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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
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<snip>

Where do you get your wierd ideas ? Of course I "mind if a human being
is
killed because the mother gives consent"
What planet are you from ?
Again, your question has nothing to do with reality.

It most certainly does. I can understand to the pro-abortionist they
have a need to ignore that the fetus is a human being.

Nothing to *ignor* as it isn't a human being.

of touch with reality *claim* that it is a "human being"

It becomes, legally, a "human being" at birth,

while I will agree,

classed as such (that is, depending on the individual fetus' development
of the ability to be aware, which happens anywhere from mid-way through
the 5 month to the end of the 6th) IT ISN'T, and talking as if it is,
won't change the facts. A fetus is NOT a "human being"

The mother is giving consent for a human being to be killed.

As there does not yet exist a "human being" during her pregnancy, she is
giving no such consent
Try talking in ENGLISH

The pro-abortionist has no problem with this.

With things which only happen in your imagination ? Why should anyone, in
the real world have a problem with it ?

The person(s) who are ignoring reality are those who think abortion is a
good thing.

Only in *your* "reality"

It is a non-intrinsic evil.

Do you think it is o.k. for her to give consent, say in the 7th or 8th
month of her pregnancy

Such would be murder(unless her life is at risk, as the child to be
receive awareness in the 5th to 6th month, but such is NEVER done unless
her doctor has informed her that continuing to carry it will kill her.

that is false, and professionals in the field of medicine have testified
that it is done when it is not an emergency.

After the 5th month ? Less than 1% are done, simply to avoid having a
baby.

Now many "non-emergency" abortions are done in these months by mothers to
be who WANTED to have a baby.... to avoid an UNAVOIDABLE emergency later
on down the road, because their doctor had already told them that the
mother would be highly unlikely to survive their pregnancy.
Sorry, bud, but I support SELF-DEFENSE (even if done before the threat is
already killing the mother)

Lets use some of your logic here.
You are saying that it is murder, unless her life is at risk.

Yes

Why isn't it murder if she gives consent?

Because it is SELF-DEFENSE

Not all killings are murder, we have murder (1st / 2rd / 3rd degree)
manslaughter, etc. down to self-defense / accident

Except to save the mother's life, abortions are done before the
possible child to be is physically capable of awareness, (about
five/six months into the pregnancy)
The mother to be, has the right to complete, or end her pregnancy,
thus ending her pregnancy without her concent, is as it should be,
illegal.

So you don't see a problem with a mother giving consent at any stage in
the pregnancy?

By the time a woman is past the 5th to sixth month it is clear that she
WANTS to have a baby

That is not always true

See above, it is 99 plus % true, which is plenty enough for me to see it
as not really important enough to debate.

Even if the fetus has a beating heart, blood is pumping, brain
activity, movement of fingers and so forth, facial expressions.

Does not happen until after the 5th to 6th month,

Actually, the heart starts beating well before the 5th month.

The heart doesn't think

The heart is forming within 18 days after conception
Foundations of the brain and nervous system are laid out in 20 days after
conception

But no brain

By 24 days, the heart is beating (this is well before 5 months)

The heart doesn't think

By 40 days, the Heart's energy output is 20percent of adult's
By 45 days, spontanious movement has begun

Reflexs are not due to thought

A few more facts

10 weeks: Body is sensitive to touch. Child squints, swallows, puckers up
brow and frowns.

More spontanious reflexes

11 weeks: Baby urinates, makes complex facial expressions - even smiles.

more of the same, even after birth passing gas looks like a "smile"

12 weeks: Vigorous activity shows distinct individuality. Child can kick,
turn feet, curl and fan toes, make a fist, move thumbs, bend wrists, turn
head, open mouth and press lips tightly together. Breathing is practiced.

Interesting as the brain is not yet connected to the spine (which doesn't
happen until during the 5th to 6th month), thus again such are reflexes

13 weeks: Face is prettier, facial expressions resembling parents'.
Movements are graceful, reflexes vigorous. Vocal chords are formed (but
without air baby cannot cry). Sex organs are apparent. 4 months: Child
can grasp with hands, swim and turn somersaults.
4-5 months: Mother first feels baby's movements.

5 months: Sleeping habits appear, but a slammed door will provoke
activity.

these are the first signs of the spinal connection, and activation of
awareness actually begins (many do not reach this stage until near the end
of the 6th month)

Child responds to sounds in frequencies too high or low for adults to
hear.

See above

Now, although not legally a "human being" IMO they *should be* considered
"human beings" at this point.

