| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Read The Bible" |
| Date: |
03 Feb 2008 08:58:27 AM |
| Object: |
Re: The sun turned to darkness |
Doug said on Jan 28, 6:16 am: In prophecy, the sun
represents the gospel
In prophecy, the sun can represent itself (Revelation
7:16).
Doug said: Matthew identified the gospel with the
"great light" that Isaiah foresaw
Isaiah 9:2 doesn't say that the great light is the
sun; it could be Jesus Himself, who is brighter than
the noonday sun (Acts 26:13-15).
Matthew 4:12-17 doesn't say that Isaiah 9:2's great
light is the gospel; it could be Jesus Himself (John
8:12).
Doug said: Everyone sits "in the region and shadow
of death", as we all have to die
Those Christians who survive until the second coming
will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
Doug said: The gospel shows us the truth about
death, and what happens after death
The gospel shows us that Jesus Himself is the truth
(John 14:6); and Jesus shows us that the conscious
souls of the unsaved dead are tormented in Hades
(Luke 16:22-24), and that the conscious souls of the
saved dead go into heaven (Revelation 6:9-11).
Doug said: The sun is also called a great light
The literal sun is called a great light (Genesis
1:16), as is Jesus Himself (Acts 22:6-8).
Doug said: ... the sun clothes the woman in
Revelation 12:1, who represents the church
In Revelation 12:1, the church is clothed with
the Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2); the righteous
shine forth as the sun (Matthew 13:43).
The church is to be clothed with righteousness
(Revelation 19:8).
Jesus Himself is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6).
Doug said: So clearly, the sun represents the
gospel
This hasn't been shown.
While the gospel is a light (2 Corinthians 4:4); it
hasn't been shown that the gospel is the sun.
Doug said: ... the gospel of Jesus, represented by
the sun, was turned to darkness, as Joel's prophecy
foretold
It hasn't been shown that the gospel is anywhere
represented by the sun.
Joel 2:31 refers to what will appear to happen to
the literal sun during the coming tribulation
(Revelation 6:12).
Doug said: ... pagan ideas about the immortality of
the soul
The soul is not immortal (James 5:20).
Doug said: ... the false teachers that the Apostle
Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 2. The "damnable
doctrines" they taught included the ancient
superstition of unending infernal torments of the
souls of the wicked
2 Peter 2 doesn't say that the eternal torment of the
unsaved is a damnable doctrine, because it is a
Biblical doctrine (Revelation 14:10-11).
Doug quoted: Micah 7:18-19
Micah 7:18-19 refers to the salvation of only a
"remnant" (cf. Romans 9:27), for relatively few
people will be saved (Matthew 7:14).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. said on Jan 28, 10:14 pm:
[Re: Acts 2:20] Which means that the light of
Israel will be dimmed, and the antichristians
will turn on the Christians, spilling their
blood...in the End of the Age
While the antichristians will turn on the
Christians, spilling their blood in the endtimes
(Matthew 24:9), Acts 2:20 refers to a literal
darkening of the sun at one point in the endtimes
(Revelation 6:12), like the literal darkening of the
sun at the spilling of the blood of Christ Himself
(Luke 23:45).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
Doug said on Jan 30, 4:41 pm: The good news of the
blessing of all nations, and the light of the
gospel, was turned to darkness ... by Augustine's
doctrine of the endless torment of unbelievers
That isn't Augustine's doctrine, but the Bible's
(Revelation 14:10-11); nor does it darken the gospel
but is instead an integral part of the gospel, for
it shows us what that wrath is from which we are
saved (John 3:36).
Genesis 22:18 doesn't say that all individuals in
all nations will be blessed, but means that at least
some individuals from every nation will be blessed
(Revelation 5:9).
Doug said: The moon turning to blood in Joel's
prophecy may picture the destruction of the Jewish
nation by the Romans in the first century
Joel 2:31 will be fulfilled at a certain point during
the coming tribulation (Revelation 6:12), when the
moon could for a while appear blood-red, as it does
sometimes in these days where large forest fires have
filled the sky with thick smoke. Later in the
tribulation, the light from the literal moon will be
affected again, although in a different manner
(Revelation 8:12).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
Linda Lee said on Jan 31, 1:56 am: Prior to the
resurrection of the Messiah, the spirits of those
who died in an unrighteous state resided in what is
called Hades
They still reside there, and will until after the
millennium and a subsequent battle (Revelation
20:7-9), when they will be brought out of Hades at
the great white throne judgment to be cast into the
lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Linda Lee said: [Re: Luke 16:19-31]
... this parable
Luke 16:19-31 isn't a parable; nowhere is the word
"parable", or the words "like" or "as", ever used.
Linda Lee said: Mark 9:43-48 ... those verses do
not indicate that they continue to inhabit the
afterlife, either in Hell or in Paradise, in a
physical state
Those verses do indicate that (as does Isaiah 66:24),
for they are referring to the eternal torture of the
resurrection bodies of the unsaved, those
resurrected into damnation (John 5:29).
Linda Lee said: Matthew 10:28 indicates "hell fire"
(Gehenna/the 'lake of fire') destroys, not tortures
Matthew 10:28 doesn't say "not tortures", for there
the Greek word translated as "destroy" doesn't mean
annihilate; the same word is used to refer to some
"marred", as in ruined, wineskins (Mark 2:22).
Gehenna/the lake of fire is the place of eternal
torture (Revelation 20:10,15).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Linda Lee asked on Jan 31, 6:04 pm: Don't you think
Saul/Paul ... might have introduced some of that
paganism into Christianity?
