| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"duke" |
| Date: |
25 May 2007 07:36:38 AM |
| Object: |
Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
On 24 May 2007 18:11:45 GMT, wrote:
Paul said of himself that he went out to represent the gospel to the
gentiles while Peter held the same role for the jews.
Yet God picked Peter to bring the gospel to the *gentiles*. Paul, who never met
Jesus, helped but Peter was picked by God.
Acts 15:7 (New International Version)
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know
that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from
my lips the message of the gospel and believe
Peter did not act
in matters of evangelism the major or universal role nor did he
superceed Paul in the missionary activities that spread to distant
areas.
Yet the primacy of Peter by Jesus is totally reflected throughout the 4 gospels.
IN addition, It was Peter who heard directly from the Father, and to whom Jesus
gave the keys to the kingdom of God, to bind on earth to be so in heaven.
Mat 16:13-20
Paul and Peter acted in concert in many things, as also did St.
John and Peter in the early church.
The very obvious highest authority of the church was the council to
which authority and power all bowed in the final concensus.
The various roles and relationships of one to another in the early
church as recorded in scripture doesn't provide for the later defined
role of pope, and in contrast Peter himself is the clear example of
scripture as not fullfilling that role as seen above.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
25 May 2007 09:55:44 AM |
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"Acts 15:7 (New International Version)
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you
know
that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might
hear fro
m
my lips the message of the gospel and believe"
Soon thereafter from the same account of the first church council we
find:
=19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the
Gentiles who turn to God,
=20] but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols
and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
=21] For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who
preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
=22]
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole
church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with
Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas,
leading men among the brethren,
=23] with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and
Paul took the leadership role and used the directions given by the Lord
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line. This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective. It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler as was
subsequently developed in the west:
002:007 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
circumcision was unto Peter;
002:008 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship
of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the
Gentiles:)
002:009 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me
and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go
unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
002:010 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same
which I also was forward to do.
002:011 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed.
002:012 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the
Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated
himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
002:013 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that
Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
002:014 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the
truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If
thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and
not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live
as do the Jews?
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
25 May 2007 03:39:02 PM |
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On 25 May 2007 14:55:44 GMT, wrote:
Paul took the leadership role and used the directions given by the Lord
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line.
All apostles were leaders, but Peter was the Leader of the Leaders. Acts 15:7.
Paul never knew Jesus.
This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective. It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler as was
subsequently developed in the west:
The primacy of Peter is very clear in the Gospels.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "Health549" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 01:03:53 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:a7ie535h7i7mh1f905kkalhecvnmfpqib5@4ax.com...
On 25 May 2007 14:55:44 GMT, wrote:
Paul took the leadership role and used the directions given by the Lord
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line.
All apostles were leaders, but Peter was the Leader of the Leaders. Acts
15:7.
Paul never knew Jesus.
This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective. It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler as was
subsequently developed in the west:
The primacy of Peter is very clear in the Gospels.
What does that have to do with the pope in Rome?
How about the pope I came across in Wisconsin? He derived from Peter too,
but when one the pope from which he descends went to France and returned to
Rome, he was driven away by armed force.
His primacy comes from Peter.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
25 May 2007 05:45:43 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:a7ie535h7i7mh1f905kkalhecvnmfpqib5@4ax.com...
On 25 May 2007 14:55:44 GMT, wrote:
Paul took the leadership role and used the directions given by the Lord
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line.
All apostles were leaders, but Peter was the Leader of the Leaders. Acts
15:7.
Paul never knew Jesus.
This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective. It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler as was
subsequently developed in the west:
The primacy of Peter is very clear in the Gospels.
***Primacy, no. First among equals with no more or less authority than the
other Apostles, yes.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 06:40:18 AM |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 18:45:43 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net> wrote:
The primacy of Peter is very clear in the Gospels.
***Primacy, no. First among equals with no more or less authority than the
other Apostles, yes.
