Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong"



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Topic: Religions > Bible
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"
Date: 06 Aug 2004 11:08:17 PM
Object: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong"
Jumping in the middle, like I am, I may cover old ground, hopefully... I
just have questions I can't resist asking, and opinions I feel I must air,
please forgive me if I am out of turn
As this post is *very* long, I am going to do a lot of snipping to that
which seems to beg my response
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:UUyNb.8556$7R5.1837@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:bu4lj7$dnhan$1@ID-165613.news.uni-berlin.de...

Scott wrote:

<snip>
As concerning *Moral Relativism*

1) They all assert that one thing (e.g. moral values, beauty, knowledge,
taste, or meaning) is relative to some particular framework or standpoint
(e.g. the individual subject, a culture, an era, a language, or a

conceptual

scheme).
2) They all deny that any standpoint is uniquely privileged over all
others.

While I am a Christian (meaning I attempt to live by Christ's teachings, and
example, in accordance with my understanding of just what that is), with the
Holy Spirit's leading in His understanding of each individual's life,
situations, thought process, etc in each person's uniqueness, thrown into
the mix, I am (I believe) a Moral Relativest(sp). To me 2 Peter 1:20 states
that the scriptures all have at least two meanings, and don't believe that
any one understanding of the various texts applies to everyone, IOWs a
version of number two, in the above. I don't buy it when Christians argue
that their understandings of any text is the *only* possible "correct one"
which because it works for them, it *must* work the same for everyone
I am now in many threads, in many newsgroups arguing with many "my *truth*
is the *only* truth, types
Is this discussion limited only to atheistic moral relativism ? If so, I am
very much out of place in this thread, and ask forgiveness

http://www.moral-relativism.com/
Moral Relativism - What's It All About?
Moral Relativism is the theory that morality, or standards of right and
wrong, are culturally based and therefore become a matter of individual
choice. You decide what's right for you, and I'll decide what's right for
me. Moral relativism says, "It's true for me, if I believe it."

For Christian relativists, I don't think that, that is entirely correct,
more like "it is true for me, because it is the understanding the Holy
Spirit, and / or scriptures, have led me to" (left out is that, for the same
reason, and or what you have been taught to believe, the same may not be
true for you
IOWs I don't argue that whatever they believe to be true is incorrect for
them, but that it doesn't, or may not, be correct for me.

Moral Relativism - Is It Really Neutral?
Moral Relativism has gradually become the prevailing moral philosophy of
western society, a culture once governed largely by the Judeo-Christian
concept of morality. While those early standards continue to form the

basis

for civil law, people by and large are embracing the notion that right and
wrong are not absolute values, but are to be decided by the individual and
can change from one situation or circumstance to the next. Essentially,
moral relativism says that anything goes, because life is ultimately

without

meaning. Words like "ought" and "should" are rendered meaningless. In this
way, moral relativism claims to be morally neutral.

Again, for a believer, the above is not entirely true, because for the
believer, it isn't they who uniquely decides these thing, they are led to it
by their higher power, and or set of scriptures

In describing her view on morality, the President of Planned Parenthood
Federation of America once stated, ".teaching morality doesn't mean

imposing

my moral values on others. It means sharing wisdom, giving reasons for
believing as I do - and then trusting others to think and judge for
themselves."

I would agree, she can be merely explaining what her present standpoint is,
and why, leaving it up to the reader/hearer to decide how, if at all, the
same relates to them personally

She claims to be morally neutral, yet her message is clearly
intended to influence the thinking of others. an intention that is not, in
fact, neutral.

I firmly disagree, as I stated above

Evidence that moral relativism is seen as more "fair" or "neutral" than a
"hardline" stance on morality is seen in a 2002 column from Fox News

analyst

Bill O'Reilly, who asked "Why is it wrong to be right?" In his article,
O'Reilly cites recent Zogby poll findings regarding what is being taught

in

American universities. Studies indicate 75% of American college professors
currently teach that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

I would have to disagree with these professors, unless you are just leaving
out the word *absolute*

Rather, they treat the questions of good and evil as relative to

"individual values and

cultural diversity."

Such would, as I see it agree with Jesus' "Treat others as *you* would want
them to treat you" which leaves things up to ones own tastes and opinions !
Same with "loving others *as* *you* love yourself"

The problem with this, according to O'Reilly, is that
"they see the world not as it is, but as they want it to be. And annoying
questions about moral absolutes and unacceptable behavior are usually left
unanswered."
Moral Relativism - Where Do You Stand?
Moral Relativism is a worldview. To determine for yourself which position

to

hold where morality is concerned, you must first determine what you

believe

about the origin of life. Do you believe life evolved or do you believe

life

was created? Evolution and moral relativism go hand-in-hand, for evolution
teaches that life is accidental, without meaning or purpose. Therefore,
anything you do is OK, because it ultimately doesn't matter. If you

believe

we are created, however, moral relativism cannot work. Creation implies a
Creator. All things created are subject to a set of laws, whether natural

or

divine. Moral relativism says anything goes .but does it? Is it better to
torture a child, or to hug that child?

