| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
" Tom P" |
| Date: |
03 Jan 2007 12:54:02 PM |
| Object: |
Re: The promise of Atheism |
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167704290.181298.211040@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
The following is quoted from a letter by Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin
Rush
dated April 21, 1803. The full text can be found at
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl153.htm and at
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=152&division=div1.
Extracts can be found at Lester J. Cappon, editor, "The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and
Abigail
and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1987,
pages 343-344.
"In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of
1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis
through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was
sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I
would
give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry &
reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to
me
by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of
Christianity
I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I
am
a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely
attached
to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every
"human " (emphasis in original) excellence; & believing he never claimed
any
other."
Did you note that part where Jefferson wrote, "I am a Christian. . ."?
He says "I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be"
which means that he believes in the Christian doctrine of people loving
one another, as all sane people do, but elsewhere he flatly denied
believing in God.
Prove your point. Quote any document by Thomas Jefferson wherein he denies
believing in God. Bet you can't. For the most excellent reason that
Jefferson never wrote such nonsense. Your clause, "but elsewhere he flatly
denied believing in God" is a flagrant lie. Prove me wrong by quoting
Jefferson and citing your source.
Jefferson clearly explained what he meant on many occasions so your addled
paraphrase is not only false but totally unnecessary. Jefferson also
clearly indicated his belief in God as creator, that God is the source of
all morality, that there is a life after death in heaven, that Jesus was the
most perfect law-giver of all time. But one must first read Jefferson to
know such things.
Thomas Jefferson left many volumes of correspondence. And among these many
volumes are dozens of letters in which Jefferson clearly and explicitly
stated his belief in and worship of God -- and a few include Jefferson's
contempt for atheists and atheism.
Read these excerpts from Jefferson's quill quite carefully. You just might
learn something.
Thomas Jefferson to John Randolph, November 29, 1775: "But by the god that
made me I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms
as the British parliament propose and in this I think I speak the sentiments
of America." (In L. Brenner, ed., "Jefferson and Madison on Separation of
Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004, page 21.)
From Jefferson's preamble to "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom"
first drafted in 1777, debated and printed in 1779: "Well aware that the
opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow
involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath
created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall
remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts
to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil
incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and
are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being
lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on
either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its
influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and
rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible
and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others . . ."
(As everyone expects who has read Jefferson, this sentence continues to some
length. If you are interested, go read the entire text, which one may find
in M. Peterson, ed., "The Portable Thomas Jefferson," New York: Penguin,
1975, pages 251-253 or in various editions of Jefferson's collected works
and many web sties. Note that this is not the text of the statute
introduced by Madison in October, 1785, and after debate passed by the
Virginia Legislature on January 16, 1786 because during the debates, certain
of Jefferson's language was omitted.)
Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823: "He was indeed an Atheist, which I
can never be . . ." (L. Capon, ed., ""The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail
and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1987,
page 591.)
And I know I can produce many more quotations from documents written in
Jefferson's own hand wherein Jefferson affirms his belief in the
Judeo-Christian God, but I have a plane to catch in a couple hours. But
fear not, I shall return in a week or so to debate with you, Martin, and
various and sundry other correspondents. You, Sir, I think could use this
time to actually go read in the works of Jefferson. Perhaps that will
prevent you making a nincompoop of yourself by asserting such utter
nincompoopery as " . . . but elsewhere he [Jefferson] flatly denied
believing in God." Be sure and tell all of your devoted readers with exact
precision where your "elsewhere" is where you think Jefferson "flatly denied
believing in God." Martin, that is false. Your words are a lie. But,
please, do not take my word for it. Force me to eat my words. Prove I am a
fool who has not read Jefferson to the extent you have. Prove that
Jefferson "flatly denied believing in God." All you have to do is produce a
document written by Jefferson wherein Jefferson "flatly denied believing in
God." But please, do fully cite your source. There are more than one
thousand full text documents by Jefferson at
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/texts/. Why not begin your search
there?
By the way, Lenni Brenner, the editor of "Jefferson and Madison on
Separation of Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004,
which I quoted from above, is an atheist or a secularist, perhaps both, at
least according to the rather presumptuously titled "Scholar's Afterword"
[sic]" that appears on pages 397-406. Nonetheless, I have checked many of
his passages against other sources and found none printed inaccurately.
