"Vangelis" <Evan_Stamatopoulos@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in
message news:413c12d4$1_1@127.0.0.1...
"Pastor" Frank wrote:
So you say. But you are careful not to mention what that description
is. I think you are trying to pull my leg, and are in fact merely
another refuter knowing nothing about the subject you refute.
OK, if I must do all your work, I shall but I warn you, you can't find
salvation by relying on me or on jc you MUST do the work yourself but
just this once I'll be weak and help you. Well, for someone with a
bookshelf full of Buddhist books I'm surprised you don't know where
to find this especially since it's the first sutta in the Digha
Nikaya!!! Let's get technical - I'm referring to The Long Discourses
of the Buddha - A Translation of the Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe.
Turn to page 67 and you will see the Brahmajala Sutta: The Supreme
Net, otherwise known as The All-Embracing Net of Views. Now turn to
page 75 and read from 2.2 to 2.6 inclusive. This lovely delusion is
designated [Wrong view 5] and shows how a god is created and how his
delusion that he is a god and is responsible for creation of
everything arises. Sound familiar so far??? Next, turn to page 82 and
read 2.38. Let me quote part of it: "[Wrong views 19-34] They declare
that the self after death is healthy and conscious and ... (2)
immaterial ... (6) infinite ... (13) wholly happy. Sound familiar
with the xtian idea of a soul after death? In fact there are 62 kinds
of wrong views enumerated in this sutta so I'm sure if you peruse it
carefully you will find other views which align with the xtian
doctrine. So much for my not knowing the Buddhist suttas.
Are those Buddha's words or commentaries?
Pastor Frank wrote:
Quote:
I am glad to see you came to that conclusion, for that is the right
conclusion and the first step on the journey to the kingdom of
Heaven. It is the right conclusion, because our Christian "God is
love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in Jesus Christ and
there just isn't a _method_ to loving.
All you can do is invite the Holy Spirit of Christ to take up
residency in your heart and direct your actions in the ways of God.
Then step back spiritually to make room for Him, relaxing in the love
and grace of the ONLY real friend anyone of us can have, and that is
Jesus Christ, who loved us first, while we were yet sinners and and
undeserving of His love. Our job in this life is to hand on this love
unconditionally and indiscriminately as He did. We cannot do this of
ourselves, for love is not subject to man's will, but Jesus can do it
through us.
You may ask: What's the profit in this? Then ask yourself: Who
profits more, the lover or the loved? And you will know the answer to
most questions regarding religion.
First of all my aim is to go beyond the "Kingdom of Heaven" but I
will explain that comment later. Your comment that "God is love" I do
not dispute. Beings in these higher planes of existence have greater
capacity for states such as love. You then continue with disconnected
logic - I realised that xtianity is full of these a number of years
ago now and I disputed their validity earlier in this thread. I am
not going to repeat myself but when you do make comments like this
please show the connection - for example how accepting jc into your
life can make any difference to anything.
Pastor Frank wrote:
Quote:
Next to Christ I love the Buddha, for basically his Nirvana is the
same
as Christ's Kingdom of Heaven. There is a lovely parable
demonstrating that.
Two monks sat under a Bodhi-tree meditating, when Gautama Buddha
happen to come along. The first monk asked him: Master, how many live
must I live before I reach enlightenment? And Buddha answered: As many
lives as there are leaves on this tree. "That many more" the monk
groaned dejectedly and sadly sank back into his lotus position. The
second monk asked the same question and got the same answer. Only
this monk jumped up shouting, "Only that many more?", and laughed and
danced for joy. To which Buddha remarked: You are not far from
Nirvana. So it is with those who love, regardless of all adversities
which logically demand doing the opposite. See below how Christ
explains it to Philip.
For the first part of your comment here: "Next to Christ I love the
Buddha, for basically his Nirvana is the same as Christ's Kingdom of
Heaven.", I must spend a little time to explain how heaven and
nirvana are different. The Buddha, after direct experience, explained
that there are higher planes of existence otherwise known as heavens
and lower planes of existence otherwise known as hells. But there are
a number of properties of these planes of existence that the Buddha
explains in much greater depth than any teaching that christ gives on
the topic. The Buddha’s explanations are lucid, clear and
comprehensive. States of heaven and hell can be experienced here and
now. One can (with much work and persistence) calm ones mind down and
achieve states of deep meditation called jhanas. In these states one's
mind is so peaceful that it becomes very concentrated and it can
notice things that the daily state of the mind cannot. For example,
the concept of body and space become diminished and the mind expands
to fill a greater area and if it is really calm it can be noticed
that it is infinite. In this state it is like a clear lake as
compared to a muddy lake. Everydaty in life our minds are muddy - we
cannot see the mechanism of the mind. In a state of jhana, one’s mind
becomes crystal clear like being able to see to the bottom of a
crystal clear lake. Each and EVERY thought that passes through the
mind is noticed. Not only that, the arising of the thought is
noticed, the sustaining of the thought is noticed and the cessation
of the thought is noticed. No thought is missed!!! The joy of this
state comes from a realization of the purity and clarity of the mind
and by far surpasses ANY worldly joy. It beats the joy of possessing
new things, of being with friends and of sexual experiences. The
higher heavenly states of existence closely resemble these jhanic
states of mind where the meditator has stripped away all that is
unwholesome and is just left with the pure mind.
