Re: |Re: Parenting Suggestions-

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Frank"
Date:	14 Nov 2004 03:47:41 AM
Object:	Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps
is a wonderful website. Not all Christians do aggree with assaulting
children and calling it love. There are many fundamentalist, born-again
Christians that hitting or hurting children in any way in the name of
discipline. These individuals are becoming more vocal and their numbers
are growing.

Getting a swat occasionally is every kid's right. It's not a matter of
hurting the child. Just watch a mother cat swat her kitten when she had
enough of the kitten's rambunctiousness. She does NOT hurt her kitten. I
have yet to see a child grow up normally if it didn't meet some physical
resistance to childish rambunctiousness and/or aggression against siblings
etc. A child hitting a younger sibling doesn't understand why he should not
do that, until he gets hit with the same force he uses. Children seldom use
enough force on other children to leave a mark.
The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale injuries,
which indicate that the disciplining has gone too far. If the parent
apologizes to the child on discovering he has over-disciplined, the child
learns a valuable lesson on how to behave, when he himself loses control in
his dealings with others. Naturally a parent should not strike in anger, but
be cool and in control of self.
However, the psychological damage to a child who never meets a physical
limit to his aggressions or horsing around is incalculable, for then the
only sign of having gone too far, is seeing people avoid him, and making him
feel disliked if not untrustworthy to be left alone with younger children. A
child is not equipped to deal with that kind of rejection, and if asked
would much rather have a well-deserved swat, followed by a comforting hug
any day. Actually why not ask your kid? You will be surprised.
Pastor Frank
LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command...
Jesus in John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the
one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will
love him and show myself to him." He who does not love me will not obey my
teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who
sent me."
Jesus in Mt:7:21-23: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it
does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it
is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight
in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts,
always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
1 John 4:7-13 (KJV) "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of
God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that
loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the
love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into
the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we
loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for
our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth
in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in
him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."
.

User: "kane"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Nov 2004 12:37:13 PM

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Getting a swat occasionally is every kid's right.

You are fantasizing.

It's not a matter of
hurting the child.

Then you haven't "swatted" them. The argument put forward here by
others with your sentiment is that the pain is the deterent and
motivator. Your logic, as well as your ethic is flawed.

Just watch a mother cat swat her kitten when she had
enough of the kitten's rambunctiousness.

Given that cat's have no verbal language, a brain the size of a
walnut, and the morals they often exhibit, with a total incapacity to
reason abstractly, your argument again matches your ethics.

She does NOT hurt her kitten.

She usually retracts her claws fully. Sadly far too many parents fail
to do so and injure their child physically and emotionally. A cat's
life is filled with practice for killing. It may well be that the
swatting by the mother is simply part of the evolutionary need to
trigger the cats first forays into death dealing.

I
have yet to see a child grow up normally if it didn't meet some physical
resistance to childish rambunctiousness and/or aggression against siblings
etc.

We are deeply sorrowed, and alarmed, at your depravation. I have seen
literally hundreds so raised that do not participate in the vicious
sick behavior that so many spanked children grow up to impose on
society and the world.

A child hitting a younger sibling doesn't understand why he should not
do that, until he gets hit with the same force he uses. Children seldom use
enough force on other children to leave a mark.

If she is too young to understand why then he is also to young to
understand why he or she was hit by his or her teacher and protector.

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale injuries,
which indicate that the disciplining has gone too far.

In other words find some way to inflict pain but leave no surface
marks to avoid being caught. Yes, I've heard of this. Internal
injuries can be even more devastating and leave long term ailments and
trauma, some for life.

If the parent
apologizes to the child on discovering he has over-disciplined, the child
learns a valuable lesson on how to behave,

How to be a hypocrit? Rather than a gentle teacher who doesn't use
pain on those he's charged to protect?

when he himself loses control in
his dealings with others.

Which, from my own experience, that'll I'll match yours with any day,
happens exceedingly rarely with children raised with gentleness and
supportive teaching.

Naturally a parent should not strike in anger, but
be cool and in control of self.

The most dangerous of hypocrits. The Nazi torturers and murderers were
said to proceed with their deeds in just such a way...without emotion,
and recording their act meticulously to justify and legitimize them as
necessary...just as you are doing now.

However, the psychological damage to a child who never meets a physical
limit to his aggressions or horsing around is incalculable,

Bull. There are many way sto intervene in such circumstances that not
only do not require physical assault, but work far better. In fact
spanking doesn't work at all, except in the short term, just a as a
jolt of electricity might stop your heart for a moment ... or
perchance kill you.

for then the
only sign of having gone too far, is seeing people avoid him, and making him
feel disliked if not untrustworthy to be left alone with younger children.

Your logic again fails. And it does on the phrase "only sign of having
gone to far." What makes you think there is only ONE sign? You build
your rationale for assault by a distortion of reality. When one does
something that displeases others there are myriad signs, and children
who have not had their natural ability to read others rendered
dysfunctional by fools such as you, are extreme good at reading the
most subtle of signs. I spent 600 hours viewing video of infants doing
just that.