The apostle Paul introduced no paganism into
Christianity; all of his Biblical writings are
scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16).
*******
(A Subsequent Poster)
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. said on Jan 31, 6:23 pm:
Just 'cause we've seen one aspect of Messiah does
NOT mean we won't see the other. They've abused His
good grace. Let's see how they do when the provoke
His wrath, He coming to destroy wonderfully all
those who oppose Him, fulfilling the OTHER
portrayal of Messiah in the prophets
That's right, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 will fulfill
Isaiah 66:15-16.
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
03 Feb 2008 10:41:19 AM |
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On February 3, 2008 09:58 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug said on Jan 28, 6:16 am: In prophecy, the sun
represents the gospel
In prophecy, the sun can represent itself (Revelation
7:16).
Sure it can, but the sun in Joel's prophecy of Joel 2:31-32 is the
gospel. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to
pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath
said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
See what it says in vs 32? That "whosoever shall call on the name of the
LORD shall be delivered". Delivered from what? Delivered from death, as
Christ has died to take away the sins of *all men*. And the "mount Zion"
and "Jerusalem" mentioned here are prophetic names of the church!
Doug said: Matthew identified the gospel with the
"great light" that Isaiah foresaw
Isaiah 9:2 doesn't say that the great light is the
sun; it could be Jesus Himself, who is brighter than
the noonday sun (Acts 26:13-15).
Matthew 4:12-17 doesn't say that Isaiah 9:2's great
light is the gospel; it could be Jesus Himself (John
8:12).
And it could be Jacob too, as he identified himself with the sun. [Genesis
37:10] But Jacob represented the gospel, that in the seed of Abraham
(Christ) all nations will be blessed, so that fits. And Jesus is called the
light of the world, because the gospel is all about him! He is one who
raises us up from the grave, and he is the "resurrection" and the life.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth
in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Doug said: Everyone sits "in the region and shadow
of death", as we all have to die
Those Christians who survive until the second coming
will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).
Right, but all are mortal, and so all humans sit "in the region and shadow
of death".
Doug said: The gospel shows us the truth about
death, and what happens after death
The gospel shows us that Jesus Himself is the truth
(John 14:6); and Jesus shows us that the conscious
souls of the unsaved dead are tormented in Hades
No, that is the anti-gospel of the locusts! [Rev 9:1-11]
Jesus performed many miracles and good deeds when he was on earth, to
demonstrate to us that God is not an evil monster who would torment people!
(Luke 16:22-24), and that the conscious souls of the
saved dead go into heaven (Revelation 6:9-11).
Doug said: The sun is also called a great light
The literal sun is called a great light (Genesis
1:16), as is Jesus Himself (Acts 22:6-8).
Doug said: ... the sun clothes the woman in
Revelation 12:1, who represents the church
In Revelation 12:1, the church is clothed with
the Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2); the righteous
shine forth as the sun (Matthew 13:43).
It is the gospel which clothes the woman, but the true gospel, which is a
great light spiritually, like the sun in the material world, has been
darkened by the false doctrines of "immortality of the soul" from Plato,
and by the notion of unending infernal torment, introduced into the church
by Augustine, probably from his Manichean background.
The woman in Revelation 12:1 is also the bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem,
and the gospel is what clothes her; a bride is not "clothed" by her
husband. The clothing becomes "black as sackcloth of hair", Revelation
6:12. This is because of false doctrines and pagan superstitions that were
introduced into the church.
The church is to be clothed with righteousness
(Revelation 19:8).
Jesus Himself is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6).
Doug said: So clearly, the sun represents the
gospel
This hasn't been shown.
Well, Jesus is the one who "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and
no man openeth;" [Revelation 3:7]. If you want to have your mind opened, go
to Him!
While the gospel is a light (2 Corinthians 4:4); it
hasn't been shown that the gospel is the sun.
Doug said: ... the gospel of Jesus, represented by
the sun, was turned to darkness, as Joel's prophecy
foretold
It hasn't been shown that the gospel is anywhere
represented by the sun.
See comment above!
Joel 2:31 refers to what will appear to happen to
the literal sun during the coming tribulation
(Revelation 6:12).
The sun is darkened quite frequently during a solar eclipse, and that common
natural event may be the basis of Joel's prophecy, but the spiritual
meaning of Joel's prophecy is that the gospel is obscured and turned to
darkness by the false teaching about the immortality of the soul, and by
the idea of unending infernal torment, that is derived from paganism.
Doug said: ... pagan ideas about the immortality of
the soul
The soul is not immortal (James 5:20).
Doug said: ... the false teachers that the Apostle
Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 2. The "damnable
doctrines" they taught included the ancient
superstition of unending infernal torments of the
souls of the wicked
2 Peter 2 doesn't say that the eternal torment of the
unsaved is a damnable doctrine, because it is a
Biblical doctrine (Revelation 14:10-11).
For an explanation of the Gk 'aionios' see: "The greek word aión --
aiónios... by Rev. John Wesley Hanson, A.M."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
<snip>
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
04 Feb 2008 03:07:53 AM |
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Doug said on Feb 3, 8:41 am: ... the sun in Joel's
prophecy of Joel 2:31-32 is the gospel
Actually, the sun in Joel 2:31 is just the sun, like
the darkened sun in Luke 23:45 is just the sun; the
literal sun will appear to be darkened at one point
during the coming tribulation (Revelation 6:12), just
as the light from the literal sun will be affected
again, in a different manner, later in the
tribulation (Revelation 8:12).
