| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John Vogel" |
| Date: |
22 Jun 2003 05:17:09 PM |
| Object: |
Re: RJJackson's Greatest Mistake |
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056288095.451525@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef49337_7@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056201654.855458@arakis...
"Tiger" <jef@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A0BB47EDE42jefscrrcom@130.133.1.4...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in
news:1056137246.88424@arakis:
"Tiger" <jef@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns939FB69CC5D96jefscrrcom@130.133.1.4...
"Chris Devol" <abc@defghijk.lmn> wrote in
news:NaqIa.23$p8.3@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
Do you think you are god yourself, that you should
consider yourself
omniscient and know for sure, who has met God and who hasn't?
I have met God many times, and I praise Him for it every
day of my life.
Since I welcome God, I am never far from God, whom I worship
and who lives in my heart and mind. How is that? See below
No, I don't think I am God. But I do know that what the Bible
teaches is the final, absolute truth.
Indeed? Like stoning disobedient children? Killing homosexuals?
Not wearing clothing made of two types of material? Not eating
shrimp or lobster?
Are you lost again? In case you haven't noticed, these are
Christian NGs. All of your complaints concern Judaism. Find an
appropriate NG willya?
So you disregard the OT? It's not part of the Bible?
We do not :"disregard the OT". We accept the OT only insofar it
supports Christ, for we are followers of Christ. See below for at
least
one difference.
Above you said "I do know that what the bible teaches is the final,
absolute
truth". When someone mentioned that in "The bible" there are things
relating
to stoning children and killing homosexuals, etc. You said "All of your
complaints concern Judaism". What do you consider the roots of
Christianity?
Are we not adopted sons and daughters, GRAFTED IN, and didn't Jesus
teach
in
the synogogues, using the Old Testement scripture, and wasn't he quoted
as
saying "salvation is of the Jews"? I find it confusing how you can say
"what the bible teaches is the final, absolute truth" and then when it's
pointed out that in the bible there is some really "bad" things you say
"your complaints are against Judaism"... this would seem to be implying
that
you (or we) only consider the NT (the Christian testament) to be the
Bible,
but when that is pointed out, you say that "we do not disregard the OT",
but
that we only support those parts that suppor Christ. Which would leave
me
to
beleive that you are saying that it is not "the bible" that teaches the
final absolute truth (otherwise how can you disregard some things, and
accept others?), but that it is Christ that teaches the final absolute
truth. Perhaps you were too quick to say "The bible teaches the final
absolute truth"?
I wasn't the one saying "The bible teaches the final absolute truth".
That was in answer to my post above. Though I concur with, that the Bible
is
the inerrant and holy Word of God, not all of it applies to us Christians.
God prescribes a different path to Jews. Our path is the one advocated by
Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I guess I get confused sometimes. You were simply agreeing with
the assertion, I guess, that the bible teaches the final absolute truth.
I don't believe that "the Bible is the inerrant and holy Word of God", by
the way, but I do believe that the Word of God, which in Jesus Christ is the
innerant and holy Word of God". Any words which can be mistranslated,
mangled, miscommuncated and trashed, would dare to take the name of our God
(YHWH) and translate it as "LORD", and would hide the very name of God's
Salvation is NOT (IMHO) the innerant Word of God.
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|
|
| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: RJJackson's Greatest Mistake |
23 Jun 2003 07:13:03 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056412320.383607@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef65e9c_2@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056288095.451525@arakis...
I wasn't the one saying "The bible teaches the final absolute
truth".
That was in answer to my post above. Though I concur with, that the
Bible
is the inerrant and holy Word of God, not all of it applies to us
Christians.
God prescribes a different path to Jews. Our path is the one advocated
by
Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I guess I get confused sometimes. You were simply agreeing
with
the assertion, I guess, that the bible teaches the final absolute truth.
