| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
22 Jun 2003 10:22:22 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:t21Ja.2411$mS2.1198@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:27:29 GMT, wrote:
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
Moses saw God's glory, not the person of God. No man can see God &
live, (Ex.33:20) So, if Moses had seen God he would have died.
I'm sorry, but I don't see "glory" anywhere in "thou shalt see my back
parts." Also god said "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no
man
see me, and live" and nowhere does that mention "see my glory." Try
again.
Sorry, what version of the Bible are you using?
Take your pick, none say "see my glory" in Ex 33:23. Maybe god's backside
isn't as glorious as his front side. Maybe he's hung like a mule but has a
huge pimple on his *****?
Exodus 33:23 :: New International Version (NIV)
<snip>
Did you happen to notice verse 22? It says "while my glory passeth by", if
you are seeing "the back parts" of God, and he says what is passing by is
"my glory" then what do you think it is referring to in verse 23 when it
says "thou shalt see my back parts"? Is it talking about a physical beings
back parts (or face) or is it talking about the fullness of the glory of god
compared to only a part of His glory? If you read it in context you will see
the glory...
Ok, let's break things down some here:
Exodus 33
18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you,
and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy
on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me
and live."
It says "no-one may see me and live" Says nothing about his glory or
anything else, it just says "see me"
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a
rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and
cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand
and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
And here it says that Moses DID see him in some way ("you will see my
back.") If you're referring to some etherial thing like "glory" there is no
'front' or 'back'. Also how can something like 'glory' have hands? God
supposedly covered Moses with his hand, thus showing that he had a physical
body. The ONLY way around this is either that it's all made up or try the
"it's not literal" approach. But there's nothing that indicates it to be
figurative. It uses words like "face", "hand" and "back" in very literal
ways.
--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
23 Jun 2003 10:23:23 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:OQjJa.13929$bH3.10380@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:t21Ja.2411$mS2.1198@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:27:29 GMT, wrote:
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
Moses saw God's glory, not the person of God. No man can see God &
live, (Ex.33:20) So, if Moses had seen God he would have died.
I'm sorry, but I don't see "glory" anywhere in "thou shalt see my
back
parts." Also god said "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no
man
see me, and live" and nowhere does that mention "see my glory." Try
again.
Sorry, what version of the Bible are you using?
Take your pick, none say "see my glory" in Ex 33:23. Maybe god's
backside
isn't as glorious as his front side. Maybe he's hung like a mule but
has a
huge pimple on his *****?
Exodus 33:23 :: New International Version (NIV)
<snip>
Did you happen to notice verse 22? It says "while my glory passeth by",
if
you are seeing "the back parts" of God, and he says what is passing by
is
"my glory" then what do you think it is referring to in verse 23 when it
says "thou shalt see my back parts"? Is it talking about a physical
beings
back parts (or face) or is it talking about the fullness of the glory of
god
compared to only a part of His glory? If you read it in context you will
see
the glory...
Ok, let's break things down some here:
Exodus 33
18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of
you,
and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have
mercy
on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see
me
and live."
It says "no-one may see me and live" Says nothing about his glory or
anything else, it just says "see me"
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a
rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock
and
cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my
hand
and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
And here it says that Moses DID see him in some way ("you will see my
back.") If you're referring to some etherial thing like "glory" there is
no
'front' or 'back'. Also how can something like 'glory' have hands? God
supposedly covered Moses with his hand, thus showing that he had a
physical
body. The ONLY way around this is either that it's all made up or try the
"it's not literal" approach. But there's nothing that indicates it to be
figurative. It uses words like "face", "hand" and "back" in very literal
ways.
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship Him must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself in any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you really
think these things through?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
.
|
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|
| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
25 Jun 2003 01:01:55 AM |
|
|
<> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:OQjJa.13929$bH3.10380@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:t21Ja.2411$mS2.1198@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:27:29 GMT, wrote:
In talk.atheism MikeH <nospam@here.com> wrote:
Moses saw God's glory, not the person of God. No man can see God
&
live, (Ex.33:20) So, if Moses had seen God he would have died.
I'm sorry, but I don't see "glory" anywhere in "thou shalt see my
back
parts." Also god said "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall
no
man
see me, and live" and nowhere does that mention "see my glory."
Try
again.
Sorry, what version of the Bible are you using?
Take your pick, none say "see my glory" in Ex 33:23. Maybe god's
backside
isn't as glorious as his front side. Maybe he's hung like a mule but
has a
huge pimple on his *****?
Exodus 33:23 :: New International Version (NIV)
<snip>
Did you happen to notice verse 22? It says "while my glory passeth
by",
if
you are seeing "the back parts" of God, and he says what is passing
by
is
"my glory" then what do you think it is referring to in verse 23 when
it
says "thou shalt see my back parts"? Is it talking about a physical
beings
back parts (or face) or is it talking about the fullness of the glory
of
god
compared to only a part of His glory? If you read it in context you
will
see
the glory...
Ok, let's break things down some here:
Exodus 33
18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of
you,
and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have
mercy
on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will
have
compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may
see
me
and live."
It says "no-one may see me and live" Says nothing about his glory or
anything else, it just says "see me"
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on
a
rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock
and
cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my
hand
and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."
