01 Feb 2005 08:36:19 PM |
|
|
John wrote:
NO you are doing an "isegesis" on this passage 1 Cor 6:9-10 and
making
it sound what you wnat it to sound like.
The bible says this about what you are doing.
2Pet. 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in
them
of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to
understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do
the
other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
For those who are interested, "He" in this passage is Paul. John is
quoting verbatim the CEV of the Holy Bible. See John's leap of logic
regarding Paul's letter to the Romans, below.
Why do you distort the word to make it sound like what you want it to
sound like?
Why do you? Because that's what you're doing in your discussion of
Romans 1:21-25, below.
Btw, the passage speaks only of men who lie with men. What
about lesbians then? The bible is silent on that front.
No it is not silent. It speaks clearly that they will not inherit
the
kingdom of God living in their sin. How hard is it to understand?
Obviously they need grace and someone to love them, which is what we
should do!!
Oh, I missed the part in the Bible where it says, "decide for yourself
what sin is and then tell other people that they don't get to go to
heaven for it."
<snip>
It seems that in the passages
you cite, these are as bad as homosexual sex.
NO they are not. When you are homosexual there are many other sins
that
you are also committing.
What are these many other sins of which you speak? Name them.
Romans has some advice about homosexuality.
Rom. 1:21 =B6 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him
as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and
their
foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Rom. 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom. 1:24 =B6 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of
their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one
another.
Rom. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped
and
served created things rather than the Creator =8B who is forever
praised.
Amen.
Nowhere in this passage is there a reference to homosexual intercourse.
"the degrading of their bodies with one another", "sexual impurity",
and "sinful desires" refers to any sexual activity that doesn't result
in a baby. Look into medieval interpretations of the Bible and European
mores on heterosexual relations circa 1300ish through 1910ish, John. In
any case, the passage focuses not on homosexual behaviour, *at all,*
but rather on the fact that the people in question turned their backs
on God and worshiped "created things," so He left them to give in to
their desires - whatever those desires may have been - without prudence
or restraint. Feel free to drag out Romans 1:26-27, though, if you want
to really get into it.
<big snip>
John, for us proud non-Christians, who somehow miraculously still
manage to lead happy and productive lives based on strong moral values
and ethics, hauling out the Bible and saying, "SEE!!! God said not
to!", especially when even that claim is easily refuted, is a very
*very* weak argument. Tell me what actual crimes against humanity and
the Earth you think homosexuals are committing, not simply that they
commit (unnamed) sins and that they need the grace of God to save them.
Melania
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Melania" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
01 Feb 2005 08:39:19 PM |
|
|
John wrote:
NO you are doing an "isegesis" on this passage 1 Cor 6:9-10 and
making
it sound what you wnat it to sound like.
The bible says this about what you are doing.
2Pet. 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in
them
of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to
understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do
the
other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
For those who are interested, "He" in this passage is Paul. John is
quoting verbatim the CEV of the Holy Bible. See John's leap of logic
regarding Paul's letter to the Romans, below.
Why do you distort the word to make it sound like what you want it to
sound like?
Why do you? Because that's what you're doing in your discussion of
Romans 1:21-25, below.
Btw, the passage speaks only of men who lie with men. What
about lesbians then? The bible is silent on that front.
No it is not silent. It speaks clearly that they will not inherit
the
kingdom of God living in their sin. How hard is it to understand?
Obviously they need grace and someone to love them, which is what we
should do!!
Oh, I missed the part in the Bible where it says, "decide for yourself
what sin is and then tell other people that they don't get to go to
heaven for it."
<snip>
It seems that in the passages
you cite, these are as bad as homosexual sex.
NO they are not. When you are homosexual there are many other sins
that
you are also committing.
What are these many other sins of which you speak? Name them.
Romans has some advice about homosexuality.
Rom. 1:21 =B6 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him
as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and
their
foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Rom. 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom. 1:24 =B6 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of
their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one
another.
Rom. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped
and
served created things rather than the Creator =8B who is forever
praised.
Amen.
Nowhere in this passage is there a reference to homosexual intercourse.
