Religions > Bible > Re: WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give????
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Contad Diction" |
| Date: |
18 Jul 2003 04:03:16 AM |
| Object: |
Re: WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1058221132.651042@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Jesus Christ is our God incarnate, "a physical entity" who represents
the essence of God, which are "the ideals of Christianity" perfectly. Do
you have any doubts about that?
I thought that was obvious.
There is no logical reason to misunderstand the words the NT whiich I
quote. I do not quote myself, nor invent quotations.
Back to logic again. You enjoy your see-saw, don't you? Lets see know, I
could give you a logical argument, then you will tell me 'god is love' and
logic cannot explain love. I'm beginning to think I could write an
automated Pastor Frank responce generator program.
Regards
--
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
18 Jul 2003 08:58:27 AM |
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"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1058515579.309225@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Contad Diction" <madeup@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:1058221132.651042@ananke.eclipse.net.uk...
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a
God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the
'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent
entity
named god'.
Jesus Christ is our God incarnate, "a physical entity" who
represents
the essence of God, which are "the ideals of Christianity" perfectly.
Do
you have any doubts about that?
I thought that was obvious.
There is no logical reason to misunderstand the words the NT whiich
I
quote. I do not quote myself, nor invent quotations.
Back to logic again. You enjoy your see-saw, don't you? Lets see know, I
could give you a logical argument, then you will tell me 'god is love' and
logic cannot explain love. I'm beginning to think I could write an
automated Pastor Frank responce generator program.
Is that your reason why you cannot understand the words and concepts in
the NT? Or is your answer non-sequitur?
--
Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
.
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
19 Jul 2003 06:32:31 AM |
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2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law - Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can come with
different perspectives.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
20 Jul 2003 06:15:35 PM |
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"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x%9Sa.10$V_4.532@eagle.america.net...
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not
of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit
giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up
the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean
that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold
them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law -
Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came
to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather
than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas, the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name, I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to advance
their own worldly ambitions.
--
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
21 Jul 2003 06:29:22 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:cANSa.1714$GE4.1120@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x%9Sa.10$V_4.532@eagle.america.net...
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not
of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit
giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up
the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean
that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold
them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law -
Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came
to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather
than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas, the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name, I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to advance
their own worldly ambitions.
--
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
21 Jul 2003 02:23:41 PM |
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"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t8QSa.196$V_4.7238@eagle.america.net...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:cANSa.1714$GE4.1120@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x%9Sa.10$V_4.532@eagle.america.net...
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;
not
of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the
spirit
giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I
looked up
the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to
mean
that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and
hold
them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to
law -
Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced
and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ
came
to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions
rather
than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas,
the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name,
I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to
advance
their own worldly ambitions.
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Glad to hear that. Perhaps changing your handle to something reflecting
your beliefs would be in order? What do you think?
--
Pastor Frank
2Cor:12:11: I am become a fool in glorying
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
21 Jul 2003 08:40:26 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:D6YSa.811$7t.470@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t8QSa.196$V_4.7238@eagle.america.net...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:cANSa.1714$GE4.1120@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:x%9Sa.10$V_4.532@eagle.america.net...
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;
not
of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the
spirit
giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I
looked up
the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to
mean
that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and
hold
them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to
law -
Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced
and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ
came
to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions
rather
than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas,
the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name,
I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to
advance
their own worldly ambitions.
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Glad to hear that. Perhaps changing your handle to something reflecting
your beliefs would be in order? What do you think?
--
Pastor Frank
You have a good point and give good advice. I will consider this and may come
up with a more appropriate handle.
.
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
22 Jul 2003 10:31:15 PM |
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"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t8QSa.196$V_4.7238@eagle.america.net...
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You thought that in order to pass as
a Jew in a contemporary Jewish group, the name Caiaphas would make you fit
right in?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair.
.
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 06:41:59 AM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfkvi5$oj7$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t8QSa.196$V_4.7238@eagle.america.net...
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You thought that in order to pass as
a Jew in a contemporary Jewish group, the name Caiaphas would make you fit
right in?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair.
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was - they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an obscure
characters name.
.