Doug asked: See what it says in [Joel 2] vs 32?
That "whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD
shall be delivered". Delivered from what?
Delivered from the chaos going on in Jerusalem at the
second coming (Zechariah 14:1-5).
Doug said: Delivered from death, as Christ has died
to take away the sins of *all men*
While Christ's sacrificial suffering and death was
sufficient to take away the sins of all men (1 John
2:2), it will not in fact do so, for only a
relatively few people will be saved (Matthew 7:14).
The "remnant" of Jews delivered in Joel 2:32 (cf.
Romans 9:27) will be those who will survive until
the second coming and all become believers at that
time (Romans 11:26); they will not only be delivered
from physical death by being granted a way of escape
from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5), but they will also
be delivered from spiritual death by being granted
salvation (Zechariah 12:10).
Doug said: [Re: Joel 2:31-32] ... the "mount Zion"
and "Jerusalem" mentioned here are prophetic names
of the church
Joel 2:32 does have application to the church
(Romans 10:13), which consists of all believing Jews
as well as all believing Gentiles (Romans 10:12),
insofar as the New Covenant by which the church is
saved (Matthew 26:28) is allegorically represented
by the heavenly New Jerusalem, the spiritual
"mother" of all believers (Galatians 4:24-26); just
as the heavenly Jerusalem, or heavenly Zion (or Sion)
is the literal dwelling place in heaven of all the
souls of dead believers, saved by Jesus' blood of the
New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24); and just as after
the resurrection of all believers (and after the
millennium and white throne judgment), New Jerusalem
will descend from heaven to the new earth and be the
eternal dwelling place of all believers (Revelation
21:1-5).
But, currently, the old Jerusalem on the old earth
allegorically represents the spiritual bondage of
those who wrongly continue to place themselves under
the Old Covenant (Galatians 4:24-25). The old
Jerusalem on the old earth will be spiritually
desolate until the second coming (Matthew 23:38-39),
when Jesus will spiritually purge it (Isaiah 4:4),
and fulfill Daniel 9:24 in it physically, and make it
the capital of the world during His millennial reign
on the earth (Micah 4:1-4).
Doug said: [Re: Isaiah 9:2's great light could be
Jesus Himself (John 8:12)]
And it could be Jacob too, as he identified himself
with the sun. [Genesis 37:10]
Isaiah 9:2 doesn't refer to the sun; nor does it
refer to the man Jacob, for Matthew 4:13-16 says
that Isaiah 9:2 was fulfilled when Jesus went to
live in Capernaum, many hundreds of years after the
man Jacob had died.
Doug said: Jacob represented the gospel, that in
the seed of Abraham (Christ) all nations will be
blessed
The man Jacob didn't represent the gospel insofar as
he wasn't the seed through which all nations would be
blessed (Genesis 22:18); Jesus was (Galatians 3:16).
And Genesis 22:18 didn't mean that all individuals in
all nations would be blessed, because God has chosen
to bless relatively few people (Matthew 22:14), and
He will eternally curse some people (Matthew
25:41,46). Genesis 22:18 meant that at least some
people from all nations would be blessed (Revelation
5:9).
Doug said: Jesus is called the light of the world,
because the gospel is all about him
It's the other way around, the gospel is called a
light (2 Corinthians 4:4) because it preaches the
light of Jesus Himself (John 8:12).
Doug said: He is one who raises us up from the
grave, and he is the "resurrection" and the life.
John 11:25
Amen, but that doesn't mean that all individuals will
be saved, for some will be resurrected not into
eternal life, but into damnation (John 5:29), even
eternal damnation (Mark 3:29), eternal judgment
(Hebrews 6:2); for their judgment will be to be cast
into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15) to be
tormented forever (Revelation 14:10-11) like the
devil (Revelation 20:10), to be cursed and punished
forever like the devil (Matthew 25:41,46), their
father (1 John 3:8-10).
Doug said: ... all are mortal, and so all humans
sit "in the region and shadow of death"
While all believers are mortal, they no longer sit
in the region and shadow of death insofar as for
them Jesus has abolished death, and has brought life
and immortality to light through the gospel
(2 Timothy 1:10); so that for believers to die is no
longer something bad, but is even gain (Philippians
1:21,23), a blessing (Revelation 14:13). And those
believers who will survive until the second coming
will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51).
Doug said: [Re: Jesus shows us that the conscious
souls of the unsaved dead are tormented in Hades]
No, that is the anti-gospel of the locusts
[Revelation 9:1-11]
Luke 16:22-24 is in no way against the gospel, but
shows the fate of those who reject the gospel; and
the demonic locusts who will come out of hell during
the coming tribulation (Revelation 9:2-3,11) aren't
shown as teaching anything at all.
Doug said: Jesus performed many miracles and good
deeds when he was on earth, to demonstrate to us
that God is not an evil monster who would torment
people
God is not an evil monster for tormenting the
unsaved after their deaths, for their torment is
God's Holy and righteous wrath against sin
(Romans 2:5). At His second coming, Jesus Himself
will even reveal God's wrath against the unsaved
still alive on the earth (Revelation 19:11-21).
Doug said: [Re: Revelation 12:1] It is the gospel
which clothes the woman
Rather, she is clothed with the Sun of righteousness
(Malachi 4:2); the church is clothed with
righteousness (Revelation 19:8).
