On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:08:29 GMT, "John P. Boatwright"
<name@For-God.net> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:12:53 GMT, "John P. Boatwright"
<name@For-God.net> spake thusly:

Pastor Dave wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:26:44 -0600,

Trinity anti-Christian doctrine to keep Jews from becoming
Christians.

Oh, so we should just change whatever makes a Jew
uncomfortable. Okay, now I get it. I guess the Apostles
(who were Jewish by the way) weren't Christians, because
they said to Jews...

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed
and hanged on a tree." - Acts 5:30

Actually that was said to the high priest.

It was the council. The high priest was the one who
spoke. And in case you're not aware, they were Jews.

You just admitted that they were telling the high preist.

Fine.

I'm glad you have come to your senses and now don't
claim they were telling the Jews as a whole.

The high priest said, "Did not *WE* straitly command
you...". "WE", not "I".

The council agreed to have Jesus executed.

As for the rest of the Jews...

Acts 2:22-23

22) YE MEN OF ISRAEL, hear these words; Jesus
of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you
by miracles and wonders and signs, which God
did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves
also know:
23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel
and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by
wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Have you actually read the Bible, son?

Have you?

See the last line... wicked hands had him crucified
and slain... the high priests... Jesus was delivered
into the hands of sinful men, the angels said so.

You can't lump all Jews together in that the 12
apostles were also Jews, as was Jesus himself.

Your claim is bunk, Dave.

First of all, I never said, "all Jews". You are
dishonestly twisting what I said, because what I said
does not suit your smear campaign and it doesn't suit
your doctrine. So when someone says something that you
can't argue against, you decide to twist it into
something that you WISH they said and then attack them,
based on your WISHFUL word twisting of what they
actually did say! That is dishonest, to say the least!

The fact is, I said nothing different than what Peter
said. He said, "YE MEN OF ISRAEL", not, "Hey,
Roman army! I'm talking to you!".

It is obvious that you refuse to acknowledge the truth!
It says, "being delivered by determinate COUNSEL"!

It says, "*YE* have taken...". That is a plural. When
it is singular, it is "thee", or "thou". The word "ye"
represents the third person plural in the KJV.

THEY made it happen and used Roman law to get it done!

As for the Jews, God said through the apostles, that
they are forgiven without need of repentance, and as
for that matter, Jesus forgave them as it happened.

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Apostles preached
that.

LIAR.

You call me a liar and yet, do not provide one verse
that says what you claimed.

You're an anti-semite, Dave, admit it.

You hate Jews, don't you Dave... admit it.

This is where you try to smear me and call me an
anti-Semite, because what I said does not suit you and
so, you make up an attack on me, to try to have others
think I hate Jews, so that they will also gang up on
me. You are like the little trouble maker in the
street, who falsely accuses someone, because they
couldn't disprove what they said and wants to get them
beat up by a crowd of people that you will inflame.

You are no different than those who sought to do the
same to Jesus, when they couldn't dispute what He said.

Now realize, Jesus was a Jew... now what?

What are you going to do when Jesus asks why
you hated his kinsmen, when he forgave them?

See above. You hate me because you cannot dispute
what I have said.

This is why I told you to stop emailing me. Because
you act like an idiot.

What did the King do to the debtor that didn't
forgive the ones that owed the debtor money after
the King forgave the debtor of all his debts?

Jesus said the debtor was tossed into prison,
'cuz he couldn't forgive others when the King
had forgiven him.

And that was a lesson for us to forgive other humans,
because we have been forgiven. Now where did I say
that I hate the Jews? I haven't. You simply hate me,
because I don't buy into your false doctrine which you
use to try to kiss up to the Jews. Well guess what?
They don't like you, nor do they like Jesus. And guess
what else? I don't hold any grudge against the Jews,
so your smear campaign is a bust.

You are just like the idiots who criticized the movie,
"The Passion", claiming that it was anti-Semitic.

Newsflash: Stating history is not anti-Semitic.