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 01:39:21 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfm8nv$hrr$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lwuTa.388$V_4.14726@eagle.america.net...
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle
'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was - they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure
characters name.
I accidentally replied to Ron's post, rather than yours, so I'll correct
that, with a few additional comments.
I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
May I suggest that in the future, if you wish to learn about Judaism,
please, PLEASE, don't assume you can get an accurate picture from a
newsgroup? Let's say Christianity were not just a religion, but a people, a
history, a culture, etc. Would you really want someone who knew nothing
about it forming their opinions from this newsgroup? Newsgroups tend to
attract a lot of crazies and extremists.
If you are sincerely interested in learning about Judaism, please talk to
someone you know that is Jewish and ask them about it. Or visit a
synagogue. Most Reform congregations are very welcoming to visitors --
actually, most congregations in general are welcoming to visitors, but the
Reform congregations do a lot more in English. Most Jews in general are
delighted to meet someone who is actually interested in genuinely
understanding the religion, and not just viewing it as some sort of
eccentric and outdated form of pre-Christ Christianity with dietary laws and
"funny holidays." Also, most Jews view the very idea of proselytization
very negatively, so you don't have to worry that they'll try to convert you.
;-)
In general, Jews may be a bit more reserved about their religion then
members of other religions, because they don't want to do anything that
might be viewed as proselytization.
If, as a Christian, you are uncomfortable visiting a Jewish place of
worship, there are some messianic congregations. They believe that Jesus
was the Messiah but continue to identify with Jewish culture (i.e. they
believe that you can be Jewish and Christian, continue to celebrate Jewish
holidays, observe Jewish law, etc. and still believe in Christ). In
general, they seem much less reserved than non-messianic Jews and they are
Christian, so you might be more comfortable there, and can still learn a
great deal about Judaism as a culture, history and people. Of course, it
won't teach you as much about Judaism as a religion. I'd really suggest
visiting a Reform congregation, or just talking to Jews that you know.
Regards,
Jessica
Thanks Jessica, you seem like a genuinely sincere person and I appreciate the
tips on learning about Judaism. I am more interested in Judaism more so so I
can learn more about the context of the events in the New Testament. I don't
think I could or would convert to Judaism because of my beliefs. You are
absolutely right in that there are a lot of 'crazies' in the Newsgroups and
those crazies have probably shaped the impression I currently have of Judaism.
But, I am learning and studying and can be swayed. My Christian doctines have
dramatically changed over the last 2 years but even with that I am still within
the Christian camp. As diverse as the Christian community is, I can imagine the
divesity with in Judaism being large too.
Now you do understand that doctrinely, the religions of Christianity and Judaism
are opposed to each other and no Judeo-Christian belief system can do justice to
either Judaism or Christianity. But, even though we believe differently, this
still means that we should not mistreat or do injustice against anyone because
of his/her beliefs. I still like to debate with those who embrace Judaism both
because I like the intellectual exercise and because it helps me learn more
about Christianity.
Just to let you know a little about where I come from. I am assuming you
embrace Judaism??
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
28 Jul 2003 07:41:50 PM |
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"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KXFTa.432$V_4.17321@eagle.america.net...
Yes, I am a member of the UMC and most Methodists are really good people.
Methodists have an 'official' church doctrine but often times its members
individually hold different doctrinal beliefs - some liberal and some very
conservative. But the UMC teaches tolerance and asks its members to reach
out
for 'dialog' with those of other faiths and today it encourages especially
a
dialog with those of Islamic faith. I kinda like their policy of wanting
members to get to know and understand others in other faiths and come to
an
understanding that we are all Gods Children. Within the UMC hierarchy,
you
don't hear condemnation of Mohammad or Islam like Jerry Fallwell and many
fundamentalist Baptist espouse.
We were discussing pro and anti-Semitism. There is a major problem with
being a Christian and being dispensationalist as well. Most Jews are
dispensationalists, and many Christians are trying to be both.
A Christian who believes in Christ and His Golden Rule, cannot be a
dispensationalist at the same time. The below will illustrate the issue.