Doug said: ... the true gospel ... has been
darkened by the false doctrines of "immortality of
the soul" from Plato, and by the notion of unending
infernal torment, introduced into the church by
Augustine
The soul is not immortal (James 5:20), but the
doctrine that the souls of the saved will become
immortal (Romans 2:7), as will their bodies
(1 Corinthians 15:53), is an integral part of the
true gospel (2 Timothy 1:10). And the doctrine of
eternal torment of the unsaved is not from Augustine,
but from the scriptures (Revelation 14:10-11), nor
does it in any way darken the true gospel, but rather
it shines a light on what that wrath is from which we
are saved (1 Thessalonians 5:9) by believing the
gospel of Jesus (John 3:36).
Doug said: The woman in Revelation 12:1 is also the
bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem
While the woman in Revelation 12:1 is the church, and
the church is the bride of Christ (Ephesians
5:31-32), the church is not the literal city of New
Jerusalem, which (in its allegorical connection with
the New Covenant) is the "mother" of the church
(Galatians 4:26), and which literal city is now in
heaven (Hebrews 12:22) and will descend to the new
earth (Revelation 21:1-2). That literal city is
called the bride of Christ (Revelation 21:9-10) only
insofar as its form pictures the church founded
(Ephesians 2:20) by the apostles of Christ
(Revelation 21:14) and in which even believing
Gentiles have been grafted into (Romans 11:17) and
made fellowcitizens (Ephesians 2:12,19) in the true
Israel (Revelation 21:12); and insofar as it is the
church which is now inhabiting that literal city in
heaven (Hebrews 12:22-23), and which will inhabit it
on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-5), while the
unsaved will be left outside its walls (Revelation
22:15) in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) to be
tormented forever on the new earth (Isaiah 66:22,24).
Doug said: ... a bride is not "clothed" by her
husband
That's what Genesis 20:16 means, that Sarah was
figuratively clothed with the veil of her husband
Abraham. The church in Revelation 12:1 is
figuratively clothed with the Sun of righteousness
(Malachi 4:2), who is Jesus Himself (Jeremiah 23:6),
her husband (Ephesians 5:31-32).
Doug said: The clothing becomes "black as sackcloth
of hair", Revelation 6:12
While even the Sun of righteousness, Jesus Himself,
could be said to have figuratively become black as
sackcloth of hair when He was turned into sin itself
(2 Corinthians 5:21) on the cross, so that even the
literal sun was darkened during that time (Luke
23:45), the church in Revelation 12:1 is clothed
with the Sun of righteousness as He is now, after
His resurrection (Revelation 1:14-15); now He is
light again, and in Him is no darkness at all (John
1:5).
Revelation 6:12 doesn't refer to the Sun of
righteousness, but to the literal sun (like
Revelation 7:16), and what will appear to happen to
it at one point during the coming tribulation; just
as Revelation 8:12 refers to what will happen to the
light from the literal sun at a later point in the
tribulation.
Doug said: [Re: Revelation 14:10-11] For an
explanation of the Gk 'aionios' see ... [Hanson]
The torment of the unsaved in fire and brimstone day
and night will be just as forever and ever as the
torment of the devil (Revelation 20:10,15).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Doug said on Feb 3, 9:35 am: [Re: Genesis 37:9]
It implies 12 stars, the 12th star being Joseph
Actually, it doesn't imply a twelfth star, but rather
implies that the sun was bowing before a light even
greater than itself (cf. Acts 26:13).
Doug said: Rachel is identified with the Jews in
the NT
Actually, she's only identified with the Jewish
women in Bethlehem and nearby villages whose babies
were slaughtered by Herod (Matthew 2:16-18); for
Rachel herself died nearby Bethlehem (Genesis
35:19), and her tomb can still be seen there today.
Doug said: ... as the moon reflects light from the
sun, the history of Israel recorded in the OT is a
type or figure for the Church [1 Corinthians 10:11]
1 Corinthians 10:11 doesn't refer to Israel as the
moon. And a "type" is not a reflection of something
which already exists, but rather a foreshadowing of
something which does not yet exist.
Doug said: The woman of Revelation 12:1 has the
moon at her feet, just as the church is founded
upon the prophets of Israel (along with Christ and
the Apostles)
The church isn't founded upon the prophets of Old
Testament Israel, but on the apostles and prophets
(Ephesians 2:20) of the church (1 Corinthians 12:28),
to whom was revealed the gospel (Ephesians 3:5), and
who edify the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-12). The
twelve apostles of the church are not under the feet
of the church, but rule over (cf. Hebrews 13:17) the
church (1 Corinthians 12:28), and so are represented
by the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation
12:1).
The moon "under her feet" (Revelation 12:1) could be
something bad which Jesus has defeated for her
(Romans 16:20); Revelation 12:11 could be a direct
statement of the victory represented by Revelation
12:1.
Doug said: She is clothed with the gospel, the
great light [Matthew 4:16]
Matthew 4:16 doesn't refer to the sun; and there the
great light could be Jesus Himself (Matthew 4:13-16),
for He Himself is the light (John 8:12).
Doug said: ... many of those in the church promote
doctrines of men, which obscure the righteousness
of God
Yes, and one of those doctrines is the denial of
God's righteous wrath against sin (Romans 2:5), even
forever (Revelation 14:10-11).