Albeit Mr. Brenner is most generous with his use of ellipses to indicate
missing parts of the texts.
Martin
.
|
|
| User: "theBeaver" |
|
| Title: Re: The promise of Atheism |
05 Jan 2007 07:04:16 AM |
|
|
Tom P wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167704290.181298.211040@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
The following is quoted from a letter by Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin
Rush
dated April 21, 1803. The full text can be found at
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl153.htm and at
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=152&division=div1.
Extracts can be found at Lester J. Cappon, editor, "The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and
Abigail
and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1987,
pages 343-344.
"In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of
1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis
through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was
sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I
would
give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry &
reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to
me
by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of
Christianity
I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I
am
a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely
attached
to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every
"human " (emphasis in original) excellence; & believing he never claimed
any
other."
Did you note that part where Jefferson wrote, "I am a Christian. . ."?
He says "I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be"
which means that he believes in the Christian doctrine of people loving
one another, as all sane people do, but elsewhere he flatly denied
believing in God.
Prove your point. Quote any document by Thomas Jefferson wherein he denies
believing in God. Bet you can't. For the most excellent reason that
Jefferson never wrote such nonsense. Your clause, "but elsewhere he flatly
denied believing in God" is a flagrant lie. Prove me wrong by quoting
Jefferson and citing your source.
Jefferson clearly explained what he meant on many occasions so your addled
paraphrase is not only false but totally unnecessary. Jefferson also
clearly indicated his belief in God as creator, that God is the source of
all morality, that there is a life after death in heaven, that Jesus was the
most perfect law-giver of all time. But one must first read Jefferson to
know such things.
Thomas Jefferson left many volumes of correspondence. And among these many
volumes are dozens of letters in which Jefferson clearly and explicitly
stated his belief in and worship of God -- and a few include Jefferson's
contempt for atheists and atheism.
Read these excerpts from Jefferson's quill quite carefully. You just might
learn something.
Thomas Jefferson to John Randolph, November 29, 1775: "But by the god that
made me I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms
as the British parliament propose and in this I think I speak the sentiments
of America." (In L. Brenner, ed., "Jefferson and Madison on Separation of
Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004, page 21.)
From Jefferson's preamble to "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom"
first drafted in 1777, debated and printed in 1779: "Well aware that the
opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow
involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath
created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall
remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts
to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil
incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and
are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being
lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on
either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its
influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and
rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible
and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others . . ."
(As everyone expects who has read Jefferson, this sentence continues to some
length. If you are interested, go read the entire text, which one may find
in M. Peterson, ed., "The Portable Thomas Jefferson," New York: Penguin,
1975, pages 251-253 or in various editions of Jefferson's collected works
and many web sties. Note that this is not the text of the statute
introduced by Madison in October, 1785, and after debate passed by the
Virginia Legislature on January 16, 1786 because during the debates, certain
of Jefferson's language was omitted.)
Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823: "He was indeed an Atheist, which I
can never be . . ." (L. Capon, ed., ""The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail
and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1987,
page 591.)
And I know I can produce many more quotations from documents written in
Jefferson's own hand wherein Jefferson affirms his belief in the
Judeo-Christian God, but I have a plane to catch in a couple hours. But
fear not, I shall return in a week or so to debate with you, Martin, and
various and sundry other correspondents. You, Sir, I think could use this
time to actually go read in the works of Jefferson. Perhaps that will
prevent you making a nincompoop of yourself by asserting such utter
nincompoopery as " . . . but elsewhere he [Jefferson] flatly denied
believing in God." Be sure and tell all of your devoted readers with exact
precision where your "elsewhere" is where you think Jefferson "flatly denied
believing in God." Martin, that is false. Your words are a lie. But,
please, do not take my word for it. Force me to eat my words. Prove I am a
fool who has not read Jefferson to the extent you have. Prove that
Jefferson "flatly denied believing in God." All you have to do is produce a
document written by Jefferson wherein Jefferson "flatly denied believing in
God." But please, do fully cite your source. There are more than one
thousand full text documents by Jefferson at
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/texts/. Why not begin your search
there?
By the way, Lenni Brenner, the editor of "Jefferson and Madison on
Separation of Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004,
which I quoted from above, is an atheist or a secularist, perhaps both, at
least according to the rather presumptuously titled "Scholar's Afterword"
[sic]" that appears on pages 397-406. Nonetheless, I have checked many of
his passages against other sources and found none printed inaccurately.