And here it says that Moses DID see him in some way ("you will see my
back.") If you're referring to some etherial thing like "glory" there
is
no
'front' or 'back'. Also how can something like 'glory' have hands? God
supposedly covered Moses with his hand, thus showing that he had a
physical
body. The ONLY way around this is either that it's all made up or try
the
"it's not literal" approach. But there's nothing that indicates it to
be
figurative. It uses words like "face", "hand" and "back" in very
literal
ways.
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you
really
think these things through?
If you look into the night sky, you are looking into infinity, or as close
to infinity as your mind can imagine, you are actually looking at (though
certainly not seeing) the very birth of our universe. If you let your mind
dwell on the awesome vastness of the universe, and the relative position you
have to it all, you began to realize how infitesmal you are in comparison.
Perhaps you've thought about this, perhaps not. But, you really cannot
conceive this totally. You can conceive a part of this, but your mind really
cannot wrap itself around the total reality of how BIG the universe is. In a
like manner, if we were to "see" the fullness of God, if our minds were able
to wrap themselves around HIM, we would not be able to behold it or to hold
it in our minds, we would die... when it speaks of face, hand and back, it
is talking about the fullness of God (the face), God shielding Moses from
the fullness of himself (the hand), and showing Moses a part of His total
glory (the back), at leas this is how I understand this, coupled with how I
understand Him...
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|
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
25 Jun 2003 07:28:20 PM |
|
|
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you
really
think these things through?
It is true, we cannot see God. That is why God came in the flesh. Though
we cannot see God, we CAN see God incarnate, i.e. our Lord Jesus Christ.
Simple isn't it? Case solved!!!!!!
--
Pastor Frank
GOD
Jesus in Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the
words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
28 Jun 2003 10:28:08 PM |
|
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In talk.atheism Pastor Frank <pf@christfirst.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you
really
think these things through?
It is true, we cannot see God. That is why God came in the flesh. Though
we cannot see God, we CAN see God incarnate, i.e. our Lord Jesus Christ.
Simple isn't it? Case solved!!!!!!
Maybe it's simple when you have a simple mind. Now how about trying to
answer the question that was actually asked.
--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
.
|
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| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 02:07:12 PM |
|
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<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:c1tLa.1845$gu6.946@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism Pastor Frank <pf@christfirst.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship
Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself
in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you
really
think these things through?
It is true, we cannot see God. That is why God came in the flesh.
Though
we cannot see God, we CAN see God incarnate, i.e. our Lord Jesus Christ.
Simple isn't it? Case solved!!!!!!
Maybe it's simple when you have a simple mind. Now how about trying to
answer the question that was actually asked.
The question was directed toward me and already answered. Frank is just
putting the period on it, so to speak, by showing how this relates to Our
Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 03:41:04 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:c1tLa.1845$gu6.946@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism Pastor Frank <pf@christfirst.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship
Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest Himself
in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do you
really
think these things through?
It is true, we cannot see God. That is why God came in the flesh.
Though
we cannot see God, we CAN see God incarnate, i.e. our Lord Jesus Christ.
Simple isn't it? Case solved!!!!!!
Maybe it's simple when you have a simple mind. Now how about trying to
answer the question that was actually asked.
The question was directed toward me and already answered.
I agree that you answered it. Not that I agree the answer was right but I'm
not gonna argue that point any further.
Frank is just
putting the period on it, so to speak, by showing how this relates to Our
Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
No, Pester Funk did nothing of the sort since he ignored the actual question
(which was, basically, "If we can't see god and live, how did Moses see his
backside?") PF addressed no part of that question but, as usual, went on
some wild tangent.
--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 05:17:08 PM |
|
|
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:A9ILa.33$fg.12@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:c1tLa.1845$gu6.946@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism Pastor Frank <pf@christfirst.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:LuPJa.2639$XR4.2085@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
It IS figurative, not literal. God is Spirit and those who worship
Him
must
worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. God is not a man, and he does
NOT
exist
in the physical form (though, to be sure, he could manifest
Himself
in
any
form he wished).
If it's so figurative and god has no form, then how could Moses see
ANYTHING? But if god DID manifest himself in human form, then Moses
DID
see
him and that contradicted the "none shall see me and live" part. Do
you
really
think these things through?
It is true, we cannot see God. That is why God came in the flesh.
Though
we cannot see God, we CAN see God incarnate, i.e. our Lord Jesus
Christ.
Simple isn't it? Case solved!!!!!!
Maybe it's simple when you have a simple mind. Now how about trying to
answer the question that was actually asked.
The question was directed toward me and already answered.
I agree that you answered it. Not that I agree the answer was right but
I'm
not gonna argue that point any further.
I would appreciate it if we could discuss the point further, without arguing
about anything. Either what I say makes sense, or it doesn't. It's either
true, or it's not (or it's true to me and not to you), either way if we look
at it with the objective of learning from each other, perhaps we could
actually do this? Just a though ;)
Frank is just
putting the period on it, so to speak, by showing how this relates to
Our
Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
No, Pester Funk did nothing of the sort since he ignored the actual
question
(which was, basically, "If we can't see god and live, how did Moses see
his
backside?") PF addressed no part of that question but, as usual, went on
some wild tangent.
You are correct in that Frank did not answer the question, but I don't
believe I said that he did answer the question. Like I said, he is showing
us how, though it is true we cannot see God, manhas seen God incarnate, that
is the Word (or spirit if you will) made flesh. Actually you said "if God
DID manifest himself in human form" above, and Frank said that he did this.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
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|
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|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 08:12:24 PM |
|
|
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:A9ILa.33$fg.12@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
In talk.atheism John Vogel <jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
The question was directed toward me and already answered.