Doug said: The moon turning to blood in Joel's
prophecy is fulfilled by the destruction of the
Jewish nation by the Romans in the first century,
and frequent tribulations of the Jews since then,
culminating in the holocaust
There is a great danger here that people could think
that one is implying that the moon under the church's
feet also represents the destruction of the Jewish
nation, under the feet of a Gentile church (cf. the
destruction of the Jewish nation and the treading of
Jerusalem under the feet of the Gentiles in Luke
21:24 and Revelation 11:2).
But thank God it hasn't been shown that the moon
represents the Jewish nation; and Joel 2:31 is
referring only to what will appear to happen to the
literal moon at one point during the coming
tribulation (Revelation 6:12), just as Revelation
8:12 shows what will happen to the light from the
literal moon at a later point in the tribulation.
Doug said: [Re: Revelation 12] The "war in heaven"
of verse 7 involves exposing these false teachings
and people discovering the truth
Actually, the war in heaven in Revelation 12:7-9
is a literal angelic war which will take place at one
point during the coming tribulation, just as Jude 1:9
refers to a literal angelic contention between the
archangel Michael and the devil which took place in
the past.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
04 Feb 2008 02:54:12 PM |
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On February 4, 2008 04:07 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug said on Feb 3, 8:41 am:
<snip>
Doug said: The woman of Revelation 12:1 has the
moon at her feet, just as the church is founded
upon the prophets of Israel (along with Christ and
the Apostles)
The church isn't founded upon the prophets of Old
Testament Israel, but on the apostles and prophets
(Ephesians 2:20) of the church
Jesus himself was a prophet, and he is the one foretold by all the prophets
of the OT.
Peter said to the Jews, "But those things, which God before had shewed by
the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so
fulfilled." [Acts 3:18]
In his epistles he wrote exhorting believers to take heed to the prophets of
the OT who had written of them.
1 Peter 1:10
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who
prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
2 Peter 3:2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy
prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and
Saviour:
Paul based all his preaching and teaching on the law and the prophets. He
said to king Agrippa, "Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue
unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things
than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:" [Acts 26:22]
We can see Paul makes reference to the OT prophets in the following
scriptures:
Romans 1:2
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being
witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 11:3
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am
left alone, and they seek my life.
Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according
to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for
the obedience of faith:
Hebrews 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the
fathers by the prophets,
James 5:10
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord,
for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
There were prophets in the NT church, but either their words are included in
the NT, in Acts, the epistles, or Revelation, or we don't have any record
of their revelations. If there is no record of their words, how can the
church be founded on them?
<snip>
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
04 Feb 2008 10:08:47 AM |
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On February 4, 2008 04:07 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug said on Feb 3, 8:41 am: ...
<snip>
Doug said: ... the true gospel ... has been
darkened by the false doctrines of "immortality of
the soul" from Plato, and by the notion of unending
infernal torment, introduced into the church by
Augustine
The soul is not immortal (James 5:20), but the
doctrine that the souls of the saved will become
immortal (Romans 2:7), as will their bodies
(1 Corinthians 15:53), is an integral part of the
true gospel (2 Timothy 1:10). And the doctrine of
eternal torment of the unsaved is not from Augustine,
Certainly it is, and he develops that doctrine, based on very spurious
arguments, such as the superstition that salamanders live in fire. In City
of God (Book XXI Chapter 4), Augustine wrote, "If, therefore, the
salamander lives in fire, as naturalists have recorded, and if certain
famous mountains of Sicily have been continually on fire from the remotest
antiquity until now, and yet remain entire, these are sufficiently
convincing examples that everything which burns is not consumed. As the
soul too, is a proof that not everything which can suffer pain can also
die, why then do they yet demand that we produce real examples to prove
that it is not incredible that the bodies of men condemned to everlasting
punishment may retain their soul in the fire, may burn without being
consumed, and may suffer without perishing? For suitable properties will
be communicated to the substance of the flesh by Him who has endowed the
things we see with so marvellous and diverse properties, that their very
multitude prevents our wonder."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120121.htm
The section title is "Examples from Nature Proving that Bodies May Remain
Unconsumed and Alive in Fire". He postulates that God endows the souls of
those he torments with the capacity to suffer. The superstition about
salamanders appears to be based on hearsay, as salamanders were often
observed escaping from burning logs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander
Numerous legends have developed around the salamander over the centuries,
many related to fire. This connection likely originates from the tendency
of many salamanders to dwell inside rotting logs. When placed into a fire,
the salamander would attempt to escape from the log, lending to the belief
that the salamander was created from flames. Associations of the salamander
with fire appear in the Talmud and the Hadith, as well as in the writings
of Conrad Lycosthenes, Benvenuto Cellini, Ray Bradbury, David Weber,
Paracelsus and Leonardo da Vinci.
One myth claimed salamanders had the power to extinguish fire, but
experiments eventually showed this to be false. "Whereas it is commonly
said that a salamander extinguisheth fire, we have found by experience that
on hot coals, it dieth immediately." --Sir T. Browne.
Augustine's idea of unending infernal torment qualifies him as one of the
locusts of Revelation 9:1-11, who promote that false doctrine, and are a
great "woe" upon the earth. And it is very interesting to notice that the
locusts are said to wear "crowns like gold" [Revelation 9:7]. If they are
not real gold, perhaps they have a golden colour. Because he is widely
regarded as a saint, Augustine is often depicted with a golden halo over
his head, which resembles a crown of gold! For example see:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainta02.htm
http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/augustin.htm
http://imagesofheaven.org/Indoor/StAugustineHippo.html (For anyone
interested, this site sells statues of St Augustine complete with halo.
