| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John the Baptist Jr." |
| Date: |
09 Jan 2006 09:33:07 PM |
| Object: |
Re the Parousia |
Are you trying to teach this business that Christ returned in AD 70? If
so I have some questions.
1. Explain 1 Thes 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
Lord Jesus Christ,
If christians are to go through the tribulation then why this verse?
2. Explain Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee
from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,
John
<'VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS,
TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.'>
One would reasonably suppose that after a note of time
so clear and express there could not be room for
controversy. Our Lord Himself has settled the question.
Ninety nine persons in every hundred would undoubtedly
understand His words as meaning that the predicted
catastrophe would fall within the limits of the
lifetime of the existing generation. Not that all would
probably live to witness it, but that most or many
would. There can be no question that this would be
the interpretation which the disciples would place upon
the words. Unless, therefore, our Lord intended to
mystify His disciples, He gave them plainly to
understand that His coining, the judgment of the Jewish
nation, and the close of the age, would come to pass
before the existing generation had wholly passed away,
and within the limits of their own lifetime. This, as
we have already seen, was no new idea, but one which
on several occasions He had previously expressed.
Far, however, from accepting this decision of our Lord
as final, the commentators have violently resisted that
which seems the natural and coin mon -sense meaning
of His words. They have insisted that because the
events predicted did Hot so come, to pass in that
generation, therefore the word generation (genea.)
cannot possibly mean, what it is usually understood
to mean, the people of that particular age or period,
the contemporaries of our Lord. To affirm that these
things did not conic to pass is to beg the question,
and something more.
But we submit that it is the business of grammarians
not to be apprehensive of possible consequences, but
to settle the true meaning of words. Our Lord's
predictions may be safely left to take care of
themselves; it is for us to try to understand them.
It is contended by many that in this place the word
genea. should be rendered 'race, or nation'; and that
our Lord's words mean no more than that the Jewish
race or nation Should Hot pass away, or perish, until
the predictions which He had just uttered had come
to pass. This is the meaning which Lange, Stier,
Alford, and many other expositors attach to the word,
and it is maintained with conspicuous ability and
copious learning by Dorner in his tractate, 'Do
Oratione Christi Eschatologica'. It is true, no doubt,
that the word genea, like most others, has different
shades of meaning, and that sometimes, in the
Septuagint and in classic authors it may refer to a
nation or a race. But we think that it is demonstrable
without any shadow of doubt that the expression 'this
generation' so often employed by our Lord, always
refers solely and exclusively to His contemporaries,
the Jewish people of His own period. It might safely
be left to the candid judgment of every reader, whether
a Greek Scholar or not, whether this is Hot so: but as
the point is one of great importance, it may be
desirable to adduce the proofs of this assertion.
1. In our Lord's final address to the people, delivered
on the same day as this discourse on the Mount of
Olives, He declared, 'All these things shall come upon
this generation' (Matt 23:36). No commentator
has ever proposed to understand this as referring
to any other than the existing generation.
2. 'Whereunto shall I liken this generation?'
(Matt 11:16). Here it is admitted by Lange and Stier
that the word refers to 'the then existing last
generation of Israel' (Lange, in loc. Stier, vol 2 98).
3. 'An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after
a sign.' 'The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the
judgment with this generation.' 'The Queen of the South
shall rise up in the judgment with this generation.'
'Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation'
(Matt 12:39, 41, 42, 45).
In these four passages Dorner endeavours to make out
that our Lord is not speaking of His contemporaries,
the men of His own period, 'For', he says, 'the
Gentiles' (the Ninevites and the Queen of the South)
'are opposed to the Jews; therefore "this generation "'
[h, genea. a[uth] 'must signify the nation or race of
the Jews' (Dorner, Orat. Chr. Esch., p. 81). His
argument, however, is not convincing. Surely the
generation which sought after a sign was the then
existing generation; and can it be supposed that it
was against any other generation than that which
had resisted such preaching as that of John the Baptist
and of Christ that the Gentiles were to rise up in the
judgment? There is only one interpretation of our
Lord's language possible, and it is that which refers
His words to His own perverse and unbelieving
contemporaries.
4. 'That the blood of all the prophets . . . may be
required of this generation.' 'It shall be required
of this generation' (Luke 11:50, 51).
Here Dorner himself admits that it is of the existing
generation (hoc ipsum hominum avum) that these
words are spoken (p. 41).