Albeit Mr. Brenner is most generous with his use of ellipses to indicate
missing parts of the texts.
Martin
While Jefferson may not have been, strictly speaking, an atheist, he
certainly was no Christian:
"Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies." --
Thomas Jefferson
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel,
vindictive, capricious, and unjust." -- Thomas Jefferson
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --
Thomas Jefferson
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as
the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a
three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to
know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to
look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always
of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish
contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he
disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of
atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being
worshipped by many who think themselves Christians." -Thomas Jefferson,
letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ
on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society
be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than
Demonism?")
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and
doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such
tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other
books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to
entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New
Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded
from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of
very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick
out diamonds from dunghills." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams,
January 24, 1814
"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is
pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their
virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may
we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United
States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us
the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of
human errors." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be
one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of
blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
.
|
|
|
| User: " TomP" |
|
| Title: Re: The promise of Atheism |
24 Jan 2007 02:10:40 PM |
|
|
"theBeaver" <theBeaver@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k1snh.5593$IT2.5063@trnddc06...
Tom P wrote:
"Martin Phipps" <martinphipps2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167704290.181298.211040@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom P wrote:
The following is quoted from a letter by Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin
Rush
dated April 21, 1803. The full text can be found at
http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl153.htm and at
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=152&division=div1.
Extracts can be found at Lester J. Cappon, editor, "The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and
Abigail
and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press,
1987,
pages 343-344.
"In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of
1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the
crisis
through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was
sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I
would
give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry &
reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed
to me
by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of
Christianity
I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself.
I am
a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely
attached
to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself
every
"human " (emphasis in original) excellence; & believing he never
claimed any
other."
Did you note that part where Jefferson wrote, "I am a Christian. . ."?
He says "I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be"
which means that he believes in the Christian doctrine of people loving
one another, as all sane people do, but elsewhere he flatly denied
believing in God.
Prove your point. Quote any document by Thomas Jefferson wherein he
denies believing in God. Bet you can't. For the most excellent reason
that Jefferson never wrote such nonsense. Your clause, "but elsewhere he
flatly denied believing in God" is a flagrant lie. Prove me wrong by
quoting Jefferson and citing your source.
Jefferson clearly explained what he meant on many occasions so your
addled paraphrase is not only false but totally unnecessary. Jefferson
also clearly indicated his belief in God as creator, that God is the
source of all morality, that there is a life after death in heaven, that
Jesus was the most perfect law-giver of all time. But one must first
read Jefferson to know such things.
Thomas Jefferson left many volumes of correspondence. And among these
many volumes are dozens of letters in which Jefferson clearly and
explicitly stated his belief in and worship of God -- and a few include
Jefferson's contempt for atheists and atheism.
Read these excerpts from Jefferson's quill quite carefully. You just
might learn something.
Thomas Jefferson to John Randolph, November 29, 1775: "But by the god
that made me I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such
terms as the British parliament propose and in this I think I speak the
sentiments of America." (In L. Brenner, ed., "Jefferson and Madison on
Separation of Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004,
page 21.)
From Jefferson's preamble to "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom"
first drafted in 1777, debated and printed in 1779: "Well aware that the
opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow
involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God
hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it
shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all
attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by
civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and
meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our
religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to
propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,
but to extend it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious
presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical,
who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed
dominion over the faith of others . . ." (As everyone expects who has
read Jefferson, this sentence continues to some length. If you are
interested, go read the entire text, which one may find in M. Peterson,
ed., "The Portable Thomas Jefferson," New York: Penguin, 1975, pages
251-253 or in various editions of Jefferson's collected works and many
web sties. Note that this is not the text of the statute introduced by
Madison in October, 1785, and after debate passed by the Virginia
Legislature on January 16, 1786 because during the debates, certain of
Jefferson's language was omitted.)
Jefferson to John Adams, April 11, 1823: "He was indeed an Atheist,
which I can never be . . ." (L. Capon, ed., ""The Adams-Jefferson
Letters: The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and
Abigail and John Adams," Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina
Press, 1987, page 591.)
