On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:13:34 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, "Pastor R.D. Weekly"
<newsgroups@NOSPAM-studythebible.us> pontificated:
You ended your post by saying, "saved by grace", but your entire post
denies
salvation to others whom God has and will continue to save by grace:
homosexuals, even practicing ones.
God can certainly save a practicing homosexual.
However, I feel that for the homosexual to continue
living this way and still claim to be saved, is a
contradiction.
You're qualifying salvation as being morally perfect. Scripture disagrees,
for we're saved by grace, not by good works.
I have done no such thing. I have said that a life
that is sinful is not a life that is from rebirth. If
salvation means just claiming Jesus and doing what you
want, then it means nothing.
Hey, I agree that salation is more than just claiming Jesus and doing what
you want. It's about ACKNOWLEDGING Him as Savior and MAKING Him Lord. So,
certainly we SHOULD obey Him in all things. But, NO CHRISTIAN has been
obedient in ALL things. Everyone has sinned SINCE being saved. Why do we
point out homosexuals as being the ones who have LOST or never attained unto
salvation?
You are playing word games. See below.
There is a difference between occasionally committing a
sin and willfully disobeying God in your every day
life. That's like claiming that it's okay to hire
hookers and claim I'm saved. So tell, why should Jimmy
Swaggart have stepped down? After all, don't all
Christians sin and if so, why not just have group sex
right in church? Isn't it a lie to pretend and then go
have group sex? That's where your logic leads.
If you ask me, Jimmy Swaggart shouldn't have HAD to step down. He should
have been able to repent of the sins and continue on in ministry.
Not according to you. According to you, he could have
kept living that way for the rest of his life and still
claimed to have been saved.
You throw around the word "repent" when it's convenient
for you. But when it is demonstrated that you are
contradicting yourself, you try to dodge your own
words.
Again I underscore the fact that sin is sin and I'm not saying it's okay,
Yes, you are, when you say that practicing homosexuals
can go on that way and claim to be saved and the Bible
says the opposite (and remember, this was written to
Christians)...
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9) Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit
the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither
fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male
prostitutes, nor homosexuals,
10) nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of
God.
The Bible says what you claim, won't happen. The Bible
says, "Do not be lead astray". You have been lead
astray and are leading others astray.
Yes, everyone sins. However, there is a difference
between a Christian who was/is homosexual and commits
an single act of fornication with another homosexual
and then is sorry and repents (a 180% turn away from
the sin) and a homosexual who claims to be saved and
who continues to live in that same sin. The former I
can say is probably a saved person. The latter I would
say is not and the Bible backs me up on that.
You are trying to claim that since a saved person may
commit a sin, that means it's the same as someone who
willfully violates God's word on a daily basis. You
may say that you're not claiming that, but indeed you
are, when you say that those who continue to live a
homosexual lifestyle, even for years, are still saved.
God, in the Bible calls us out of the ways of this
world, not to continue in them, as the wicked of the
world do and then claim to somehow be different. "Let
your light so shine before men". Tell me, how is that
accomplished, when we live as the world does?
What did Jesus tell the Pharisees?
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"
- Matthew 3:8
Did He say, "Hey, just get saved and then repent
later."? No, He didn't.
Look at His statement here...
"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the
righteous, but sinners TO REPENTANCE." - Matthew 9:13
What is one of the things which brings joy in Heaven?
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner THAT REPENTETH, more than over ninety
and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
- Luke 15:7
Note that Jesus did not say, "One believer", nor did He
say, "One child of God", but rather, He spoke of those
who are not His. Those who are not children of God.
Those who are God's children have repented. Then they
are saved. That is not to say that we must work for
salvation. Rather, it is to say that God does not call
someone saved, whose heart is not right and whose heart
He has not prepared.
Philippians 3:13-14,17-19
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:
but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which
are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which
are before,
14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high
calling of God in Christ Jesus.
17) Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark
them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
18) (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and
now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of
the cross of Christ:
19) Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly,
and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly
things.)
Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. And note, "such WERE some
of you".
I agree. We should no longer be defined as the sins we commit. So, maybe gay
Christians, in the sense you're talking about, IS an oxymoron. Maybe we
should rather say, Christians who still commit homosexual sins. Would that
better suffice you?
