| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Steve Winter" |
| Date: |
02 Dec 2004 08:58:32 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
Thomas Hankin <thomas_hankin@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he
somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out,
"Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!" That is the only condition for
fellowship with Christ.
That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church.
The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38
salvation to become a Christian.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Tim 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and
vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of
the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all
principality and power:
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet
colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and
filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE
EARTH.
Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
03 Dec 2004 09:58:39 PM |
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Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message news:<1102042570.Tm9MRclPCZtSAcqQX1FDbw@teranews>...
Thomas Hankin <thomas_hankin@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he
somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out,
"Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!" That is the only condition for
fellowship with Christ.
That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church.
The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38
salvation to become a Christian.
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to
make them a Christian. They believed, they repented, their heart was
touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic. Jesus
said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is
baptized will believe or gets salvation. One needs to confess,
repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is
baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic. The Blood
of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water.
Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name
doesn't work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus
Christ. Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and
no amount of Water is going to make you clean. Only faith in the
Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9
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| User: "Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
04 Dec 2004 01:03:42 AM |
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(Raymond) spake thusly and wrote:
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to
make them a Christian.
Now do any of you Oneness brethren see why I rejected the
false-christian scum Raymond Knapp as a fake?
Read what the devil man Knapp has posted quoted above.
Now this filthy deceiving scum Knapp has been masquerading as a
"oneness missionary" for how long now?
Any of you dimbulbs who threw away your honor, integrity and
salvation to support reprobate Knapp feeling the least bit
embarrassed yet? If not, read the scum's words above. This
SHOWS in his own words what he believes!
Pastor Winter
--
"Winters, you are a blabbering heretic. In a truly godly
nation you would be executed for publicly promoting your
heretical doctrines." - Tom Albrecht trinitarian deceiver 2000
"Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) - Brian Boggs cultist 2000
"lying to mr. winter is just a defense" - Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999
"It isnt a salvation issue..." - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical holiness
"Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
"...God is Triune in nature..." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
",I did get saved in a Southern Baptist Church," - Raymond Knapp 2000
"..you will not fine Mother Teresa in Hell." - Raymond Knapp 2002
"Paul is not God, and never was God." - Knapp showing his contempt for the Word of God 2003
http://www.impsmail.org documents even criminal activity
http://www.pentecostal.biz Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal
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| User: "alt" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
04 Dec 2004 02:28:59 AM |
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Steve Winter wrote:
rwknapp@hotmail.com (Raymond) spake thusly and wrote:
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not
to make them a Christian.
Now do any of you Oneness brethren see why I rejected the
false-christian scum Raymond Knapp as a fake?
Read what the devil man Knapp has posted quoted above.
Now this filthy deceiving scum Knapp has been masquerading as a
"oneness missionary" for how long now?
Any of you dimbulbs who threw away your honor, integrity and
salvation to support reprobate Knapp feeling the least bit
embarrassed yet? If not, read the scum's words above. This
SHOWS in his own words what he believes!
I'm proud to call Ray a brother in Christ. He has rejected your "Water
Salvation" and is relying on Jesus as his saviour.
We may disagree on the nature of God, but we both trust in Jesus only!
(And I suspect we'll both be very surprised at God's true nature when
we see him. The limited human mind is wholly incapable of truly
understanding an unlimited God.)
I encourage anyone who is unsure about Acts 2:38 to read
http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/acts2.html and find out why this is
Satan's favourite bible verse.
John 5:24 — I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe
in God who sent me have eternal life. They will NEVER be condemned
for their sins, but have ALREADY passed from death to life. [Emphasis
mine]
Now you've heard it from the source, Jesus Christ.
(Now I await Steve's ritual denouncing of myself as "false-christian
scum".)
--
Donovan Hill
Canadian, Linux User, All around nice guy!
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| User: "Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
04 Dec 2004 02:41:09 PM |
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alt <spamtrap@lazyeyez.net> spake thusly and wrote:
I'm proud to call Ray a brother in Christ. He has rejected your "Water
Salvation" and is relying on Jesus as his saviour.