And I know I can produce many more quotations from documents written in
Jefferson's own hand wherein Jefferson affirms his belief in the
Judeo-Christian God, but I have a plane to catch in a couple hours. But
fear not, I shall return in a week or so to debate with you, Martin, and
various and sundry other correspondents. You, Sir, I think could use
this time to actually go read in the works of Jefferson. Perhaps that
will prevent you making a nincompoop of yourself by asserting such utter
nincompoopery as " . . . but elsewhere he [Jefferson] flatly denied
believing in God." Be sure and tell all of your devoted readers with
exact precision where your "elsewhere" is where you think Jefferson
"flatly denied believing in God." Martin, that is false. Your words are
a lie. But, please, do not take my word for it. Force me to eat my
words. Prove I am a fool who has not read Jefferson to the extent you
have. Prove that Jefferson "flatly denied believing in God." All you
have to do is produce a document written by Jefferson wherein Jefferson
"flatly denied believing in God." But please, do fully cite your source.
There are more than one thousand full text documents by Jefferson at
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/texts/. Why not begin your search
there?
By the way, Lenni Brenner, the editor of "Jefferson and Madison on
Separation of Church and State," Fort Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004,
which I quoted from above, is an atheist or a secularist, perhaps both,
at least according to the rather presumptuously titled "Scholar's
Afterword" [sic]" that appears on pages 397-406. Nonetheless, I have
checked many of his passages against other sources and found none printed
inaccurately. Albeit Mr. Brenner is most generous with his use of
ellipses to indicate missing parts of the texts.
Martin
While Jefferson may not have been, strictly speaking, an atheist, he
certainly was no Christian:
You are waffling. Jefferson flatly denied being an atheist and claimed he
"could never be one." Jefferson mocked and derided atheists and atheism,
and I have posted the sources of those comments by Jefferson many times.
I never claimed Jefferson was a Christian. I did post an
authentic and well-sourced written declaration by Jefferson wherein he
considered himself to be a Christian. Argue with Jefferson.
"Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies." --
Thomas Jefferson
Prove Jefferson ever said or wrote that. Cite the source.
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character -- cruel, vindictive,
capricious, and unjust." -- Thomas Jefferson
Cite your source.
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --
Thomas Jefferson
Cite your source. You see, I have caught more than one of your atheist
fellow-travelers making up alleged "quotations" which turned out to be false
or so ludicrously out of context that the obviously intended meaning is
totally distorted.
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the
many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three
headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know
more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look
at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two
classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions
of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,
is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson
Again, cite your source. How else can anyone know that you or one of your
atheist fellow travelers didn't make that up?
"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of
atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being
worshipped by many who think themselves Christians." -Thomas Jefferson,
letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on
Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be
better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")
How does that prove Jefferson was an atheist or that Jefferson was not a
Christian?
Did you note that Price wrote that both atheism and demonism are pernicious?
And the only issue to be discussed is whether "Atheism less [is] pernicious
than Demonism."
Ever read the entire letter? How about Jefferson's later correspondence with
and comments about Richard Price?
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and
doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such
tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books
relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much
doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is
internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary
man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is
as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from
dunghills." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Hey, all right! See? You can do it. Provide a source for your alleged
words by Jefferson that is. Now, where did you read the letter?
Is your quotation accurate? Actually, "theBeaver," it is not. You lied
again. The Gospels are not mentioned in this letter. Nor are the Gospels
referred to in this letter.
As you might expect, I just happen to have the text of this letter by
Jefferson in front of me. It is just as obvious you have not read the
entire letter, but grabbed that quote from some dubious atheist source.
Again, as usual. You see, "theBeaver," the next paragraph following the
paragraph your quote is extracted from is a long diatribe by Jefferson
complaining that English judges, and to some extent Justice Marshall, had
enshrined Christianity in the Common Law, much to the chagrin of Jefferson.
Now that is something of a problem for your atheist position that
Christianity had nothing whatsoever to do with the American Revolution and
Constitution. Obviously, to all but the most obtuse and ignorant, the
English Common Law was a source for the ideologies that produced both the
American Revolution and the Constitution. Or do you credit only the lines
you misquoted in this letter and not the letter in its entirety?
Oh, yes, sorry, I forgot momentarily. To emphasize, you lied, "theBeaver,"
whether from ignorance or malice I do not know. But I do know you surely
lied when you posted that quotation, and I prefer to believe your dishonesty
is founded in your ignorance of the subject because you have so amply
demonstrated your ignorance on so many prior occasions. Nowhere in any line
of this letter your purportedly quote from are the Gospels mentioned.