Peter's role as the Apostle that Jesus always turned to is VERY clear throughout
all 4 Gospels. This cannot be ignored as indicative of Peter's prime role to
Jesus and his plans for his Church. Especially in light of Mat 16:13-20, and as
further certified in Acts 15:7.
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what it is.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 07:05:10 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ao6g53lan7sme6l4rlejh0skmqpk36b0cu@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 May 2007 18:45:43 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net>
wrote:
The primacy of Peter is very clear in the Gospels.
***Primacy, no. First among equals with no more or less authority than the
other Apostles, yes.
Peter's role as the Apostle that Jesus always turned to is VERY clear
throughout
all 4 Gospels. This cannot be ignored as indicative of Peter's prime role
to
Jesus and his plans for his Church. Especially in light of Mat 16:13-20,
and as
further certified in Acts 15:7.
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what it
is.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 07:34:31 AM |
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On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:05:10 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net> wrote:
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff. And
there is no supreme commander.
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what it
is.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "OrthoNews6" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 08:25:34 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:48ag53dhte1iqnga1jb2q3otmd1n0gqahi@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:05:10 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net>
wrote:
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And
there is no supreme commander.
***Not the Supreme Pontiff. You might want to check the EWTN web site:
http://www.ewtn.com/HolySee/pontiff/index.asp
***Clearly, Mother Angelica and her nunnery and her TV network, believe the
pope is the Supreme Pontiff.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 07:09:33 AM |
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On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:25:34 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound1@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:48ag53dhte1iqnga1jb2q3otmd1n0gqahi@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:05:10 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net>
wrote:
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And
there is no supreme commander.
***Not the Supreme Pontiff. You might want to check the EWTN web site:
http://www.ewtn.com/HolySee/pontiff/index.asp
***Clearly, Mother Angelica and her nunnery and her TV network, believe the
pope is the Supreme Pontiff.
Never heard the title before, and still haven't.
The fact that the Pope is the leader of the Christian world as assigned by
Christ is a given.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 02:21:52 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:56ti53575n87p5gg8g5ncurk8gjcfppgga@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:25:34 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound1@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:48ag53dhte1iqnga1jb2q3otmd1n0gqahi@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:05:10 -0400, "OrthoNews5"
<newshound@danospam.net>
wrote:
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that
Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And
there is no supreme commander.
***Not the Supreme Pontiff. You might want to check the EWTN web site:
http://www.ewtn.com/HolySee/pontiff/index.asp
***Clearly, Mother Angelica and her nunnery and her TV network, believe
the
pope is the Supreme Pontiff.
Never heard the title before, and still haven't.
***Can't say i think much of you as a Roman Catholic. The rest of the
world's RCs have heard of this title!! LOL!
***Google "Supreme Pontiff" and see what happens. You guys think you bishop
of Rome, who no longer cponsiders himself as Patriarch of the Roman
Patriarchate, is the chief cook and dishwasher of ALL the world's Christian
belief systems. What a crock!
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 02:47:50 PM |
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On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:21:52 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
Never heard the title before, and still haven't.
***Can't say i think much of you as a Roman Catholic.
Well, well, well - now lookie who's getting personal because he is losing the
discussion badly.
***Google "Supreme Pontiff" and see what happens.
I know him as the Pope, Benedict XVI, an the Pontiff. But Supreme Pontiff - no.
It's logical and assigned by Christ, but not universally used in every day life.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 07:02:57 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rqnj539lu1ofjps4tnnb6srup1l587p45t@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:21:52 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
Never heard the title before, and still haven't.
***Can't say i think much of you as a Roman Catholic.
Well, well, well - now lookie who's getting personal because he is losing
the
discussion badly.
***Google "Supreme Pontiff" and see what happens.
I know him as the Pope, Benedict XVI, an the Pontiff. But Supreme
Pontiff - no.
It's logical and assigned by Christ, but not universally used in every day
life.
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the pope's
many titles.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
31 May 2007 03:41:32 PM |
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On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "OrthoNews6" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
31 May 2007 06:48:36 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8ncu53h6naahjejdq91c8skjc1kkk8qdho@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme Pontif.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jun 2007 06:48:51 AM |
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On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:48:36 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound3@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8ncu53h6naahjejdq91c8skjc1kkk8qdho@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme Pontif.