There are 2 sizes, 20" for $146, 25" for $206)
<snip>
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
04 Feb 2008 08:15:11 AM |
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On February 4, 2008 04:07 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug said on Feb 3, 8:41 am: ... the sun in Joel's
prophecy of Joel 2:31-32 is the gospel
Actually, the sun in Joel 2:31 is just the sun, like
the darkened sun in Luke 23:45 is just the sun; the
literal sun will appear to be darkened at one point
during the coming tribulation
Solar eclipses in which the sun is darkened are natural events. The
significance of the prophecy of Joel about the sun turning to darkness is
spiritual. It is the gospel that is obscured by false teachings, such as
the pagan superstition of unending infernal torment.
(Revelation 6:12), just
as the light from the literal sun will be affected
again, in a different manner, later in the
tribulation (Revelation 8:12).
Doug asked: See what it says in [Joel 2] vs 32?
That "whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD
shall be delivered". Delivered from what?
Delivered from the chaos going on in Jerusalem at the
second coming (Zechariah 14:1-5).
No, it is far more significant than that, and applies to everyone, not just
those living near the earthly city of Jerusalem. Joel refers to the gospel;
all who call on the name of the LORD are delivered from death! They become
part of the church, the "Jerusalem which is above".
<snip>
Doug said: Jesus is called the light of the world,
because the gospel is all about him
It's the other way around, the gospel is called a
light (2 Corinthians 4:4) because it preaches the
light of Jesus Himself (John 8:12).
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe
not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of
God, should shine unto them.
The gospel is indeed a great light! But its light is hidden because of false
teachings that were introduced into the church early in the Christian era,
as foretold by the Apostle Peter, who said some would introduced "damnable
heresies". "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as
there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in
damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon
themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of." [2 Peter
2:1-2]
One of these was the doctrine of unending infernal torment of unbelievers.
<snip>
Doug said: Jesus performed many miracles and good
deeds when he was on earth, to demonstrate to us
that God is not an evil monster who would torment
people
God is not an evil monster for tormenting the
unsaved after their deaths, for their torment is
God's Holy and righteous wrath against sin
(Romans 2:5). At His second coming, Jesus Himself
will even reveal God's wrath against the unsaved
still alive on the earth (Revelation 19:11-21).
Most countries, states, provinces have laws against cruelty to animals, and
cruelty and torture even towards one's enemies, is considered a criminal
offence in international law. How is it that those who approve such laws as
just and fair and humane fail to understand that for God to torment people
forever in the afterlife would also be evil? Of course the true God does
not do that! Those who claim he does, obscure the gospel by promoting
ancient pagan superstition! This teaching has turned the sun to darkness,
the sun being the gospel, which is good news and a blessing for all
nations.
Doug said: [Re: Revelation 12:1] It is the gospel
which clothes the woman
Rather, she is clothed with the Sun of righteousness
(Malachi 4:2); the church is clothed with
righteousness (Revelation 19:8).
The gospel is what reveals the righteousness of God to man, just as the sun
gives light to everyone. Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of
Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that
believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the
righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The
just shall live by faith." [Romans 1:16-17]
Christ has made known God's righteousness, by taking on himself the penalty
of sin, that is required by the law, (which is death, not unending infernal
torment!)
Paul wrote, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God
which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the
glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption
that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation
through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission
of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" [Romans 3:21-25]
This is the good news.
Doug said: ... the true gospel ... has been
darkened by the false doctrines of "immortality of
the soul" from Plato, and by the notion of unending
infernal torment, introduced into the church by
Augustine
The soul is not immortal (James 5:20), but the
doctrine that the souls of the saved will become
immortal (Romans 2:7), as will their bodies
(1 Corinthians 15:53), is an integral part of the
true gospel (2 Timothy 1:10). And the doctrine of
eternal torment of the unsaved is not from Augustine,
but from the scriptures (Revelation 14:10-11), nor
does it in any way darken the true gospel, but rather
it shines a light on what that wrath is from which we
are saved (1 Thessalonians 5:9) by believing the
gospel of Jesus (John 3:36).
This is false, as the law makes no mention of eternal torment as a penalty
of sin. Christ fulfilled the law, and his death (not his suffering endless
torment) took away the sins of the world, and displays the righteousness of
God. But the pagan doctrine of unending infernal torment, that was taught
by Augustine, obscures the light of the gospel, and the righteousness of
God, picturing him as cruel, and unforgiving. Augustine was one of those
men foretold by the Apostle Peter, in 2 Peter 2, who would bring false
teachings into the church.
<snip>
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
05 Feb 2008 08:49:45 AM |
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Doug said on Feb 4, 6:15 am: The significance of
the prophecy of Joel about the sun turning to
darkness is spiritual
As with Luke 23:45, whether or not the "significance"
is spiritual, Joel 2:31 is referring to a literal
darkening of the sun.
Doug said: It is the gospel that is obscured by
false teachings, such as the pagan superstition of
unending infernal torment
The eternal torment of the unsaved is a Biblical
doctrine (Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, 21:8,
Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:22,24)
which in no way obscures the gospel, but instead
makes clear what that wrath is from which we are
saved (1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 3:36).