Oopsie! Yet another atheist caught in a dishonest and fraudulent
presentation. Shame! Shame on you, "theBeaver"! Did you really think I
wouldn't check? Especially since I am so perfectly well aware of the
atheist penchant for misquoting, quoting out of context, and making "quotes"
up outright?
You see, "theBeaver," I found your "quote" at
http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm. Guess what? Your atheist web site lies
too. Had whoever the liar is that posted that misquote and you yourself
bothered to actually read the entire letter instead of just the lines you
mistakenly believe to buttress your atheist silliness, you would know that.
The entire paragraph in this letter (which you can read in its entirety on
pages 421-425 of "The Adams-Jefferson Letters," ed. L. Capon, Chapel Hill,
NC, U. of N. Carolina Press, 1987), which is the third paragraph in this
letter, reads as follows:
"You ask me if I have ever seen the work of J. W. Goethens Schristen?
Never. Nor did the question ever occur to me before Where get we the ten
commandments? The book indeed gives them to us verbatim. But where did it
get them? For itself tells us they were written by the finger of god on
tables of stone, which were destroyed by Moses: it specifies those on the
2d. set of tables in different form and substance, but still without saying
how the others were recovered. But the whole history of these books is so
defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it:
and such tricks have been plaid [sic] with their text, and with the texts
of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to
entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament
there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an
extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior
minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from
dunghills. The matter of the first was such as would be preserved in the
memory of the hearers, and handed on by tradition for a long time; the
latter such stuff as might be gathered up, for imbedding it, any where, and
at any time."
Well, "theBeaver," why do you and your atheist fellow traveler who put the
misquote on the atheist web page you consulted believe that the narrative of
Moses receiving the ten commandments appears in "the Gospels"? Are you
truly so stupid as to believe that?
You see, in the Bibles I consulted, this narrative is in the book of
Exodus in the Old Testament. So why did you insert "[the Gospels]" when no
such word appears anywhere in this letter at all?
And Jefferson certainly did not need your help because Jefferson doubtless
knew which book of the bible contained the narrative of Moses and the ten
commandments. So what are we to make of this lie you posted?
"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is
pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their
virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
You should have read the entire letter before you posted. The letter
begins: "DEAR SIR, -- The copy of your Second Thoughts on Instinctive
Impulses, with the letter accompanying it, was received just as I was
setting out on a journey to this place, two or three days' distant from
Monticello. I brought it with me and read it with great satisfaction, and
with the more as it contained exactly my own creed on the foundation of
morality in man. It is really curious that on a question so fundamental,
such
a variety of opinions should have prevailed among men, and those, too, of
the most exemplary virtue and first order of understanding. It shows how
necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much
a part of our constitution as that no errors of reasoning or of speculation
might lead us astray from its observance in practice."
Oops! Did you get the part there wherein Jefferson said God [the Creator]
made "moral principle so much a part of our constitution"? You can read the
entire letter at
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=228&division=div1,
or on pages 226-228 of "Jefferson & Madison on Separation of Church and
State," ed. L. Brenner, Ft. Lee, NJ: Barricade Books, 2004. But I have
taken the liberty of quoting at length from this letter to demonstrate how
you cherry pick quotes. In this letter which you imply that Jefferson did
not believe God was the source of human morality, Jefferson explicitly
states at least twice that God is indeed the source of morality.
Jefferson then continues: "Of all the theories on this question, the most
whimsical seems to have been that of Wollaston, who considers truth as the
foundation of morality. The thief who steals your guinea does wrong only
inasmuch as he acts a lie in using your guinea as if it were his own. Truth
is certainly a branch of morality, and a very important one to society. But
presented as its foundation, it is as if a tree taken up by the roots, had
its stem reversed in the air, and one of its branches planted in the ground.
Some have made the love of God the foundation of morality. This, too, is but
a branch of our moral duties, which are generally divided into duties to God
and duties to man. If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a
belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the
Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such being exists. We have
the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to-wit: their
own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. have observed,
indeed, generally, that while in protestant countries the defections from
the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in catholic countries
they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to
have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had
some other foundation than the love of God." (Note that is the paragraph
from which your hacked up quotation was extracted from.)
