| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Frank" |
| Date: |
24 Jan 2005 07:40:29 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Question from weak Christian |
"Pete Hwr" <commonsensenow@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7mdnRBo-POaW27cRVn-pg@comcast.com...
I was raised Christian but one doubt keeps plaguing me. WHat does the new
New Testament say will happen to the souls of people who died BEFORE they
heard Christ's message? Millions of people lived and died on the earth
before Christ performed his ministry.
If the gospels say that the only way to reach the Father is through the
son
(by having faith in Jesus) then did all those ancient people end up in
Hell
just because they were born too early?
I know this might sound childishly simlistic, but it bothers me. Any
replies pleasepost to this group. My email is not working.
vty
PeterHauer
You already know the answer, but you interpret exclusively (in brackets)
instead of inclusively. The "son" is anyone who believes in His Father who
is in heaven and such believers were around long before Christ appeared.
Christ is the only BEGOTTEN son of God, meaning He was God incarnate. See
below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
24 Jan 2005 08:58:22 PM |
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In article <1106602630.5e3aa315db7c9d9663eb17b7ab00eb80@teranews>,
PF@christfirst.com says...
"Pete Hwr" <commonsensenow@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7mdnRBo-POaW27cRVn-pg@comcast.com...
I was raised Christian but one doubt keeps plaguing me. WHat does the new
New Testament say will happen to the souls of people who died BEFORE they
heard Christ's message? Millions of people lived and died on the earth
before Christ performed his ministry.
If the gospels say that the only way to reach the Father is through the
son
(by having faith in Jesus) then did all those ancient people end up in
Hell
just because they were born too early?
I know this might sound childishly simlistic, but it bothers me. Any
replies pleasepost to this group. My email is not working.
vty
PeterHauer
You already know the answer, but you interpret exclusively (in brackets)
instead of inclusively. The "son" is anyone who believes in His Father who
is in heaven and such believers were around long before Christ appeared.
Christ is the only BEGOTTEN son of God, meaning He was God incarnate. See
below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
That is a very good question raised, by the original poster.
Logic and reason = truth.
If you give a very long explanation for a roundabout answer,
that seems hardly truthful? Does it?
The christian view and the bible does not answer the many questions
that are asked. They/it are not the answer.
Harvey
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
25 Jan 2005 03:46:26 PM |
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"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:iBiJd.11292$mo2.865156@news.xtra.co.nz...
In article <1106602630.5e3aa315db7c9d9663eb17b7ab00eb80@teranews>,
PF@christfirst.com says...
That is a very good question raised, by the original poster.
Logic and reason = truth.
Logic and reason are NOT God and therefore are not the ultimate
reference for truth. Our "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ. We all know, that love is not a matter of logic
and reason. Love is far more akin to art.
If you give a very long explanation for a roundabout answer,
that seems hardly truthful? Does it?
Jesus never spoke other than in parables, and anyone who makes an
equation out of love and caring is an insensitive dolt.
The christian view and the bible does not answer the many questions
that are asked. They/it are not the answer.
Your questions are not answered because you look for logic and reason,
not for any answer that satisfies. To satisfy, an answer must touch you
emotionally and Christ spoke to people's emotions, for He knew, that people
will do what they feel like, not what logic and reason dictates. Change how
people feel and you change how they act. Jesus is therefore about ideals of
empathy, about being humane, loving and caring.
Pastor Frank
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
Jesus in Matthew. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye
for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (Exodus 21:23-24)
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for
he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
---------------------
His teaching is a humongous step up from Judaism's Exodus 21:23-24
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
stripe for stripe."
.
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| User: "NoSpamAllowed NoSpamAllowed" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
25 Jan 2005 06:16:20 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:46:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:iBiJd.11292$mo2.865156@news.xtra.co.nz...
In article <1106602630.5e3aa315db7c9d9663eb17b7ab00eb80@teranews>,
PF@christfirst.com says...
That is a very good question raised, by the original poster.
Logic and reason = truth.
Logic and reason are NOT God and therefore are not the ultimate
reference for truth.
Frank admits a belief in God is not reasonable.
He is gonna burn long and hard for that one!
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of
the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to
drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a
parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have
to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for
lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
------------------------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "Your Name Here=Harvey" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
25 Jan 2005 06:52:52 PM |
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In article <t8odv0ddu22t8vlhsrc954t6evc4ki79rm@4ax.com>, NoSpamAllowed says...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:46:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:
"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:iBiJd.11292$mo2.865156@news.xtra.co.nz...
In article <1106602630.5e3aa315db7c9d9663eb17b7ab00eb80@teranews>,
PF@christfirst.com says...