Do you also tell the Jews not to bring up the Holocaust
because to do so, is "anti-Germite"? <chuckle>

You think your man made philosophy substitutes
for Scripture! Show me ONE PASSAGE in which
the Bible says that Jews are forgiven without need
for repentance! You didn't do that, because YOU CAN'T!
And you were wrong about your Romans quote below,
as I will demonstrate below.

And if that were true, Jesus wouldn't have
bothered calling 12 Jews in the first place, nor would
any of them, especially Paul, given up their lifestyles
to preach the Gospel, which they preached to Jews
almost exclusively for the first 3 1/2 years (first
half of the last week of Daniel).

Uhm... Dave... Paul said it:

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be
ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise
in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take
away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for
your sakes: but as touching the election, they are
beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without
repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet
have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that
through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that
he might have mercy upon all.

Says it right there, Dave.

Mercy on all, yet the Jews don't believe... and are forgiven.

A gift from God... it says it right there.

Where does it say that? I do not see one passage that
says that Jews who do not believe are going to go to
Heaven, even though they reject Jesus.

First of all, you are reading v29 wrong. It does not
say that God saves us without us repenting. It says
that God gives the gifts and calling, without repenting
of doing that. It is speaking of Him not changing His
mind about it, which is what repentance is. To turn
in the other direction.

It says that God gives the gifts and the calling and
that God does not repent of doing that. You are
applying the repentance to humans. It applies to
God in that passage. Not as repenting of sin, but
merely to state that He did not and would not change
His mind about it.

"But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith,
I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no
people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."
- Romans 10:19

It says clearly that God used the Gentiles to bring the
Jews in through jealousy. To bring them to repentance.
The Gentiles obtained mercy through the unbelief of the
Jews. Paul is talking about the Jews being brought in
by the belief of the Gentiles.

You should have also backed up and read the following,
which explains it further...

Romans 9:31-32

31) But Israel, which followed after the law of
righteousness, hath not attained to the law of
righteousness.
32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith,
but as it were by the works of the law. For they
stumbled at that stumblingstone;

You also did not read the first part. It says that the
Jews have BLINDNESS. And that they have blindness
UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles was brought in.

Now if they have blindness UNTIL, that means that
a point comes in which they don't have BLINDNESS
any more. And to be rid of the blindness means to
see. To see what? That Christ is King.

It also says that they were ENEMIES. How do ENEMIES
of God go to Heaven?

And even in the same chapter that you quoted from,
which shows about their blindness at that point and
that they could be brought to the truth...

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?
God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is
come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to
jealousy." - Romans 11:11

Jews are NOT saved WITHOUT Christ! God used
the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy, so that
they could be saved, BY CHRIST!

You are reading a lot more into that, than it actually
says and you are ignoring what you don't want to see!

You also have not answered the questions. Why did
Jesus pick Jews, if they have no need of repentance?

Why did John baptize unto repentance, if there is
no need of it for the Jews?

Matthew 3:1-2

1) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in
the wilderness of Judea,
2) And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven
is at hand.

According to you, John was wrong.

And most importantly, why did Jesus begin His
preaching to the Jews, with the following command?

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17

Why did He say that TO JEWS, if there is no need
for Jews to repent?

According to you, Jesus was wrong.

Jesus was a Jew, his own kinsmen, are his kinsmen.

Being a Jew is no guarantee of being of Israel.

Dave, if Jew doesn't recognize their messiah, that is
between them and God. It is not my concern.

It isn't? Then why did Jesus say the following?

Matthew 28:19-20

19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever
I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Did He say, "Everyone except the Jews"?

According to you, Jesus taught them an error and
contradicted Himself.

When God wants the Jews as a whole, to recognize the
messiah, I will welcome that day, as will they, but
until then, that's up to God when that will happen.

Jesus forgave, and as was said in the above verses,
it's a gift from God, without need of repentence. Part
of the gift, Jesus being the messiah that can save, is
that God had already told them, prior prophecies, and
that telling, also saves in that Jesus fulfilled those
prophecies... a gift from God... that saves.

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
- Romans 9:6b

Of course.