Well of course the deceiving false-christian scum regard Raymond
Knapp as a brother! That is because he IS your brother and you
scum both serve the same master.
Raymond Knapp teaches that Acts 2:38 is not really the plan of
salvation. No wonder the false-christian scum feel such a
kindred spirit with him.
Any of you weak minded, ungrounded, dimbulbs who threw away your
honor, integrity and salvation to join yourselves with Raymond
Knapp feeling the least bit embarrassed yet?
Raymond Knapp is no "oneness missionary". He is a LIAR and a
DEVIL and has been for YEARS!
Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "Apostolic Man" |
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| Title: acts 2:38 |
04 Dec 2004 06:21:49 PM |
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Acts 2:38
Satan's Favorite Bible Verse
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive
the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
The above verse of scripture is a favorite among many religious
groups. One can hear it several times on Sunday morning radio programs, as
well as from the pulpits of numerous groups, and it can be found in much
religious literature. The verse is a favorite because, on the surface, it
seemingly states that one must be baptized in order to be saved, and without
baptism one is not saved. So, those who believe that water baptism is
essential for salvation make it a regular habit of using Acts 2:38 as
scriptural support.
The problem is that Acts 2:38 isn't the only verse in the Bible which
deals with salvation. While many claim to "speak where the scriptures speak
and remain silent where the scriptures are silent," they practically ignore
most of the New Testament teaching on salvation. The only verses that such
false teachers quote and reference are the ones they feel they can use to
promote their "water gospel." The fact is that most of what the New
Testament says about salvation doesn't include baptism at all! (John 5:24,
John 11:25-26, John 14:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 10:9-13, Eph. 2:8-9, etc.), and
the few places that do mention water baptism do not include it as part of
one's salvation. Water baptism follows salvation as one of the first steps
of obedience for the new believer.
In spite of this obvious truth, the cultists remain steadfast in their
heresy, insisting that Acts 2:38 sets forth water baptism as a requirement
for salvation. Thus, this verse of scripture has become Satan's favorite
Bible verse. In fact, many are trusting water baptism alone for the
salvation of their souls! Indeed, Satan has deceived multitudes by his
perversion of Acts 2:38.
Rather than ignore Acts 2:38 by quoting "our favorite verses" instead,
it is more appropriate to facethis popular verse of scripture and see if the
cultists are right in what they claim it teaches.
The Truth about Acts 2:38
First, please notice that verse 38 isn't the only verse in Acts 2. In
Peter's message, a great deal was said before verse 38 came out of his
mouth. In fact, he even told his listeners how to be saved before verse 38!
In Acts 2:21, Peter quotes from Joel 2 and says, "And it shall come to pass,
that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." His words
preceding verse 38 were so convicting that his listeners were "pricked in
their heart" in verse 37. So, to use verse 38 out of its context causes a
misrepresentation of God's word. The verse does not stand alone, and, in
fact, a totally different meaning is conveyed when one makes it stand alone.
Another error that many make with Acts 2:38 is the error of
assumption. It is assumed that the word "for" must mean "in order to get."
That is, being baptized "for" the remission of sins supposedly means to be
baptized "in order to get" remission of sins. However, a closer look at the
scriptures will reveal that this isn't the case at all.
Notice Luke 5:12-14: "And it came to pass, when he was in a certain
city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and
besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he
put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And
immediately the leprosy departed from him. And he charged him to tell no
man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing,
according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them." Jesus made this
man clean in verse 13, yet in the next verse, verse 14, Jesus tells him to
go offer a sacrifice "for thy cleansing" as a "testimony." Here the word
"for" cannot mean "in order to get" because he had already gotten his
cleansing in verse 13! It obviously meant "because of" his cleansing. If a
man goes to jail "for stealing," then he goes there "because of" the
stealing that he's already done, not "in order to get" a chance to steal
again.
