On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:44:03 +1300, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, # <911@numbers.for.you> pontificated:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:39:49 GMT, Pastor R.D. Weekly wrote:
We are saying the same thing. Pardon the wording
issues. However, I do have one problem. If it has
been fulfilled, meaning it has passed away, as
Scripture teaches, then we must look at Jesus'
statement...
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled." - Matthew 5:18
Either "heaven and earth has passed" and "all is
fulfilled", or we are still under the Law.
Good point, but I think you're interpreting that passage incorrectly. It's
amazing to me that there are actually Christians who think that we're still
under the Law. What in the world did the blood of Jesus accomplish?
It would appear that the phrase "until heaven and earth disappear" is
somewhat of a sticking point.
Well, I don't think it means to disappear, but since he
does, okay. :) I was simply showing the logical
problem he ends with, if he says we're not under the
Law and also believes that heaven and earth have not
passed.
Taking a logical approach to this, we have a few options available to us.
Assuming that heaven and earth have not yet disappeared (meaning that the
Law is still in place), we have two options, either;
We are required to fully obey all commands that make up the Law, or;
We accept in faith that Christs' sacrifice provides ongoing atonement for
and cleansing of our sins according to the mercy and grace of God and that
he will in time put us right with him, and that by following the commands
Jesus gave us that we will in doing so fulfill the requirements of the Law,
and with the help of the Holy Spirit working in our lives that we will be
led into all righteousness, repenting of wrongdoing, and bear fruit in
keeping with his holy and pure nature. (This would be compatible with the
"not under Law", but "led by the Spirit" concept)
Then you have two problems.
1) "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation
through faith in his blood, to declare his
righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST,
through the forbearance of God;" - Romans 3:25
2) Jesus said that "not one jot nor tittle" of the Law
would pass until all be fulfilled. That means not one
stroke, nor one dot. That means that the WHOLE Law
would still be in effect.
Again, either we are still under the WHOLE Law, or
heaven and earth passed.
Alternatively, assuming that heaven and earth has disappeared (in which
case the Law would no longer be in effect), we would need to take a fresh
look at our interpretation of certain scriptures such as Revelation. In
doing so, it would be worthwhile reading through Hebrews 9:14-22 with
regard to matters arising from a new covenant.
Revelation 21-22 would probably need to be viewed from the following
perspective, unless there are other theories regarding how and when heaven
and earth have disappeared.
It would behoove the end timers to look at the phrase
as symbolism, rather than a literal event. For
example, let us look at the following passage from the
writer of Hebrews...
Hebrews 12:27-28
27) And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the
removing of those things that are shaken, as of things
that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken
may remain.
28) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be
moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God
acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Now obviously, this is not a literal shaking of the
planet, since the writer is referencing the New
Covenant. He is simply saying that the Old has passed
away (spiritually and about to physically, with the
destruction of the temple) and that the New, which
"cannot be shaken" remains. Note, "WE receive a
kingdom which cannot be shaken". He is not writing to
someone thousands of years in the future, but rather,
to people alive in the 1st century. Thus, any Jew
would recognize the term, "heaven and earth pass" as
being symbolic of the end of an age.
"And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the
disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when
will these things be? And, What is the sign of Your
coming and of the end of the age?" - Matthew 24:3
While some versions have the word "world" there, that
is actually a bad translation. In the Greek, the word
for the planet is "kosmos" and that is not the word
used there. The Greek word used there is "aion", which
means, "an age". Thus, the disciples were asking about
the end of the age and what the sign for the end of the
age would be.
We must note what Jesus said to them, that prompted
their questions.
Matthew 24:1-2
1) And going out, Jesus left the temple. And His
disciples came to show Him the buildings of the temple.
What did the disciples come to show Him? The buildings
of the temple, not the whole world. :)
2) But Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these
things? Truly I say to you, There will not at all be
left one stone on a stone which in no way will not be
thrown down.
Note, do you not see all THESE THINGS? What things?
The temple, etc..
There will not be one stone left upon another. When
the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the Romans burned it
down and then, afterward, they pulled each and every
stone apart, to retrieve the gold that had melted and
ran between the stones. Thus, Jesus' words were
fulfilled to the letter.
Matthew 24:16,20-21
16) then let those in Judea flee into the mountains;"
Why did He only tell those in Judaea to flee before
this destruction, if it is a world wide event?
An interesting side note, is that as the Roman army
tried to defeat Jerusalem (which was no easy task,
since they were a fortress unto themselves) the death
of Nero occurred and the Roman army withdrew for a
short time, this allowing the believing Jews to flee
(not that it was the intent of the Roman army for them
to flee). Once that was straightened out, the resumed
their barrage against Jerusalem and eventually, as we
all know, took it.
20) And pray that your flight will not occur in winter
nor in a sabbath.
Why did He say to pray it wouldn't be on the Sabbath?
because Jews could only walk about 3/4 of a mile on the
Sabbath and they wouldn't have been able to get out of
the way of the destruction.
21) For there will be great affliction, such as has not
happened from the beginning of the world until now, no,
nor ever will be.
Contrary to what people claim, when they try to apply
this to a world wide event, where would this really
take place? Jesus already told us. In Judaea, in
Jerusalem.
The fact is, the horrors that went on during this event
(which included the tribulation, as this was not a one
day event) have not been paralleled.
A new heaven and a new earth
Revelation 21:1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first
heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any
sea.
I'm glad you mentioned Revelation and the New
Jerusalem, because that creates a problem for the end
timers. :)
Here is the interesting thing about this. The end
timers claim that it will be a literal new heaven and a
new Earth, which means that the old heaven and old
earth were literally destroyed, which means that all of
those who were not saved are destroyed (remember, we
are in the last chapter of Revelation in my quote of
Scripture below) and that then the New Jerusalem will
come down and that their will be world peace, since
obviously, only believers will be there. But does that
idea hold up to Scripture? No. If they're beliefs
were true and the evil people are no more, then how
come evil still exists when this New Jerusalem does?
Revelation 22:14-15
14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that
they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter
in through the gates into the city.
15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and
whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and
whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
How could there be evil people outside the city, if
they have been destroyed already?
No, it is NOT a literal city and no, heaven and earth
are NOT literally destroyed.
The holy city represents the Kingdom of God.
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the
book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out
of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from
the things which are written in this book."
- Revelation 22:19
And the Kingdom of God is not something that will be
physically visible, as the end timers claim. They make
the same mistake the Pharisees did...
Luke 17:20-21
20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Note that the Pharisees wanted to know when the Kingdom
of God would come to the Earth.
Now what was Jesus' response???
"The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION".
I.e., YOU WON'T SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES! :)
21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
They WON'T say, "look here, or look there"!
The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU. It is NOT a new
literal, physical kingdom set up after the destruction
of heaven and earth.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
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