BTW, just as a sidenote; yes, the question was put to you. But then PF
jumped in to remark on it like he was answering it as well but his
statements had no real bearing on the original question. That's why I said
what I did about "was he going to answer it or not?"
I agree that you answered it. Not that I agree the answer was right but
I'm
not gonna argue that point any further.
I would appreciate it if we could discuss the point further, without arguing
about anything.
When I said "argue", I meant it in a "debate/discuss/show argument for",
etc. and not in a "yelling match" type of a way :). I don't agree with what
you said but at least you're being cordial about it and not acting like PF
does all the time so, no, it's not really an 'argument' in that sense :)
Either what I say makes sense, or it doesn't. It's either
true, or it's not (or it's true to me and not to you), either way if we look
at it with the objective of learning from each other, perhaps we could
actually do this? Just a though ;)
Ok, as to your answer; I still don't see why you can take the words
literally in some places and figuratively in others with no rhyme-nor-reason
to it. It said specifically that we can't look at god, period, without
dying. It didn't say anything about looking at him as a whole or a part,
etc. It's just like if I said "You can't look at the sun without going
blind." If you looked at any side of the sun, you'd be blinded. But then god
lets Moses look at his backside as though one side was easier to see than
the other. If you ask me, it's more like someone trying to hide something.
Frank is just
putting the period on it, so to speak, by showing how this relates to
Our
Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
No, Pester Funk did nothing of the sort since he ignored the actual
question
(which was, basically, "If we can't see god and live, how did Moses see
his
backside?") PF addressed no part of that question but, as usual, went on
some wild tangent.
You are correct in that Frank did not answer the question, but I don't
believe I said that he did answer the question. Like I said, he is showing
us how, though it is true we cannot see God, manhas seen God incarnate, that
is the Word (or spirit if you will) made flesh. Actually you said "if God
DID manifest himself in human form" above, and Frank said that he did this.
And my "if god..." was in direct reference to the time that Moses 'saw' him
(i.e. "I'll walk past" and "I'll put my hand in front of your eyes" and
"you'll see my backside") and had nothing to do with him manifesting himself
at other times. So again, it had no bearing on the question.
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--
Mike atheism: a non-prophet organization...
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"If money is the root of all evil, then why does the church always want it??"
WWJD=What Would Jesus Drive? ("He drove them out in his Fury")
.
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| User: "John Vogel" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 09:28:02 PM |
|
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<prabbit1@shamrocksgf.com> wrote in message
news:Y7MLa.7950$gu6.4128@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
<snip>
Ok, as to your answer; I still don't see why you can take the words
literally in some places and figuratively in others with no
rhyme-nor-reason
to it.
Personally, I take VERY LITTLE of the bible literally. I agree with Zophar
the Naamathite where he says in Job 11:7-8 "Canst thou by searching find out
God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as
heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?". Or
where Job says in 26:14 "Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a
portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?".
I echo David where he says in Psalms 139:6 "Such knowledge is too wonderful
for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect
is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child,
I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when
I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass,
darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know
even as also I am known. (1Co 13:9-12 KJV)
It said specifically that we can't look at god, period, without
dying. It didn't say anything about looking at him as a whole or a part,
etc. It's just like if I said "You can't look at the sun without going
blind." If you looked at any side of the sun, you'd be blinded. But then
god
lets Moses look at his backside as though one side was easier to see than
the other. If you ask me, it's more like someone trying to hide something.
All I can say is that, if you take it literally to mean Gods physical hand
and his physical backside, then you would have to discount much of what the
bible says about God. If we understand it to mean what I understand it to
mean, it makes sense (at least to me), and it is easily digested. We cannot
see God anymore then we can see the universe, but we can see the stars and
the moon and the sun, and know that the universe is there, even IF we cannot
see it totally, we can at least see the "back side" of it.
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| User: "386sx" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
29 Jun 2003 10:41:34 PM |
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John Vogel wrote:
All I can say is that, if you take it literally to mean Gods physical
hand and his physical backside, then you would have to discount much of
what the bible says about God. If we understand it to mean what I
understand it to mean, it makes sense (at least to me), and it is easily
digested. We cannot see God anymore then we can see the universe, but
we can see the stars and the moon and the sun, and know that the
universe is there, even IF we cannot see it totally, we can at least see
the "back side" of it.
From the viewpoint of Genesis, your analogy makes no sense Mr. Vogel. We
cannot see the entire universe because presently we are limited in our
capabilities to view it all, not because God put us in a rock and covered
us with his hand as he passed by. Your analogy is a complete non sequitur
and an attempt at ob·fus·ca·tion either because you are trolling or you
can't make any sense out of the contradictions you pretend you are
harmonising.
Supposedly God prevented Moses from seeing God's face, but Moses was not
limited in his capability to see the face of God - it's just that if he
did see his face, he would die. God didn't want him to die so he
prevented Moses from seeing his face. What is the reason Moses cannot see
his face?
"for no one may see me and live."
Can't argue with God, Mr. Vogel. If the reason we can't see the "face of
God" is because we are limited in our capacity to do so, then the reason
we can't see the face of God would *not* be "because we would die" since
it would be beyond our abilities to see his face in the first place -
which would contradict Genesis (what else is new) and would contradict
your own eisegesis (what else is new.)