Why should I disagree? I said I know him as the Pope, the Pontiff, and the
Vicar of Christ, Chair of Peter. There easily could be other "titles" that I'm
not familiar with. But they all fit considering Mat 16:13-20.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "OrthoNews6" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jun 2007 07:17:58 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mp1063pj4ivre9fts6m3t820ef86jb08eo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:48:36 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound3@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8ncu53h6naahjejdq91c8skjc1kkk8qdho@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5"
<newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the
pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme Pontif.
Why should I disagree? I said I know him as the Pope, the Pontiff, and
the
Vicar of Christ, Chair of Peter. There easily could be other "titles"
that I'm
not familiar with. But they all fit considering Mat 16:13-20.
***If you were an informed RC, you would know all of his titles. How come I
know them and you, a devoted RC, do not?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jun 2007 01:06:12 PM |
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On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 08:17:58 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound3@danospam.net> wrote:
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme Pontif.
Why should I disagree? I said I know him as the Pope, the Pontiff, and
the
Vicar of Christ, Chair of Peter. There easily could be other "titles"
that I'm
not familiar with. But they all fit considering Mat 16:13-20.
***If you were an informed RC, you would know all of his titles. How come I
know them and you, a devoted RC, do not?
Why should I know all the names that he could be addressed as?
He's the Pope and the Pontiff and the Vicar of Christ. That's 3 good ones.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Dan" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jun 2007 07:23:50 AM |
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On Jun 1, 8:17 am, "OrthoNews6" <newshou...@danospam.net> wrote:
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mp1063pj4ivre9fts6m3t820ef86jb08eo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:48:36 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshou...@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8ncu53h6naahjejdq91c8skjc1kkk8qdho@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5"
<newshou...@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the
pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme Pontif.
Why should I disagree? I said I know him as the Pope, the Pontiff, and
the
Vicar of Christ, Chair of Peter. There easily could be other "titles"
that I'm
not familiar with. But they all fit considering Mat 16:13-20.
***If you were an informed RC, you would know all of his titles. How come I
know them and you, a devoted RC, do not.
Al, "Pontifex Maximus" was actually one of the titles of the Roman
Emperors. Constantine kept it when he converted to Christianity.
Bishop Hilarion (Alfaev) writes: "With relation to the pope of Rome
the title "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" points to the
pope's universal jurisdiction which is not and will never be
recognized by the Orthodox Churches."
.
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| User: "OrthoNews7" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jun 2007 07:20:39 PM |
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"Dan" <gerontius@Hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180700630.535004.92010@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 1, 8:17 am, "OrthoNews6" <newshou...@danospam.net> wrote:
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mp1063pj4ivre9fts6m3t820ef86jb08eo@4ax.com...
On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:48:36 -0400, "OrthoNews6"
<newshou...@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8ncu53h6naahjejdq91c8skjc1kkk8qdho@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:02:57 -0400, "OrthoNews5"
<newshou...@danospam.net>
wrote:
***You are displaying your ignorance. Supreme Pontiff is one of the
pope's
many titles.
Could be - we call him the Pope.
***At least you don't disagree that one of his titles is Supreme
Pontif.
Why should I disagree? I said I know him as the Pope, the Pontiff, and
the
Vicar of Christ, Chair of Peter. There easily could be other "titles"
that I'm
not familiar with. But they all fit considering Mat 16:13-20.
***If you were an informed RC, you would know all of his titles. How come
I
know them and you, a devoted RC, do not.
Al, "Pontifex Maximus" was actually one of the titles of the Roman
Emperors. Constantine kept it when he converted to Christianity.
Bishop Hilarion (Alfaev) writes: "With relation to the pope of Rome
the title "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" points to the
pope's universal jurisdiction which is not and will never be
recognized by the Orthodox Churches."