No, it wouldn't, because if they're continuing in that
lifestyle, it shows that they aren't Christians. You
want to redefine the word "Christian" as meaning, "One
who says they're saved, but lives as the rest of the
world does, except they go to church on Sunday".
There is no "sense". A homosexual who continues in
homosexual relations, is not a saved individual. The
Bible says, "such WERE some of you", not, "such ARE
some of you". It also says that people who live that
way will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, which btw, is
within us. Therefore, if they will not inherit the
Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of God is within us,
then they are not saved, period.
License is excusing sin and claiming it doesn't matter,
because we all sin to some degree. And if we continue
in this sin, then we give it power over us.
I agree... But, that is NOT what I've ever stated. Isn't bearing false
witness a sin, too? I don't mean that as a defensive accusation, it's just
very frustrating when people put words in your mouth, especially when you
know that your REAL words, the ones they avoid, speak to the issue at hand.
I didn't bear false witness. You clearly stated that
one can be a saved Christian and continue to live in a
homosexual relationship. You said it, not me. Why do
you think people are taking exception to your posts
regarding this? Surely you don't think it's because
they had nothing better to do with their day than pick
on the new guy. :)
Nowhere did Paul say that to continue in a sin is okay.
Christians sin on occasion. I may get upset and yell
at someone. Things happen. But the difference is, I
ask for forgiveness and I repent and make an effort not
to do that again. What you are talking about, is
someone who is gay continuing to live a gay lifestyle
and claiming to be saved. Show me one instance of that
in the NT. Just one. The fact is, the people
repented. A 180 degree turn about and lived for
Christ. They forsook their sinful ways and served God.
If someone isn't doing that, then they are making a
false claim to salvation. While some things may take a
little time, I would not accept the confession of
Christ of anyone who states that they are going home to
their gay lover.
What you will and will not accept is beside the point. God accepts them...
Prove it Scripturally. Show me one passage that says
that God accepts those who continue to willfully live
in sin and considers them saved.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11) But now I wrote to you not to associate intimately;
if anyone is called a brother and is either a
fornicator, or a covetous one, or an idolater, or a
reviler, or a drunkard, or a plunderer, with such a one
not to eat.
Note that Paul does not say that the person committing
the acts IS a brother. He says if he is CALLED a
brother and says we shouldn't even eat with that person
and we are not to associate intimately with that
person. The Scriptures mark a difference here between
the sinners of the world committing sin and one who
claims to be a Christian committing those same sins.
12) For what is it to me also to judge the ones
outside? Do you not judge those inside?
The church is to judge those who are in the church.
13) But God will judge the ones outside. "And you shall
put out from yourselves the evil one."
Here we are clearly told to put that person out from
among us. We are not to associate with them for any
reason other than for them to come in repentance for
their sin. We are to put them out from the church. We
are not to coddle them and tell them they are saved,
even though they live in willful sin.
Now there are the COMMANDS from Scripture. You either
obey God's word, or you are telling God that YOU know
better than He does who is saved and what should be
done. Your choice. Make one. But don't claim to be
serving God as a pastor, while violating the word of
God on this matter (and teaching others to do the same)
and allowing the church to be infected by false
Christians, who claim to be saved and are really wolves
in sheep's clothing. Paul says they are "evil ones".
You say they are God's saved children. Who is right?
Paul? Or you? Guess who has my vote. :)
They DO need to be brought to
repentance, but they are still saved.
You are wrong. You have the cart before the horse.
Repentance comes BEFORE salvation, NOT after. God does
not save those who do not repent.
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say,
Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
- Matthew 4:17
Show me one passage in which God tells us that we are
saved and to repent later.
You ARE preaching "NO Lordship gospel" and it is a
false one. Nowhere does Scripture say that we are
saved and can repent at some later time.
As I said, I would suggest that you pick up a book by
John MacArthur, called, "The Gospel According to the
Apostles". It will reveal quite a bit to you. You can
even save money and buy it used for like $5.00. Here
is a URL for it...
http://tinyurl.com/656j5
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
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the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
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