A
child is not equipped to deal with that kind of rejection,

You aren't. That's why you are a spanker and defender of spanking. A
gently raised child knows when they have displeased others, as they
are superior readers of others, and they know exactly how to engage
the other, and are motivated to do so, in effective ways.....precisely
because of their normal development..instead of compensatory survival
reactivity forced on them by avoidance of pain..and living in fear of
pain at all times.

and if asked
would much rather have a well-deserved swat, followed by a comforting hug
any day. Actually why not ask your kid? You will be surprised.

If you are a pain compulsive parenter then your child will tell you
first what they believe you want to hear, not what they truly feel. If
you hadn't been warped by your own childhood shame and pain experience
you'd know immediately this argument of yours is fallacious to the
extreme.
My children, when they did something that I considered inappropriate
were met FIRST with a hug and comforting. Then they were offered
information on what behavior under the circumstance was more
appropriate, and civil.
I know hundreds of families that raise their children the same
way...and our children will in time take the world away from you
savages you pretend to Christian "love."
In which passage below do you find urging to strike a child to show
him or her "LOVE?"
Do you know and understand historically why "He" was crucified? As an
object lesson to the defeated and colonized jews by a vicous and
paternalistic Rome.
It is sad how the spanked turn out...logic impared and complelled to
perpetuate the same crippling disabilities on their young. Sadder
still is what it does to the world. But then, it won't be long now.
Tell us, we who don't spank but might if you could prove it more
effective than our methods, where is the exact line between abusive
and safe corporal punishement...so that one does NOT injure the child,
but still uses pain effectively to teach? How does a parent, in a
practical sense, know where this line is?
Kane

Pastor Frank

LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command...
Jesus in John 14:21-24 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the
one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will
love him and show myself to him." He who does not love me will not obey my
teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who
sent me."
Jesus in Mt:7:21-23: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it
does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it
is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight
in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts,
always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
1 John 4:7-13 (KJV) "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of
God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that
loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the
love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into
the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we
loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for
our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth
in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in
him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Nov 2004 05:12:58 PM

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale injuries,

Pastor Frank

Pastor frank you advocate child abuse, you're a evil person, I ve
always suspected that, now you have just confirmed it, so what you are
saying is it's OK to beat your child as long as they dont have any
visible injurys and no one suspects child abuse, you must be one of
those southern ont germanic mennonite jesus cults that advocate
beating their kids so they find jesus.
You're pathetic pastor fake. I should hunt you down and beat you
senseless just so you know what it feels like.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	01 Dec 2004 10:49:50 PM

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps
is a wonderful website. Not all Christians do aggree with assaulting
children and calling it love. There are many fundamentalist,
born-again
Christians that hitting or hurting children in any way in the name of
discipline. These individuals are becoming more vocal and their
numbers
are growing.

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Spanking your kids is not child abuse
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: Spanking isn't abuse: was Re: Parenting Suggestions-	16 Dec 2004 02:19:39 PM

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cpnv9f$7is$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

You say, "Spanking your kids is not child abuse" (see your post below)
Spanking involves raising one's hand and hitting a child, with or
without an implement, in the name of discipline.
In the US, striking anyone over the age of 18 for any reason other than
self-protection when there is no other alternative, is considered
assault and battery.

Stop top posting in News Groups!!!!!
No. The law is much more stringent than that. Mere touching anyone's
clothes can be considered assault, and if the part of clothing is near a
sexual part, it's considered sexual assault. That is why teachers of small
children are now afraid to help kids anymore with their winter clothing and
boots etc. for they might be accused of inapropriate touching the todd's bum
or chest. Even speaking to them can be dangerous to one's career and
reputation, as one could be accused of verbal assault.
There are legions of people making a good living out of finding and
prosecuting others for supposedly mishandling of children. Everyone involved
with children is in constant need of looking over their shoulders and be on
the lookout for these critics.
Is it any wonder, that everyone is now afraid of children, much like
doctors are of being alone with their patients, and teachers with their
pupils? It's time for the accusers themselves to be sued and pilloried for
ruining other people's careers and reputation, and unless there are
verifiable physical injuries to a child, judges should dismiss spurious
claims of assault and berate and fine the accuser for abusing the legal
system.
Pastor Frank
**First they came for the Communists; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Communist. Then they came for the Socialists; I didn't object, for I wasn't
a Socialist. Then they came for the Jews; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Jew. Then they came for the Gypsies, the homosexuals, mental defectives,
Jehovah Witnesses and all others they didn't like, and again I didn't
object, for I was none of these, or so I thought.
Finally they came for me, - by then there was no one left to object.**
(Martin Niem�ller, German Pastor, who survived the
Konzentrationslager of Sachsenhausen and Dachau).
.

User: "Aaron"
Title: Re: Spanking isn't abuse: was Re: Parenting Suggestions-	17 Dec 2004 12:43:32 PM

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:19:39 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cpnv9f$7is$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Actually, threatening somone is assault.
Striking somone with the intent to do harm is battery
Restraining the victim makes it "agrivated _____."
Since a parent is not intending harn, but rather preventing harm,
spanking is no battery and it is certainly NOT child abuse.
In some States in the US, you can be arrested for child abuse for NOT
spanking a child. In the same States, you can usually be arrested for
spanking. So, either way you break the Law. You may as well follow
God's advice and spank you children, it will improve their chances of
staying out of jail.