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"
By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was
the guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk
forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel, and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for
1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It originated in England
with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this country by
Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory within
his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book. But
some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of
God. He believed that everything important in all of history must center a
round Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was
reporting it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this
alliance between the militant Israelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.
http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
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| User: "Adario" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 04:05:44 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfmond$r49$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
As you mentioned in another post that you have Jews in your family, I
assume
that you recognize that Judaism is not just a religion, i.e. that it is
possible to be atheist and still be Jewish in the cultural sense. This is
why it disturbs me when I hear people talk about being "against Judaism,
but
not Jews."
You lost me. Most modern scholars believe Judaism was instituted in
Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile. Most historians claim that prior to
the Exile, the inhabitants of the city of Salem or Judea should not be
called Jews for the reason that Judaism did not exist at that time, that
they should be identified as Judeans.
Today, a Jew is a Jew who identifies himself as such and true, some Atheists
identify themselves as Jews. Some Orthodox will tell you that unless one
follows the Jewish law, he is not a Jew. Others will say that if one's
mother was Jewess, the son is a Jew, Jewish.
Jewish is not a race. It's a culture, a way of life, a community, a people.
Originally, Jewish meant Judaist, a member of the Jewish faith we know as
Judaism. Judeans were not all Jews and Jews were not all Judeans.
I think you have been influenced by Jewish or Zionist propaganda who would
want all to believe that Jewish is a race of people, that Jews are
biological descendants of Abraham, of Sem, etc., etc. The old song.
Now when you say that "Judaism is not just a religion.... in the cultural
sense...", it's wrong. What you should have written is " Modern day Jewry is
not just a religion...."
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians? One
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
What's so special about Jews that one cannot be against Judaism without
being anti-Jews.
A person who joins the Christian faith is a Christian and a person who joins
the Jewish faith is a Jewish. Nothing to do with origins nor the shape of
one's nose.
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 05:53:06 PM |
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"Adario" <Adario@Cy-cit-Rot.aaaaa.com> wrote in message
news:yMCTa.6393$1I5.679955@news20.bellglobal.com...
"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfmond$r49$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
As you mentioned in another post that you have Jews in your family, I
assume
that you recognize that Judaism is not just a religion, i.e. that it is
possible to be atheist and still be Jewish in the cultural sense. This
is
why it disturbs me when I hear people talk about being "against Judaism,
but
not Jews."
You lost me. Most modern scholars believe Judaism was instituted in
Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile. Most historians claim that prior to
the Exile, the inhabitants of the city of Salem or Judea should not be
called Jews for the reason that Judaism did not exist at that time, that
they should be identified as Judeans.
I'm reluctant to begin this discussion, as I'm afraid of where it will lead,
especially on a newsgroup dominated by Christians, but here goes...Please
read the entire post before responding. I've noticed that people around
here frequently tend to respond as soon as they see a sentence they disagree
with, without reading on to discover a possible explanation for the comment.
Yes, but most modern-day Jews are descendents of those Judeans. The
religion and the people are contiguous with the Judeans, even if many
Judeans assimilated into other populations, and even if members of other
people married into, converted into, or otherwise joined the Jewish People.
Prior to the Exile, the term Israelites or Judeans is usually used, but that
does not mean that those who returned to Jerusalem after the exile were not
members of the same people that had been deported from it. Actually, the
term "Judean" refers to a resident of Judea, after the Babylonian Exile.
Before then, you had "Israelites" and "Judahites" depending on whether one
lived in the northern kingdom of Israel or the southern kingdom of Judah.
Today, a Jew is a Jew who identifies himself as such and true, some
Atheists
identify themselves as Jews. Some Orthodox will tell you that unless one
follows the Jewish law, he is not a Jew. Others will say that if one's
mother was Jewess, the son is a Jew, Jewish.
There are differing opinions as to what consitutes Jewishness. Reform and
Conservative Jews generally acknowledge patrilineal descent as long as the
child is raised as a member of the Jewish community and publicly and
privately identifies with the Jewish people. Orthodox Jews insist that only
matrilineal descent counts. Either way, if your mother is Jewish, you are
Jewish as well, even if you don't follow the laws. If you are born Jewish
and do not follow halakha, Orthodox Jews will consider you to be a "bad
Jew," but only the extremists (generally, the Israeli ultra-orthodox
extremists) will deny that you are Jewish.