***Now, if only the RCs would be honest with the pope's titles and
acknowledge the reality of who the guy is... But, alas, this will not
happen, especially with "Duke" who I have filtered because of his
disingenuousness.
***Bishop Hilarion is correct in what he writes. the Orthodox East cannot
acknowledge that which was never intended by Our Lord and Saviour.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Hey ortho - The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
02 Jun 2007 07:46:03 AM |
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On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:20:39 -0400, "OrthoNews7" <newshound4@danospam.net> wrote:
Al, "Pontifex Maximus" was actually one of the titles of the Roman
Emperors. Constantine kept it when he converted to Christianity.
Bishop Hilarion (Alfaev) writes: "With relation to the pope of Rome
the title "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" points to the
pope's universal jurisdiction which is not and will never be
recognized by the Orthodox Churches."
***Now, if only the RCs would be honest with the pope's titles and
acknowledge the reality of who the guy is... But, alas, this will not
happen, especially with "Duke" who I have filtered because of his
disingenuousness.
Oh, give me a break, ortho. You're just hiding because you can't counter what I
say. You're the one that wanted to discuss, but now it's clear you just wanted
to believe that you had the answers and I didn't. Sorry to pop your bubble, but
like I told you before, If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You did.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "OrthoNews6" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
26 May 2007 07:48:26 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:48ag53dhte1iqnga1jb2q3otmd1n0gqahi@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:05:10 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound@danospam.net>
wrote:
***Call it what you will, but Holy Scripture DOES NOT indicate that Peter
was the "supreme pontiff" of "supreme commander" beofe whom all other
Apostles prostrated themselves.
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And
there is no supreme commander.
***and apparently no "president" either. But I've heard the pope called the
"Supreme Pontiff" and the papacy does teach, does it not, that it is the
head of all Christendom, Orthodox included?
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what it
is.
***You have never presented any Scriptural quotation which indicates that
the Patriarch of The church at Rome was EVER above any other bishop. We all
agree that Peter was the first among equals using whatever title you want,
bishop, pope, patriarch...whatever. But there is no Scriptural backing for
papal claims that ALL other Patriarchates were subservient to Rome.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 07:06:15 AM |
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On Sat, 26 May 2007 20:48:26 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound1@danospam.net>
wrote:
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And there is no supreme commander.
***and apparently no "president" either. But I've heard the pope called the
"Supreme Pontiff" and the papacy does teach, does it not, that it is the
head of all Christendom, Orthodox included?
I can't say I've ever heard such a reference as Supreme Pontiff.
Jesus assigned Peter as the first Pope of his Church on earth. Those that
reject the Pope reject Christ's work in this area.
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what it
is.
***You have never presented any Scriptural quotation which indicates that
the Patriarch of The church at Rome was EVER above any other bishop.
You're as confused as your name numbering system - confusing titles past vs
present. The Apostles by definition were "bishops" that personally knew Christ.
Christ picked one, Simon now Cephas, to be the leader of the Apostles. The Holy
Spirit selected the new Popes via a vote of the bishops. Historically, this
system has been in effect for 2000 years now.
If you wish to deny Mat 16:13-20 and Acts 15:7, that's your business. This job
description has been in effect for 2000 years now. You guys checked out 1000
years ago. So be it.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 02:19:44 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:m9si531e3n8qdn7d80dddaebuvmh26d9un@4ax.com...
On Sat, 26 May 2007 20:48:26 -0400, "OrthoNews6" <newshound1@danospam.net>
wrote:
You're making stuff up now. He's the pontiff, not the supreme pontiff.
And there is no supreme commander.
***and apparently no "president" either. But I've heard the pope called
the
"Supreme Pontiff" and the papacy does teach, does it not, that it is the
head of all Christendom, Orthodox included?
I can't say I've ever heard such a reference as Supreme Pontiff.
Jesus assigned Peter as the first Pope of his Church on earth. Those that
reject the Pope reject Christ's work in this area.
One can pretend it's not true but you can't deny scripture. It is what
it
is.
***You have never presented any Scriptural quotation which indicates that
the Patriarch of The church at Rome was EVER above any other bishop.