No. The law is much more stringent than that. Mere touching anyone's
clothes can be considered assault, and if the part of clothing is near a
sexual part, it's considered sexual assault. That is why teachers of small
children are now afraid to help kids anymore with their winter clothing and
boots etc. for they might be accused of inapropriate touching the todd's bum
or chest. Even speaking to them can be dangerous to one's career and
reputation, as one could be accused of verbal assault.
There are legions of people making a good living out of finding and
prosecuting others for supposedly mishandling of children. Everyone involved
with children is in constant need of looking over their shoulders and be on
the lookout for these critics.
Is it any wonder, that everyone is now afraid of children, much like
doctors are of being alone with their patients, and teachers with their
pupils? It's time for the accusers themselves to be sued and pilloried for
ruining other people's careers and reputation, and unless there are
verifiable physical injuries to a child, judges should dismiss spurious
claims of assault and berate and fine the accuser for abusing the legal
system.

Pastor Frank

**First they came for the Communists; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Communist. Then they came for the Socialists; I didn't object, for I wasn't
a Socialist. Then they came for the Jews; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Jew. Then they came for the Gypsies, the homosexuals, mental defectives,
Jehovah Witnesses and all others they didn't like, and again I didn't
object, for I was none of these, or so I thought.
Finally they came for me, - by then there was no one left to object.**
(Martin Niemöller, German Pastor, who survived the
Konzentrationslager of Sachsenhausen and Dachau).

User: "xeno"
Title: The Zeal of Pastor Frank	17 Dec 2004 08:19:50 AM

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004, Pastor Frank wrote:

It's time for the accusers themselves to be sued and pilloried for
ruining other people's careers and reputation, and unless there are
verifiable physical injuries to a child,

Haven't gotten over the conviction or what?
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 02:15:11 PM

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10qt7ng3oo7uf8c@corp.supernews.com...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps
is a wonderful website. Not all Christians do aggree with assaulting
children and calling it love. There are many fundamentalist,
born-again
Christians that hitting or hurting children in any way in the name of
discipline. These individuals are becoming more vocal and their
numbers
are growing.

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

I am talking about spanking without leaving a mark. My child play fights
and hits others without leaving a mark, including me, but this above fanatic
wants to "hunt me down and beat me senseless" without leaving a mark. Well,
he is welcome to try, but if he bruises me, I will return the favour in
spades.
Btw Mennonites are against all violence and will rather die than harm
one hair on their enemy's head. They will not go to war, but I bet this
above extremist will.
Pastor Frank
The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ:
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
.

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	04 Dec 2004 06:42:09 PM

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<1102081134.261+hrv+UmJXG6uOkvrvmA@teranews>...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10qt7ng3oo7uf8c@corp.supernews.com...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps
is a wonderful website. Not all Christians do aggree with assaulting
children and calling it love. There are many fundamentalist,
born-again
Christians that hitting or hurting children in any way in the name of
discipline. These individuals are becoming more vocal and their
numbers
are growing.

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

pastor frank, If I use a tazer, you wont have any "bruises", and you
can use it on me too if you wish, I get off on it. I loved being
beaten by my old man, said he was doing it because Jesus told him. I
love Jesus and wish to emulate him, Jesus got off on being persecuted,
tortured and murdered in a most brutal fashion, its the only way to
find God you know.
remember pastor frank "blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the
Kingdom of God." thats why Gods angels here on earth are pillaging and
raping and mass murdering the poor peoples of this world, it's because
God loves us, its Gods way of making them better people you see, bomb
the hell out of them, kill them, maim them, make them suffer,
Hallelujah! isn't God great pastor fake? bombs away...
.

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 01:07:20 PM

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10qt7ng3oo7uf8c@corp.supernews.com>...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Pastor frank you advocate child abuse, you're a evil person,

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

Mr schizo, remember that when you get old and senile and the old age
home nurse swats you for urinating on your bed sheets, and stuffs the
jello pudding up your nose because you dont like the flavour.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 05:46:08 PM

Not the same thing.
"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0412021107.37530da0@posting.google.com...

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:<10qt7ng3oo7uf8c@corp.supernews.com>...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Pastor frank you advocate child abuse, you're a evil person,

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	04 Dec 2004 07:17:40 PM

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10qva9v6ges07fe@corp.supernews.com>...

Not the same thing.

yes it is, it's exactly the same thing, except your old and senile
instead of young and senile.

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0412021107.37530da0@posting.google.com...

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:<10qt7ng3oo7uf8c@corp.supernews.com>...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0411141512.20a8e8d3@posting.google.com...

"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<1100430269.pZ/2IiYt1pNMkUXU9AXDrA@teranews>...

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cn5utc$9t$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Kane,

Thank you for posting the websites below. Parenting In Jesus'
Footsteps

The right way to handle this is not to make parent fearful to be
physical with a their child, but to draw the line at any tell-tale
injuries,
Pastor Frank

Pastor frank you advocate child abuse, you're a evil person,

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	05 Dec 2004 10:05:45 AM

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0412041717.c6a308e@posting.google.com...

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:<10qva9v6ges07fe@corp.supernews.com>...

