And not only does a beginning not necessitate a creator, but in the
theoretical case that a creator does exist, one would need to explain:

Hello,

I will try to explain some of them, but try to keep it brief. If you
want more details just ask.

why a spiritual (non-material) being created a material universe
in the first place;

The Bible doesn't say. Thus any answer is speculation. Perhaps He was
exercising His great powers and abilities. (you don't expect a
carpenter to just build only one thing all the time, do you?)

why an eternal, perfect, changeless creator underwent change by
acting to create a non-eternal, imperfect, changing universe;

Who says the universe is imperfect? For example, if stars were
designed to have a limited life, and new ones form, then that is not a
sign of imperfection, but of a perfect system performing what it was
designed to do.

why an eternal, perfect, changeless being would _act_ at all;

It would be more reasonable to conclude that a being of such magnitude
would rather do something with those powers, rather than just 'sit
still' all the time.

why a creator is necessarily a deity, when it could be some other
sort of being;

Yes, the Bible tells us that the Creator refers to Himself as "God
Almighty" etc. (Ge 17:1) That implies that God wants His lower
creations to give Him the loyalty and praise that He deserves for
being their Creator. After all, humans many times praise and give
honor to outstanding humans. How much more so for the Creator of all
the universe. (Ge 1:1)

why a purportedly all-good creator produced a universe fraught
with violence, suffering, and death

God didn't produce all the suffering and death humans experience. But
He is permitting it at this time.

(if you want to know the Scriptural reasons why God permits human
suffering and death at this time, just let me know)

.. and a host of other issues - including the fact that there are
many systems (including some within Christianity) which claim the
existence of a deity or deities, yet necessitate no involvement
whatsoever of these beings with the material universe.

Then they are not basing their beliefs on the Bible. The Bible wants
humans to have a constant direct connection with God. For example Ec
12:13,

"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear
God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man."
(NIV)

shriven leper <bastasch8647@comcast.net>
Re: Science Disproves Evolution

On 28 Jul 2006 11:54:12 -0700, "Pahu" <pahu70@yahoo.com> wrote:

Space, Time, and Matter Demand A Beginning

No scientific theory exists to explain the origin of space, time, or
matter.

Haven't read much cosmology, have you.

Because each is intimately related to or even defined in terms
of the other, a satisfactory explanation for the origin of one must
also explain the origin of the others (a). Naturalistic explanations
have completely failed.

Material explanations succeed for material origins.

snipped

the
universe had a beginning (A beginning suggests a Creator (b)).

snipped

A beginning suggests a *cause*. A *creator* is an all-too-human
concept, obviously derived from the making of tools by homo sapiens.

b . "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had
a creator." Stephen W. Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York:
Bantam Books, 1988), pp. 140-141.

But of course Hawking is not a theologian or a philosopher.
Notice, too, that he uses the term, "suppose": we might suppose,
without knowing for certain, that the universe had a creator.

And not only does a beginning not necessitate a creator, but in the
theoretical case that a creator does exist, one would need to explain:

Hello,

I will try to explain some of them, but try to keep it brief. If you
want more details just ask.

why a spiritual (non-material) being created a material universe
in the first place;

The Bible doesn't say. Thus any answer is speculation. Perhaps He was
exercising His great powers and abilities. (you don't expect a
carpenter to just build only one thing all the time, do you?)

why an eternal, perfect, changeless creator underwent change by
acting to create a non-eternal, imperfect, changing universe;

Who says the universe is imperfect? For example, if stars were
designed to have a limited life, and new ones form, then that is not a
sign of imperfection, but of a perfect system performing what it was
designed to do.

why an eternal, perfect, changeless being would _act_ at all;

It would be more reasonable to conclude that a being of such magnitude
would rather do something with those powers, rather than just 'sit
still' all the time.

why a creator is necessarily a deity, when it could be some other
sort of being;

Yes, the Bible tells us that the Creator refers to Himself as "God
Almighty" etc. (Ge 17:1) That implies that God wants His lower
creations to give Him the loyalty and praise that He deserves for
being their Creator. After all, humans many times praise and give
honor to outstanding humans. How much more so for the Creator of all
the universe. (Ge 1:1)

why a purportedly all-good creator produced a universe fraught
with violence, suffering, and death

God didn't produce all the suffering and death humans experience. But
He is permitting it at this time.
(if you want to know the Scriptural reasons why God permits human
suffering and death at this time, just let me know)

.. and a host of other issues - including the fact that there are
many systems (including some within Christianity) which claim the
existence of a deity or deities, yet necessitate no involvement
whatsoever of these beings with the material universe.

Then they are not basing their beliefs on the Bible. The Bible wants
humans to have a constant direct connection with God. For example Ec
12:13,

"Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear
God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man."
(NIV)

Moreover, if one accepts that the existence of the material world
indicates the existence of a creator, this is not necessarily good
news, for a strong case can be made that this means, "God exists, and
he's a sadist". An empty universe is much preferable to one ruled by
a tyrannical, insane despot.

Yes, the Bible says that God exists. But He is not a sadist. If you
are referring to the 'hellfire' doctrine, that is not a Bible
doctrine. Notice this stated principle of God even conceiving of
burning alive humans. Jer 7:31,

"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben
Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did
not command, nor did it enter my mind." (NIV)

Yes, there are some Bible verses talking about people being tossed
into a "fire". But context and related verses, show them to be
symbolic of something else, not literal. One example of 'hellfire' is
supposed to be the "lake of fire" mentioned in the book of Revelation.
But notice what else is tossed into that alleged literal fire. Re
20:14,

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of
fire is the second death." (NIV)

Can "death" be literally picked up and tossed into a literal fire?
Then neither is that fire literal. And that same verse even tells us
what that "fire" represents. It is symbolic of "the second death". (if
you want to know more about what that "second" death is, which implies
a 'first' death, then just let me know)

I hope some answers above have helped you a little bit.

Sincerely, James


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