--
"He affirmed that only in man we had the beatings of the heart, that the
left side of the body was colder than the right, that men have more teeth
than women." -- John Tyndall
.
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| User: "Keenan Clay Wilkie" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
12 Jul 2003 02:07:30 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> writes:
"steve_h" <steve.howarth@bigfoot.co.m> wrote in message
news:3F0EE9A7.8090103@bigfoot.co.m...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Start telling us what you believe in,
I believe you are a liar and the a terrible advertisement for
christianity.
I am here to discuss Christ and help people to make an informed choice
for or against the Christ. You are here to discuss the deplorable character
of posters. I document everything I say with holy scripture. You merely
opinionate.
Frank, given that you've been documented as quoting at least two different
people out of context and LYING about their statements, why should we
believe ANYTHING that you have to say about Christ?
Just to refresh your memory, Jesse said "Nobody has demonstrated that
society needs to improve itself by believing some megalomaniacal street
preacher was god. " (http://tinyurl.com/glo5)
You, however, couldn't reply to that. Since you couldn't think of an
intelligent response, you just decided to LIE about what Jesse had said,
cutting his quote short and turning it into "Nobody has demonstrated that
society needs to improve itself" (http://tinyurl.com/glo7)
You lied, Frank. You dishonestly misrepresented Jesse's statement. If
you're going to engage in such overt dishonesty, why should we believe
that anything that you say regarding Christ is truthful?
--
See the documented lies of Pastor Frank: http://tinyurl.com/6009
Saddam's name coded in a famous and old book: http://tinyurl.com/6mr4
Back To The Future DVD Warning: http://tinyurl.com/6007
d a r k s t a r @ i g l o u . c o m | atheist #29
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
30 Jun 2003 02:29:06 PM |
|
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John Vogel wrote:
"386sx" <386sx@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A9F103A38EFXx386xX@130.133.1.4...
John Vogel wrote:
All I can say is that, if you take it literally to mean Gods physical
hand and his physical backside, then you would have to discount much of
what the bible says about God. If we understand it to mean what I
understand it to mean, it makes sense (at least to me), and it is easily
digested. We cannot see God anymore then we can see the universe, but
we can see the stars and the moon and the sun, and know that the
universe is there, even IF we cannot see it totally, we can at least see
the "back side" of it.
From the viewpoint of Genesis, your analogy makes no sense Mr. Vogel. We
cannot see the entire universe because presently we are limited in our
capabilities to view it all, not because God put us in a rock and covered
us with his hand as he passed by. Your analogy is a complete non sequitur
and an attempt at ob·fus·ca·tion either because you are trolling or you
can't make any sense out of the contradictions you pretend you are
harmonising.
Supposedly God prevented Moses from seeing God's face, but Moses was not
limited in his capability to see the face of God - it's just that if he
did see his face, he would die. God didn't want him to die so he
prevented Moses from seeing his face. What is the reason Moses cannot see
his face?
"for no one may see me and live."
Your right, it's a weak analogy, but I don't believe it is really a
non-sequitor. The reason why Moses could not see "the face of God" and live,
is because Moses (or man) is incapable of conceiving the total awesomeness
of the Lord, IMHO. What I was trying to say above is in regards to seeing a
"part of God" and seeing "the face of God". I am trying to be as clear as
possible, but obviously you and others see my explanation at an attempt at
obfuscation. Sorry if think this is so. When I compare God to the universe,
it is only to show that we cannot see the whole, but we can see part, as
when Moses could not see the "face" but could see the "back parts"... it's
obviously (at least to me) figurative speaking and not to be taking
literally.
We cannot see God because presently we are limited in our capabilities to
see Him "face to face" as it were, this limitations is based on our carnal
minds, and if we did see him "face to face" we could not live with this
knowledge, it would be too awesome for our weak minds to actually comprehend
or encompass... we would die...
===>Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face,
just as a man speaks to his friend.
Deuteronomy 34:10
Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses,
whom the LORD knew face to face,
.
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| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
01 Jul 2003 02:06:11 AM |
|
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F008F82.4E8D0BDC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...
John Vogel wrote:
"386sx" <386sx@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A9F103A38EFXx386xX@130.133.1.4...
John Vogel wrote:
All I can say is that, if you take it literally to mean Gods
physical
hand and his physical backside, then you would have to discount much
of
what the bible says about God. If we understand it to mean what I
understand it to mean, it makes sense (at least to me), and it is
easily
digested. We cannot see God anymore then we can see the universe,
but
we can see the stars and the moon and the sun, and know that the
universe is there, even IF we cannot see it totally, we can at least
see
the "back side" of it.
From the viewpoint of Genesis, your analogy makes no sense Mr. Vogel.
We
cannot see the entire universe because presently we are limited in our
capabilities to view it all, not because God put us in a rock and
covered
us with his hand as he passed by. Your analogy is a complete non
sequitur
and an attempt at ob·fus·ca·tion either because you are trolling or
you
can't make any sense out of the contradictions you pretend you are
harmonising.
Supposedly God prevented Moses from seeing God's face, but Moses was
not
limited in his capability to see the face of God - it's just that if
he
did see his face, he would die. God didn't want him to die so he
prevented Moses from seeing his face. What is the reason Moses cannot
see
his face?
"for no one may see me and live."