Not the same thing.

yes it is, it's exactly the same thing, except your old and senile
instead of young and senile.

Thank you "bluskie" you just blew your own argument, children aren't senile
<snipped old stuff>
.

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	05 Dec 2004 04:24:45 PM

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message news:<10r6cehkt6l0pf6@corp.supernews.com>...

"bluskie" <wildbluskies@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9dd1b95.0412041717.c6a308e@posting.google.com...

"Glenn $Christian Mystic$" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:<10qva9v6ges07fe@corp.supernews.com>...

Not the same thing.

yes it is, it's exactly the same thing, except your old and senile
instead of young and senile.

Thank you "bluskie" you just blew your own argument, children aren't senile

<snipped old stuff>

Your children are.
.

User: "xeno"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 01:32:58 AM

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

Spanking teaches little people that when you have the advantage, you
should inflict yourselves on other people to get your way.
.

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 02:25:45 PM

"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20041201232650.Y60366@synergy.transbay.net...

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

Spanking teaches little people that when you have the advantage, you
should inflict yourselves on other people to get your way.

Not spanking teaches little people, that they can inflict pain on others
without ever having to fear retaliation in kind from anyone. That's the way
to train guard dogs and soldiers. You must NEVER hurt them, so they will
attack absolutely fearlessly.
Pastor Frank
The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ:
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
.

User: "bluskie"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	04 Dec 2004 06:53:04 PM

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<1102081155.8jHq/lCsP7F1KJ/JG8Fj7Q@teranews>...

"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20041201232650.Y60366@synergy.transbay.net...

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

Spanking teaches little people that when you have the advantage, you
should inflict yourselves on other people to get your way.

so what you are saying pastor fake is that God should never spank
soldiers and dogs. Soldiers whom are the dogs of war are creating
suffering, maiming, and killing of innocents throughout the world
everyday, and this is a good thing? this is the will of God? God is a
MOFO pastor fake.
.

User: "xeno"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	03 Dec 2004 08:40:58 AM

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Pastor Frank wrote:

Spanking teaches little people that when you have the advantage, you
should inflict [yourself] on other people to get your way.

Not spanking teaches little people, that they can inflict pain on others
without ever having to fear retaliation in kind from anyone.

Instilling fear from others will not instill empathy towards others.
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	02 Dec 2004 05:45:10 PM

"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20041201232650.Y60366@synergy.transbay.net...

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

Spanking your kids is not child abuse

Spanking teaches little people that when you have the advantage, you
should inflict yourselves on other people to get your way.

Funny, that isn't what they taught me.
(Some of these *Spock Babies* don't realize is that some of us were raised
by the Biblical Standard, of the threat of a spanking)
What it teaches is respect
.

User: "Carlson LaVonne"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Dec 2004 06:38:44 PM

Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

(Some of these *Spock Babies* don't realize is that some of us were raised
by the Biblical Standard, of the threat of a spanking)

Did you know that Dr. Spock did not denounce spanking until a few years
before his death? Before that time, he accepted spanking. Don't blame
lack of spanking on Dr. Spock
Don't use the Bible to justify spanking, unless you also use the Bible
to justify stoning children to death for being rebellious, and for
eating and drinking too much (Deuteronomy). If you want your life
guided by the Old Testament, you may want to read the Old Testament.
Proverbs is the only place in the Bible that suggests spanking children.
The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that would
hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for those
who do.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful. Spanking is hitting children.
Children learn by their parents' behavior. When parents hit their
children, the children learn that hitting and violence is acceptable.
LaVonne

User: "Pastor Frank"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	16 Dec 2004 02:32:23 PM

"Carlson LaVonne" <carls017@umn.edu> wrote in message
news:cpo12l$7u3$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu...

Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:

(Some of these *Spock Babies* don't realize is that some of us were

raised

by the Biblical Standard, of the threat of a spanking)

Did you know that Dr. Spock did not denounce spanking until a few years
before his death? Before that time, he accepted spanking. Don't blame
lack of spanking on Dr. Spock

Don't use the Bible to justify spanking, unless you also use the Bible
to justify stoning children to death for being rebellious, and for
eating and drinking too much (Deuteronomy). If you want your life
guided by the Old Testament, you may want to read the Old Testament.
Proverbs is the only place in the Bible that suggests spanking children.

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that would
hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for those
who do.

What it teaches is respect

I would usggest you mind your own business. Unless a child is verifiably
injured, you have no business telling parent what to do.
Pastor Frank
**First they came for the Communists; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Communist. Then they came for the Socialists; I didn't object, for I wasn't
a Socialist. Then they came for the Jews; I didn't object, for I wasn't a
Jew. Then they came for the Gypsies, the homosexuals, mental defectives,
Jehovah Witnesses and all others they didn't like, and again I didn't
object, for I was none of these, or so I thought.
Finally they came for me, - by then there was no one left to object.**
(Martin Niem�ller, German Pastor, who survived the
Konzentrationslager of Sachsenhausen and Dachau).
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Dec 2004 07:13:53 PM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that would
hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for those
who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful. It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.