Some like to argue that the Greek word "eis" means "in order to," but
this isn't always the case. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41, "The men of Nineveh
shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because
they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than
Jonas is here." The Greek word for "at" is "eis." Does this mean that the
men of Nineveh repented "in order to get" the preaching of Jonah? No, they
repented "because of" the preaching of Jonah. So, even "the Greek" doesn't
demand the popular interpretation of Acts 2:38. The word "for" can be used
different ways, not just one, so it is wrong to assume that it must mean "in
order to get" in Acts 2:38.
Another factor which is commonly ignored is the JEWISH factor. Every
person in Acts 2 is a Mosaic law observing Old Testament Jew. In fact, they
are all gathered together to observe a JEWISH FEAST called Pentecost (verse
1). A fair reading of the whole chapter (especially verses 4, 14, and 36)
will clearly reveal that no Gentiles (non Jews) are present. Since this
involves Jews, it involves a NATION (verse 36!!), not individuals. No one
asked, "What must I do to be saved?" The question asked concerned the NATION
of Israel: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (verse 37) Not, "What shall
I do," but rather, "What shall WE do?" Acts 2 presents a NATION of people
who come to realize that they have murdered their blessed Messiah and
they're asking what THEY must do. It's a question concerning NATIONAL
salvation. Isaiah 66:8 says, ". . . shall a nation be born at once? for as
soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children." The "nation" is
Israel! Romans 11:26 says, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away
ungodliness from Jacob." Acts 2:38 is dealing with NATIONAL salvation. The
Messianic Kingdom is still available to the Jews (until Acts 7:60 when they
kill Stephen), so national salvation remains an issue until then.
This is clear from what follows Acts 7. In Acts 8, an individual from
Africa is saved (before baptism). In Acts 9, an individual from Asia is
saved (before baptism). In Acts 10, an individual from Europe is saved
(before baptism). Why didn't these individual conversions occur before Acts
7? Because the first seven chapter of Acts deal with Israel (1:6-8; 2:36;
3:12; 4:8-10; 5:31; 6:7-14; 7:1-60). The question of INDIVIDUAL salvation is
asked and answered in Acts 16:30-31: ". . . Sirs, what must I do to be
saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
saved, and thy house." Those who fail to make this distinction are guilty of
violating II Timothy 2:15 where we are told to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of
truth.
The Bible says the gospel is to go to the Jew FIRST (Rom. 1:16), so
they are the FIRST to receive the gospel in the book of Acts (chapter 2),
but they are not the last to receive it. Acts doesn't end with chapter 2, so
we should be cautious of anyone who develops their doctrine in Acts 2 while
practically ignoring the next 26 chapters! If God didn't stop in Acts 2,
then why does anyone else? Could it be that the later chapters in Acts
contain information which the cultists want hidden from us? Could it be that
there are other scriptures in Acts which do not agree with the wording of
Acts 2:38? Could it be that Peter himself, the one preaching in Acts 2:38,
says something different when speaking to individual Gentiles like you and
me? One only has to read Acts chapter 10 to get the answer. Peter is
preaching again in Acts 10, except only to individual Gentiles, and
something very interesting occurs. In Acts 2:38, the Holy Ghost was promised
to be given to the converts AFTER they were baptized, yet in Acts 10:44 the
Holy Ghost falls upon the Gentiles BEFORE they are baptized! Now, Paul tells
us in Romans 8:9, " . . .if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is
none of his." Having God's Spirit is synonymous with belonging to God or
being saved (John 3:6-8), so the Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved BEFORE they
were baptized in water. Why don't the Acts 2:38 cultists ever point this
out? Answer: It destroys their perverted doctrine that water baptism is
essential for salvation.
The fact is that Acts 2:38 is NOT the "model" plan of salvation, nor
are any of the other "water verses" which the cultists use. Only by taking
such verses out of their context can one teach such heresy. All of the Bible
is true, not just the favorite "proof texts" of the cults. Baptism saves no
one. It only serves as a testimonial picture of the death, the burial, and
the resurrection of Jesus Christ AFTER one has believed on Christ (Acts
8:36-38). Paul said in I Corinthians 1:17 that ". . . Christ sent me not to
baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross
of Christ should be made of none effect." This "gospel" is defined by Paul
in I Corinthians 15:1-4, and it does NOT include water baptism. The dying
thief was not baptized, yet Jesus saved him (Luke 23:42-43), and John wrote
that we are washed in the BLOOD of Christ (Rev. 1:5), not in the water. In
fact, the saints in Heaven claim to have gotten there by the blood of Jesus
(Rev. 5:9), not by water. By faith in the blood of Jesus Christ one is saved
(Rom. 3:25). Water baptism only follows this faith as an outward step of
obedience.