Why are you leaving out what many Christians believe, which is that God
created through evolution. IOWs we, as I am not alone in this that BOTH are
true, God Created, and life evolved
How would you present this "world view" ? Don't forget that with God's Holy
Spirit thrown in I hardly see it as "anything goes".
As to the question of the child, that would depend on the child, at the
moment, and what exactly are you calling *torture* to the kid the threat of
a spanking would be seen as torture.
This is as far as I had read, when I decided to respond

C.S. Lewis points to the nature of most quarrels as a clue to what we

truly

believe. Inherent in those quarrels is a concept of fairness, as in "how
would you like it if someone did that to you?" When we make that

statement,

we are appealing "to some kind of standard of behavior [we] expect" the
other person to know about. Where do you think that standard originates?

The persons own tastes, desires, likes, dislikes, and so on
<snip>

Ethical Relativism
But what if there are no common moral values? What if our moral beliefs

are

neither right nor wrong, but are simply "opinions" with no more objective
validity than such matters of individual preference as whether someone

likes

butter or sour cream on their potato? The position that makes this claim

is

commonly known as "ethical relativism."

If true, I do not agree with it, at least the way you discribed it (most
likely with a bias against this whole idea of Moral Relativism, which you
seem to be displaying; Which can color you representation into something
possibly not entirely true)

If the ethical relativists are
right, then there are no common standards of moral judgment, and the
ethicist, who would try to define such standards, is working in vain.
There are a couple of different versions of ethical relativism. One
version, individual relativism, claims that moral standards are relative

to

individual moral beliefs--that in effect what one believes is right is

right

with respect to one's own actions--and thus no sound moral argument
condemning the actions of a moral agent can be offered if the conclusion

of

the argument is inconsistent with the moral beliefs of the agent. A

typical

way in which this position is expressed is the following: "everyone has
different moral views, and will make different moral judgments under the
same circumstances, so there's no point in trying to find a common moral
standard because there is none." Another version of ethical relativism is
so-called cultural relativism. According to this view, moral standards

are

relative to cultural moral beliefs.

Wouldn't *culture* include one's religious beliefs ?

Thus although one can justifiably
condemn the actions of a person that are inconsistent with the moral

beliefs

of that person's culture, no condemnation of the actions of a person of a
certain culture can be justified if those actions are consistent with the
moral beliefs of that person's culture. Typically this position has been
offered to support the claim that we should respect the beliefs and
practices of other cultures in order to avoid allowing our own cultural
beliefs to be the basis of unfair assessments of these cultures.

Makes sense to me, have you traveled internationally very often ? Have you
lived in other cultures than the one in which you were raised ?

Thus the position might be expressed in this manner: "various cultures

throughout the

world have different moral standards, and it is simply a prejudice of our
own cultural perspective to find fault with these views."

OKay

Although there are a number of good arguments that can be offered
against ethical relativisms of either sort, one of the most

straightforward

ways of suggesting the implausibility of ethical relativism is to note the
implications of the view. It is particularly difficult to be a consistent
relativist when one is harmed or injured by others.

Indeed
<snip, escapes from reality, what ifisms, which forgets that each individual
is equally moral, and in the case of the majoritians and minoritians, you
leave out the minoritians culture, thus having the right to their *own*
morals>

If you find these implications objectionable then you cannot accept

ethical

relativism.

Unless of course you reject the validity of these *examples*

Another common reason that people adopt ethical relativism is the
erroneous view that if one rejects relativism, then the only alternative

is

to accept a position that they find unacceptable, commonly known as moral
absolutism:

Exactly, even your examples point to this, as a matter of fact, I found you
example of the majoritians and the minoritians to have been an EXCELLENT
example of *asbsolutism* as the more powerful, being the majority, or the
ones with better weapons, gets to decide, even IF they choose to base it on
some set of *scriptures* just what this *absolute morality* is to be !

the view that there are a certain set of moral rules that apply
in all relevant cases without exception. According to moral absolutism,

for

example, lying to others is always wrong, even in cases where, for

example,

not lying would result in great harm to others.

IF of course they deciding what is moral for *everyone* in *all cases*
happen to agree with the above.
IF not, such would not be the *absolute morality*

But rejecting ethical relativism does not require the acceptance of moral

absolutism, but the

acceptance of a broader position commonly called moral objectivism or

moral

realism. This view simply makes the claim that normative judgments can be
justified on objective (nonrelativistic) grounds, but a moral objectivist

is

not necessarily committed to the claim that moral standards are absolute.
Common moral standards can be understood to apply in different ways
depending on the circumstances of particular moral situations. So a lie
might be justified under certain circumstances.