Doug said: Joel refers to the gospel; all who call
on the name of the LORD are delivered from death
Joel 2:32 itself isn't referring to the gospel, but
to the deliverance of a remnant of Jews in Jerusalem
who will be provided a way of physical escape from
the second-coming battle in Jerusalem (Zechariah
14:2-5, Isaiah 66:6). After Jesus wins the battle and
peace has been restored to Jerusalem, these same
Jerusalem Jews will also be spiritually saved
(Zechariah 12:9-14). For Paul, the remnant of
Jerusalem Jews saved at the second coming by calling
on the name of the Lord synecdochically represent
the remnant of all of humanity, Jews and Gentiles
alike, who can be saved at any time after the first
coming by calling on the name of the Lord (Romans
10:12-13). Paul thus takes an Old Testament reference
with specific application to non-Christian Jews and
uses it to help express a general truth applicable to
the church. Another example of this is found in
Romans 10:8, where Paul uses Deuteronomy 30:14, a
specific reference to the Mosaic law, to refer
instead to the faith of the church. In this way, Paul
shows how "all scripture" can be made profitable to
the church (2 Timothy 3:16).
Doug said: [Re: Joel 2:32] They become part of the
church, the "Jerusalem which is above"
Absolutely, the remnant of endtime non-Christian Jews
who will all be saved at the second coming (Romans
9:27, 11:32) by calling on the name of the Lord in
Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:10) will become as much a
part of the church as any other believers, for there
is only one faith and one body (Ephesians 4:4-5). But
the church is not the "Jerusalem which is above",
New Jerusalem, for that literal city in heaven
(Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 21:2), in its allegorical
connection to the New Covenant, is the "mother" of
the church (Galatians 4:26).
Doug asked: How is it that those who approve such
laws [against cruelty to animals] ... fail to
understand that for God to torment people forever
in the afterlife would also be evil?
It's not evil because it is God's righteous wrath
against sin (Romans 2:5). And as the Creator, God has
the right to do with His creatures whatever He
wants, even make them vessels of His eternal wrath
(Romans 9:21-22, Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15).
Doug said: ... the law makes no mention of eternal
torment as a penalty of sin
It does insofar as it says that sinful souls must
suffer death (e.g. Exodus 31:14, Ezekiel 18:20),
and God's fiery wrath burns in hell (Deuteronomy
32:22), where people have pains (Psalms 116:3); and
God's fiery wrath will burn forever (Jeremiah 17:4)
in the hell on the new earth (Isaiah 66:22,24, Mark
9:45-46), where people will have pains forever, the
second death (Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, 21:8,
Matthew 25:41,46).
Doug said: Christ fulfilled the law, and his death
(not his suffering endless torment) took away the
sins of the world
Christ also suffered for our sins (1 Peter 3:18);
and His suffering was infinite, because, as God (John
1:1,14), His soul was infinite, and so the suffering
of His soul was infinite (not in duration, but in
amount); and so the suffering of His soul was able
to "satisfy" (Isaiah 53:11) the Father's requirement
of infinite suffering for sin, which for finite souls
requires an infinite duration of suffering.
Doug said: ... picturing him as cruel, and
unforgiving
Toward some sinners, God can be cruel (Isaiah 13:9)
and unforgiving (Matthew 6:15, Mark 3:29), while
toward other sinners He can be kind and merciful
(Romans 9:13-24).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Doug said on Feb 4, 8:08 am: Augustine's idea of
unending infernal torment qualifies him as one of
the locusts of Revelation 9:1-11, who promote that
false doctrine, and are a great "woe" upon the
earth
The Bible itself clearly teaches eternal torment
(Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46,
Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:22,24). And Revelation 9
doesn't say that the demonic locusts who will come
up from hell during the coming tribulation
(Revelation 9:2-3,11) will teach any doctrine at
all. The woe they will bring on mankind for five
months will be physical pain from their stings
(Revelation 9:10), just as, after the locusts, the
woe that the 200 million demonic horses and riders
will bring will be the killing of 1/3 of mankind
(Revelation 9:16-18).
Doug said: [Re: Revelation 9:7] Augustine is often
depicted with a golden halo over his head, which
resembles a crown of gold
If one wants to rightly admit that Revelation 9:7-10
refers to what the locusts look like, then one must
abandon one's wrong idea that they are humans; for
humans don't look like they're shaped like horses,
don't look like they have teeth like lions, don't
look like they have wings, and male humans don't look
like they have the hair of women (if they do, it is
a shame to them, 1 Corinthians 11:14).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Doug said on Feb 4, 9:55 am: ... the moon
represents Old Testament Israel
Actually, no scripture shows that, for Old Testament
Israel won't turn to blood at one point during the
coming tribulation; it will be the literal moon which
will appear to do so (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:13).
Doug said: Paul said the church is founded upon the
prophets of Israel, and the apostles, and Christ
Ephesians 2:20 doesn't refer to the prophets of Old
Testament Israel, but to the prophets of the church
(1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 3:5, 4:11).
*******
(A Subsequent Post)
Doug asked on Feb 4, 12:54 pm: [Re: The prophets of
the church] If there is no record of their words,
how can the church be founded on them?
Ephesians 2:20 isn't referring to the recorded
sayings used by the church today, but to the actual
people themselves who first built the church (Matthew
16:18, Ephesians 4:11-12), including the actual
prophets of the church who (like the apostles) built
up the early church by what they said in person to
people in those times (Acts 15:32).
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The sun turned to darkness |
05 Feb 2008 10:07:15 AM |
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On February 5, 2008 09:49 am, Read The Bible <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote:
Doug said on Feb 4, 6:15 am: The significance of
the prophecy of Joel about the sun turning to
darkness is spiritual
As with Luke 23:45, whether or not the "significance"
is spiritual, Joel 2:31 is referring to a literal
darkening of the sun.