Your right, it's a weak analogy, but I don't believe it is really a
non-sequitor. The reason why Moses could not see "the face of God" and
live,
is because Moses (or man) is incapable of conceiving the total
awesomeness
of the Lord, IMHO. What I was trying to say above is in regards to
seeing a
"part of God" and seeing "the face of God". I am trying to be as clear
as
possible, but obviously you and others see my explanation at an attempt
at
obfuscation. Sorry if think this is so. When I compare God to the
universe,
it is only to show that we cannot see the whole, but we can see part, as
when Moses could not see the "face" but could see the "back parts"...
it's
obviously (at least to me) figurative speaking and not to be taking
literally.
We cannot see God because presently we are limited in our capabilities
to
see Him "face to face" as it were, this limitations is based on our
carnal
minds, and if we did see him "face to face" we could not live with this
knowledge, it would be too awesome for our weak minds to actually
comprehend
or encompass... we would die...
===>Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face,
just as a man speaks to his friend.
Deuteronomy 34:10
Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses,
whom the LORD knew face to face,
Lib, this is just getting old. Were you see contradictions, I see someone
not willing to study to understand the idioms of the Ancient Hebrew , and
certainly unwilling to understand the Spritual wisdom with which one must
discern the scriptures, if it is to make any sense. I'm not going to teach
you Hebrew, or go through each and every idomatic expression, or explain
what metaphorical and allegorical language is about. It's not doing anybody
any good, and it's obvious to me, you simply DO NOT WANT to understand.
Plain and simple. Your objective is clear. You don't want to learn, as far
as I am concerned. So in this case, I am finished teaching.
I don't mean to sound arrogant or presumptious, but it's just getting old,
Lib.
If you ever really want to know how to find God, to know God, and to serve
God, I am more then willing to guide you, but it's clear to me (as it should
be to you) that these discussions on the nature of God (relating to the
scriptures above) is going absolutely nowhere. I have wasted too much time
on this, time which could be much better invested. You have what I said, and
if you want to read it again, maybe you'll come to some kind of
understanding. But, then that would presume you want to understand.
Obviously you don't, so go troll somewhere else... I'm finished with you.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
01 Jul 2003 11:46:25 AM |
|
|
John Vogel wrote:
"386sx" <386sx@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A9F103A38EFXx386xX@130.133.1.4...
John Vogel wrote:
All I can say is that, if you take it literally to mean Gods
physical
hand and his physical backside, then you would have to discount much
of
what the bible says about God. If we understand it to mean what I
understand it to mean, it makes sense (at least to me), and it is
easily
digested. We cannot see God anymore then we can see the universe,
but
we can see the stars and the moon and the sun, and know that the
universe is there, even IF we cannot see it totally, we can at least
see
the "back side" of it.
From the viewpoint of Genesis, your analogy makes no sense Mr. Vogel.
We
cannot see the entire universe because presently we are limited in our
capabilities to view it all, not because God put us in a rock and
covered
us with his hand as he passed by. Your analogy is a complete non
sequitur
and an attempt at ob·fus·ca·tion either because you are trolling or
you
can't make any sense out of the contradictions you pretend you are
harmonising.
Supposedly God prevented Moses from seeing God's face, but Moses was
not
limited in his capability to see the face of God - it's just that if
he
did see his face, he would die. God didn't want him to die so he
prevented Moses from seeing his face. What is the reason Moses cannot
see
his face?
"for no one may see me and live."
Your right, it's a weak analogy, but I don't believe it is really a
non-sequitor. The reason why Moses could not see "the face of God" and
live,
is because Moses (or man) is incapable of conceiving the total
awesomeness
of the Lord, IMHO. What I was trying to say above is in regards to
seeing a
"part of God" and seeing "the face of God". I am trying to be as clear
as
possible, but obviously you and others see my explanation at an attempt
at
obfuscation. Sorry if think this is so. When I compare God to the
universe,
it is only to show that we cannot see the whole, but we can see part, as
when Moses could not see the "face" but could see the "back parts"...
it's
obviously (at least to me) figurative speaking and not to be taking
literally.
We cannot see God because presently we are limited in our capabilities
to
see Him "face to face" as it were, this limitations is based on our
carnal
minds, and if we did see him "face to face" we could not live with this
knowledge, it would be too awesome for our weak minds to actually
comprehend
or encompass... we would die...
===>Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face,
just as a man speaks to his friend.
Deuteronomy 34:10
Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses,
whom the LORD knew face to face,
Lib, this is just getting old. Were you see contradictions, I see someone
not willing to study to understand the idioms of the Ancient Hebrew , and
certainly unwilling to understand the Spritual wisdom with which one must
discern the scriptures, if it is to make any sense.
===>TRANSLATION: Unwilling to see it YOUR way!
I'm not going to teach
you Hebrew,
===>I don't expect you to.
or go through each and every idomatic expression, or explain
what metaphorical and allegorical language is about. It's not doing anybody
any good, and it's obvious to me, you simply DO NOT WANT to understand.
Plain and simple. Your objective is clear. You don't want to learn, as far
as I am concerned. So in this case, I am finished teaching.
===>Thanks! You are one of the LAST persons from whom I
would want to learn!
I don't mean to sound arrogant or presumptious,
===>But that's EXACTLY what you ARE, regardless of how you "sound".
You may also add CONCEITED!
but it's just getting old,
Lib.