You're as confused as your name numbering system - confusing titles past
vs
present. The Apostles by definition were "bishops" that personally knew
Christ.
Christ picked one, Simon now Cephas, to be the leader of the Apostles.
The Holy
Spirit selected the new Popes via a vote of the bishops. Historically,
this
system has been in effect for 2000 years now.
If you wish to deny Mat 16:13-20 and Acts 15:7, that's your business.
This job
description has been in effect for 2000 years now. You guys checked out
1000
years ago. So be it.
***YOU guys checked out. Or do you deny that Cardinal Humberto delivered the
pope's Bull of Excommunication?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 02:43:09 PM |
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On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:19:44 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
If you wish to deny Mat 16:13-20 and Acts 15:7, that's your business.
This job
description has been in effect for 2000 years now. You guys checked out
1000
years ago. So be it.
***YOU guys checked out. Or do you deny that Cardinal Humberto delivered the
pope's Bull of Excommunication?
Can't be. We still had the pope for 2000 years. You left after the 1st 1000.
Who is Cardinal Humberto? Now ask me if I reject his bull.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "OrthoNews5" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
27 May 2007 07:01:58 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:bjnj53d71t7sloc85ft181tlhad7karp46@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:19:44 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
If you wish to deny Mat 16:13-20 and Acts 15:7, that's your business.
This job
description has been in effect for 2000 years now. You guys checked out
1000
years ago. So be it.
***YOU guys checked out. Or do you deny that Cardinal Humberto delivered
the
pope's Bull of Excommunication?
Can't be. We still had the pope for 2000 years. You left after the 1st
1000.
Who is Cardinal Humberto? Now ask me if I reject his bull.
***I've alrweady explained this to you when you claimed to have never heard
of him.
.
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| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
31 May 2007 03:41:05 PM |
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On Sun, 27 May 2007 20:01:58 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:bjnj53d71t7sloc85ft181tlhad7karp46@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:19:44 -0400, "OrthoNews5" <newshound2@danospam.net>
wrote:
If you wish to deny Mat 16:13-20 and Acts 15:7, that's your business.
This job
description has been in effect for 2000 years now. You guys checked out
1000
years ago. So be it.
***YOU guys checked out. Or do you deny that Cardinal Humberto delivered
the
pope's Bull of Excommunication?
Can't be. We still had the pope for 2000 years. You left after the 1st
1000.
Who is Cardinal Humberto? Now ask me if I reject his bull.
***I've alrweady explained this to you when you claimed to have never heard
of him.
I guess you didn't. I googled him and all I got was some guy in 1970.
You really don't read what I say, do you.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "veritas" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
30 Jun 2007 05:55:12 PM |
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On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:41:05 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Duke ,
As a Catholic , what is your opinion of the "Constantine Myth" about
the papacy ?
Is it true or manufactured ?
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
01 Jul 2007 07:32:22 AM |
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On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:55:12 +1000, veritas <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:41:05 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
Duke ,
As a Catholic , what is your opinion of the "Constantine Myth" about
the papacy ?
Perhaps you could provide a short summary of the "myth". Not everybody,
including me, knows where you're coming from.
Is it true or manufactured ?
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
25 May 2007 02:00:24 PM |
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On May 25, 7:55 am, wrote:
"Acts 15:7 (New International Version)
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you
know
that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might
hear fro
m
my lips the message of the gospel and believe"
Soon thereafter from the same account of the first church council we
find:
=19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the
Gentiles who turn to God,
=20] but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols
and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
=21] For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who
preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
=22]
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole
church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with
Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas,
leading men among the brethren,
=23] with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and
Paul took the leadership role
That was granted to him by Peter and the other apostles.
and used the directions given by the Lord
Correction, given by the apostles. Paul was not traveling with Jesus
for three years.
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line.
This sentence has no support in the Biblical text. What actually
happened is that Paul pointed out how the actions of a leading, not
straying, authority in the Christian community would be misconstrued
to lead Gentile Christians to believe that they were bound by that
which this leading authority had already declared was not binding on
Gentile Christians.