5. 'Whosoever shall be ashamed of me in this adulterous
and sinful generation' (Mark 8:38).
6. 'The Son of man must be rejected of this generation
(Luke 17:25). It is only necessary to quote these
passages in order to determine their sole reference to
the particular generation that rejected the Messiah.
These are all the examples in which the expression
'this generation' occurs in the sayings of our Lord,
and they establish beyond all reasonable question
the reference of the words in the important declaration
now before us. But suppose that we were to adopt the
rendering proposed, and take genea as meaning a race,
what point or significance would there be in the
prediction then? Can any one believe that the
assertion so solemnly made by our Lord, 'Verily I say
unto you', etc., amounts to no more than this, 'The
Hebrew race shall not become extinct till all these
things be fulfilled'? Imagine a prophet in our own
times predicting a great catastrophe in which London
would be destroyed, St. Paul's and the Houses of
Parliament levelled with the ground, and a fearful
slaughter of the inhabitants be perpetrated; and that
when asked, 'When shall these things come to pass?'
he should reply, 'The Anglo-Saxon race shall not become
extinct till all these things be fulfilled'! Would
this be a satisfactory answer? Would not such an
answer be considered derogatory to the prophet, and
an affront to his hearers? Would they not have reason
to say, 'It is safe prophesying when the event is
placed at an interminable distance'! But the bare
supposition of such a sense in our Lord's prediction
shows itself to be a reductio ad absurdum. Was it for
this that the disciples were to wait and watch? Was
this the lesson son that the budding fig- tree taught?
Was it not until the Jewish race was about to become
extinct that they were to 'look up, and lift up their
beads'? Such a hypothesis is its own refutation.
We fall back, therefore, upon the only tenable and
possible interpretation, and understand our Lord to
mean, what in so many words He says, that the events
specified in His prediction would assuredly come to
pass before the existing generation had wholly passed
away. This is the only interpretation which the words
will bear; every other involves a wresting of language,
and a violence to the understanding. Besides, it is in
harmony with the uniform teaching of our Saviour.
He had long before assured His disciples that some
of them should live to witness His return in glory
(Matt 16:27-28).
He had told them that before they had completed their
apostolic mission to the cities of Israel the Son of
man should come (Matt 10:23). He had declared that
all the blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of
Abel to the blood of Zacharias, should be required of
that generation (Matt Matt 23:35-36). It was,
therefore, of that generation that He spoke. It should
never be forgotten that there was a specialty about
that generation. It was the last and worst of all the
generations of Israel, inheriting the guilt of all its
predecessors, and was about to be visited with signal
and unparalleled judgments. Whether the predicted
catastrophe came to pass is another question, which
will come to be considered in its proper place.
Other interpretations which have been suggested,
as 'the human race,' 'the generation of the righteous,'
and 'the generation of the wicked,' do not require
consideration.
A word or two may be needful respecting the length
of time covered by a generation. Of course, it is not
an exact measure of time, like a decade or a century,
but has a certain indefiniteness or elasticity, yet
within certain limits, say between thirty and forty
years. In the book of Numbers we find that the
generation which provoked the Lord to exclude them
from the land of Canaan, and were doomed to fall in
the ...>
--
John 1:6-9 There came a man who was sent from God;
his name was John. He came as a witness to testify
concerning that light, so that through him all men
might believe. He himself was not the light; he came
only as a witness to the light.
CERM-Church Education Resource Ministries
http://johnw.freeshell.org/bible/
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: Re the Parousia |
10 Jan 2006 03:46:25 AM |
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John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
Re the Parousia
Note that the Antichrist is destroyed at the
parousia:
Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the
Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming (parousia). 2 Thessalonians 2:8
This proves that the parousia is post-trib.
John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
(1 Thes 5:9) If christians are to go through the
tribulation then why this verse?
1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers to the eternal wrath
opposed to salvation:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36
And even regarding the tribulation, only the vials
at the end of the tribulation are called God's
wrath by people in heaven:
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 16:1
And these vials aren't directed at all the
Christians we see in the tribulation, many of whom
will become martyrs killed by men:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under
the altar the souls of them that were slain for the
word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and
avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet
for a little season, until their fellowservants also
and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that
shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:9-13
And it was given unto him to make war with the
saints, and to overcome them: and power was given
him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And
all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If
any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth
into captivity shall go into captivity: he that
killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the
saints. Revelation 13:7-10
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the
Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that
they may rest from their labours; and their works
do follow them. Revelation 14:12-13
These are all believers, and all believers are in
the one body of Christ, the church:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are
called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:4-6
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is
the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in
all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18
So the church will go through the tribulation, and
God's wrath at the end of the tribulation won't be
directed against the church.