In the next paragraph about halfway through, Jefferson wrote: "The Creator
would indeed have been a bungling artist, had he intended man for a social
animal, without planting in him social dispositions. It is true they are not
planted in every man, because there is no rule without exceptions; but it is
false reasoning which converts exceptions into the general rule. Some men
are born without the organs of sight, or of hearing, or without hands. Yet
it would be wrong to say that man is born without these faculties, and
sight, hearing, and hands may with truth enter into the general definition
of man. The want or imperfection of the moral sense in some men, like the
want or imperfection of the senses of sight and hearing in others, is no
proof that it is a general characteristic of the species." (Oops, there
goes Jefferson attributing morals to God again.)
Come on, "theBeaver," can't you ever learn? In the passage you quoted,
Jefferson explicitly stated that morals are not founded in "the love of
God." But in the same letter, Jefferson said God was the source of morals.
Not "the love of God," but God. Those are two different entities.
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with
the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we
hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States
will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the
primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human
errors." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Glad you brought up this letter. Who do you think "this most venerated
reformer of human errors" Jefferson refers to? It is Jesus Christ. Have
you actually read the letter?
The second sentence of that letter reads: "The being described in his 5.
points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and
benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon of malignant spirit."
Gosh darn, "theBeaver," Jefferson begins the letter with a declaration of
his
belief in a Creator God who he (Jefferson) acknowledged and worshiped, and
which God governs the world. That sure sounds like the Judeo-Christian God
to me. But what did Jefferson have to say about who this God was? Well,
since the "you and I" was John Adams and Jefferson, it should be pretty
clear which God Adams acknowledged and adored. Do you think that was the
Judeo-Christian God, "theBeaver"?
Fortunately, Jefferson clears this up for us as this letter continues: "
It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme
him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Indeed I think that every
Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that,
without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a
god. Now one sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians: the other
five sixths then, who do not believe in the Jewish and Christian revelation,
are without a knolege of the existence of a god! This gives compleatly a
gain de cause to the disciples of Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa, Diderot and
D'Holbach. The argument which they rest on as triumphant and unanswerable is
that, in every hypothesis of Cosmogony you must admit an eternal
pre-existence of something; and according to the rule of sound philosophy,
you are never to employ two principles to solve a difficulty when one will
suffice. They say then that it is more simple to believe at once in the
eternal pre-existence of the world, as it is now going on, and may for ever
go on by the principle of reproduction which we see and witness, than to
believe in the eternal pre-existence of an ulterior cause, or Creator of the
world, a being whom we see not, and know not, of whose form substance and
mode or place of existence, or of action no sense informs us, no power of
the mind enables us to delineate or comprehend. On the contrary I hold
(without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in
it's parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to
perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite
power in every atom of it's composition. The movements of the heavenly
bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and
centripetal forces, the structure of our earth itself, with it's
distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere, animal and vegetable bodies,
examined in all their minutest particles, insects mere atoms of life, yet as
perfectly organised as man or mammoth, the mineral substances, their
generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to
believe that there is, in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an
ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their
preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and
their regenerator into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of
the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it's
course and order. Stars, well known, have disappeared, new ones have come
into view, comets, in their incalculable courses, may run foul of suns and
planets and require renovation under other laws; certain races of animals
are become extinct; and, were there no restoring power, all existences might
extinguish successively, one by one, until all should be reduced to a
shapeless chaos. So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and
powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro'
all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to
Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather
than in that of a self-existent Universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment
renders this more probable than that of the few in the other hypothesis.
Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existance of
both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and
effect. . . ." (I left out a quote in Latin from Aquinas here.)
Dang, "theBeaver," there goes Jefferson specifically rejecting the god of
17th and 18th century deism and asserts his (Jefferson's) belief in a
creator God. I love it when you atheists use letters you haven't read to try
to prove your points. You can read this entire letter at
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=JefLett.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=269&division=div1.
Why don't you do that?
Jefferson then goes on to discuss John 1:1-4, and the history of Christian
writers on the subject, which I elected not to quote here. But I will quote
the last sentence of this letter, which reads: "So much for your quotation
of Calvin's `mon dieu! jusqu'a quand' in which, when addressed to the God of
Jesus, and our God, I join you cordially, and await his time and will with
more readiness than reluctance. May we meet there again, in Congress, with
our antient Colleagues, and recieve with them the seal of approbation `Well
done, good and faithful servants.'"