WOW two more versions of *relative moralism* !! Sorry, but for me such is
what the above discribes.
The sticking point, is the inconsistancy of throwing *nonrelativistic* IOWs
*absolute morality* into the mix

Sometimes people embrace relativism as a reaction against traditional
moral beliefs that they regard as oppressive and odious. It certainly is
the case that people in the past, as many people of the present, have held
certain moral beliefs that from a more enlightened point of view are

clearly

objectionable, such as the moral permissibility of slavery, the moral
impermissibility of treating women as equals, and the like.

Once *absolutes*, which is say *moral relativism* is what has always existed
allowing morality to evolve, hopefully to better things. Without it morality
would be stagnet, what may be 'evil' within it, like things like slavery /
inequality, would never be removed

But the rejection of ethical relativism does not imply that traditional

moral

beliefs must be accepted.

If they aren't *absolute morality* ceases, and moral relativism kicks in
<snip>

.... Moral skepticism also loses sight
of the fact that historically many moral issues that were hotly debated in
the past have been settled in ways that no reasonable person would object

to

today: that slavery is immoral, that women should have the same legal

rights

as men, that racism is immoral, that religious freedom should be protected
by law, etc.

All thanks to moral relativism having done its work in the past, allowing
new *opinions* on morality to take hold

Moral argument played a crucial role in the resolution of
these issues. But from the point of view of moral relativism, we would

have

to conclude that the adoption of these beliefs in fact effected no advance
in moral understanding--that if these beliefs had been rejected, our

society

would be none the worse for it.

Hogwash

The common reasons, then, offered for adopting ethical relativism are,
on close examination, quite unconvincing, and in practice it is quite
difficult for any reasonable person to adopt the view consistently. At

any

rate, in this course we will accept moral objectivism as the basis of our
discussions: simply put, that moral positions can be justified on the

basis

of rationally supportable and objective criteria.

At this point I have lost interest
<snip>
.

User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 09 Aug 2004 03:02:43 PM
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10h8ldhk10m1o75@corp.supernews.com...


Jumping in the middle, like I am, I may cover old ground, hopefully... I
just have questions I can't resist asking, and opinions I feel I must air,
please forgive me if I am out of turn
As this post is *very* long, I am going to do a lot of snipping to that
which seems to beg my response

Glenn, I only happen to stumble on to your post. This thread has been dead
for months and no longer appears on my news reader so, yes, I think you are
out of turn.


"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:UUyNb.8556$7R5.1837@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...

"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:bu4lj7$dnhan$1@ID-165613.news.uni-berlin.de...

Scott wrote:


<snip>

As concerning *Moral Relativism*

1) They all assert that one thing (e.g. moral values, beauty,

knowledge,

taste, or meaning) is relative to some particular framework or

standpoint

(e.g. the individual subject, a culture, an era, a language, or a

conceptual

scheme).
2) They all deny that any standpoint is uniquely privileged over all
others.

1 and 2 are direct quotes from a professional philosophical web page by
stanford university IIRC.


While I am a Christian (meaning I attempt to live by Christ's teachings,

and

example, in accordance with my understanding of just what that is), with

the

Holy Spirit's leading in His understanding of each individual's life,
situations, thought process, etc in each person's uniqueness, thrown into
the mix, I am (I believe) a Moral Relativest(sp). To me 2 Peter 1:20

states

that the scriptures all have at least two meanings, and don't believe that
any one understanding of the various texts applies to everyone, IOWs a
version of number two, in the above. I don't buy it when Christians argue
that their understandings of any text is the *only* possible "correct one"
which because it works for them, it *must* work the same for everyone

I am now in many threads, in many newsgroups arguing with many "my *truth*
is the *only* truth, types