I don't believe that "the Bible is the inerrant and holy Word of God",
by
the way, but I do believe that the Word of God, which in Jesus Christ is
the
innerant and holy Word of God". Any words which can be mistranslated,
mangled, miscommuncated and trashed, would dare to take the name of our
God
(YHWH) and translate it as "LORD", and would hide the very name of God's
Salvation is NOT (IMHO) the innerant Word of God.
That presents a problem, for now you echo the main-line churches with
their humanistic leadership. They say: The Bible CONTAINS the holy and
inerrant Word of God, and simple people like you and me, need a highly
qualified and famous theologian to sort out for us what is, and what is
not
the Word of God.
I don't believe that we need any qualified or famous theologian to sort out
for us what is and is not the Word of God. I believe the Holy Spirit will
discern for us what is and is not the Word of God, and furthermore will
bring to our rememberance EVERYTHING that Jesus Spoke. I believe the Word of
God is within US not within the Bible, but that the bible leads us to a
greater understanding (with the Holy Spirits guidance) of His Will and His
Word.
I am a fundamentalist, because of that one reason, that I will not
accept anyone other as a source of authoritative scripture interpretation,
than the Holy Spirit of God.
--
Pastor Frank
But, Frank, if you are reading any translation of the bible, aren't you
accepting someone elses interpretation? Do you think any of the translations
of the bible are without interpretation? I agree with you, of course, that
no one should trust man to interpret the scriptures, but that the Holy
Spirit of God will guide us into all understanding, not only of the words in
the bible, but of the Word within ourselves.
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|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: RJJackson's Greatest Mistake |
24 Jun 2003 05:51:13 AM |
|
|
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef7991f_1@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056412320.383607@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef65e9c_2@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056288095.451525@arakis...
I wasn't the one saying "The bible teaches the final absolute
truth".
That was in answer to my post above. Though I concur with, that the
Bible
is the inerrant and holy Word of God, not all of it applies to us
Christians.
God prescribes a different path to Jews. Our path is the one
advocated
by
Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I guess I get confused sometimes. You were simply agreeing
with
the assertion, I guess, that the bible teaches the final absolute
truth.
I don't believe that "the Bible is the inerrant and holy Word of God",
by
the way, but I do believe that the Word of God, which in Jesus Christ
is
the
innerant and holy Word of God". Any words which can be mistranslated,
mangled, miscommuncated and trashed, would dare to take the name of
our
God
(YHWH) and translate it as "LORD", and would hide the very name of
God's
Salvation is NOT (IMHO) the innerant Word of God.
That presents a problem, for now you echo the main-line churches
with
their humanistic leadership. They say: The Bible CONTAINS the holy and
inerrant Word of God, and simple people like you and me, need a highly
qualified and famous theologian to sort out for us what is, and what is
not
the Word of God.
I don't believe that we need any qualified or famous theologian to sort
out
for us what is and is not the Word of God. I believe the Holy Spirit will
discern for us what is and is not the Word of God, and furthermore will
bring to our rememberance EVERYTHING that Jesus Spoke. I believe the Word
of
God is within US not within the Bible, but that the bible leads us to a
greater understanding (with the Holy Spirits guidance) of His Will and His
Word.
I am a fundamentalist, because of that one reason, that I will not
accept anyone other as a source of authoritative scripture
interpretation,
than the Holy Spirit of God.
But, Frank, if you are reading any translation of the bible, aren't you
accepting someone elses interpretation? Do you think any of the
translations
of the bible are without interpretation? I agree with you, of course, that
no one should trust man to interpret the scriptures, but that the Holy
Spirit of God will guide us into all understanding, not only of the words
in
the bible, but of the Word within ourselves.
Like a judge who needs his law books to reference his decisions, we need
the Bible as the foundation of our beliefs. No judge dares to say: I know
what is right an what is wrong, needing no reference for my decisions, but
my own personal beliefs.
As long as the Holy Spirit talks to me in the language of the NT, I know
that God is speaking to me. But when at variance with the NT I know it is
the devil speaking, for the Bible warns me, that everything has its
counterfit.