Joel may have seen an eclipse of the sun, or heard of one, but his prophecy
has a lot more meaning for Christians than that. It is pagan doctrines such
as the immortality of the soul and unending infernal torment of unbelievers
that destroy the gospel message and turn the sun into darkness.
Doug said: It is the gospel that is obscured by
false teachings, such as the pagan superstition of
unending infernal torment
The eternal torment of the unsaved is a Biblical
doctrine
No, it is not. It is the doctrine of the locusts, the enemies of the gospel!
[Revelation 9:1-11]
(Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15, 21:8,
Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:22,24)
Only by misinterpreting these scriptures is "eternal torment" supported.
Isaiah's reference to worms that don't die feeding on dead bodies, and
flames that are not put out does not say anyone gets tormented endlessly.
Maggots that don't die turn into flies. Flames that are not put out run out
of fuel eventually.
which in no way obscures the gospel, but instead
makes clear what that wrath is from which we are
saved (1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 3:36).
The gospel says Christ saves us from death. Paul wrote, "Be not thou
therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but
be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of
God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according
to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given
us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the
appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath
brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
[2 Timothy 1:8-10]
Doug said: Joel refers to the gospel; all who call
on the name of the LORD are delivered from death
Joel 2:32 itself isn't referring to the gospel, but
to the deliverance of a remnant of Jews in Jerusalem
who will be provided a way of physical escape from
the second-coming battle in Jerusalem (Zechariah
14:2-5, Isaiah 66:6).
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished;
and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the
people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those
nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of
Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives
shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and
there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove
toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the
valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as
ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and
the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
The mount of Olives in Zechariah's prophecy represents the Olivet prophecy
of Jesus. He was on the mountain with his disciples when he gave that
prophecy.
The mountain being split pictures the two interpretations that are prevalent
today, Preterism and Dispensationalism. I suggest Preterism is the half
that moves to the north, and Dispensationalism the half that moves to the
south. These interpretations both say that the Olivet prophecy of Jesus
does not apply to the church in this age; Preterism says it was all
fulfilled in the first century AD. Dispensationalism says it is for a
future age, after the church has been "raptured" and is no longer on the
earth. Both interpretations are false of course. Zechariah says we should
flee to the valley between, which represents the true meaning of the
prophecy, which applies to the entire history of the church.
After Jesus wins the battle and
peace has been restored to Jerusalem, these same
Jerusalem Jews will also be spiritually saved
(Zechariah 12:9-14). For Paul, the remnant of
Jerusalem Jews saved at the second coming by calling
on the name of the Lord synecdochically represent
the remnant of all of humanity, Jews and Gentiles
alike, who can be saved at any time after the first
coming by calling on the name of the Lord (Romans
10:12-13). Paul thus takes an Old Testament reference
with specific application to non-Christian Jews and
uses it to help express a general truth applicable to
the church. Another example of this is found in
Romans 10:8, where Paul uses Deuteronomy 30:14, a
specific reference to the Mosaic law, to refer
instead to the faith of the church. In this way, Paul
shows how "all scripture" can be made profitable to
the church (2 Timothy 3:16).
Doug said: [Re: Joel 2:32] They become part of the
church, the "Jerusalem which is above"
Absolutely, the remnant of endtime non-Christian Jews
who will all be saved at the second coming (Romans
9:27, 11:32) by calling on the name of the Lord in
Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:10) will become as much a
part of the church as any other believers, for there
is only one faith and one body (Ephesians 4:4-5). But
the church is not the "Jerusalem which is above",
New Jerusalem, for that literal city in heaven
(Hebrews 12:22, Revelation 21:2), in its allegorical
connection to the New Covenant, is the "mother" of
the church (Galatians 4:26).
Doug asked: How is it that those who approve such
laws [against cruelty to animals] ... fail to
understand that for God to torment people forever
in the afterlife would also be evil?
It's not evil because it is God's righteous wrath
against sin (Romans 2:5).
Nonsense, common sense says it would be a great evil to afflict unending
torment on people. Even the savage Indian tribes in America understood
this, and many refused to worship such a cruel god, as portrayed by the
Jesuit missionaries. They tortured their enemies, hanging hot stones around
their necks, putting hot coals in their eyes, and pouring boiling water on
them, and similar atrocities, etc., but they knew eventually the victim
died and his pain ended. To paint God as one who inflicted such punishment
forever, attributes to him far more cruelty than those savage Indians
showed towards their victims!
And as the Creator, God has
the right to do with His creatures whatever He
wants, even make them vessels of His eternal wrath
(Romans 9:21-22, Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10,15).
Doug said: ... the law makes no mention of eternal
torment as a penalty of sin
It does insofar as it says that sinful souls must
suffer death (e.g. Exodus 31:14, Ezekiel 18:20),
Yes, and death is shown to be the same for man, as for beast, "For that
which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth
them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."
[Ecclesiastes 3:19]
and God's fiery wrath burns in hell (Deuteronomy
32:22), where people have pains (Psalms 116:3); and
God's fiery wrath will burn forever (Jeremiah 17:4)
"... for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh
flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. [Jeremiah 17:4-5]
Locusts who teach the doctrine of unending infernal torment of unbelievers,
introduced into the church by Augustine, trust in the doctrine of men.
<snip>
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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