Is this discussion limited only to atheistic moral relativism ? If so, I

am

very much out of place in this thread, and ask forgiveness

snipping the rest because your reply here tells me you aren't familiar with
the philosophical terms themselves.
First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very good
understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding than
most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't attack
the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've found
that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to moral
disagreements if their materialism is true.
Materialism is *not* a conclusion. It, like Dualism, is a believed premise
*about* the nature of reality. To say Materialism uses materialistic means
to prove materialism true is just as much circular reasoning as saying the
bible is true because the bibles says it's true. Log that away in your
memory. You'll likely be able to point that out the next time an atheist
gives the biblical circular reasoning argument.
All Moral Theories are either categorized under Realism (sometimes called
cognativism) or Anti-Realism (sometimes called non-cognativism)
Examples of Realism are: moral objectivism, and moral absolutism. MO and MA
aren't quite the same thing. I think you are wanting to use "relativism" in
place of the more proper moral objectivism.
Examples of Anti-Realism are: moral relativism and moral subjectivism both
are actually the same thing with a slightly different perspective.
One problem with ethical philosophy is that there are a number of terms used
that actually mean the same thing. Moral objectivism is moral universalism.
What does this have to do with materialism and atheists? Most atheists
envision themselves as both humanists and materialist. That factually isn't
possible. Why? Because humanistic materialism is an oxymoron. Humanism
believes humans have intrinsic human rights that are inherent to humans. And
materialism denies all of that.
You be surprised at how many atheists this oxymoron hasn't dawned upon them.
Atheism simply means a disbelief in god(s). It doesn't follow that atheist
must be a materialist although I think the reverse does necessarily follow.
A materialist must be an atheist. A humanistic atheist is a person who,
although rejects god, believes in a *dualistic* reality; that is, he
unknowingly believes reality is both material and spiritual. In this case
spiritual equates moral truth. There is no materialistic evidence for moral
truth. That means, *if* materialism is true, as most atheists believe, then
the factual nature of Ethics (the meta-ethical) is Relativism. If Relativism
is fact then there is no such thing as moral progress, there is no such
thing as one moral system being better than another, and all moral systems
are equivalent because there can be no "Truth-Values" in morality. Moral
Truth can not exist to argue counter claims to these from *within*
materialism. In short, if materialism is true then the Americanism's idea of
morality supporting the Constitution and Declaration of Independence is no
better then that of Nazism or Islamic fundamentalists'. One system is ONLY
*preferable* by the individual (subjectivism) or a society (cultural
relativism).
As counter intuitive as this seems, if materialism is true then that is the
factual nature morality. What is moral and immoral is only subjective
preferences. To use an analogy: a painting is materialistically only canvas
and paint. It is not a fact that the paint is beautiful nor ugly. One person
may find the painting beautiful while another may find it ugly. Neither
one's opinion is better than the other. It is only a difference in likes and
dislikes, preferences. Beauty is not a fact but only a preference in the
"eye of the beholder".
Consider: In WWII Japanese soldiers tossed live Chinese babies into the air
while their buddy bayoneted them on the way down. That much is a
materialistic fact. Question: was this an example of a universal (meaning
objective) evil? If materialism is true, it isn't. If materialism is true,
this act is only something most would call evil. However, to the soldiers it
wasn't evil. It was having *good* fun. No action is truly evil if
materialism is in fact the true expression of reality. That goes counter
intuitive to what most people (including atheists) believe.
Now with the above in mind about my position, here are links supporting it
with the correct terminology that should get you up to speed with future
debates we might be in. I'm not going to respond any further on this thread:
Introduction to terms and their meanings:
click the links staring with "introduction" and take the tests at the bottom
of each page.
http://www.routledge.com/philosophy/cip/ethics.htm#ET
http://www.angelfire.com/ab3/freewill/IntroEthicsLect2.htm
http://libarts.wsu.edu/philo/faculty-staff/gibson/relativism%5B2%5D.htm
Problems with relativism (no moral progress):
http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~b-everman/victor/moral/Relativism_handout.pdf
Subjectivism/relativism:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/moral.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/moral2.html
Materialism:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_vitzthum/materialism.html
Be sure to note Keith Augustine's footnoted [14] where he, as a materialist,
states they have no ground for saying our ethics is better than Aztec human
sacrifice, Nazi or Serbian genocide. I'll quote it:
[14] An evolutionary account of the origin of moral judgment in human beings
does not tell us what (if anything) makes a specific action moral. On a
materialist view, all codes of conduct must ultimately be man-made or
socially constructed; there are no objective moral laws existing
independently of sentient beings in the way that laws of nature do. Thus
there are no objective criteria for determining if human actions are right
or wrong. The objectivity of laws of nature is clear--our approximations to
them (laws of physics) are publicly falsifiable and can be corroborated by
empirical evidence. Moreover, unlike natural laws, moral laws can be
violated. But if what we call moral laws are really man-made inventions, our
ethical rules are arbitrary and thus individuals are not obligated to follow
them. Nothing makes an action objectively moral or immoral; individual and
social codes vary because ethics, like beauty, is in the eye of the
beholder. But then there are no compelling grounds for arguing that Aztec
human sacrifice, Nazi or Serbian genocide, or infanticide is really wrong.
Core ethical rules are no doubt determined by intersubjective consensus
across cultures--for example, incest and murder are universally prohibited.
But such consensus does not demonstrate the objectivity of ethics; it merely
demonstrates that human beings or societies are largely 'built' the same way
and react similarly to certain types of behavior. Suppose we have inherited
an aversion to committing murder. That such a genetic disposition would be
widespread makes evolutionary sense. A known murderer's neighbors will fear
that the murderer might kill them. Out of mutual self-interest they would be
wise to band together and eliminate the murderer before he could eliminate
them. Since murderers would tend to be eliminated before they could
reproduce, individuals with a genetic inclination to commit murder would
tend to dwindle. But this is merely an accident of natural selection, and
trying to base morality on the fact that adhering to certain ethical norms
will make you more "fit" to stay alive and reproduce is insufficient. The
origin of behavior is irrelevant to whether a behavior is right or wrong;
what makes an individual evolutionarily 'fit' (e.g. infidelity) is not
necessarily moral. There will no doubt still be some individuals who are
genetically inclined to commit murder; but we do not conclude that the are
exempt from moral prohibitions on murder because of this. Furthermore, the
fitness of certain evolutionary traits changes when the environment changes.
Would murder suddenly become morally acceptable--even obligatory--if it
provided us a selective advantage? On a materialist account, the only
foundations for behavioral codes are preserving self-interest and satisfying
one's conscience--there are no additional 'moral facts' which motivate
behavior
I'm going to include this http://www.naturalism.org/freewill3.htm with a
qualification. The author is a materialist and humanists trying to counter
the fact that materialism and humanism is oxymoronic. His argument fails,
though, because he states " A thorough-going materialism, in which human
beings are no more than proximate causes, may be perfectly consistent with
having and defending a robust sense of right and wrong". There is no such
thing as a robust sense of right and wrong if materialism is true. Without
saying it, the author is assuming an objective morality, Natural Moral Law,
actually exists. As to the analogy I gave above, compare: What does it mean
to say "this painting may be perfectly consistent with having and defending
a robust sense of beauty"? It's a meaningless question since to materialism
beauty is not a fact but only subject opinion in the eye of the beholder.
again I'm not going to respond further to anything you reply on this thread.
The thread has terminated for me.
Scott
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 08:53:34 AM
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very good
understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding than
most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't attack
the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've found
that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to moral
disagreements if their materialism is true.

Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.
William
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 12:16:36 PM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very

good

understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding than
most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't

attack

the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've found
that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to moral
disagreements if their materialism is true.


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.

***** you, idiot. stupid *****. I'm not responding to this thread
any further than my reply to Glenn.
You *****
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 04:57:07 PM
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Up7Sc.1419$zx3.204@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very

good

understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding

than

most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't

attack

the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've

found

that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to

moral

disagreements if their materialism is true.


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.

***** you, idiot. stupid *****.

I see your mother forgot to wash your mouth out with soap

I'm not responding to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.

Try e-mail, much more *private*, newsgroups are for *public* discussion,
posting in them is putting a sign up, decalring *everyone welcome*. I am
slow to respond to my e-mail, so be patient, and *please* don't bring me a
fowl-mouth

You *****

You aren't very civil
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 08:52:15 AM
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10hl5hhp1jgu163@corp.supernews.com...


"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Up7Sc.1419$zx3.204@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a

very

good

understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding

than

most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't

attack

the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've

found

that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to

moral

disagreements if their materialism is true.


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.

***** you, idiot. stupid *****.


I see your mother forgot to wash your mouth out with soap

I'm not responding to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.


Try e-mail, much more *private*, newsgroups are for *public* discussion,
posting in them is putting a sign up, decalring *everyone welcome*. I am
slow to respond to my e-mail, so be patient, and *please* don't bring me a
fowl-mouth

You *****


You aren't very civil

Yes I am to those you are civil.
I respond in kind. If they punt the ad hominem at me I take it back to
them. My response here to William and David V is a carried over from other
threads.
Scott
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 06:11:31 PM
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:jCKSc.5426$vk.1231@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10hl5hhp1jgu163@corp.supernews.com...

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Up7Sc.1419$zx3.204@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

<snip>

I'm not responding to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.


Try e-mail, much more *private*, newsgroups are for *public* discussion,
posting in them is putting a sign up, decalring *everyone welcome*. I am
slow to respond to my e-mail, so be patient, and *please* don't bring me

a

fowl-mouth

You *****


You aren't very civil


Yes I am to those you(who)(?) are civil.

I respond in kind.

I haven't seen them using such linguistics

If they punt the ad hominem at me I take it back to
them.

So why the linguistics ?

My response here to William and David V is a carried over from other
threads.

Oh. So once they spoke to you nasty-like, they are not to be forgiven, even
if they stopped talking that way ?

Scott

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 07:54:47 PM
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:11:31 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message

I respond in kind.


I haven't seen them using such linguistics

If they punt the ad hominem at me I take it back to
them.


So why the linguistics ?

My response here to William and David V is a carried over from other
threads.


Oh. So once they spoke to you nasty-like, they are not to be forgiven, even
if they stopped talking that way ?

Ask him where I have said to him "***** you, idiot. stupid son of a
*****." or "You *****".
Hint, I never have. But he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. It gives him license to lie and bear false witness.
William
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 13 Aug 2004 08:00:49 AM
Oh welllllllllllllll
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411c101a.634309@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:11:31 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message

I respond in kind.


I haven't seen them using such linguistics

If they punt the ad hominem at me I take it back to
them.


So why the linguistics ?

My response here to William and David V is a carried over from other
threads.


Oh. So once they spoke to you nasty-like, they are not to be forgiven,

even

if they stopped talking that way ?