Hot damn "theBeaver"! Jefferson wrote there that his God was the God of
Jesus! Jumpin' Jehosephat, "theBeaver," a letter you decided to quote from
just provided anyone who cares to read the letter even more proof in
Jefferson's own words that Thomas Jefferson acknowledged and adored the
Judeo-Christian God, that Jefferson's God created the world, that
Jefferson's God governed the affairs of men, that Jefferson believed in a
life after death where and when he would meet people he knew in this life,
if he was judged worthy by God. Aren't those points all covered in the
Nicene Creed? And the Apostle's Creed too, for that matter? Yup,
"theBeaver," actually, they are.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be
one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded
fear." -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Yeah, you atheists like to trundle out that quote. Again, you might read
the entire letter first. As you could guess, I just happen to have a copy
in front of me. The whole letter, that is, not some chopped up out of
context quote from some damned fool atheist web site like
positiveatheism.org
or the blather at infidels.org or nobeliefs.com. Oddly, you atheists and
your silly web sites don't seem to be cognizant of the next few sentences in
this letter to Peter Carr. So I will take this opportunity to educate you.
Jefferson wrote what are essentially a preamble and five numbered
paragraphs containing his advice to young Peter Carr. The third numbered
section begins: "3. Moral philosophy. I think it lost time to attend
lectures in this branch. He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler if
he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science."
Oops! There goes Jefferson declaring that God made human beings again. When
you actually sit yourself down and read Jefferson, you will find that a
lifelong
belief of his in a creator God.
How about if I just copy the entire 4th section concerning religion? It
will do you and my other readers good to read the entire paragraph that this
single sentence purloined and paraded with such frequency by you atheists on
your web sites and in your posts.
"4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In
the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty &
singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that
of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too
serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices,
under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her
seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with
boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more
approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will
naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible,
then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the
ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer,
as you do those of the same kind in Livy & Tacitus. The testimony of the
writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the
laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible
which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and
under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the
writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions
are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood
would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he
relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood
still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should
class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, &c. But
it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore,
candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension
is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand,
you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature
that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped,
should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees,
buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, &
that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth's
motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of
probabilities? You will next read the New Testament. It is the history of a
personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of
those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed
the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those
who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart,
enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in
believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted,
according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that
offence by whipping, & the second by exile, or death in fureā. See this law
in the Digest Lib. 48. tit. 19. §. 28. 3. & Lipsius Lib 2. de cruce. cap. 2.
These questions are examined in the books I have mentioned under the head of
religion, & several others. They will assist you in your inquiries, but keep
your reason firmly on the watch in reading them all.
Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.
If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to
virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the
love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe
there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, & that he
approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a
future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite
to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a
belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all
prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because
any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it.
Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are
answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision. I forgot
to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the
histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have
decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists.
Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the
others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not
by the reason of those ecclesiastics. Most of these are lost. There are
some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor
to get & send you.
So what do we have in this section, "theBeaver"? Well, we get the part
where Jefferson wrote: "You will naturally examine first, the religion of
your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus."
Whoopsie! What's that? "[T]he religion of your own country"? Which
country do you think that was, atheist?
And then there is: "Read the Bible as you would Livy and Tacitus." Note
how Jefferson presumes any educated young man should read the Bible? As
well as the histories of Titus Livius and the annals and histories of
Tacitus. Have you read any of those, "theBeaver"? If your answer is no,
your education is woefully incomplete -- as if that wasn't obvious from your
posts.
And then of course there is this Jeffersonian gem: "Your own reason is the
only oracle given you by heaven . . ." So even reason is a gift from the
supernatural, in other words, reason, according to Jefferson, was from God.
Doesn't exactly dovetail with the atheist drivel in this thread that
Jefferson was some sort of atheist, does it, "theBeaver"?
There is a wealth of information in this letter concerning Jefferson that
flatly contradicts the notions of various atheist posts here and on their
web sites. But then one would have to actually read the entire letter to
know that. As opposed to carefully cut and pasted crap from atheist and
infidel web pages.
Hey, "theBeaver," I decided to take an extra week of vacation. Did you miss
me?
.
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