If you ever really want to know how to find God, to know God, and to serve
God, I am more then willing to guide you,
===>Into intellectual darkness and insincerity????
"Guidance" from someone who fails and refuses to see that
the Bible is a collection of writings by DIFFERENT
authors, each of whom simply wrote down
his own ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies which,
by that very nature, will often differ from one another???
NO THANKS! -- L.
.
|
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| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
01 Jul 2003 01:51:13 PM |
|
|
"Libertarius" <The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in
message news:1b6bb94f1085cceb118fb42d452fce9d@news.scbiz.com...
John Vogel wrote:
<snip>
Lib, this is just getting old. Were you see contradictions, I see
someone
not willing to study to understand the idioms of the Ancient Hebrew ,
and
certainly unwilling to understand the Spritual wisdom with which one
must
discern the scriptures, if it is to make any sense.
===>TRANSLATION: Unwilling to see it YOUR way!
Right.Unwilling to see it MY way or OUR way, or God's Way for that matter.
I'm not going to teach
you Hebrew,
===>I don't expect you to.
Good, then I guess you won't be too dissapointed ;)
or go through each and every idomatic expression, or explain
what metaphorical and allegorical language is about. It's not doing
anybody
any good, and it's obvious to me, you simply DO NOT WANT to understand.
Plain and simple. Your objective is clear. You don't want to learn, as
far
as I am concerned. So in this case, I am finished teaching.
===>Thanks! You are one of the LAST persons from whom I
would want to learn!
I don't doubt that at all.
I don't mean to sound arrogant or presumptious,
===>But that's EXACTLY what you ARE, regardless of how you "sound".
You may also add CONCEITED!
There's a difference between being "conceited" and being "convinced" or of
"having convictions". But, your more then welcome to your opinion about me.
Most people I have discussed scripture with, however, would disagree with
you, atheist and Christian alike. I'm very open minded, and readily admit
that I am can be wrong about many things, which is why I am always learning.
I don't think you, however, believe there is even the slightest possiblity
that you might be wrong...
but it's just getting old,
Lib.
If you ever really want to know how to find God, to know God, and to
serve
God, I am more then willing to guide you,
===>Into intellectual darkness and insincerity????
I don't need to guide you to that place, you are already living there.
"Guidance" from someone who fails and refuses to see that
the Bible is a collection of writings by DIFFERENT
authors, each of whom simply wrote down
his own ideas, opinions, speculations and fantasies which,
by that very nature, will often differ from one another???
NO THANKS! -- L.
I not only know, but have said, myself, that the bible is a collection of
writings by different authors. The rest of what you say about their own
"ideas, opinions, speculations and fantisies" is YOUR speculation, whereas I
believe they wrote by the inspirtaion of the God you refuse to aknowledge.
Anyway, I could go on showing you that what you said here doesn't even
follow from what we were discussing, but like i said I've wasted enough time
with foolish and unlearned questions, and I think the best thing to do with
you is just to ignore you from now on.
I do pray that you come to an understanding of God, someday, and I pray that
you open your mind to His Word, that you might stop believing yourself to be
so wise, and humble yourself before God, so that you might know the wisdom
that comes from HIM. In Jesus Christ's Holy Name, I pray you do find God.
I'm only sorry that I cannot help you.
Seek and you will find. What you seek, that is what you find. Seek errors
and contradictions, you will find error and contradictions. Seek to disprove
God, and you will disprove God. Seek to know God, and you will know God.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Vogel" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
03 Jul 2003 12:56:17 AM |
|
|
"John D. Leckie" <ighnot2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vff5gv0g5ii88mpd77d0vu4ekj4tsf20jf@4ax.com...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:51:13 -0400, "John Vogel"
<jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
Seek and you will find. What you seek, that is what you find. Seek errors
and contradictions, you will find error and contradictions. Seek to
disprove
God, and you will disprove God. Seek to know God, and you will know God.
So, it's all in your head, then. You only find a "soul" or "mind"
because you are seeking one. That's self-delusion. You seek a god,
and so you have one.
It's pretty simply, John. You really are almost there, actually
understanding what I mean, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't
seeking the truth, so what you find is what you are seeking.
I, myself, never sought to disprove any god.
You just did, by believing that what I said was self-delusional. If you were
open to proof of God, soul, spirit, and the like, you would have understood
the truth in what I said, and you would have explored that truth, rather
then finding lies and deception in my words and seeking to explore these.
I see no evidence for
the existence of a god.
How could you if you are not SEEking evidence?
How is that seeking to disprove?
If you see no evidence for God, then you are ignoring the evidence. We see
evidence for God in everything God has created, and we see more evidence for
God in the scripture, and we see more then enough evidence for God in the
Spirit which is dwelling within us, His Spirit. We seek God, and we find
that God is with us (Emanuel), that God's Salvation (Yahshua-Jesus) is a
gift to all who will receive it, and we find that we can be one with our
Creator through our faith in Him. All of this comes from seeking, from
seeing evidence, and examining the evidence, not only physical evidence, but
spiritual evidence as well. But then, if you don't believe God exists, what
reason would you have to seek Him? But if you don't believe God exists then
you MUST have some sort of proof (at least of a subjective, intellectual
nature) that he does not exist. How did you come by this evidence that there
is no God? Did you analyze the available information, and base your
conclusion on the collective data, pros and cons? If not, then when yousay
you see no evidence it tells me the reason you see no evidence is because
you did not seek the evidence. The evidence is there for you, you just don't
want to see it, so you don't seek it. If you don't seek it, you must be
seeking something besides it...