User: "Kane"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Dec 2004 08:55:37 PM

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that

would

hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for

those

who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

Yes he did. He asked they be sent to him. He was a teacher. Teaching is
discipline.
"'And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them:
and His disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw
it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little
children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the
kingdom of God' (Mark 10:13-14)."
You just mean he didn't address your version of discipline, and
interestingly, he did so. LaVonne pointed that out to you before.
In fact if you cause your child to sin, and you will by the use of pain
to parent them, you will have sinned.
If you deliberately inflict pain on a child you are acting against
Christ's teachings. Pain for any reason.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is taught
by respecting.

It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.

Yes it is. If one doesnt' respect a child's feelings, capacities,
limits, then the child has no model to learn respect from.
The assumption that pain will teach respect is easily refuted by the
fact that learning is 80% by modeling. Children do what they see and
hear performed.
And very much so by their caregivers. Or do you think you can lay with
harlots in sight of your child, but beat your child into avoiding them?
Kane

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99

/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	14 Dec 2004 10:58:45 PM

On 14 Dec 2004 18:55:37 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that

would

hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for

those

who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

Yes he did. He asked they be sent to him. He was a teacher. Teaching is
discipline.

Nice try at playing dodge ball, but Jesus wasn't
playing the role of their human parents.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is taught
by respecting.

Respect is not always taught that way. As you said, a
child does not know from respect. How do you teach a
child what he/she cannot, by your own words,
understand?

It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.

Yes it is.

No,it isn't. The child's feelings may be wrong. The
child may feel that it's okay to strike the parent and
in fact, almost all children do it once, to test the
parents. Guess what? That's wrong. You lose.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.

User: "Kane"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	15 Dec 2004 02:44:15 PM

Pastor Dave wrote:

On 14 Dec 2004 18:55:37 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that

would

hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for

those

who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

Yes he did. He asked they be sent to him. He was a teacher. Teaching

discipline.

Nice try at playing dodge ball,

Was He not The Teacher? Did He not ask that the children not be denied
access to Him? Is "discipline" the word, not derived from the same
sources that "teach" and "learn" are?
What exactly did I "dodge?"

but Jesus wasn't
playing the role of their human parents.

I didn't say he was. Who's the dodger here?
I said He spoke to those who would send the children away from Him. He
warned that those, and He didn't discriminate roles, who would hurt
children should be cast in the sea, and I presumed drowned. An "*****
Stone" for milling, is very very large, and one cannot swim chained to
it.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is

taught

by respecting.

Respect is not always taught that way. As you said, a
child does not know from respect. How do you teach a
child what he/she cannot, by your own words,
understand?

Just as I teach to adults in classes I've given. By showing respect, by
example. I'm not teaching you, or my way would be quite different. I'm
debating and rebutting your nonsense. Would you prefer I teach?
It is not respectful to hit. It is disrespectful to hit. And you
misunderstand what He said about this. Your understanding appears to be
that of the Rice Christian, rather than someone dedicated to truly
understanding and living The Word.

It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.

Yes it is.

No,it isn't.

Yes is most decidedly is. I'll show you your illogic in the next
sentence. Observe.

The child's feelings may be wrong.

You mistake feeling for thought. A feeling is never "wrong" unless it's
the wrong feeling for the event. To feel joy if a pet dies, for
instance. To feel arrouse for someone else's wife or husband, for
instance. To feel sadness or anger at receiving His blessing.
Those would be "feelings" that "may be wrong." And of course are, by
their incongruence to the circumstances.

The
child may feel that it's okay to strike the parent

That isn't an emotion...a feeling. That is a thought, or an impulse.
Neither is a "feeling."

and
in fact, almost all children do it once, to test the
parents. Guess what? That's wrong. You lose.

Ah, thank you. You have made my point for me. Take your statement "to
test the parents."
That is commonly used, and I presume you do, to show a misbehavior. A
deliberate defiance or expression of hostility toward the parents.
We, all of us, by our natures, and you folks would say, given by God,
test constantly, even until our deaths. We must. We cannot get from one
side of the room to the other, get a new job, do our work, find the
sock drawer, without some level of test.
Were do we first learn how to use testing to define our world? Where
things are in it? How to access those things, or avoid the ones we wish
to avoid? Why by testing, as a child, with parents that will either
chose to use harshness and pain, or those that will coach us and direct
us gently, and use example, the most powerful teacher, to show us what,
where, and how.
And the world has more than enough instances of natural discomfort to
teach a child the dangers. And until they are ready to think, a
function of the six year old (they are recording, reacting, and testing
only in the earlier years) we are their protectors. Punishing them is
an abomination in the Whose eyes?
It is essentially punishing the innocent. You, and most like you,
project your OWN sinfullness and guilt onto the child. He or she has
none...zero. He said so.
You rely on what He turned away from, The Old Testament, all too much.
Had He not done so He wouldn't have given the teaching of the New
Testament to his Disciples for their task.
The New is the interpreter of the Old. The Old is the foundation, the
New the house you were told to dwell in. Whose house is it? Follow what
you were told to do in regard to children, and stop pretending He
wouldn't parent you or the children. He did both. Or do you reject the
Trinity? If not, say it out loud. The first figure is?
Some of you folks don't even understand your own faith. And that's sad.
So, is the old Testament the law, then, and the New a pretty fairytale?
And no, my name is not pronounced "Cain."
It means......"Man."
One pronounces it it as, "kah neigh" by native speakers or sometimes as
"kah knee" by others. The spelling was imposed from both Spanish and
English forms. The natives didn't have a written form like ours.
So, Pastor Dave, as you were saying?
Kane

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	15 Dec 2004 06:26:54 PM

On 15 Dec 2004 12:44:15 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On 14 Dec 2004 18:55:37 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing that

would

hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences for

those

who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

Yes he did. He asked they be sent to him. He was a teacher. Teaching

discipline.