I would strongly suggest, John, that you too use the NT as the INERRANT
foundation of your beliefs, -in faith, for like myself, you may not
understand all of it. The alternative is, you trust yourself and your own
understanding, like atheists do.
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Lk:6:38: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure,
pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into
your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be
measured to you again.
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: RJJackson's Greatest Mistake |
25 Jun 2003 01:16:20 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056483401.831328@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef7991f_1@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056412320.383607@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef65e9c_2@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056288095.451525@arakis...
I wasn't the one saying "The bible teaches the final absolute
truth".
That was in answer to my post above. Though I concur with, that
the
Bible
is the inerrant and holy Word of God, not all of it applies to us
Christians.
God prescribes a different path to Jews. Our path is the one
advocated
by
Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I guess I get confused sometimes. You were simply
agreeing
with
the assertion, I guess, that the bible teaches the final absolute
truth.
I don't believe that "the Bible is the inerrant and holy Word of
God",
by
the way, but I do believe that the Word of God, which in Jesus
Christ
is
the
innerant and holy Word of God". Any words which can be
mistranslated,
mangled, miscommuncated and trashed, would dare to take the name of
our
God
(YHWH) and translate it as "LORD", and would hide the very name of
God's
Salvation is NOT (IMHO) the innerant Word of God.
That presents a problem, for now you echo the main-line churches
with
their humanistic leadership. They say: The Bible CONTAINS the holy and
inerrant Word of God, and simple people like you and me, need a highly
qualified and famous theologian to sort out for us what is, and what
is
not
the Word of God.
I don't believe that we need any qualified or famous theologian to sort
out
for us what is and is not the Word of God. I believe the Holy Spirit
will
discern for us what is and is not the Word of God, and furthermore will
bring to our rememberance EVERYTHING that Jesus Spoke. I believe the
Word
of
God is within US not within the Bible, but that the bible leads us to a
greater understanding (with the Holy Spirits guidance) of His Will and
His
Word.
I am a fundamentalist, because of that one reason, that I will
not
accept anyone other as a source of authoritative scripture
interpretation,
than the Holy Spirit of God.
But, Frank, if you are reading any translation of the bible, aren't you
accepting someone elses interpretation? Do you think any of the
translations
of the bible are without interpretation? I agree with you, of course,
that
no one should trust man to interpret the scriptures, but that the Holy
Spirit of God will guide us into all understanding, not only of the
words
in
the bible, but of the Word within ourselves.
Like a judge who needs his law books to reference his decisions, we
need
the Bible as the foundation of our beliefs. No judge dares to say: I know
what is right an what is wrong, needing no reference for my decisions, but
my own personal beliefs.
As long as the Holy Spirit talks to me in the language of the NT, I
know
that God is speaking to me. But when at variance with the NT I know it is
the devil speaking, for the Bible warns me, that everything has its
counterfit.
I would strongly suggest, John, that you too use the NT as the
INERRANT
foundation of your beliefs, -in faith, for like myself, you may not
understand all of it. The alternative is, you trust yourself and your own
understanding, like atheists do.
--
Pastor Frank
I agree Frank, we should definitly look toward the scriptures for our
guidance, and if anything we say is at variance with the scriptures, we
really need to examine it. For instance, what you said above about a judge
needing the law books for refrence, we need to have a firm foundation for
our own beliefs. I look for scriptural references to our foundation to see
if the scripture teaches this, and find the scripture that say:
Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for
training, for guiding, for education in righteousness: So that the man of
God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti
3:16-17 BBE)
Can you show me other scripture relating to what you are saying above as far
as telling us that the NT is "innerrant"? I couldn't find any scripture
saying this, but I might not be looking in the right places.
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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: RJJackson's Greatest Mistake |
25 Jun 2003 09:26:34 PM |
|
|
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef93f6c_6@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056483401.831328@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef7991f_1@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056412320.383607@arakis...
"John Vogel" <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ef65e9c_2@corp.newsgroups.com...