John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
Explain Rev 3:10
Note that "keep thee from" doesn't require removal
from the earth:
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the
world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the
evil. John 17:15
In Revelation 3:10, "the hour of temptation (trial)"
is the same first-century trial of persecution that
others in the church suffered through unto death:
-Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold, the devil shall cast some of you into
prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have
tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death,
and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:10
In Revelation 3:10, "all the world", refers to all
the Roman Empire, as in:
And it came to pass in those days, that there went
out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world
should be taxed. Luke 2:1
In Revelation 3:10, "them that dwell upon the earth"
refers to those believers on the earth as opposed
to those in heaven:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be present with the
Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
We need to have this same lack of fear of death if
we are to remain faithful through the coming
tribulation:
And deliver them who through fear of death were all
their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:15
But he that received the seed into stony places, the
same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy
receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but
dureth for a while: for when tribulation or
persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by
he is offended. Matthew 13:20-21
And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and
hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they
shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and
curse their king and their God, and look upward. And
they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble
and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be
driven to darkness. Isaiah 8:21-22
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy. 1 Peter 4:12-13
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Re the Parousia |
10 Jan 2006 02:33:59 PM |
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Pure bible nonsense!
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136886385.719879.228310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
Re the Parousia
Note that the Antichrist is destroyed at the
parousia:
Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the
Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming (parousia). 2 Thessalonians 2:8
This proves that the parousia is post-trib.
John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
(1 Thes 5:9) If christians are to go through the
tribulation then why this verse?
1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers to the eternal wrath
opposed to salvation:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36
And even regarding the tribulation, only the vials
at the end of the tribulation are called God's
wrath by people in heaven:
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying
to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the
vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 16:1
And these vials aren't directed at all the
Christians we see in the tribulation, many of whom
will become martyrs killed by men:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under
the altar the souls of them that were slain for the
word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and
avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet
for a little season, until their fellowservants also
and their brethren, that should be killed as they
were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and
shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended,
and shall betray one another, and shall hate one
another. And many false prophets shall rise, and
shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that
shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:9-13
And it was given unto him to make war with the
saints, and to overcome them: and power was given
him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And
all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If
any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth
into captivity shall go into captivity: he that
killeth with the sword must be killed with the
sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the
saints. Revelation 13:7-10
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of
Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto
me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the
Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that
they may rest from their labours; and their works
do follow them. Revelation 14:12-13
These are all believers, and all believers are in
the one body of Christ, the church:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are
called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:4-6
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is
the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in
all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18
So the church will go through the tribulation, and
God's wrath at the end of the tribulation won't be
directed against the church.
John the Baptist Jr. posted on Jan 9, 7:33 pm:
Explain Rev 3:10
Note that "keep thee from" doesn't require removal
from the earth:
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the
world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the
evil. John 17:15
In Revelation 3:10, "the hour of temptation (trial)"
is the same first-century trial of persecution that
others in the church suffered through unto death:
-Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer:
behold, the devil shall cast some of you into
prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have
tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death,
and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:10
In Revelation 3:10, "all the world", refers to all
the Roman Empire, as in:
And it came to pass in those days, that there went
out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world
should be taxed. Luke 2:1
In Revelation 3:10, "them that dwell upon the earth"
refers to those believers on the earth as opposed
to those in heaven:
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be present with the
Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
We need to have this same lack of fear of death if
we are to remain faithful through the coming
tribulation:
And deliver them who through fear of death were all
their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:15
But he that received the seed into stony places, the
same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy
receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but
dureth for a while: for when tribulation or
persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by
he is offended. Matthew 13:20-21
And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and
hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they
shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and
curse their king and their God, and look upward. And
they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble
and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be
driven to darkness. Isaiah 8:21-22
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery
trial which is to try you, as though some strange
thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye
are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his
glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with
exceeding joy. 1 Peter 4:12-13
.
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