Ask him where I have said to him "***** you, idiot. stupid son of a
*****." or "You *****".

Hint, I never have. But he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. It gives him license to lie and bear false witness.

William

.




User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 05:24:51 PM
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:57:07 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message

***** you, idiot. stupid *****.


I see your mother forgot to wash your mouth out with soap

I'm not responding to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.


Try e-mail, much more *private*, newsgroups are for *public* discussion,
posting in them is putting a sign up, decalring *everyone welcome*. I am
slow to respond to my e-mail, so be patient, and *please* don't bring me a
fowl-mouth

You *****


You aren't very civil

He is a Catholic and believes in Moral Truth. It gives him license to
be as objectionable as he likes.
William
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 08:53:21 AM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411a9b82.18010503@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:57:07 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message

***** you, idiot. stupid *****.


I see your mother forgot to wash your mouth out with soap

I'm not responding to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.


Try e-mail, much more *private*, newsgroups are for *public* discussion,
posting in them is putting a sign up, decalring *everyone welcome*. I am
slow to respond to my e-mail, so be patient, and *please* don't bring me

a

fowl-mouth

You *****


You aren't very civil


He is a Catholic and believes in Moral Truth. It gives him license to
be as objectionable as he likes.

wrong.
.


User: "Rafeek"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 11:22:51 PM
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:57:07 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

*please* don't bring me a
fowl-mouth

Don't they call those beaks?
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 06:12:28 PM
Giggles :-) I meant *foul*
"Rafeek" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
news:c3slh095i2245vqked36p9qrv6a43ljmbp@4ax.com...

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:57:07 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:


*please* don't bring me a
fowl-mouth


Don't they call those beaks?

.



User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 01:26:09 PM
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:16:36 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:


"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very

good

understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding than
most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't

attack

the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've found
that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to moral
disagreements if their materialism is true.


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.


***** you, idiot. stupid *****. I'm not responding to this thread
any further than my reply to Glenn.

You *****

Thanks. That must be about the tenth time you have run away from the
question. And if you want a private discussion with Glenn then please
do so by e-mail. These .alt NGs are for open discussion. And you have
been asked the above question umpteen times. It always upsets you and
precipitates a pig ignorant evasion. I therefore, once again, conclude
that you cannot answer it. The reason, it would seem, is that whatever
points you make about how others make their moral choices can apply
equally well to how you make yours. In other words you continue to
make a completely irrelevant point.
William
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 04:53:05 PM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411910f8.13821569@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:16:36 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:4118d1d4.543940@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 20:02:43 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth. I also have a very

good

understanding of ethical philosophy and how it relates to a primes of
materialism. From debates, it appears I have a better understanding

than

most proclaimed materialists. I find it odd that more theists don't

attack

the materialistic atheist's arguments on his ethical position. I've

found

that the vast majority of atheists don't understand what happens to

moral

disagreements if their materialism is true.


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right or wrong is in
principle any different from how a materialist chooses what is morally
right or wrong.


***** you, idiot. stupid *****. I'm not responding to this

thread

any further than my reply to Glenn.
You *****


Thanks. That must be about the tenth time you have run away from the
question. And if you want a private discussion with Glenn then please
do so by e-mail. These .alt NGs are for open discussion.

Correct, but please Scott when you come to my e-mail, two things, one I am
slow to answer my e-mail, but I *will* respond, two, and please, yet again,
don't bring your colorful linguistics with you, or my response won't be
pleasing.

And you have been asked the above question umpteen times. It always upsets

you and

precipitates a pig ignorant evasion. I therefore, once again, conclude
that you cannot answer it. The reason, it would seem, is that whatever
points you make about how others make their moral choices can apply
equally well to how you make yours. In other words you continue to
make a completely irrelevant point.

William

Glenn (Christian Mystic)
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 05:39:07 PM
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:53:05 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

***** you, idiot. stupid *****. I'm not responding
to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.
You *****


Thanks. That must be about the tenth time you have run away from the
question. And if you want a private discussion with Glenn then please
do so by e-mail. These .alt NGs are for open discussion.


Correct, but please Scott when you come to my e-mail, two things, one I am
slow to answer my e-mail, but I *will* respond, two, and please, yet again,
don't bring your colorful linguistics with you, or my response won't be
pleasing.

In that case you'll have to agree with all his one-sided lectures (he
cannot debate) and never dare to point out his obvious
inconsistencies. And if, when he has told you how inferior your moral
base is, you dare ask him where he gets his morality from you'll get a
mouthful of invective and be told to **** off and **** your *** up
your ***** **.
William
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 07:48:34 PM
Whatever
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411a9c5c.18228274@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:53:05 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian Mystic\)"
<christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

***** you, idiot. stupid *****. I'm not responding
to this thread any further than my reply to Glenn.
You *****


Thanks. That must be about the tenth time you have run away from the
question. And if you want a private discussion with Glenn then please
do so by e-mail. These .alt NGs are for open discussion.