"Pastor Frank" <pf@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1056288095.451525@arakis...
I wasn't the one saying "The bible teaches the final
absolute
truth".
That was in answer to my post above. Though I concur with, that
the
Bible
is the inerrant and holy Word of God, not all of it applies to
us
Christians.
God prescribes a different path to Jews. Our path is the one
advocated
by
Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, I guess I get confused sometimes. You were simply
agreeing
with
the assertion, I guess, that the bible teaches the final absolute
truth.
I don't believe that "the Bible is the inerrant and holy Word of
God",
by
the way, but I do believe that the Word of God, which in Jesus
Christ
is
the
innerant and holy Word of God". Any words which can be
mistranslated,
mangled, miscommuncated and trashed, would dare to take the name
of
our
God
(YHWH) and translate it as "LORD", and would hide the very name of
God's
Salvation is NOT (IMHO) the innerant Word of God.
That presents a problem, for now you echo the main-line churches
with
their humanistic leadership. They say: The Bible CONTAINS the holy
and
inerrant Word of God, and simple people like you and me, need a
highly
qualified and famous theologian to sort out for us what is, and what
is
not
the Word of God.
I don't believe that we need any qualified or famous theologian to
sort
out
for us what is and is not the Word of God. I believe the Holy Spirit
will
discern for us what is and is not the Word of God, and furthermore
will
bring to our rememberance EVERYTHING that Jesus Spoke. I believe the
Word
of
God is within US not within the Bible, but that the bible leads us to
a
greater understanding (with the Holy Spirits guidance) of His Will and
His
Word.
I am a fundamentalist, because of that one reason, that I will
not
accept anyone other as a source of authoritative scripture
interpretation,
than the Holy Spirit of God.
But, Frank, if you are reading any translation of the bible, aren't
you
accepting someone elses interpretation? Do you think any of the
translations
of the bible are without interpretation? I agree with you, of course,
that
no one should trust man to interpret the scriptures, but that the Holy
Spirit of God will guide us into all understanding, not only of the
words
in
the bible, but of the Word within ourselves.
Like a judge who needs his law books to reference his decisions, we
need
the Bible as the foundation of our beliefs. No judge dares to say: I
know
what is right an what is wrong, needing no reference for my decisions,
but
my own personal beliefs.
As long as the Holy Spirit talks to me in the language of the NT, I
know
that God is speaking to me. But when at variance with the NT I know it
is
the devil speaking, for the Bible warns me, that everything has its
counterfit.
I would strongly suggest, John, that you too use the NT as the
INERRANT
foundation of your beliefs, -in faith, for like myself, you may not
understand all of it. The alternative is, you trust yourself and your
own
understanding, like atheists do.
I agree Frank, we should definitly look toward the scriptures for our
guidance, and if anything we say is at variance with the scriptures, we
really need to examine it. For instance, what you said above about a judge
needing the law books for refrence, we need to have a firm foundation for
our own beliefs. I look for scriptural references to our foundation to see
if the scripture teaches this, and find the scripture that say:
Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for
training, for guiding, for education in righteousness: So that the man of
God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti
3:16-17 BBE)
To my knowledge, this is tempered by only one verse: 2Cor:3:6: Who also
hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of
the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
So it's not just the letter of the law a judge has to consider, but also
the spirit of the law.
Can you show me other scripture relating to what you are saying above as
far
as telling us that the NT is "innerrant"? I couldn't find any scripture
saying this, but I might not be looking in the right places.
Only in so far as any addition, change or deletion of scripture is
forbidden. (see below) Also: Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is
written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Lk:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not
live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Which for us HAS TO BE the
NT. There is no other choice available unless you want to include the Pope
etc.
There may be more and more speciific references, but it should be
obvious, that we cannot pick and choose whatever we like of the NT to be the
Holy and inerrant Word of God, and all else we can ignore. Or alternatively
needing theologians to make that decision for us.
--
Pastor Frank
Rv:22:18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the
prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add
unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
.
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