Nice try at playing dodge ball,

You are trying to combine discipline with Jesus'
statement not to hinder children from coming to Him.
Discipline does not do that. In fact, God is the One
who gave us the command to discipline our children and
He disciplines born again believers as well and teaches
us that those who are not chastised, are not considered
sons.
Hebrews 12:6-8
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and
scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as
with sons; for what son is he whom the father
chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are
partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

but Jesus wasn't
playing the role of their human parents.

I didn't say he was. Who's the dodger here?

You are the one who tried to mix that passage with a
human parent disciplining their child.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is
taught by respecting.

Respect is not always taught that way. As you said, a
child does not know from respect. How do you teach a
child what he/she cannot, by your own words,
understand?

Adults and children are different. Once again, you
make an invalid comparison.

It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.

Yes it is.

No,it isn't.

Yes is most decidedly is. I'll show you your illogic in the next
sentence. Observe.

The child's feelings may be wrong.

You mistake feeling for thought. A feeling is never "wrong" unless it's
the wrong feeling for the event. To feel joy if a pet dies, for
instance. To feel arrouse for someone else's wife or husband, for
instance. To feel sadness or anger at receiving His blessing.

Those would be "feelings" that "may be wrong." And of course are, by
their incongruence to the circumstances.

This has nothing to do with tip toeing around the
child's feelings. Are you reading this post, or
another?

The child may feel that it's okay to strike the parent

That isn't an emotion...a feeling. That is a thought, or an impulse.
Neither is a "feeling."

Humans are driven mainly by feelings. A child is angry
and strikes the parent. That is an act committed due
to a feeling.

and
in fact, almost all children do it once, to test the
parents. Guess what? That's wrong. You lose.

Ah, thank you. You have made my point for me. Take your statement "to
test the parents."

The child is not testing them to see if they will react
reasonably. You now try to make the child out to be
wiser than the parents. The child is testing to see if
he/she can get away with it and thus, walk all over the
parents.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.

User: "Kane"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	15 Dec 2004 08:43:39 PM

Pastor Dave wrote:

On 15 Dec 2004 12:44:15 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On 14 Dec 2004 18:55:37 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:38:44 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, Carlson LaVonne <carls017@umn.edu>
pontificated:

The words of Jesus are very clear. Jesus advocates nothing

that

would

hurt or harm a little child, but he does suggest consequences

for

those

who do.

Jesus did not address disciplining a child.

Yes he did. He asked they be sent to him. He was a teacher.

Teaching

discipline.

Nice try at playing dodge ball,

Was He not The Teacher? Did He not ask that the children not be

denied

access to Him? Is "discipline" the word, not derived from the same
sources that "teach" and "learn" are?

What exactly did I "dodge?"

I see you chose to use the one book that was written by an unknown
author. The best guess is that it was penned by the Apostle, Barnabas,
a contempory of Paul, so it sounds like Paul a bit.

Hebrews 12:6-8

6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and
scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as
with sons; for what son is he whom the father
chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are
partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Yep, sure sounds like Paul, who loved much the Book of Solomon.
Say, tell us. How old is this "Son" that keeps being mentioned? Does
this mean we cannot chastise Daughters, and that we can must do so the
sons from the moment of birth?
Sounds like the old father/son conflict common to nature as the son
comes to manhood. And it sounds like a knockdown dragout fight. Look at
the claim that the mother was unfaithful....yep, that's a friend of
Paul's alright. 0:->
Barnabas was not one of the 12, hence he took for his task the writing
as utterings from Paul. I don't buy it.
Read Hebrews. It's almost a characture of Paul's expressions. It's
style is different enough to rule him out...and he always signed his
letters.
Lots of strum and drung, kinda like your silly sword below.
I always thought Hebrews openned with such lovely promise and hope. It
soon became what you quoted...a epistle of hate.
By Chapter 4, in full swing with lots of threat from God.

but Jesus wasn't
playing the role of their human parents.

I didn't say he was. Who's the dodger here?

You are the one who tried to mix that passage with a
human parent disciplining their child.

No, I did no such thing. YOU tried to link to "discipline," giving me
then license to point out He was a teacher and was teaching when the
event occured where adults tried to turn the children away.
This is what I said.

Was He not The Teacher? Did He not ask that the children not be

denied

access to Him? Is "discipline" the word, not derived from the same
sources that "teach" and "learn" are?

Now go and read about the actual incident and what was traspiring at
the time.
I also mentioned the general treatment of children. You seem thinking
impaired. Must you see what you wish, rather than what I actually
wrote?
Are you unable to follow the logic of who He was and what He was doing?

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is
taught by respecting.