6 months: Fine hair grows on eye brows & head. Eye-lash fringe appears.
Weight is about 640g (22 oz.), height 23 cm (9"). Babies born at this age
have survived.

Which, to me, is God's way of saying that in His opinion they are "human
beings"

7 months: Eye teeth are present. Eyelids open and close, eyes look
around. Hands grip strongly. Mother's voice is heard and recognized.

8 months: Weight increases by 1 kg. (over 2 lbs.) and baby's quarters get
cramped.

9 months: Child triggers labor and birth occurs, usually 255-275 days
after conception. Of 45 generations of cell divisions before adulthood,
41 have taken place. Four more will come during the rest of childhood and
adolescence

by that time the mother

wants to go full-term, if she is still pregnant. Do you not agree that
*self-defense* should be allowed, if continuing the pregnancy is going
to
kill her ?

I think ALL options should be considered and ALL opportunities to save
both mother and child should be taken.

I, guess unlike you, feel that the MOTHER should have the legal right to
decide when to initiate *self-defense* at the best, most survivable point
of pregnancy, once she is informed that she is most likely not going to
survive the pregnancy. (which means even before she is in the actual
danger)

Or are you one of those kill the mother if it will *maybe* save

the child types ?

I believe you answered this above, you ARE

<snip>

I have not called you any names, nor have I *tried* to insult you, I
have
called it as I see it.
Or am I to lie ?

You have. That puts me one up over you in the area of maturity.

We all have our opinions.

"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
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"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
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"Osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in message
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"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in
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<snip; some of the snipped here, is covered in another post>

such is an absolute mystery. I do

NOT think that ANYONE can kill a "human being" (without risking the
charge of murder) just by giving their consent.

Either you are talking some foriegn language in which words sound like
English but have some unusually strange meanings, or you are imagining
things which were never claimed.

No, you know what I am talking about.

You are talking non-sense, and attempting to call things what they aren't

<snip>

Nope, up until the 5th to sixth month it is unthinking living tessue,
much like an insect eating plant (it has some reflexes, but no brains)

Yep, from the moment of conception.

If you want to go literal Bible, don't jack off, because it begins with
your SEED (sperm) and you 'murder' thousands in one stroke

The fetus doesn't "magically" become a human being based on some time
clock.

No, it doesn't, legally,

called* such when awareness starts (but I would be talking your foriegn
language if I were to call them "human beings" before they legally ARE
"human beings")

A person? No, not by law.

Until, women no longer want an abortion, anyway, it isn't a person
scientifically either.

A human being, yes.

No, just tessue with human DNA, it is no more a *human being* than your
fingernail

That is exactly what I was saying earlier. You are demonstrating how a
pro-abortionist views a fetus, you have to view the fetus like that.

No, they are the facts, there is no "have to" about it

Or else you couldn't justify abortion.

And Conor was a viable human being. Now if Laci had given consent for
Conor to die, would you have approved?

Who is "Conor" ?

Why don't you ask the 12 juror's?

You lost me

<snip>

Never said it is never done, I said it isn't done unless the mother's
life is in danger.

Absolutely false.

Absolutely true

(your turn)

BTW my sister works in an abortion clinic (like me she *was* against
abortions until she learned what I had learned about it)

BTW I know many women who worked in abortion clinic's as well, in fact, a
student in one of my classes was once an employee at an abortion clinic.
When she saw what abortions truly look like, she became anti-abortion.

Yeah, Barby Dolls look very human, ever hear the saying "Looks can be
deceiving" ??

As well as other women I have personally heard say the same exact thing.
So now what???

Many doctors have come forth and testified the truth, that it does
happen.

Too rarely to piddle over.

You mean, you choose to ignore and look the other way.

I meant what I said,

abortions are done BEFORE there is aware fetuses,

the self-defense of the mother, after awareness *may* be present in the
fetus, and extreamly rare are they ever done otherwise

<snip>

It is??? So you are going to speak for all women?

YES !

Wow, what gall. You speaking for all women.

When you know the facts...(like)...

There are alway exceptions to every rule, but 99 plus % who are still

pregnant by the 5th month are so because they WANT a baby !

It doesn't take "gall" at all

<snip>

Fine with me, personally, I find letting such statements to get your
goat, to be a bit childish, myself.
Besides, when you are as old as I, any amount of "immaturity" I may
have, is seen as a GOOD thing (You are only as "old" as you allow
yourself to be)

Or am I to lie ?

You have. That puts me one up over you in the area of maturity.

We all have our opinions.