Friend, if you have fallen for the water gospel, why not repent of
your sin and trust Jesus Christ alone? Acts 10:43 says, "To him give all the
prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall
receive remission of sins." Why not believe on Christ 100% right now and
quit trusting something you DO for salvation? "Therefore being justified by
faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:1)
Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should
boast." Romans 10:9-13 says,"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the
Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the
scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there
is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all
is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name
of the Lord shall be saved." Why not right now?
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| User: "Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: acts 2:38 |
05 Dec 2004 02:20:12 PM |
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"Apostolic Man" <jkinney@aol.com> spake thusly and wrote:
The problem is that Acts 2:38 isn't the only verse in the Bible which
deals with salvation.
When false-christian dirt reject Acts 2:38, it won't matter what
they do with the rest of the verses.
A minister of Satan calling himself "Apostolic Man" while
teaching disobedience to what the Apostles taught.
Ever wonder why deceivers, and fake christians in general, single
out Acts 2:38 as the verse that "need not be obeyed"? It is
because Acts 2:38 is the plan of salvation for the new testament
church. Notice that Jesus had personally given Peter the keys to
the kingdom of heaven:
Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in
heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed
in heaven.
Let us also notice that when sinners were "pricked in their
hearts" and asked Peter what they could do, that Peter unlocked
the kingdom of heaven for "as many as the Lord our God shall
call"
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both
Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their
heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men
[and] brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and
to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God
shall call.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added [unto them] about three
thousand souls.
Notice, there were 3000 there that elected to have their sins
remitted. So you better believe that the minister of Satan will
do just about anything that he can to try to downplay Acts 2:38.
Paul mentions that there will be those that come along and preach
"another gospel."
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any
other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.
Paul also didn't leave us in ignorance that when Satan's
ministers come, they come masquerading as "ministers of
righteousness", as smooth talking false preachers saying "Just
claim belief and you are saved."
II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful
workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is
transformed into an angel of light.
II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his
ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;
whose end shall be according to their works.
It is the job of the false preacher to cause YOU to be among
those that don't obey Acts 2:38.
II Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty
angels,
II Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them
that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus
Christ:
Notice that there are TWO groups mentioned in verse 8, those that
don't know God, AND those that know him BUT REFUSE TO OBEY HIM.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of
his power;
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only,
deceiving your own selves.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of
eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and
wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Water Baptism in Jesus name remits sins BECAUSE of Jesus finished
work on the cross. It is the re-birth of water (see John 3:5).
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call
his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
saved.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into
Christ have put on Christ.
The devil's servants don't want you to "put on Christ". They
want you to reject Jesus name baptism. Is the man in the pulpit
of your church just there to soothe you into hell? Is your
preacher stressing the URGENCY of obeying the Bible or is
he/she/it selling a fable of a false grace that ignores obedience
to the Bible.
II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and
doctrine.
II Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears;
II Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the
truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Is your preacher preaching Acts 2:38, or soothing fables?
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "brian" |
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| Title: Re: acts 2:38 |
06 Dec 2004 01:25:29 AM |
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<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:tq57r09ol0m38okvfduu9ei0bp0dq8v1mj@4ax.com...
Hello Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org>,
snip
To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt." You are no more
qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is.
in the Name of Jesus Christ,]
Christian
First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he
has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not think
like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian, from an
historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has been spilled
in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no meaning at all but
I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no meaning.
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| User: "brian" |
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| Title: Re: acts 2:38 |
06 Dec 2004 02:57:14 AM |
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"brian" <whatisti@whoamI.Idontknow> wrote in message
news:JPTsd.55132$QJ3.49063@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
<christian@velocitus.net> wrote in message
news:tq57r09ol0m38okvfduu9ei0bp0dq8v1mj@4ax.com...