This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective.
That it does, that of Peter being the leading authority, but still a
man who can be reubked for actions which can be misconstrued. Actions,
not teachings.
It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler
And here I will correct another error on Jethro's part, the authority
of a Pope is as a teaching authority, not a monarch. While the Pope is
in fact, a monarch of an independent state(the Vatican), this is
utterly irrelevant to his role as a teaching authority.
as was
subsequently developed in the west:
Pope as ruler of a state is a later development, but Jethro fails to
show any conflict between what the Scripture tells us about Peter as a
teaching authority, and what the Pope claims as teaching authority.
002:007 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
circumcision was unto Peter;
Since you copied the passage into this thread twice, I might as well
copy and paste my line by line rebuttal of your claims again.
002:008 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship
of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the
Gentiles:)
Basically Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, Jethro and I are
presumably in agreement on this.
002:009 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me
and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go
unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Paul derives his authority from the other apostles, including Peter.
002:010 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same
which I also was forward to do.
002:011 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed.
To be blamed, and for what?
002:012 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the
Gentiles:
Let the record show, Peter did, in fact, eat with Gentile Christians.
but when they were come, he withdrew and separated
himself,
Bingo! Notice Jethro's error here. Despite his claim of Peter "doing
one thing and saying another", Peter, in fact, does not say anything
here. He simply stopped eating with Gentile Christians.
This may come as a shock to Jethro, but nothing in the Gospels
teaches
against the concept of freedom of association. Yes, Christians may
freely associate with those they choose, the only caveat being
associating with companions that would lead one to sin. So Jethro's
claim of Peter not associating with Gentile Christians while in the
company of Jewish Christians is a practice of "doing one thing while
saying another" is simply an error on Jethro's part.
Now if Paul had complained that the Gentile Christians were abandoned
and denied such things as sacraments, Jethro might have had a point,
but Paul says no such thing, so Jethro has no basis for his claim.
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Now here this was a needless fear of Peter, but frankly, it doesn't
help Jethro's failed claim that Peter is not the foremost authority
or
that Peter has not the final authority in making a ruling on
Christian
teaching. Fear of something is not teaching. Peter did not teach
anything, he changed his behavior. He withdrew from the Gentile
Christians.
002:013 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that
Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
And here we see why Paul objects, not because Paul says Peter
actually
taught or told anything to Barnabas or these other Jews mentioned,
but
simply they began to do the same thing.
This would lead to the implication that Jewish dietary practices and
customs are required, and Paul had to object to this when he saw it.
002:014 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the
truth of the gospel,
Walked not uprightly, notice no claim of not teaching according to
the
truth of the Gospel, which is why I am correct and Jethro's claim is
wrong. The office of the Pope has no claim on being immune from sin
or
incorrect personal actions that can be misconstrued by others(which
is
the case of Peter here). Instead, Peter's role in Scripture is
consistent with the claim of the office of the Pope, that being the
claim of teaching authority.
said unto Peter before them all, If
thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and
not as do the Jews,
And there we go, Paul does even say here Peter lives after the manner
of the Gentiles, which he only stopped in the presence of these
Jewish
Christians.
why compellest thou the Gentiles to live
as do the Jews?
Proving my last point, here Paul objects to the Gentiles
misunderstanding from the implication of Peter's actions that they
must live as Jews to be Christians.
.
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| User: "RedFox" |
|
| Title: Re: The role of "pope" in light of scripture |
12 Jun 2007 09:48:56 PM |
|
|
In article <1180119624.226507.155200@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, David
<davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote:
On May 25, 7:55 am, wrote:
"Acts 15:7 (New International Version)
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you
know
that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might
hear fro
m
my lips the message of the gospel and believe"
Soon thereafter from the same account of the first church council we
find:
=19] Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the
Gentiles who turn to God,
=20] but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols
and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.
=21] For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who
preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues."