Correct, but please Scott when you come to my e-mail, two things, one I

am

slow to answer my e-mail, but I *will* respond, two, and please, yet

again,

don't bring your colorful linguistics with you, or my response won't be
pleasing.


In that case you'll have to agree with all his one-sided lectures (he
cannot debate) and never dare to point out his obvious
inconsistencies. And if, when he has told you how inferior your moral
base is, you dare ask him where he gets his morality from you'll get a
mouthful of invective and be told to **** off and **** your *** up
your ***** **.

William

.





User: "David V."

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 10:34:37 AM
William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.

He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 12:14:57 PM
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FaidnXxDcMWTdoXcRVn-uA@sti.net...

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.

Oh look another idiot
.

User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 01:48:54 PM
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:34:37 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.

Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching on
natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that it
is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.
William
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 03:22:36 PM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411917af.15540934@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:34:37 -0700, "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching on
natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that it
is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.

You are clueless
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 10 Aug 2004 05:25:51 PM
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:22:36 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching on
natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that it
is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.


You are clueless

In other words, with all your blather and lecturing and childish
tantrums you have nothing to say about how others decide what is right
and wrong that doesn't ultimately apply equally well to yourself.
Let's see you now continue blustering on about the inadequate moral
position of others.
William
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 08:51:42 AM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411947d3.2778168@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:22:36 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally right
or wrong is in principle any different from how a
materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of rules
dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his religion, his
god, tells him what is moral and what isn't. The
interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)" comes from an old
guy that thinks he has a direct line to their god. What he
fails to realize is that his gods do not exist therefore all
his "Moral Truth(s)" are entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching on
natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that it
is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.


You are clueless


In other words, with all your blather and lecturing and childish
tantrums you have nothing to say about how others decide what is right
and wrong that doesn't ultimately apply equally well to yourself.

Let's see you now continue blustering on about the inadequate moral
position of others.

This from the guy who blathered a naturalistic fallacy that he was born with
a natural moral code. You are clueless.
Scott
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 12:50:45 PM
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:51:42 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching on
natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that it
is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.


You are clueless


In other words, with all your blather and lecturing and childish
tantrums you have nothing to say about how others decide what is right
and wrong that doesn't ultimately apply equally well to yourself.

Let's see you now continue blustering on about the inadequate moral
position of others.


This from the guy who blathered a naturalistic fallacy that he was born with
a natural moral code. You are clueless.

The Catholic Church teaches the "The natural moral law, inscribed upon
the very nature of human beings".
Why do you not accept the core teachings of the church you claim to be
a member of?
Why do you resolutely refuse to answer the question of how your choice
of what is morally right or wrong is in principle any different from
how a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong?
Why do you continue with your silly arguments when you cannot even
answer key questions raised by them?
Why is it that when you lose your argument you always resort to
name-calling?
I, and others, have drawn the obvious conclusion.
William
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 12:59:12 PM
"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote in message
news:411a5989.1119310@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:51:42 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in 'Moral
Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he had any moral
position during his exchanges with me - particularly while he was
making pretty pig ignorant comments about my basis for morality. He
even contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic teaching

on

natural morality.
Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into silly
tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant. We now know that

it

is relevant and the reason for his evasion is becoming rather clear.


You are clueless


In other words, with all your blather and lecturing and childish
tantrums you have nothing to say about how others decide what is right
and wrong that doesn't ultimately apply equally well to yourself.

Let's see you now continue blustering on about the inadequate moral
position of others.


This from the guy who blathered a naturalistic fallacy that he was born

with

a natural moral code. You are clueless.


The Catholic Church teaches the "The natural moral law, inscribed upon
the very nature of human beings".

Why do you not accept the core teachings of the church you claim to be
a member of?

Why do you resolutely refuse to answer the question of how your choice
of what is morally right or wrong is in principle any different from
how a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong?

Why do you continue with your silly arguments when you cannot even
answer key questions raised by them?

Why is it that when you lose your argument you always resort to
name-calling?

I, and others, have drawn the obvious conclusion.

You are clueless. Since you don't know what the debate is about, you try to
construct your own stawman
.
User: "William"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 02:05:51 PM
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:59:12 GMT, "Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

"William" <telige@mail.clara.fl.com> wrote

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

This from the guy who blathered a naturalistic fallacy that
he was born with a natural moral code. You are clueless.


The Catholic Church teaches the "The natural moral law, inscribed upon
the very nature of human beings".

Why do you not accept the core teachings of the church you claim to be
a member of?

Why do you resolutely refuse to answer the question of how your choice
of what is morally right or wrong is in principle any different from
how a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong?

Why do you continue with your silly arguments when you cannot even
answer key questions raised by them?

Why is it that when you lose your argument you always resort to
name-calling?