"the degrading of their bodies with one another", "sexual impurity",
and "sinful desires" refers to any sexual activity that doesn't result
in a baby. Look into medieval interpretations of the Bible and European
mores on heterosexual relations circa 1300ish through 1910ish, John. In
any case, the passage focuses not on homosexual behaviour, *at all,*
but rather on the fact that the people in question turned their backs
on God and worshiped "created things," so He left them to give in to
their desires - whatever those desires may have been - without prudence
or restraint. Feel free to drag out Romans 1:26-27, though, if you want
to really get into it.
<big snip>
John, for us proud non-Christians, who somehow miraculously still
manage to lead happy and productive lives based on strong moral values
and ethics, hauling out the Bible and saying, "SEE!!! God said not
to!", especially when even that claim is easily refuted, is a very
*very* weak argument. Tell me what actual crimes against humanity and
the Earth you think homosexuals are committing, not simply that they
commit (unnamed) sins and that they need the grace of God to save them.
Melania
.
|
|
|
| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 08:47:39 AM |
|
|
1) What do you say about Sodom and
Gomorrah and the homoexuals there?
John
Nowhere in this passage is there a reference to homosexual intercourse.
"the degrading of their bodies with one another", "sexual impurity",
and "sinful desires" refers to any sexual activity that doesn't result
in a baby. Look into medieval interpretations of the Bible and European
mores on heterosexual relations circa 1300ish through 1910ish, John. In
any case, the passage focuses not on homosexual behaviour, *at all,*
but rather on the fact that the people in question turned their backs
on God and worshiped "created things," so He left them to give in to
their desires - whatever those desires may have been - without prudence
or restraint. Feel free to drag out Romans 1:26-27, though, if you want
to really get into it.
<big snip>
John, for us proud non-Christians, who somehow miraculously still
manage to lead happy and productive lives based on strong moral values
and ethics, hauling out the Bible and saying, "SEE!!! God said not
to!", especially when even that claim is easily refuted, is a very
*very* weak argument. Tell me what actual crimes against humanity and
the Earth you think homosexuals are committing, not simply that they
commit (unnamed) sins and that they need the grace of God to save them.
Melania
.
|
|
|
| User: "dragonlady" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 10:21:54 AM |
|
|
In article <1107355658.5aedd8b3c157b29dca144b5ec5a5e0b3@teranews>,
John <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote:
1) What do you say about Sodom and
Gomorrah and the homoexuals there?
John
Read the whole story.
They were not chastized for same sex sex. They were chastized for
wanting to rape the visitors.
And the "one righteous man" offered his daughters to them to rape
instead, thus saving the heavenly visitors from such an offense.
Then, he and his daughters lived alone in a cave -- and they both ended
up pregnant. This "righteous man" explained that it wasn't HIS fault
that he had sex with his daughters: they got him drunk and did it
against his will.
Lovely story, that.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
.
|
|
|
| User: "Greegor" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 04:53:55 PM |
|
|
Actually, there was at least one and possible more
COURT CASES where Child Protection used a bible
story like LOTT and his daughters to say that
a RELIGIOUS FAMILY was therefore at high risk
of sexual abuse!
Did ya get that? Caseworkers actually argued that
being religious makes you a child molestor.
In court.
Why are there so many ATHEIST caseworkers
in Child Protection? Allowed to foist THAT agenda!
(As bad as Curio Jones, the mental case
caseworker for YEARS and thought
EVERYTHING was satanic child abuse!
She since made the news for stalking two different
hollywood movie people, one for "projecting thoughts".)
Did you ever notice that caseworkers order
psych evals on family members CONSTANTLY
and yet nobody ever checks THEIR psychology out?
(Curio Jones didn't have a "sudden onset" of
her mental condition!)
It would be bad enough that this is sort of like
"vacuuming for dirt" especially when they
have a fraudulent or LAME case, but they
have a HABIT of passing unproven ""information""
INTO the psych ""evaluation"".
Collateral information they call it.
Families might call it witness tampering.
Or more severe types of CORRUPTION.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Melania" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 07:04:30 PM |
|
|
Greegor wrote:
Actually, there was at least one and possible more
COURT CASES where Child Protection used a bible
story like LOTT and his daughters to say that
a RELIGIOUS FAMILY was therefore at high risk
of sexual abuse!