I only know
what the scientific method has revealed over time, and I did not
personally SEEK those bits of information that come together to give
an overall picture.
Did you not seek knowledge? To know? In what manner did you pursue this
knowledge? Did you seek knowledge to understand God? If not, then why does
it surprise you when I say you haven't found God because you haven't been
seeking him?
Your belief is based on need, and mine is based on observation and
evidence.
No, your belief is based on how you choose to perceive the evidence, and how
you choose to perceive the observations. My beliefs are based on the same
principal. I seek God, with the mindset that God does exist, and I have
found Him, or rather I have come to know Him, as he was never "lost", he has
always been, regardless of how I might have believed, I just simply did not
acknowledge Him. I chose to disacknowledge him at one time, and I chose to
disprove his existence to myself as well as to others, but when I realized
the message that Christ was teaching, when I finally heard the message and
applied it to my own life, I realized that I had been PURPOSELY
shortchanging myself, not only in eternal glory and salvation, but also in
this world, in this life. The gospel of our salvation is clear, Jesus showed
us the way to God, he is the Truth the Way and the Light, the Word of God in
the flesh. By following His Word, which is of God, we believe in His Name
(which is of God), and we fulfill all righteousness In His Name (though it
is not WE who fulfill, but God). IOW by our observations and our evidence we
believe in the Power and Glory of Our Lord and Saviour and we are filled
with His Holy Spirit! Do we need this? Yes we do! I think we all need this,
but it's not just based on need, it's based on subjective evidence in our
souls, and it's based on the purely awesome evidence of the Spirit within
us. If you choose to see this, you can and will. Seek and you will find :)
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|
|
|
| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
03 Jul 2003 11:13:08 AM |
|
|
John Vogel wrote:
"John D. Leckie" <ighnot2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vff5gv0g5ii88mpd77d0vu4ekj4tsf20jf@4ax.com...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:51:13 -0400, "John Vogel"
<jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
Seek and you will find. What you seek, that is what you find. Seek errors
and contradictions, you will find error and contradictions. Seek to
disprove
God, and you will disprove God. Seek to know God, and you will know God.
So, it's all in your head, then. You only find a "soul" or "mind"
because you are seeking one. That's self-delusion. You seek a god,
and so you have one.
It's pretty simply, John. You really are almost there, actually
understanding what I mean, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't
seeking the truth, so what you find is what you are seeking.
I, myself, never sought to disprove any god.
You just did, by believing that what I said was self-delusional. If you were
open to proof of God, soul, spirit, and the like, you would have understood
the truth in what I said, and you would have explored that truth, rather
then finding lies and deception in my words and seeking to explore these.
I see no evidence for
the existence of a god.
How could you if you are not SEEking evidence?
===>These are two opposite ways of approaching the world.
SCIENCE/KNOWLEDGE: "I believe it because I see it".
RELIGION/FAITH: "I see it because I believe it."
And the two shall never meet!
Libertarius
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
03 Jul 2003 07:48:46 PM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F045614.67CB0B8@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...
John Vogel wrote:
"John D. Leckie" <ighnot2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vff5gv0g5ii88mpd77d0vu4ekj4tsf20jf@4ax.com...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:51:13 -0400, "John Vogel"
<jvogel2000@hotmail.com> wrote:
Seek and you will find. What you seek, that is what you find. Seek
errors
and contradictions, you will find error and contradictions. Seek to
disprove
God, and you will disprove God. Seek to know God, and you will know
God.
So, it's all in your head, then. You only find a "soul" or "mind"
because you are seeking one. That's self-delusion. You seek a god,
and so you have one.
It's pretty simply, John. You really are almost there, actually
understanding what I mean, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't
seeking the truth, so what you find is what you are seeking.
I, myself, never sought to disprove any god.
You just did, by believing that what I said was self-delusional. If you
were
open to proof of God, soul, spirit, and the like, you would have
understood
the truth in what I said, and you would have explored that truth, rather
then finding lies and deception in my words and seeking to explore
these.
I see no evidence for
the existence of a god.
How could you if you are not SEEking evidence?
===>These are two opposite ways of approaching the world.
SCIENCE/KNOWLEDGE: "I believe it because I see it".
RELIGION/FAITH: "I see it because I believe it."
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any inhumanity to
man, and make caring loving and kind people out of us? We "believe Christ
because we behold his glory" in the cross of Calvary, where He took our
burden of sin upon Himself and bore the consequences of our sin, for us.
No amount of science and knowledge would improve on the character of man
even one iota. In fact science and knowledge have advanced man to the point
where he can destroy all life on earth.
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
Jesus in Matthew. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye
for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite
thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he
maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
---------------------
His teaching is a humongous step up from Judaism's Exodus 21:23-24
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
stripe for stripe."
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
04 Jul 2003 07:57:28 AM |
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"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any inhumanity
to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they produce
some failures, or courts because they produce some criminals, as well as
elimination of religions because they produce some bigots and hypocrites?
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
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| User: "Contad Diction" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
11 Jul 2003 04:19:19 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any inhumanity
to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they produce
some failures, or courts because they produce some criminals, as well as
elimination of religions because they produce some bigots and hypocrites?