I, and others, have drawn the obvious conclusion.


You are clueless. Since you don't know what the debate is about, you try to
construct your own stawman

I know exactly what the debate is about. And the same questions apply.
And your inability to answer them has been noted once again.
William
.






User: "David V."

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 01:25:28 AM
William wrote:

"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral
Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally
right or wrong is in principle any different from how
a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of
rules dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his
religion, his god, tells him what is moral and what
isn't. The interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)"
comes from an old guy that thinks he has a direct line
to their god. What he fails to realize is that his gods
do not exist therefore all his "Moral Truth(s)" are
entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in
'Moral Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he
had any moral position during his exchanges with me -
particularly while he was making pretty pig ignorant
comments about my basis for morality. He even
contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic
teaching on natural morality.

His basic argument, on any topic, is that you are wrong and
he is right. In glancing through his hilarious posts I have
yet to see a logical, coherent, thought come from the guy.

Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into
silly tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant.
We now know that it is relevant and the reason for his
evasion is becoming rather clear.

Yes, he's sick. The argument is irrelevant. He just wants
attention. By evading, acting stupid, and such he has a
ready and willing audience. He needs help.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 01:37:31 PM
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jY2dnQHzkphHJoTcRVn-pg@sti.net...

William wrote:

"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral
Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally
right or wrong is in principle any different from how
a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of
rules dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his
religion, his god, tells him what is moral and what
isn't. The interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)"
comes from an old guy that thinks he has a direct line
to their god. What he fails to realize is that his gods
do not exist therefore all his "Moral Truth(s)" are
entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in
'Moral Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he
had any moral position during his exchanges with me -
particularly while he was making pretty pig ignorant
comments about my basis for morality. He even
contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic
teaching on natural morality.


His basic argument, on any topic, is that you are wrong and
he is right. In glancing through his hilarious posts I have
yet to see a logical, coherent, thought come from the guy.

Which only goes to show how dumb you are.
In fact both myself and Icarus, an a.a. regular atheist, are presently
arguing against two other atheist, Evil Ed (aka Chris Baba) and Goddeloos
(aka Jeff Candy, PHD physics), against their belief in objective morality.
Both Icarus and I are saying there is no objective morality compatible with
materialism. IOW *if* materialism as a primes for reality is true all of
morality is Relativism/Subjectivism, Anti-Realism.


Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into
silly tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant.
We now know that it is relevant and the reason for his
evasion is becoming rather clear.


Yes, he's sick. The argument is irrelevant. He just wants
attention. By evading, acting stupid, and such he has a
ready and willing audience. He needs help.

You screw llamas on a 5 acre ranch. You need help.
Scott
.

User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 11 Aug 2004 04:58:46 PM
Ahhh, and I just invited him to e-mail me,,,, sigh
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jY2dnQHzkphHJoTcRVn-pg@sti.net...

William wrote:

"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

William wrote:

"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote:

First off, I'm Catholic and believe in Moral
Truth.....


Please explain how your choice of what is morally
right or wrong is in principle any different from how
a materialist chooses what is morally right or wrong.


He can't because he has no morals, he has a set of
rules dictated to him. His "Moral Truth" is what his
religion, his god, tells him what is moral and what
isn't. The interpretation of those "Moral Truth(s)"
comes from an old guy that thinks he has a direct line
to their god. What he fails to realize is that his gods
do not exist therefore all his "Moral Truth(s)" are
entirely an invention of humans.


Its odd that he now says he is a Catholic and believes in
'Moral Truth'. He was extremely reticent to admit that he
had any moral position during his exchanges with me -
particularly while he was making pretty pig ignorant
comments about my basis for morality. He even
contradicted (or probably didn't know) basic Catholic
teaching on natural morality.


His basic argument, on any topic, is that you are wrong and
he is right. In glancing through his hilarious posts I have
yet to see a logical, coherent, thought come from the guy.

Whenever he was asked what his position was he went into
silly tantrums and tried to pretend it wasn't relevant.
We now know that it is relevant and the reason for his
evasion is becoming rather clear.


Yes, he's sick. The argument is irrelevant. He just wants
attention. By evading, acting stupid, and such he has a
ready and willing audience. He needs help.
--
David V.

UDP for WebTV

.
User: "Scott"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 08:54:42 AM
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10hl5kl9tv9q71e@corp.supernews.com...

Ahhh, and I just invited him to e-mail me,,,, sigh

I don't do e-mail
Scott
.
User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic"

Title: Re: There is NO Consistency in Morals--NO "Objective Right From Wrong" 12 Aug 2004 06:05:02 PM
"Scott" <scott@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:CEKSc.5428$l_7.4602@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...

"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:10hl5kl9tv9q71e@corp.supernews.com...

Ahhh, and I just invited him to e-mail me,,,, sigh


I don't do e-mail
Scott

I guess we won't have our private conversation then
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
.









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