Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll?



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "James"
Date: 09 Jun 2005 03:15:39 PM
Object: Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll?

pluto@quentincrisp.com wrote:
Pastor Dave and I are having a discussion that started when another
alleged man of the cloth insinuated that all gays are child molesters.
I didn't want to lose the thread so I'll break it out here.

I've always wondered why so many "Christians" can ignore half of
Leviticus while virulently attacking gay people with the other.
Here's the gist of that argument:

I've got no respect whatsoever for "religious" people who
selectively


go after gays. (You know, like picking that little quote out of
Leviticus while ignoring the one about shellfish, or women going
into 5-day seclusion when they menstruate.)


Here's Pastor Dave's response:

Your ignorance is obvious. You are equating ritual
laws with moral laws.


This confuses me. Leviticus isn't divided into a Ritual section and a
Moral section: it is, essentially, a long list of forbidden tasks,
with no differentiation between them. So I posted this:

---------

In [one Biblical quote], the LORD tells Moses, in no uncertain terms,
that it's a sin to eat pork, or in fact TOUCH LEATHER.

In the second [Biblical quote], the Lord tells Moses that
homosexuality is an abomination.

Now, clear this up for me. The first can be ignored -- though it's
the word of GOD -- because you've deigned it a "ritual law"? But the
second is a "moral law," so gays have to be attacked at every
opportunity?

This seems pretty far-fetched to me, considering the two proclamations
are made in the SAME CONVERSATION, in the SAME MANNER, just PAGES
APART.

---------------

Dave's response was something of a repetition:

You seem to be missing the point, which was made.
You ignorantly equates ritual law with moral law. Of
course you ignored that. That is who you are.


Now, is this a real point, or just BS? As I say, there's absolutely
no difference in the wording of these declarations, and no reference
to "ritual" whatsoever. How can one be deemed "ritual law" and
written off?

To me it just sounds like rather than logic, somebody started at the
end -- that everything in the Bible must be true, since it's the word
of God -- and invented a simplistic, illogical explanation to ignore
the half that's preposterous.

Hello,
The book of Leviticus contains Laws given to the ancient nation of
Israel. Yes, it had many prohibitions, including that of homosexuality
and bestiality etc. But Christians today are no longer under those
Mosaic Laws given to the ancient nation of Israel. As one Bible writer
put it at Ro 7:6,
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from
the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the
old way of the written code." (NIV)
And at Co 2:14
"having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was
against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it
to the cross." (NIV)
So does that mean that Christians are then free of all of those
commands mentioned in Leviticus, etc? Only if they were not reiterated
in the Christian Bible writings. (New Testament)
Since those menstruation commands were not reestablished for
Christians, then Christian woman are not under them today. Since
dietary commands were not reestablished for Christians, then
Christians can eat what they want. But the prohibition against
homosexuality was reestablished for Christians.
For example, Ro 1:26,27,
"26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men
likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with
passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." (RSV)
And also notice 1 Co 6:9-11,
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor
thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But
you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name
of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (NIV)
Thus God has not changed the situation on how He feels about the
homosexual lifestyle. But all is not lost for those who have such
feelings and want to still serve God. Notice again verse 11 of the
above Scripture:
"11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were
sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
and by the Spirit of our God." (NIV)
Yes, according to the Bible (not men), homosexuals CAN CHANGE their
lifestyle to one pleasing to God. It is not impossible as many seem to
claim today. True, it would not be easy for those who developed such
passions, but with God's help, it can be done. Or as Jesus put it:
"...with God all things are possible." (Mt 19:26; NWT)
Sincerely, James
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
.

User: "cdnbud"

Title: Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll? 09 Jun 2005 01:21:28 PM
Concerning leather...
2 Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a
girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.
...the larger point is that the laws were written for the Jews. I am not a
jew. The apostals had the same issue in the book of acts. the issue was....
Should we ... the jewish apostals... force the gentiles to live by our
jewish laws....
the came up with this solution found in Acts...
Acts 15: 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from
among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that
they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things
strangled, and from blood.
they then wrote a letter to all the gentile churches that read thusly...
Acts 15:23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and
elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the
Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard,
that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting
your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we
gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one
accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same
things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain
from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and
from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare
ye well.
Homosexuality falls under the catagory of fornication. It is forbidden.
period.
-cdnbud
"Blame it on the Baptists"
.

User: "cdnbud"

Title: Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll? 10 Jun 2005 11:26:28 AM
Concerning leather...
2 Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a
girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.
...the larger point is that the laws were written for the Jews. I am not a
jew. The apostals had the same issue in the book of acts. the issue was....
Should we ... the jewish apostals... force the gentiles to live by our
jewish laws....
the came up with this solution found in Acts...
Acts 15: 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from
among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that
they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things
strangled, and from blood.
they then wrote a letter to all the gentile churches that read thusly...
Acts 15:23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and
elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the
Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24Forasmuch as we have heard,
that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting
your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we
gave no such commandment: 25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one
accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same
things by mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain
from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and
from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare
ye well.
Homosexuality falls under the catagory of fornication. It is forbidden.
period.
-cdnbud
"Blame it on the Baptists"
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll? 10 Jun 2005 10:23:20 AM
Hey, guys, thanks for the reply. I appreciate the thought you've put
into it, and the fact that you've got actual intelligence in there.
I know absolutely nothing about the Bible, so pardon my ignorance.
You're saying that somewhere in the New Testament, somebody said we
should ignore the entire Old Testament? (Except, of course, for the
restrictions reiterated later in the New Testament.)
This strikes me as somewhat ridiculous. The Old Testament is the word
of God, right? And even if it weren't, what right do other men have to
say that it's *their* laws that should be followed, and not the earlier
crap that other guys wrote?
.
User: "Pastor Dave"

Title: Re: Question about Leviticus, or Is Pastor Dave a troll? 10 Jun 2005 12:57:03 PM
On 10 Jun 2005 08:23:20 -0700,

spake thusly:

Hey, guys, thanks for the reply. I appreciate the thought you've put
into it, and the fact that you've got actual intelligence in there.

I know absolutely nothing about the Bible, so pardon my ignorance.
You're saying that somewhere in the New Testament, somebody said we
should ignore the entire Old Testament? (Except, of course, for the
restrictions reiterated later in the New Testament.)

Nowhere does it say to ignore the OT. That would be
foolish and one cannot understand the NT, without
reading the OT. What is true, is that Christians are
not under the penalty of the Law, but under grace.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This strikes me as somewhat ridiculous. The Old Testament is the word
of God, right? And even if it weren't, what right do other men have to
say that it's *their* laws that should be followed, and not the earlier
crap that other guys wrote?

Christians should always seek to follow the moral codes
laid out in the entire Bible.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
What we are not bound to do, is to follow ritual laws,
etc., such as holidays, etc..
Colossians 2:13-17
13) And you, being dead in your sins
and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath he quickened together with him,
having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of
ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took
it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities
and powers, he made a show of them
openly, triumphing over them in it.
16) Let no man therefore judge you
in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
a holy day, or of the new moon, or
of the sabbath days:
17) Which are a shadow of things
to come; but the body is of Christ.
The Sabbath was a shadow of the rest
we would have in Christ and have now.
Hope this helps. :)
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.



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