Hello Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org>,
snip
To you, ALL CHRISTIANS are "fales-christian dirt." You are no more
qualified to be a pastor than satan himself is.
in the Name of Jesus Christ,]
Christian
First Christian you see you fell for this guys fake follow-up game that he
has played for years. Second of course he thinks all those who do not
think like him are false Christian scum, that is actually quite Christian,
from an historic perspective. I have often wondered how much blood has
been spilled in the name of Jesus. Of course I understand that has no
meaning at all but I find it rather sad. Which of course also has no
meaning.
PS I forgot to add, mercy is for the weak and weakness will never be
tolerated. I have always wondered why they only people loved by Jesus are
those who do not need him ? Oh for the good pastor yes scum, false christian
scum anon christian scum etc.
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| User: "Mike Rhodes" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
04 Dec 2004 01:25:42 PM |
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On 3 Dec 2004 19:58:39 -0800, (Raymond) wrote:
Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message news:<1102042570.Tm9MRclPCZtSAcqQX1FDbw@teranews>...
Thomas Hankin <thomas_hankin@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he
somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out,
"Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!" That is the only condition for
fellowship with Christ.
That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church.
The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38
salvation to become a Christian.
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to
make them a Christian. They believed, they repented, their heart was
touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic. Jesus
said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is
baptized will believe or gets salvation. One needs to confess,
repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is
baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic. The Blood
of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water.
Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have
spoken to you." But He was also inspirational towards ourselves
picking out the logs in our own eyes. And He began His ministry
calling us to repent. And He baptized in water. Jesus Himself was
baptized. So who are you to reject water? What _teacher_ before you
ever has?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of
God."
This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and
it is not a hard thing to do. It means something. For Jesus it is
when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke... Mat 3:16-17 And
Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the
heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21 "...which figure now also saves us,
baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer
of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus
Christ;..."
John wrote, 1 John 5:6 "This is He who came through water and blood,
Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the
Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
I write this one for Steve's sake, for I think that was John's
intent. But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not
tire of hearing? By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your
words "blood (alone)" ? And in so doing, does this not do harm? Is
the harm not your cause and not ours?
--Mike
Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name
The thorny Steve Winter a 'perfect example'?
doesn't work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus
Christ. Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and
no amount of Water is going to make you clean. Only faith in the
Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9
I really think you should consider your use of the word 'only'. I've
seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you,
when it is not so written in the Gospel.
--Mike
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| User: "Steve Winter" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
14 Dec 2004 10:31:03 PM |
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"Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake
thusly and wrote:
Ever her of a mother *breaking water* just before giving birth ?
You false-christian scum really think that just "explains away"
baptism? Babies are not born "of water", maybe fish are.
I hope to herein expose one of the filthiest lies that false
preachers are teaching these days. If I seem emotional, it's
just that I hate to see people so deceived. In John 3:5, Jesus
told a full grown man that he needed to be born again of a
spiritual birth which consisted of water and spirit...(notice two
distinct elements WATER and SPIRIT)..
Satan has many misinformed, and some knowingly deceiving false
preachers that teach that the "birth of the water" refers to a
man's physical birth (since there is a watery fluid involved at
birth). That teaching is one of the cheapest, cop out,
deceptions in Satan's arsenal to deceive people about the
IMPORTANCE of baptism.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God.
* Notice that Jesus was declaring what a MAN had to do (not a
baby), and that Jesus was referring to a RE-BIRTH; being BORN
AGAIN. He could not have been referring to the fluids of a
baby's birth. HE was telling a grown MAN how to be BORN AGAIN.
Oh, it sounds real convincing to look at it as "physical birth",
unless you consider that he was talking to a MAN, a grown MAN
telling him how to be RE-BORN (spiritually). And if that isn't
enough to convince you, then just look at how WATER and
SPIRIT are BOTH elements in the plan of salvation that was
preached at the birth of the church:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
* Baptism is what washes away sins!!! Look at this next verse: *
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and
wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Then, if you are still not convinced let's look at another verse
that Jesus spoke (and I certainly pray that you will not suggest
that a non-believer would even consider baptism).
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but
he that believeth not shall be damned.
Look how the same God that said Water was part of the RE-BIRTH
also declared "and is baptized" How could the Bible be any
clearer?
Remember! Jesus was talking to a GROWN MAN telling him about a
RE-BIRTH, and as a matter of fact babies are born IN water NOT
'OF' Water..
DON'T BE DECEIVED into a comfortable disobedience of the Bible by
these Satanic false-christian dirt!
Pastor sTeve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
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| User: "Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
05 Dec 2004 04:08:26 PM |
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Mike Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<m924r01r9cbknu5uag85lcp0qtrrp2n45v@4ax.com>...
On 3 Dec 2004 19:58:39 -0800, (Raymond) wrote:
Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message news:<1102042570.Tm9MRclPCZtSAcqQX1FDbw@teranews>...
Thomas Hankin <thomas_hankin@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he
somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried out,
"Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!" That is the only condition for
fellowship with Christ.
That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church.
The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38
salvation to become a Christian.
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to
make them a Christian. They believed, they repented, their heart was
touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic. Jesus
said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is
baptized will believe or gets salvation. One needs to confess,
repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is
baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic. The Blood
of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water.
Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have
spoken to you." But He was also inspirational towards ourselves
picking out the logs in our own eyes. And He began His ministry
calling us to repent. And He baptized in water. Jesus Himself was
baptized. So who are you to reject water? What _teacher_ before you
ever has?
To start with, you qouted "clean through the Word which I have spoken"
there is no water in this, but the Word. Faith in the Word. Then it
baptism is important, but it is not the blood and it does not save by
itself. Did Jesus have sin? I think not so water baptism did not
forgive his sin's as he had none. I never rejected water, or baptism
in water, only obeject when people try to make the water take the
place of the Blood of Jesus, and so His death and Cross. Which would
of been a waste, since they had water baptism before the Cross.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of
God."
This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and
it is not a hard thing to do. It means something. For Jesus it is
when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke... Mat 3:16-17 And
Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the
heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21 "...which figure now also saves us,
baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer
of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus
Christ;..."
John wrote, 1 John 5:6 "This is He who came through water and blood,
Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the
Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
I write this one for Steve's sake, for I think that was John's
intent. But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not
tire of hearing? By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your
words "blood (alone)" ? And in so doing, does this not do harm? Is
the harm not your cause and not ours?
--Mike
Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name
The thorny Steve Winter a 'perfect example'?
Yes of one that trust in water and what a preacher does, by putting
one into the water, which with out the blood is a wet sinner, in and a
wet sinner out of the water. The blood and faith in the Blood and the
action of Christ Jesus on the Cross is what brings a person to the
blood and salvation, then they like on the day of Pentecost will ask
what must we do, and then they are baptized because they did believe
in the Son of God, Jesus. Baptism does not make a believer it is for
them that believed, as in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved.... Hope that clears things up.
Raymond
doesn't work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus
Christ. Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and
no amount of Water is going to make you clean. Only faith in the
Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9
I really think you should consider your use of the word 'only'. I've
seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you,
when it is not so written in the Gospel.
--Mike
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| User: "Mike Rhodes" |
|
| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
05 Dec 2004 10:16:31 PM |
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On 5 Dec 2004 14:08:26 -0800, (Raymond) wrote:
Mike Rhodes <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<m924r01r9cbknu5uag85lcp0qtrrp2n45v@4ax.com>...
On 3 Dec 2004 19:58:39 -0800, (Raymond) wrote:
[trim]
Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have
spoken to you." But He was also inspirational towards ourselves
picking out the logs in our own eyes. And He began His ministry
calling us to repent. And He baptized in water. Jesus Himself was
baptized. So who are you to reject water? What _teacher_ before you
ever has?
To start with, you qouted "clean through the Word which I have spoken"
there is no water in this, but the Word. Faith in the Word. Then it
baptism is important, but it is not the blood and it does not save by
itself. Did Jesus have sin? I think not so water baptism did not
forgive his sin's as he had none. I never rejected water, or baptism
in water, only obeject when people try to make the water take the
place of the Blood of Jesus, and so His death and Cross. Which would
of been a waste, since they had water baptism before the Cross.
No, I think you reject water. For nobody is trying to use water to
take the place of Christ's shed blood. And, physically speaking, that
blood is not here, nor was anyone physically washed in it, so I can't
see your argument. As for how we deal with His Blood physically, it
is by taking the Lord's Supper.
Again, Christ said the words below. And please re-read my comments
beneath the quote.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of
God."
This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and
it is not a hard thing to do. It means something. For Jesus it is
when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke... Mat 3:16-17 And
Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the
heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21 "...which figure now also saves us,
baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer
of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus
Christ;..."
John wrote, 1 John 5:6 "This is He who came through water and blood,
Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the
Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
I write this one for Steve's sake, for I think that was John's
intent. But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not
tire of hearing? By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your
words "blood (alone)" ? And in so doing, does this not do harm? Is
the harm not your cause and not ours?
Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name
The thorny Steve Winter a 'perfect example'?
Yes of one that trust in water and what a preacher does, by putting
one into the water, which with out the blood is a wet sinner, in and a
wet sinner out of the water.
The problem with Winter is Winter. AND that so many reject baptism
outright. So he thinks he's got an argument he can't lose. You are,
in effect, using (or allowing) Winter to curse water, and it suits
your theology.
The blood and faith in the Blood and the
action of Christ Jesus on the Cross is what brings a person to the
blood and salvation,
I believe it is a penitent heart and obediance that bring a person to
salvation. These are out of an active faith.
May I suggest that you do a word search in the gospels to see what
Christ said about His blood, and temper your theology around His
words. And other words concerning other matters also.
then they like on the day of Pentecost will ask
what must we do, and then they are baptized because they did believe
in the Son of God, Jesus. Baptism does not make a believer it is for
them that believed, as in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved.... Hope that clears things up.
No.
Raymond
doesn't work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus
Christ. Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and
no amount of Water is going to make you clean. Only faith in the
Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9
Again, I repeat...
I really think you should consider your use of the word 'only'. I've
seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you,
when it is not so written in the Gospel.
I think many Protestants are proud of their 'Solas'. 'Only' Grace (no
merit), 'only' Faith (not works), 'only' Scripture (not traditions).
When scripture, except for PAUL ALONE, is not so definitive. Paul was
too definitive, he even got it wrong.
Christ never taught grace. Did you know that? And Christ has His
thoughts on work. Are you even aware of them? Did you know that in
Matt 20:1-16 Christ taught heaven as payment for work? Mat 20:1 "For
the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that was a householder, who
went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard."
This is a different approach than Paul's.
They worry me, those who spend so much time in blood, and want to
spatter it around so. Do you revel in the death? Let us not gather
around the cross like hounds to lap it up. (I'm only trying to be
practical, and not denying anything.) I don't think you have a grasp
of what you are proclaiming, and it is doing damage.
--Mike
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| User: "Mike Rhodes" |
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| Title: Re: Take This Poor Indian Too |
14 Dec 2004 10:46:36 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:59:46 -0600, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:
Ever her of a mother *breaking water* just before giving birth ?
Where does the birth water come into the story? Given that baptism was
the habit with his ministry, and that little was stated to defend it,
then the inference is straightforward as to what was meant by water.
They baptised, so I want to ask why, and if it were important. I must
accept this verse as an answer to that question. Otherwise it would
appear that I would be intentionally trying to deflect it.
Baptism is an acknowledgement that we need a washing by God, for the
logic isn't such a mystery; (and as Peter wrote). But we are to be
different than we were before. We aren't the same individuals who now
have access to a washing in His blood. So baptism is part of the
rebirth to newness.
As for its defense, the clearest is that baptism of the Lord Himself.
For it was then when the Father spoke, saying "This is my beloved
Son...", and the Holy Spirit decended at that moment. From this it is
obvious that God, as Christ, takes baptism seriously. And I must be
concerned when others teach to ignore it.
That baptism has been abused by some (so I've heard but not seen) is
not a condemnation of baptism, or its requirement, but that of man.
The answer Christ gave is, "of water, and of the Spirit." By water is
a step we can take simply. But by the Spirit is by Christ's will.
Obedience to His commandments was the requirement unto which He would
pray the Father that He send another Comforter. (John 14:15-16, also
verses 13-14) That the Spirit decended upon Christ after His baptism
is a confirmation that event was obedience to God. (But we know his
obedience was not completed then.)
That baptism is even taught to be ignored is proof of how far the
church has left the Gospel. Though it does take some effort, baptism
is not burdensome in itself; except that it is a step into faith. Man
instinctively wants to rebel at that, for they are not 'in control'
afterwards. Maybe some were dissappointed by their own baptism, and
sought to condemn it, rather than seeking the Lord that He may
complete it. But the completion is His option, which does depend on
our convictions, which are not without thoughts and actions. Wait on
the Lord, and don't just wait. And don't accuse baptism for putting
you in the position of waiting.
--Mike
"Mike Rhodes" <mrhodes_47-nosp-@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m924r01r9cbknu5uag85lcp0qtrrp2n45v@4ax.com...
On 3 Dec 2004 19:58:39 -0800, (Raymond) wrote:
Steve Winter <steve.NO-SPAM@prime.org> wrote in message
news:<1102042570.Tm9MRclPCZtSAcqQX1FDbw@teranews>...
Thomas Hankin <thomas_hankin@yahoo.com> spake thusly and wrote:
At this the chief seemed utterly oppressed; but suddenly he
somehow sensed the deficiency, for, lifting up tearful eyes, he cried
out,
"Here, Lord, take this poor Indian too!" That is the only condition
for
fellowship with Christ.
That is an interesting fable, but a lie from the false church.
The condition for fellowship with Christ is to obey His Acts 2:38
salvation to become a Christian.
That is your fable! Acts 2:38 is for baptism of the believer, not to
make them a Christian. They believed, they repented, their heart was
touched by the Spirit all before they were Baptized, Heretic. Jesus
said in Mark, He that believeth and is baptized, not he that is
baptized will believe or gets salvation. One needs to confess,
repent, believe, have faith, trust, ask for forgiveness and then is
baptized for the remission of their sins, you old Heretic. The Blood
of Jesus saves and takes away cleans sin, not a baptism in water.
Jesus said, John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the Word which I have
spoken to you." But He was also inspirational towards ourselves
picking out the logs in our own eyes. And He began His ministry
calling us to repent. And He baptized in water. Jesus Himself was
baptized. So who are you to reject water? What _teacher_ before you
ever has?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of
God."
This command is in keeping with the practices of His ministry, and
it is not a hard thing to do. It means something. For Jesus it is
when the Holy Spirit descended, and God spoke... Mat 3:16-17 And
Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and
lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God
descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the
heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Peter wrote, 1 Peter 3:21 "...which figure now also saves us,
baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer
of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus
Christ;..."
John wrote, 1 John 5:6 "This is He who came through water and blood,
Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by the water and blood. And the
Spirit is He who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
I write this one for Steve's sake, for I think that was John's
intent. But if we hear the word "blood" so often then do our ears not
tire of hearing? By the Gospel, are we not forced to reject your
words "blood (alone)" ? And in so doing, does this not do harm? Is
the harm not your cause and not ours?
--Mike
Then you are the perfect example that water only even in Jesus name
The thorny Steve Winter a 'perfect example'?
doesn't work if one has not repented and is a believer in Jesus
Christ. Your terms and ungodly terms, shows how sinful you are, and
no amount of Water is going to make you clean. Only faith in the
Blood can remove sin, 1 John 1:7-9
I really think you should consider your use of the word 'only'. I've
seen that word used, and rather often, by those who argue like you,
when it is not so written in the Gospel.
--Mike
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