Then if the Scripture says that ISRAEL will be saved
and being born a Jew does not automatically mean that
you are part of the Israel of God, then how can all
Jews be saved, simply because they are born Jews,
considering that ONLY the Israel of God will be saved?

Galatians 6:15-16

15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth
any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace
be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The "Israel of God" is the saved saints, whether they
be Jew, or Gentile. Circumcision "avails nothing".

Your point at the start was that he was talking to all
Jews, when he was addressing the high priest.

You were wrong, Dave, admit it.

No, I was not wrong, because I did not say that!
I never said, "Every Jew on the planet"!

You claimed that this was only said to the high priest.
You are wrong! It was said not only to the high
priest, but the entire counsel and to the people in
general! You seem to forget that there were not too
many Jews who were saved at the time that Peter said
what he did, in Acts 2! You also seem to forget that a
crowd of Jews cried out for Jesus' crucifixion before
Pilate! It also shows that it was not just the high
priest who stirred them up either! He was spit on,
struck, etc.. You are trying to get me to believe that
the ONLY person guilty here, is the high priest and
that is RIDICULOUS!!!

ALL JEWS who were involved, were guilty.

ALL JEWS who do not believe in Him, will perish
without Him.

And ALL PEOPLE who were involved, whether Jew
or Gentile, are guilty.

And ALL PEOPLE who do not believe in Him,
will perish without Him.

Jesus was not sent to destroy his kinsmen, he was
sent to save, he's the messiah... they didn't know,
the high priests should have recognized him... but
they were too concerned about their own position
rather than finding the truth and doing what's right.

Like I said... Have you actually read the Bible?

You're the one that didn't know Paul said the Jews
did not need to repent of Jesus's death... as they
didn't know, and it was a gift from God, which saved
both those that did know of the gift and those that
didn't... as Paul said above:

Paul never said that Jews don't need to repent!
That is a blasphemous lie!

You are also lying in trying to narrow it down to
Jesus' death! I said that they need to repent, period!
Just as ALL PEOPLE need to repent!

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that
he might have mercy upon all.

Where does that say that all Jews are saved without
Christ? Oh, that's right... it doesn't!

This is why people make fun of you. You don't seem to
know the first thing about the Bible and yet, preach to
people as if they need to learn from your preaching.

Why don't you tell me why you insist God should damn
someone, or an entire group, such as the Jews as a whole,
when he's openly stated that they didn't know, but that
by their not knowing... others could be saved too.

And there you go, LYING AGAIN! Where did I say,
"God will damn the Jews as a whole"???

You are a pathetic little liar, who seeks to smear
people and twist their words, so that you can falsely
accuse them!

Why don't you explain that Dave... my recollection is
that Paul is not agreeing with you... looking at
the verses above... yep... he's not agreeing Dave.

I see? You smear me and twist my words and I'm
supposed to explain something that I NEVER SAID?!

By their unbelief... all can be saved.

It does not say that every Jew on Earth will be saved.

1) Can be does not equal will be. It means that all
will have the opportunity and they have had it.

2) You need to investigate how the word "all" is used
in the Scriptures. The context is important.

Because if they'd believed... Jesus would not have
died for sins... voiding the sacrifice, which paid
for the sins.

By your logic, no one needs to believe in Him.
If His dying on the cross is all that is required
for an individual to go to Heaven, which is what
you've been arguing, then none of us need to
even read the Bible.

The Jews do not pay a penalty, for others being forgiven,
it's a gift from God, such that all can be saved.

No one said that they pay a penalty. However, the
Scripture does say that they were put into blindness
at that point.

The fact is that the Bible does not teach that every
Jew will be saved. Jews have died and continue to
die without Christ and they are not saved.

You do not have a grasp even on the simplest of
Biblical concepts and you are not a teacher. You
need to stop thinking that you can teach people
and start learning something.

You were wrong in everything that you said here and you
resorted to word twisting and evil tactics, trying to
accuse me falsely and smear me. You are either very
evil, or in need of psychological help, probably
including drug therapy.

--

Pastor Dave

Remove the "123" and "321"
from email to email me.