That is a very good question raised, by the original poster.
Logic and reason = truth.
Logic and reason are NOT God and therefore are not the ultimate
reference for truth.
Frank admits a belief in God is not reasonable.
He is gonna burn long and hard for that one!
Logic and reason is part and parcel of 'god' in whatever sense you care
to categorise god. I go along with the truthfulness - that there is no 'god'
especially that of the god of the bible/old testament etc.
That that god is the figment of the writer(s) imagination.
I am leaning more and more to 'the creation' aspect - in which god does
not appear at all, but loosely someone may think that the creation is god.
What is truthful - reinforces other truths.
And if the source of your information is true and correct --- then all other
information from the same source, must also be correct. If any aspect is
shown to be wrong and incorrect, therefore all other information is also
suspect.
This is where the bible and christianity falls down. And the other 2
religions similar to these. To believe in the bible and christianity,
you have to throw out logic and reason, and park your brain in the
permanently 'park' position.
That is why many people cannot accept the bible and christianity/etc.
There are too many inconsistancies, and too many questions remaining
unanswered satisfactorily.
Harvey
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
26 Jan 2005 11:39:21 AM |
|
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"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:ERBJd.11641$mo2.893678@news.xtra.co.nz...
In article <t8odv0ddu22t8vlhsrc954t6evc4ki79rm@4ax.com>, NoSpamAllowed
says...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:46:26 +0800, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:
"Your Name Here=Harvey" <kiwi@ing.notin.aus> wrote in message
news:iBiJd.11292$mo2.865156@news.xtra.co.nz...
In article <1106602630.5e3aa315db7c9d9663eb17b7ab00eb80@teranews>,
PF@christfirst.com says...
That is a very good question raised, by the original poster.
Logic and reason = truth.
Logic and reason are NOT God and therefore are not the ultimate
reference for truth.
Frank admits a belief in God is not reasonable.
He is gonna burn long and hard for that one!
Logic and reason is part and parcel of 'god' in whatever sense you care
to categorise god. I go along with the truthfulness - that there is no
'god'
especially that of the god of the bible/old testament etc.
That that god is the figment of the writer(s) imagination.
I am leaning more and more to 'the creation' aspect - in which god does
not appear at all, but loosely someone may think that the creation is god.
What is truthful - reinforces other truths.
And if the source of your information is true and correct --- then all
other
information from the same source, must also be correct. If any aspect is
shown to be wrong and incorrect, therefore all other information is also
suspect.
This is where the bible and christianity falls down. And the other 2
religions similar to these. To believe in the bible and christianity,
you have to throw out logic and reason, and park your brain in the
permanently 'park' position.
That is why many people cannot accept the bible and christianity/etc.
There are too many inconsistancies, and too many questions remaining
unanswered satisfactorily.
Seen from your premise which discounts Christ, this may be true, but you
are posting to Christian NGs where the ultimate reference of the belief
system must be Christ.
The God of Jesus appears to be a quality (Spirit), such as love (1 John
4:8,16) which becomes visible through Christ and all who are God's sons, as
per Biblical reference below. However the strawman god of atheists appears
to be an invisible yet powerful hairy warrior in the sky, a la Zeus of Odin,
who obviously doesn't exist.
It's up to you to make the choice. We made OUR choice for Christ and His
God. Join us and live!!!
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
24 Jan 2005 11:24:02 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pete Hwr" <commonsensenow@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7mdnRBo-POaW27cRVn-pg@comcast.com...
I was raised Christian but one doubt keeps plaguing me. WHat does the new
New Testament say will happen to the souls of people who died BEFORE they
heard Christ's message? Millions of people lived and died on the earth
before Christ performed his ministry.
If the gospels say that the only way to reach the Father is through the
son
(by having faith in Jesus) then did all those ancient people end up in
Hell
just because they were born too early?
I know this might sound childishly simlistic,
YOU said it. Have you not concerned yourself with the thousands of other
religions, some current, some long since forgotten, along with all their gods?
The Jesus story is a myth just as are the others just mentioned.
The soul is a nebulous word used by religionists to bolster their claim on
other people. If you can define a 'soul' I will try to help you solve your
problem.
As for Hell that is another myth of religionists, no such place anymore than
there is a heaven. We have the here and now, enjoy it to the full by being
decent to other people and enjoy the way they are decent back to you. Some
views on Heaven and Hell are given below.
I think this should be a little more comprehensible than Frank's rather vague
reply! LOL
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Hong kong
"Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you in
his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly."
[Victor Hugo]
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the 'delights' of
heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches it.
[John Hachmann]
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a
will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who
should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension; such notions are for the fears
or absurd egoism of feeble souls."