Did ya get that? Caseworkers actually argued that
being religious makes you a child molestor.
In court.
Why are there so many ATHEIST caseworkers
in Child Protection? Allowed to foist THAT agenda!
(As bad as Curio Jones, the mental case
caseworker for YEARS and thought
EVERYTHING was satanic child abuse!
She since made the news for stalking two different
hollywood movie people, one for "projecting thoughts".)
Did you ever notice that caseworkers order
psych evals on family members CONSTANTLY
and yet nobody ever checks THEIR psychology out?
(Curio Jones didn't have a "sudden onset" of
her mental condition!)
It would be bad enough that this is sort of like
"vacuuming for dirt" especially when they
have a fraudulent or LAME case, but they
have a HABIT of passing unproven ""information""
INTO the psych ""evaluation"".
Collateral information they call it.
Families might call it witness tampering.
Or more severe types of CORRUPTION.
Greegor, seriously, STOP YELLING at us.
Melania
.
|
|
|
| User: "Greegor" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
03 Feb 2005 05:16:49 PM |
|
|
ROFL!
Stick around and Kane will expand your obscene vocabulary!
I will try to cut back on the emphasis. Thanks.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "lenny fackler" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 09:44:50 AM |
|
|
John wrote:
1) What do you say about Sodom and
Gomorrah and the homoexuals there?
John
I think God overreacted a bit.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Melania" |
|
| Title: Re: Perverts try to indoctrinate kids |
02 Feb 2005 10:22:31 AM |
|
|
Question: What do you say about Sodom and Gomorrah and the homoexuals
there?
Answer: I say, a) whether or not they were homosexuals generally, their
goal as explained in some versions of Genesis 19 was to rape the angels
sent by God, as a violent act of defiance against the Lord. Men raping
other men as an act of war, or to degrade them, should not be confused
with a homosexual orientation, and should indeed be condemned in the
same way that *any* rape should be. Many have argued that "know" as it
was originally translated into English (King James Version) in this
context actually means they wanted to interrogate the angels, since
they were strangers in the town, but given that Lot offers up his
daughters as a peace offering (a charming move), I think we can agree
that this is not a very accurate interpretation. His daughters were,
however, both engaged to (straight) men from Sodom, and it is far more
reasonable to assume that a mob of angry straight men wanted to rape
the angels in order to insult and defile them (a common technique for
humiliating the enemy) than it is to assume all the men in Sodom were
gay and wanted to make love to the strangers.
b) Relying on the account of God's destruction of Sodom (which just
means "burnt"), Gomorrah (which just means "ruined heap"), Admah and
Zeboim to condemn consentual homosexual practices is no different from
relying upon Leviticus to justify slavery, or condemning others for
eating shellfish. Leviticus also prohibits the cross-breeding of
animals, wearing garments of blended fabrics, and cutting the hair
around your temples. There are many places in the Old Testament where
God ostensibly orders that people be burned alive or stoned to death
for relatively minor offences (things that aren't even considered sins
in today's world), and yet God appears to have felt that it was
perfectly all right for a man to rape a woman, as long as he paid her
father 50 silver shekels and married her afterwards (presumably
facilitating a lifetime of rape), as stipulated in Deuteronomy
22:28-29. Do you believe all these passages at face value? I doubt it.
I hope not.
I don't seriously think I'll change your mind. You have a clear
conviction here. However, I am certain beyond shadow of a doubt that
almost all Christians who believe a recent translation of a document
that has been translated and reworked and censored and retranslated
innumerable times over two thousand years is the pure word of God
actually only believe that in regard to certain passages. They ignore
or gloss over any others that are actually difficult to interpret or
understand. I believe this kind of unwillingness to use the analytical
skills God gave you is what Peter was really talking about when he said
Paul's letters were hard to understand. This selective interpretation
is as great a manipulation of the text as anything those of us who
believe the Bible *should* be interpreted do, and I think we're a lot
more honest with ourselves about it.
I've said my peace, I'm done with the discussion.
Melania
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