Respect is not always taught that way. As you said, a
child does not know from respect. How do you teach a
child what he/she cannot, by your own words,
understand?

Just as I teach to adults in classes I've given. By showing respect,

example. I'm not teaching you, or my way would be quite different.

I'm

debating and rebutting your nonsense. Would you prefer I teach?

Adults and children are different. Once again, you
make an invalid comparison.

Adults and children are different. I make a clarification. Are you then
saying that I must not using pain and injury to control and teach you,
but it's okay to do that with children?
I have watched countless children, even a few badly started by those
that believe in such nonsense as you are peddling and very sick indeed,
who could respond with respect when treated with respect, and watching
other children being so treated, and giving back respect.

It is not the
job of a parent to tip toe around the child's feelings.

Yes it is.

No,it isn't.

Yes is most decidedly is. I'll show you your illogic in the next
sentence. Observe.

The child's feelings may be wrong.

You mistake feeling for thought. A feeling is never "wrong" unless

it's

the wrong feeling for the event. To feel joy if a pet dies, for
instance. To feel arrouse for someone else's wife or husband, for
instance. To feel sadness or anger at receiving His blessing.

Those would be "feelings" that "may be wrong." And of course are, by
their incongruence to the circumstances.

This has nothing to do with tip toeing around the
child's feelings. Are you reading this post, or
another?

Oh oh. Total logic circuit blowou on the part of the good Pastor. If
you are going to tell me that I am speaking about "feelings" but you
are using eamples of "thought" not "feeling."
One doesn't really "feel" like hitting, though it's a common enough
logic error common to our and other languages. So feeling like hitting
is not a feeling. What inspired that impulse is either a feeling or a
thought. There is where you find the core that motivated the behavior.
In the child it's rarely thought, before age six.
If a child is curious about the phyics of motion, and they all are,
they move to find out things by direct experiment. If they hit me as a
consequence, I can either move, or say "Ouch!" and give the child
something else to focus their aim on. That's all they are doing.
On the wild chance, and at 3 it can happen, the child is doing a
Social, rather than a Physics experiment, I will introduce a social
consequence to his hitting of me. I will get up, move, and remove any
reinforcement at all. I will do it intermittently because that has
proven to be more powerful than constant response.
There is never a reason to hit a child unless they are old enough to be
dangerous and are attacking in some way.

The child may feel that it's okay to strike the parent

That isn't an emotion...a feeling. That is a thought, or an impulse.
Neither is a "feeling."

Humans are driven mainly by feelings.

I don't care. That's not relevent to the argument.

A child is angry
and strikes the parent.

Yes, that IS a feeling. Anger. But you said, before, "feels like
hitting." I pointed out you were describing a behavior, and most likely
ignoring a thought.

That is an act committed due
to a feeling.

No, that is an act motivated by a feeling but is "committed" by the law
of physics.
When you get the difference you will finally know how to raise
children, into gentle, responsible, capable, self motivating, and very
safe human beings.
In the mean time, when you mistake a child's action for wilful hate and
sin and attack them in any way, verbally or physically, you are
creating the monsters we have come to dread on this planet.
Children act from impulse. The younger the more impulsive, until 15,
then they are divisible by 5 and impulsive again. Figure it out.
In the young child the capacity to be wilfully evil simply isn't there.
They cannot be wilfully deciding much of anything until six. Their
experiments look very much to an ignorant adult though, as purposefully
considered, alternatives considered, comparisons of possible outcomes
accounted for, then an action chosen, or rejected. That doesn't even
start until the sixth year, and it's shakey then.
All before are repetitious practise to gain some control over things
they don't understand, and especially the recording of information for
later use. That's why I will tell a child what I want them to know, but
I will NOT expect them to obey me or understand me. Mommies know this
instinctively I've noticed.
They talk a lot to their babies when we all know the baby can't
understand. But it lays down the tracks for later development. A child
that isn't babbled to by mommy is often terribly hampered in language
aquisition.
What the younger child is doing, when she acts, is responding to his or
her limits. The brain simply isn't processing the way you think it is.
You hit them you will record something....this is the age of powerful
capacity to record things to be used later in life....in them that you,
or I, or my children, and definately YOUR child, will pay dearly and
painfully for in the future. Possibly long after you are gone to your
reward. Lucky you. Unlucky world you leave him behind in.

and
in fact, almost all children do it once, to test the
parents. Guess what? That's wrong. You lose.

Ah, thank you. You have made my point for me. Take your statement

"to

test the parents."

The child is not testing them to see if they will react
reasonably.

No they are not. You are correct.

You now try to make the child out to be
wiser than the parents.

No, I make the child out to be a primative practical experimental
physicist at first, then a social experimenter at about 4, then at six
finally capable of some beginning cause and effect reasoning. You are
suggesting we have Pavlov's dog I think. Humans aren't.

The child is testing to see if
he/she can get away with it and thus, walk all over the
parents.