You may say Christ does not teach inhumanity, and you may be right, but
others interprete it as justification for inhumanity, and use it as
justification. Witch burning for one example, they may not follow you
definition of God, but it was religion that they used to justify their
actions.
Regards
--
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
12 Jul 2003 04:00:12 AM |
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"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1057954980.398773@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any inhumanity
to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they
produce
some failures, or courts because they produce some criminals, as well as
elimination of religions because they produce some bigots and
hypocrites?
You may say Christ does not teach inhumanity, and you may be right, but
others interprete it as justification for inhumanity, and use it as
justification. Witch burning for one example, they may not follow you
definition of God, but it was religion that they used to justify their
actions.
Many use atheism the same way. Many elevate logic to be their god or
devil. I.e. If I can get away with it, it is profitable for me to kill you
and take what is yours, and as soon as that condition is met, I will. It is
for that reason, that atheists are generally feared and loathed. Can you
blame them?
Furthermore, where else than from within the church can Satan create the
most mischief? There isn't a church in existence, which is not beset by
Satan's minions, all calling themselves Christians, but who do, and justify
doing, the opposite from what Christ preached.
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mt:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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| User: "Contad Diction" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
12 Jul 2003 07:03:51 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1057954980.398773@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any
inhumanity to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they
produce
some failures, or courts because they produce some criminals, as well
as elimination of religions because they produce some bigots and
hypocrites?
You may say Christ does not teach inhumanity, and you may be right, but
others interprete it as justification for inhumanity, and use it as
justification. Witch burning for one example, they may not follow you
definition of God, but it was religion that they used to justify their
actions.
Many use atheism the same way. Many elevate logic to be their god or
devil. I.e. If I can get away with it, it is profitable for me to kill you
and take what is yours, and as soon as that condition is met, I will. It
is for that reason, that atheists are generally feared and loathed. Can
you blame them?
I wouldn't agree with that. Obviously there are inhumanities caused by
atheists, but it is generally for a reason other than there non belief in
God (although I suppose you could argue that it is becuase they don't
believe in god that they have these other reasons). Again though you use
your personal definition of god, which is different than the standard
christian definition of god. For the sake of coherence, perhaps you could
explicitly say when you are using the word god to mean 'god the entity', or
using it to mean 'god the primary motivation of action'.
Furthermore, where else than from within the church can Satan create
the
most mischief? There isn't a church in existence, which is not beset by
Satan's minions, all calling themselves Christians, but who do, and
justify doing, the opposite from what Christ preached.
If you agree that there are many withen the church that use christianity as
justification for inhuman actions, would you agree then that this is a
failing of the church, and do you prepose any means by which the church
could improve iteself, to help these people who have obvious misinterpreted
their teachings.
Regards
--
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
12 Jul 2003 10:34:13 PM |
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"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1058008048.760617@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1057954980.398773@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any
inhumanity to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of
us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting
atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they
produce
some failures, or courts because they produce some criminals, as well
as elimination of religions because they produce some bigots and
hypocrites?
You may say Christ does not teach inhumanity, and you may be right, but
others interprete it as justification for inhumanity, and use it as
justification. Witch burning for one example, they may not follow you
definition of God, but it was religion that they used to justify their
actions.
Many use atheism the same way. Many elevate logic to be their god or
devil. I.e. If I can get away with it, it is profitable for me to kill
you
and take what is yours, and as soon as that condition is met, I will. It
is for that reason, that atheists are generally feared and loathed. Can
you blame them?
I wouldn't agree with that. Obviously there are inhumanities caused by
atheists, but it is generally for a reason other than there non belief in
God (although I suppose you could argue that it is becuase they don't
believe in god that they have these other reasons). Again though you use
your personal definition of god, which is different than the standard
christian definition of god. For the sake of coherence, perhaps you could
explicitly say when you are using the word god to mean 'god the entity',
or
using it to mean 'god the primary motivation of action'.
In Christ both conditions are fulfilled. Christ is both "God the entity"
AND God the Holy Spirit AKA the motivating factor: -love.
Furthermore, where else than from within the church can Satan create
the
most mischief? There isn't a church in existence, which is not beset by
Satan's minions, all calling themselves Christians, but who do, and
justify doing, the opposite from what Christ preached.
If you agree that there are many withen the church that use christianity
as
justification for inhuman actions, would you agree then that this is a
failing of the church, and do you prepose any means by which the church
could improve iteself, to help these people who have obvious
misinterpreted
their teachings.
That's not as easy as you suppose, for we all are Christians because we
believe we need to, by reason that we "fall short of the glory of God". The
church being a hospital for sinners can't throw out the severely sick and
deluded, can they?
--
Pastor Frank
Phil:4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, honest and just,
and whatsoever things are pure, lovely, and of good report; if there be any
virtue, praise and thanksgiving, think on these things.
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| User: "Contad Diction" |
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| Title: Re: Why can't we see God if he exists? |
13 Jul 2003 05:03:18 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1058008048.760617@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1057954980.398773@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Jesse Nowells" <jnowells@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.31.0307032017200.46980-100000@localhost...
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Pastor Frank wrote:
The question is, would "science and knowledge" prevent any
inhumanity to man, and make caring loving and kind people out of
us?
Religion doesn't prevent any inhumanity, & in a lot of cases, it
promotes it.
Show where Christ teaches "inhumanity". Or are you spouting
atheist
doctrine, which specifies the elimination of schools because they
produce
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