However, this jhanic state, like the heavenly and hell states have
in common what all conditioned things have in common - they are
impermanent. So even if I achieve a heavenly state in the next
existence, it too will cease (after many aeons). The same is true
with the hell states. They are all impermanent and all things that
are impermanent are inherently unsatisfactory. There is only one way
to escape this and that is cessation. One must train one's mind to
give up all attachment in order to find the ultimate peace of
cessation (otherwise known as nirvana, nibbana, the deathless state
and many other names).
You seem to misunderstand the story I cited above. The difference is
between positive and negative thinking. Rebirth occurs when you think, I
should have done this or that or the conditions should have been such or so
for me etc. etc. to be able to make progress etc. The important thing is,
that you ALWAYS get what you want, and tragically that includes what your
think you deserve.
To illustrate, think of the devotee who came from far away to have an
audience with Gautama Buddha. He brought many precious gifts to lay at the
feet of the Buddha. When approaching the Buddha, he heard him say: Drop it.
The devotee dropped all the gift and came closer. Again he heard Buddha say:
Drop it. Now he dropped everything else he had. Then for a third time Buddha
told him to drop it, but he had nothing left. It was only then he
understood, what Buddha meant. He had to drop his expectations, for to enter
Nirvana you must be selfless having no expectation, for expectation / desire
even for Nirvana will tie you to the wheel of death and rebirth. The problem
arises when people like you "work hard" at being without expectation,
expecting very much to achieve a state of detachment from expectations. It's
an impossible task and the day will come when you will throw in the towel
and give up. It's only then things start to happen.
Keep in mind, that Buddha was not loved so overwhelmingly for his
knowledge, nor his wisdom but for His compassion. That is why he was known
as the compassionate Buddha. Christ also is loved for His compassion, and I
put my faith into that love till I became submerged in Him in faith and
trust. It's like being a bride, who is so fascinated, nay captivated by her
groom, that all thoughts of self vanish. That contrasts with the other
bride, who sits in front of her mirror critically examining herself in every
detail, polishing, changing, improving, discarding and re-inventing herself
etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum, never hardly giving a though to her beloved,
her only focus being herself.
That is the difference between heaven and nirvana. One is
impermanent and the other is not therefore nibbana alone can provide
sanctuary from all suffering.
Love gives "sanctuary from all suffering".
The deathless state, however, is not an
easy one to attain. It begins by perfecting one's virtue, based on
which one's concentration increases and finally wisdom starts to
arise on dependence on these. Once wisdom matures, the veil of
delusion is penetrated, the nature of all things is experienced, all
conditioned things are understood to be impermanent, unsatisfactory
and not self. Dispassion occurs, all desire is extinguished and
cessation from all (suffering) has been achieved. Nirvana.
Sorry it took so long to explain all this but how can one explain
volumes and volumes of texts each consisting of thousands of pages of
suttas with clear, consistent and coherent concepts about reality in
only a few lines? The wonderful thing is that the path to achieve all
this is also explained in a clear and comprehensive manner in the
texts and there are many teachers out there than can help one on this
clearly defined path.
Now "Pastor" Frank, this is BASIC Buddhist knowledge. You obviously
don't refer to your Buddhist bookcase very often if at all. Maybe it
doesn't even exist, like your god...
You are quite accurate in your Buddhist knowledge, however I can assure
you, that though logical, it won't solve the problem. Though that is not
quite true either, for were is not for Buddha mortifying the flesh with
asceticism, He would not have had reason to give up, and would not have
reached Nirvana as a consequence. It's all much like a Koan in Zen-Buddhism.
As to my Buddhist book case, it exists alright as I have retold many a
tale I read in those sutras, and you have yet to even mention any, though I
will admit I haven't much looked at them for the last 20 years or so.
I thought I explained that my "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ. Only extreme cynics claim, that love doesn't
exist. Though some also don't want to believe, that God became flesh in
Christ. (see below)
Next!
"Pastor" Frank wrote:
How very convenient. That also obviates any possibility of an
academic
debate with you. I am not interested in what you supposedly "have
heard",
but what the Buddha and Christ said, and what they might have meant
and its
validity and veracity in the totality of their teaching. Of interest
are
also parallels and divergences between different belief systems.
Do try again, and this time stick to debating rules, and rigorously
reference all your assertions, so we all know where you are coming
from.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! LOL
Sorry but just a LOL wasn't enough at this point. You cannot in all
honesty claim to have an "academic debate" with me and then put up
quotes from xtian scriptures as a valid argument!
Are you not aware that Religion is a legitimate academic discipline in
most universities?
You have little to
no knowledge of Buddhism otherwise I would not have to quote all
these Buddhist texts and you would not get such basic points of
Buddhism wrong.
Are you claiming, that Buddhism is not taught at any university, and
that Buddhist scriptures cannot be used as references of ones opinions?
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
.