=22]
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole
church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with
Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas,
leading men among the brethren,
=23] with the following letter: "The brethren, both the apostles and
Paul took the leadership role
That was granted to him by Peter and the other apostles.
and used the directions given by the Lord
Correction, given by the apostles. Paul was not traveling with Jesus
for three years.
as to how to bring a straying brother back into the fold when Peter got
out of line.
This sentence has no support in the Biblical text. What actually
happened is that Paul pointed out how the actions of a leading, not
straying, authority in the Christian community would be misconstrued
to lead Gentile Christians to believe that they were bound by that
which this leading authority had already declared was not binding on
Gentile Christians.
This recounted in his letter to a distant church of the
Galatians puts the role of Peter and Paul and the others in the proper
perspective.
That it does, that of Peter being the leading authority, but still a
man who can be reubked for actions which can be misconstrued. Actions,
not teachings.
It doesn't reflect the role of a pope as ruler
And here I will correct another error on Jethro's part, the authority
of a Pope is as a teaching authority, not a monarch. While the Pope is
in fact, a monarch of an independent state(the Vatican), this is
utterly irrelevant to his role as a teaching authority.
as was
subsequently developed in the west:
Pope as ruler of a state is a later development, but Jethro fails to
show any conflict between what the Scripture tells us about Peter as a
teaching authority, and what the Pope claims as teaching authority.
002:007 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the
uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the
circumcision was unto Peter;
Since you copied the passage into this thread twice, I might as well
copy and paste my line by line rebuttal of your claims again.
002:008 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship
of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the
Gentiles:)
Basically Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, Jethro and I are
presumably in agreement on this.
002:009 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me
and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go
unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Paul derives his authority from the other apostles, including Peter.
002:010 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same
which I also was forward to do.
002:011 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the
face, because he was to be blamed.
To be blamed, and for what?
002:012 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the
Gentiles:
Let the record show, Peter did, in fact, eat with Gentile Christians.
but when they were come, he withdrew and separated
himself,
Bingo! Notice Jethro's error here. Despite his claim of Peter "doing
one thing and saying another", Peter, in fact, does not say anything
here. He simply stopped eating with Gentile Christians.
This may come as a shock to Jethro, but nothing in the Gospels
teaches
against the concept of freedom of association. Yes, Christians may
freely associate with those they choose, the only caveat being
associating with companions that would lead one to sin. So Jethro's
claim of Peter not associating with Gentile Christians while in the
company of Jewish Christians is a practice of "doing one thing while
saying another" is simply an error on Jethro's part.
Now if Paul had complained that the Gentile Christians were abandoned
and denied such things as sacraments, Jethro might have had a point,
but Paul says no such thing, so Jethro has no basis for his claim.
fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Now here this was a needless fear of Peter, but frankly, it doesn't
help Jethro's failed claim that Peter is not the foremost authority
or
that Peter has not the final authority in making a ruling on
Christian
teaching. Fear of something is not teaching. Peter did not teach
anything, he changed his behavior. He withdrew from the Gentile
Christians.
002:013 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that
Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
And here we see why Paul objects, not because Paul says Peter
actually
taught or told anything to Barnabas or these other Jews mentioned,
but
simply they began to do the same thing.
This would lead to the implication that Jewish dietary practices and
customs are required, and Paul had to object to this when he saw it.
002:014 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the
truth of the gospel,
Walked not uprightly, notice no claim of not teaching according to
the
truth of the Gospel, which is why I am correct and Jethro's claim is
wrong. The office of the Pope has no claim on being immune from sin
or
incorrect personal actions that can be misconstrued by others(which
is
the case of Peter here). Instead, Peter's role in Scripture is
consistent with the claim of the office of the Pope, that being the
claim of teaching authority.
said unto Peter before them all, If
thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and
not as do the Jews,
And there we go, Paul does even say here Peter lives after the manner
of the Gentiles, which he only stopped in the presence of these
Jewish
Christians.
why compellest thou the Gentiles to live
as do the Jews?
Proving my last point, here Paul objects to the Gentiles
misunderstanding from the implication of Peter's actions that they
must live as Jews to be Christians.
===
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