[Albert Einstein]
but it bothers me. Any
replies pleasepost to this group. My email is not working.
vty
PeterHauer
You already know the answer, but you interpret exclusively (in brackets)
instead of inclusively. The "son" is anyone who believes in His Father who
is in heaven and such believers were around long before Christ appeared.
Christ is the only BEGOTTEN son of God, meaning He was God incarnate. See
below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
25 Jan 2005 04:14:27 PM |
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|
Bob, I keep telling you: Post your atheism to atheist NGs and stay out
of our Christian NGs already, willya? I will post you over to some.
---------------------
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41F5D7F2.A6BBF014@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pete Hwr" <commonsensenow@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7mdnRBo-POaW27cRVn-pg@comcast.com...
I was raised Christian but one doubt keeps plaguing me. WHat does the
new
New Testament say will happen to the souls of people who died BEFORE
they
heard Christ's message? Millions of people lived and died on the
earth
before Christ performed his ministry.
If the gospels say that the only way to reach the Father is through
the
son
(by having faith in Jesus) then did all those ancient people end up in
Hell
just because they were born too early?
I know this might sound childishly simlistic,
YOU said it. Have you not concerned yourself with the thousands of other
religions, some current, some long since forgotten, along with all their
gods?
The Jesus story is a myth just as are the others just mentioned.
The soul is a nebulous word used by religionists to bolster their claim on
other people. If you can define a 'soul' I will try to help you solve
your
problem.
As for Hell that is another myth of religionists, no such place anymore
than
there is a heaven. We have the here and now, enjoy it to the full by
being
decent to other people and enjoy the way they are decent back to you.
Some
views on Heaven and Hell are given below.
I think this should be a little more comprehensible than Frank's rather
vague
reply! LOL
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Hong kong
"Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you
in
his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly."
[Victor Hugo]
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of
heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches it.
[John Hachmann]
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has
a
will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who
should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension; such notions are for the
fears
or absurd egoism of feeble souls."
[Albert Einstein]
but it bothers me. Any
replies pleasepost to this group. My email is not working.
vty
PeterHauer
You already know the answer, but you interpret exclusively (in
brackets)
instead of inclusively. The "son" is anyone who believes in His Father
who
is in heaven and such believers were around long before Christ appeared.
Christ is the only BEGOTTEN son of God, meaning He was God incarnate.
See
below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for
ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye
shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the
servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon
us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
|
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| User: "Pope Rudraigh" |
|
| Title: Re: Question from weak Christian |
25 Jan 2005 11:58:23 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:14:27 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
Bob, I keep telling you: Post your atheism to atheist NGs and stay out
of our Christian NGs already, willya? I will post you over to some.
Do you really think this does anything other than make you look like
more of an ***** than you already do?
---------------------
"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:41F5D7F2.A6BBF014@netvigator.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pete Hwr" <commonsensenow@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J7mdnRBo-POaW27cRVn-pg@comcast.com...
I was raised Christian but one doubt keeps plaguing me. WHat does the
new
New Testament say will happen to the souls of people who died BEFORE
they
heard Christ's message? Millions of people lived and died on the
earth
before Christ performed his ministry.
If the gospels say that the only way to reach the Father is through
the
son
(by having faith in Jesus) then did all those ancient people end up in
Hell
just because they were born too early?
I know this might sound childishly simlistic,
YOU said it. Have you not concerned yourself with the thousands of other
religions, some current, some long since forgotten, along with all their
gods?
The Jesus story is a myth just as are the others just mentioned.
The soul is a nebulous word used by religionists to bolster their claim on
other people. If you can define a 'soul' I will try to help you solve
your
problem.
As for Hell that is another myth of religionists, no such place anymore
than
there is a heaven. We have the here and now, enjoy it to the full by
being
decent to other people and enjoy the way they are decent back to you.
Some
views on Heaven and Hell are given below.
I think this should be a little more comprehensible than Frank's rather
vague
reply! LOL
Bob
Humanist Brit.
Hong kong
"Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you
in
his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly."
[Victor Hugo]
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of
heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches it.
[John Hachmann]
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has
a
will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who
should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension; such notions are for the
fears
or absurd egoism of feeble souls."
[Albert Einstein]
but it bothers me. Any
replies pleasepost to this group. My email is not working.
vty
PeterHauer
You already know the answer, but you interpret exclusively (in
brackets)
instead of inclusively. The "son" is anyone who believes in His Father
who
is in heaven and such believers were around long before Christ appeared.
Christ is the only BEGOTTEN son of God, meaning He was God incarnate.
See
below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for
ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye
shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the
servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon
us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet
appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be
like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
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