They aren't even capable of social skills learning until four. By then
you can talk to them to teach. You don't have to hit. They are highly
receptive and anxious to please and learn, IF you haven't trained them
into resitance power-strugglers by the use of pain, humilation, and
fear.
What you get in social learn in such a three year old is either bitter
battles, or the development of the sly sneak. Very sad. I prefer the
fighter. I can help them more easily.
They have no concept, except as you teach it to them by YOU walking all
over them and getting away with it, what that concept of "walking all
over" is. You invite a control battle, you get one.
A view of a newborn hospital nursery where drugs are not used for child
birth would show you that children are very very different by nature.
Some will cave to your cruelty and reinforce your thinking errors,
while others will fight you to the death....about 16 years of it, and
you get yours, one way or another. They leave, or they kick your *****
daily, physically or figuratively.
Mine didn't need to involve themselves in that nonsense. They both
matured at an astonishing rate, with gentle supportive style parenting.
They were and still are, compassionate, responsible, law abiding, self
managing, lifelong learners, with good jobs, and better prospects.
Everyone that meets them wants to be with them. They, though quiet
generally have wicked senses of humor...and it's mostly from watching
folks such as you blunder with your children and create either images
of yourself, or very sick humans...though the dividing line between the
two is murky.
I am not the only parent with exactly the same experience. We gentled
our children by gentleness, not by pain. Even an animal tamed by force
retains a dangerous capacity for violence. Dogs that bite often do so
suddenly and the owner is perplexed, and forgets the slaps and
scoldings they gave the puppy, or is sure that those should have
worked.
Your child, the children of spankers, humiliators, punishers, fear
mongerers, are ticking timebombs..and they are wrapped in lace. Check
out the ones that lost it and killed. They LOOKED really good, until
they were caught.
Your expression "walk all over" shows the mindset of the coward. We are
talking little children here. They will not and cannot do that unless
you invite it by provocation..which punishers inevitably do.
The child is led into what you call 'Sin' by your very own actions
teaching and leading them into it. My children rarely "misbehaved" and
when stuck turned easily themselves in response to my voice and
presence for some guidance...by my teaching...not by beating.

--

Pastor Dave Raymond

"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99

No you don't. The stupid don't become wise by scripture. They do with
it what they do with everything: use it to reinforce and excuse their
stupidity.

/ \8
o{}xxxxx[]:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::88
\ 8

This time it's a Daisy.

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17

Just love to have an enemy, don'tcha. I can see where your child
raising mindset comes from.
Hasn't anyone ever told you, Hero, that it's cowardly to hit someone
smaller and weaker than you?
Kane
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	16 Dec 2004 10:20:45 AM

On 15 Dec 2004 18:43:39 -0800, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Kane" <pohakuyakokane@yahoo.com>
pontificated:

What exactly did I "dodge?"

I see you chose to use the one book that was written by an unknown
author. The best guess is that it was penned by the Apostle, Barnabas,
a contempory of Paul, so it sounds like Paul a bit.

Yep, sure sounds like Paul, who loved much the Book of Solomon.

Say, tell us. How old is this "Son" that keeps being mentioned? Does
this mean we cannot chastise Daughters, and that we can must do so the
sons from the moment of birth?

Sounds like the old father/son conflict common to nature as the son
comes to manhood. And it sounds like a knockdown dragout fight. Look at
the claim that the mother was unfaithful....yep, that's a friend of
Paul's alright. 0:->

Barnabas was not one of the 12, hence he took for his task the writing
as utterings from Paul. I don't buy it.

Read Hebrews. It's almost a characture of Paul's expressions. It's
style is different enough to rule him out...and he always signed his
letters.

Lots of strum and drung, kinda like your silly sword below.

I always thought Hebrews openned with such lovely promise and hope. It
soon became what you quoted...a epistle of hate.

By Chapter 4, in full swing with lots of threat from God.

This is where they lose, folks. They bring up Jesus,
trying to sound so Christian, when they're actually
twisting His words and then, when it's pointed out that
what they believe actually goes against what the Bible
says, they attack the Scriptures. Now they're right
and the Bible is wrong. That's how you know they
follow their own doctrine and not Christ.
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the
end thereof are the ways of death." - Proverbs 14:12
Of course, Kane knocked Solomon also, so they won't pay
any attention to this either.

but Jesus wasn't
playing the role of their human parents.

I didn't say he was. Who's the dodger here?

You are the one who tried to mix that passage with a
human parent disciplining their child.

No, I did no such thing.

Yes you did, or you wouldn't have quoted that passage,
given that the discussion was about spanking. You said
that Jesus prohibited it and then quoted that passage.

What it teaches is respect

Hitting children is not respectful.

A child disobeying is not respectful.

A child disobeying doesn't know from respect, Pastor. Respect is
taught by respecting.

Respect is not always taught that way. As you said, a
child does not know from respect. How do you teach a
child what he/she cannot, by your own words,
understand?

Adults and children are different. Once again, you
make an invalid comparison.

Adults and children are different. I make a clarification. Are you then
saying that I must not using pain and injury to control and teach you,
but it's okay to do that with children?

Nice try. You got caught trying to use a bad example.
Now you try to twist my words.

I have watched countless children, even a few badly started by those
that believe in such nonsense as you are peddling and very sick indeed,
who could respond with respect when treated with respect, and watching
other children being so treated, and giving back respect.

Now you dishonestly try to make me out as some sick
child abuser. We're done.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.

User: "kane"
Title: Re: \|Re: Parenting Suggestions-	03 Dec 2004 07: