Religions > Bible > Re: The Book of Job - Leviathan (not God) is the Reason for Job's Suffering
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Religions > Bible |
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"Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
| Date: |
04 Dec 2006 05:53:26 AM |
| Object: |
Re: The Book of Job - Leviathan (not God) is the Reason for Job's Suffering |
Linda Lee wrote:
Kater Moggin wrote:
Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] <hasatan@grex.cyberspace.org>:
yes referring to chess players who become emotionally involved with the
chess pieces.
discussion is over in any case.
Both you and "Mr. Ha" are both incredibly redundant and both of your
assertions and misinterpretations are without any support from the
texts or from any resource books.
more of your mental derangement,
as when i use "nothing forthcoming from you or Moggin" as a phrase and
then lo and behold you are soon imitating my phrase telling your friend
Moggin "nothing forthcoming" etc
i.e. i see it as mental problems.
in any case here we go: the scriptures and your claim that this
aquatic organism is really "THE DEVIL" and that the posuk is speaking
of his "brood"
and the claim you reserched the "orginal languages" for thirteen years
in order to produce your "Hidden Word" is obviously a lie since you
have utterly mistaken the meaning in Job 42 to be the opposite of what
it reads.
as we shall see below.
Furthermore, you both ignore much of
the book of Job, concerning this being the land of the shadow of death
and especially concerning leviathan, which is essential to understand
as it is God's answer to Job.
"Braughler" is cantcy who pipes up with his opinion, on a regular
basis, that "Mr. Ha's" position is correct, as does Richard.
REFERENCES USED :
1. LULU PRESS LINDA LEE _THE AMAZING GRACE OF THE HIDDEN WORD_ by Linda
--apparently one must fork over cash to read it, but i am using her
exceprts as posted --which amount to a completely unsupported proposal
that Job 42 is about some "Devil"
2. Hebrew TNK Leningrad Codex, BHS and Greek Septuagint
3. some elementary information about snakes, dragons and ancient
astronomy
first of all, what is being claimed here except that "Leviathan"
so-called is none other than the alleged (Christian) New Testament
Devil, in his alleged capacity as chief mutineer against the throne of
the New Testament "God".
we could easily dismiss the reintepretation for this context alone.
in any case, you [Linda Lee] are even confused about the meaning of the
word itself.
[Masoretic] `liv-ya-tan` lamed-vav-yud-tav-nun-sofit [Michigan
Claremont LwytN ]
"twisted in folds" or "coiled" i.e. adjective
that it refers to an ichthyc aquatic animal is in no doubt:
http://www.tanach.us/Tanach.xml
Job 3:8 let them curse it that curse the day who are ready to raise up
`arra` [ayin-resh-resh excite/arouse/awake, as in Iyov 8:6, 14:12,
17:8, 31:29, 41:40 --which we shall see in a moment, as well as
Tehilim/Psalms 7:6, 44:23 and 73:20 as well as many other instances ]
`Livyatan` i.e. 'excite/awaken Livyatan'
for the Strong's addicts (we won't mention any names)
here is the BHSSTR ( e=ayin a=aleph)
<06264> Mydyteh <03117> Mwy <0779> yrra <05344> whbqy
<03882> Ntywl <05782> rre
The septuagint renders the passage
alla katarasaito authn o katarwmenov
thn hmeran ekeinhn o mellwn
to mega khtov xeirwsasqai
khtov seems to be derived from 'yawning chasm/ a gaping opening'
thus, the MEGA-yawning or gaping opening, depicting the monstrous mouth
of the ichthyc organism ; it is proportionally huge and therefore
terrifying.
now that one has examined a few vocabulary words in the passage it is
time to reinsert it back into CONTEXT and see what sort of outcome this
produces.
in english,
"Let the day perish where i was born,...
Let that day be darkness ...
Let darkness and the shadow of death claim it for their own...
As for that night, let thick darkness seize upon it ...
Lo, let that night be desolate ...
Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to rouse up
leviathan --Because it shut not up the doors of my [mother's] womb, nor
hid trouble from mine eyes."
THUS the assocation with "swallowing up" the day and night wherein Iyov
was born.
how does a 'coiled one' or 'one of twisted folds' swallow up the day
and night ?
Apparently a veiled or once-removed reference (i.e. Iyov refers to the
legendary creature, the creature refers to something else), to ancient
semitic astronomy, inherited from the Mesopotamian astronomy,
where the symbol of the 'coiled one' is associated with solar eclipse.
(Therefore the darkness and swallowing up, disappearing of)
Etmologically we see `levyitan` refers to an ichthyc / aquatic monster
with a terrifying MEGA- 'gaping opening',
historically we see it was a reference to astronomy /heavenly events.
cf. Syrian or Mandaic Aramaic equivalents for "dragon"
how does his harmonize (if at all) with any other instances in the
TaNaKh ?
tehila/ Psalm 74:14
BHSSTR(u=`tzade`)
<03882> Ntywl <07218> ysar <07533> tuur <0859> hta
<06728> Myyul <05971> Mel <03978> lkam <05414> wnntt
LXXM (reference only)
su {<4771> P-NS} suneylasav {<4917> V-AAI-2S} tav {<3588> T-APF}
kefalav {<2776> N-APF} tou {<3588> T-GSM} drakontov {<1404> N-GSM}
edwkav {<1325> V-AAI-2S} auton {<846> D-ASM} brwma {<1033> N-ASN}
laoiv {<2992> N-DPM} toiv {<3588> T-DPM} aiyioqin {<128> N-DPM}
`rtzatz-ta rashi Liv-yatan` (or `Loy-atan` )
you are (after) having crushed (the) HEADS of Livyatan
`titnanu mekaL LaM LTziyim`
bestowed meat/food for the people desert (denizens of the desert)
Apparently the deity smashed the heads of this ichthyc/aquatic MEGA-
'gaping opening' organism and gave its meat to the desert denizens
---i.e. the monster is no more.
tehila / Psalm 104:26
BHSSTR
<03882> Ntywl <01980> Nwklhy <0591> twyna <08033> Ms
<0> wb <07832> qxvl <03335> truy <02088> hz
LXXM (for reference)
ekei {<1563> ADV} ploia {<4143> N-APN} diaporeuontai {<1279> V-PMI-3P}
drakwn {<1404> N-NSM} outov {<3778> D-NSM} on {<3739> R-ASM} eplasav
{<4111> V-AAI-2S} empaizein {<1702> V-PAN} autw {<846> D-DSM}
`sham enayot yiLeikut`
there go the ships
`Livyatan zeh yatzerta Lshachaq bno`
Livyatan - it - made/formed by thee - for to play/make sport
septuagint also uses `plasso` -formed
`yatzera` as in bereshit/Genesis 2:7
Apparently this creature was made thus,
its very PURPOSE at creation,
that is, TO BE an ichthyc /aquatic organism (i.e. not a screen identity
for another creature), to "make sport" (as in to play or even
"skirmish" in the sea).
(And if it be "evil" then yet another example of the creator creating
something evil and placing it in position to do evil.)
This now brings us to the septuagint rendering of `drakwv` which i did
not address in Tehila/Psalm 74 above ;
(undoubtedly one of the sources of post-exilic reinterpreted Persian
messianic hysteria and association with Devil/Ahriman etc)
in the first place we are not concerned with modern english concepts of
"dragon" and their etymologies and relation to words such as "dragoon"
"dragonder" etc
whatever their relation, they are irrelevant.
the question might be, why would Greek speakers render `livyatan` as
`drakwv` and the answer is quite simple, the ichthyc/aquatic organism
is
"Draco, the Dragon, is a splendid constellation made up of fifteen or
so stars. It circles around the North Pole. It is a long figure
covering a large part of the northern sky, and in proper dragon
fashion, it twists this way and that. Except for those stars that form
Draco's eyes, the stars of this constellation are not very bright.
Consequently, it is quite an achievement to follow the meandering curve
of the grotesque body of the Dragon as it winds its way between the
Great Bear and the Little Bear. The constellation is circumpolar; not
far from the North Pole. In fact Thuban (alpha Draconis) was once the
Pole Star. Quite fittingly, Hercules (Heracles) is just to the east of
Draco (see 11th labor). Some cartographers actually draw the figure of
Hercules with one foot resting on the head of Draco. [NPS p.237, SLM
p.202].
Dragons abound in myths from many lands. Many of those myths describe
how the world was formed, with a dragon playing the star role. Draco
comes from the word meaning to see or watch, and the dragon is often
guarding something such as the golden apples in the garden of the
Hesperides. To win the treasure, the monster guarding it has to be
overcome. Usually a horrible dragon-monster must be slain by one of the
young gods of the new order. The warrior-god who is successful, then
fashions the Universe out of the hacked-up bits and pieces of the
dragon-monster. [NPS p.237].
There are three well known stories of the Dragon which all relate to
this constellation. " et cetera
This corresponds to the `livyatan` we saw in sefer Iyov 3:8 which
represents the eclipse (of things, of anything), but with an additional
attribute implied via the Greek myth 'seeing' thus the word is cognate
with Sanskrit.
So, one might ask, why is the Greek scribe using different words for
instances of the same hebrew word ?
well that question might be asked of English translators and their
derivative "prophetesses" who are `drako` "seeing" things in the text
which are not there.
but to answer the question why two Greek words are used for one Hebrew
word one need not fault the Greek scribes or judge too harshly since
the Greek translator captured the essence of Iyov 3:8 by emphasizing
the consumptive vastness of the jaws of the ichthyc monster, as
indicated by other instance os `khtov` "ketos"
cf. all instances of the word `khtov` in the septuagint and notice the
correspondence to hebrew `taniyn`, the apparently monstrous aquatic
snake.
and in Psalms 74 and 104 `drakwv`
"Draco was described in the Shield of Hercules, with the two Dogs, the
Hare, Orion, and Perseus, as "The scaly horror of a dragon, coiled,
full in the central field"."
--Christian view of the constellation Draco: The Witness of the Stars,
E.W. Bullinger, 1893.
"The Legend of Draco
Draco the Dragon: star group that twists between the constellations of
the Great Bear and the Little Bear. Its star, Thuban, found within the
body of the dragon, was once the pole star. Draco's strange, winding
shape can be explained if Thuban and the rest of the sky is precessed
back to their respective positions in the time of ancient Egypt.
Draco's body joins with that of the snake held by Ophiuchus, which in
turn connects to Hydra. Hydra delineated the celestial equator, and
Ophiuchus' serpent followed the equator until it intersected the
meridian of the fall equinox. It then bent in a right angle and
followed the meridian at the base of Draco's tail until it marked the
zenith with the pole star at Thuban. The upper coils and head of the
beast wrapping about the pole star. By astronomical chance, the
Dragon's Head and Dragon's Tail marked the positions of the lunar
nodes, those points where the paths of the solar and lunar orbits
intersect and where solar and lunar eclipses may occur. The Dragon's
head refers to the ascending node, the Dragon's tail the descending
node. In several cultures, an eclipse was attributed to the
disappearance of the moon or sun as they were swallowed by a dragon.
The fact that the stars of this circumpolar constellation never set
plays an important part in its mythologies."
(cf. Hobbes , the title of his book "Leviathan")
"Greece: representation of the vigilant dragon that protected the
golden apples of the Hesperides, as well as the dragon who guarded the
Golden Fleece in the Garden of Ares. See the Greek legends of Aries and
Hercules."
"Mesopotamia: considered the female monster, Tiamat, symbol of chaos,
defeated by Marduk when he cut her in two following an epic battle that
describes the creation of earth as seen by the people of Sumer. One
half became the constellation of the dragon and the other became the
Hydra. See the Mesopotamian legends of Andromeda, Cetus, Hercules,
Hydra and Perseus."
Again, the connection to Sumer and Sumerian representations of the
heavens.
it is striking that little variation of interpretation occured among
ancient peoples including Celts and Chinese.
we also notice that in the Semitic `Livyatan` the heads are numerous
resembling the HYDRA rather than that creature come to be known as
'dragon'.
of note in Aramaic the corresponding word for "dragon" is different.
---
One more instance of the `Livyatan` occurs in the hebrew TNK aside from
the famous passage in Iyov / Job chapt.41,
in Yeshayahu / Isaiah 27:1
BHSSTR
<06485> dqpy <01931> awhh <03117> Mwyb
<01419> hlwdghw <07186> hsqh <02719> wbrxb <03068> hwhy
<01281> xrb <05175> sxn <03882> Ntywl <05921> le <02389> hqzxhw
<06129> Nwtlqe <05175> sxn <03882> Ntywl <05921> lew
<03220> Myb <0834> rsa <08577> Nynth <0853> ta <02026> grhw
[ton {<3588> T-ASM} drakonta {<1404> N-ASM} is the septuagint version
of the organism]
`aL Liv-yatan nachash barcha`
on/to Liv-yatan -snake- fugitive
(KJV "peircing")
`vaL Liv-yatan nachash iqlaton`
on/to Liv-yatan snake tortuous (meaning uncertain)
`vharog et hataniyn asher byam`
and destroy -direct object- the aquatic snake in the sea
There is rich vocabulary here reaching out to other sections of the
TNK, thus harmonizing what `Livyatan` means to the hebrews;
`hataniyn` `nachash` and `Livyatan`
Shemot /"Exodus" chapt 7:9 - the rod becomes a `taniyn`
Iyov 30:29 a brother to the `taniyn` (representing all taniyn, not
merely ONE, as in, "I was am kin to the stranger")
Iyov 7:12 Lit. the sea I/me a `taniyn` (Septuagint drakwv)
Tehila 74 (which we saw above) verse 13 the `taniyniym` [PLURAL] thou
brakest the heads of the dragons in the sea
Tehila 148:7 (The well-known "Praise ye the Lord Dwight Armstrong hymn)
Praise you Y_H_V_H ye `taniyn-iyM` [PLURAL] all the deep
`taniyniym` [PLURAL] are ichthyc/aquatic organisms in the seas, in "the
deep"
as Is 27:1 says `vharog et hataniyn asher byam`
`nachash` a herpetoid in any case,
derived from "hiss" the sound made by snakes.
Quite appropriate as `Liv-yatan` means `coiled one` or `one of folded
twists` i.e. resembling a snake.
So we have `nachash` snake, and `taniyn` aquatic snake (as we saw in
the septuagint `khtov` ketos),
and `Liv-yatan` in "First Isaiah" as monstrous organisms of the
seas/deep which are smashed by the elohim `mighty one` to display his
'might' , thus scaring off the `goiim` and bringing Yisrael peace and
security "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel
shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit."
(Theme of Yeshayahu- Yisrael the Servant, no Messiah in there)
Finally we return to Iyov /Job 41
BHSSTR
40:25/(41:1)
<02443> hkxb <03882> Ntywl <04900> Ksmt
<03956> wnsl <08257> eyqst <02256> lbxbw
LXXM(40:25)
axeiv {<71> V-FAI-2S} de {<1161> PRT} drakonta {<1404> N-ASM} en
{<1722> PREP} agkistrw {<44> N-DSN} periyhseiv {<4060> V-FAI-2S} de
{<1161> PRT} forbean {N-ASF} peri {<4012> PREP} rina {N-ASF} autou
{<846> D-GSM}
`timshak Livyatan bchakah uvchebeL tashqiya Lshano`
----------------------------------
pull out - LWYTN - in a hook - and in a rope - subdue/sink - (or) his
tongue ?
etc.
41:33upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
41:34He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the
children of pride.
Thus we arrive at the basis for your doctrine that NT `SATANOS` or
`DIABOULOS` a.k.a. your NT "Satan" (whom you mistakenly insist is
equivalent to hebrew `heylel` Greek Phosphoros and Latin Lucifer), is
here made equivalent to another unrelated character, the aquatic
monster of gigantic proportion, `Liv-yatan` or "Leviathan".
(Naturally anyone who knows the NT immediately recognizes that the New
Testament DEVIL is the Persian AHRIMAN)
Back to your theory in your "Amazing Grace Hidden Word" book, viz.
"king of the children of pride" equivalent to DEVIL.
did you ever look at the source ? No.
You claim the posuk refers to an "Ahrimanic brood" or "followers of
Ahriman".
Do you comprehend the passage in context ?
This ancient/legendary aquatic herpetoid organism is more terrifying
and majestic than all other creatures.
i.e. all other creatures, no matter how HAUGHTY or arrogant, shall flee
before his greatness and majesty.
i.e. HOW does the context switch AT THE LAST MOMENT --simply to stand
in isolation from the previous chapter and introduce an entirely NEW
COSMOLOGY and THEOLOGY to the TANAK ???
`et koL gabah yiroeh hu
direct-object - all - LOFTY/ARROGANT- he sees
meLek aL koL bney shachatz
king - to - all - sons - MAJESTY"
Do you now see why others tell you to fling your books into the sea ?
THE PASSAGE SAYS PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU CLAIM
.
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