Jewish is not a race. It's a culture, a way of life, a community, a
people.
Originally, Jewish meant Judaist, a member of the Jewish faith we know as
Judaism. Judeans were not all Jews and Jews were not all Judeans.
I think you have been influenced by Jewish or Zionist propaganda who would
want all to believe that Jewish is a race of people, that Jews are
biological descendants of Abraham, of Sem, etc., etc. The old song.
Yes, it's a culture, a way of life, a community, a people, etc. There is an
ethnic component as well, as Jews consider themselves to be one people, in a
national sense, despite being scattered all over the world. Hence, descent
does matter, although it's not particularly important, since one can become
Jewish by converting. But Jews consider themselves to be the descendants of
Jacob. One might point out, lest you dismiss the importance of descent to
the conception of Jewishness, that one's status as a kohen or a Levite is
*still* determined entirely by one's father.
I was pretty sure that your etymology was mistaken, so I looked it up in the
Oxford English Dictionary. "Jew" is defined as "A person of Hebrew descent,
one whose religion is Judaism, an Israelite." So, the OED definition
acknowledges both the religious and ethnic dimensions. The word "Jew"
actually comes from "Judah," the founder of the tribe of Judah and the name
of the kingdom founded by the two non-lost tribes of Israel, the kingdom in
which David and Solomon had their royal city. The term does not come from
"Judaist," hence, in an etymological sense, it acknowledges a national
identity rather than a religious one.
I've *not* been influenced by propaganda, I've been influenced by the
history and teaching of a people who continue to consider themselves a
*people,* and not just members of the same religion.
Hence, my mentor's mother may be very upset that he is an atheist, but none
of us would ever think to suggest he isn't Jewish, himself most of all.
Now when you say that "Judaism is not just a religion.... in the cultural
sense...", it's wrong. What you should have written is " Modern day Jewry
is
not just a religion...."
Fine. Modern day Jewry does not all follow the religion referred to as
Judaism. Better?
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians?
One
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
Was anyone suggesting that it's not possible to be against Christianity but
still love and respect Christians? Certainly not. Many of us who are not
Christian find some aspects of Christianity slightly creepy, but still would
not consider ourselves "against Christians." It is certainly possible to
think that Christianity's rather a bad idea without wanting to see
Christians wiped out. But throughout history, a lot of people haven't made
that distinction when it comes to the Jews. A frequent *Church-supported*
attitude in Europe has been, "if they won't convert, kill 'em." In Spain,
Jews had the choice of converting or being thrown out. Minor Jewish
practices, such as removing the tendon from a leg of lamb or lighting
candles on Friday night and not blowing them out before you went to bed was
enough to bring the Inquisition down on you. Just ask Ines Lopez. Oh
that's right. Even if we were there in 1495, we couldn't ask her, since the
Inquisition executed her. Did she believe in Christ? No way to tell for
sure, since people will say anything under torture. But she made the
mistake of engaging in Jewish practices -- cultural practices, not
necessarily religious ones, and they...Well, trust me, you don't want to
know what they did to her. Was she Christian? Well, she publically
identified as a Christian, followed Christian practices, and so on. She
just kept certain elements of Jewish dietary laws, which could just as
easily have been cultural. For that matter, I'd be surprised if most
Christians found a lamb's sciatic nerve particularly appetizing, but hey,
some people will eat anything! Regardless, a dislike for non-meat parts of
animals can be ascribed to a cultural preference as easily as a religious
law, but historically, people haven't cared.
So, while I'm not to worried about anyone's ability to distinguish between
Christianity as a religion and Christians as people, I'm less comfy with
people's ability to distinguish between Judaism as a religion and Jews as a
people.
What's so special about Jews that one cannot be against Judaism without
being anti-Jews.
Nothing. The only problem is that the border between Christianity and one's
peoplehood, one's nationality, one's ethnic descent, one's cultural norms,
etc. is much clearer than it is for Judaism. Hence, while the term
"Judaism" is generally used to refer to "the Jewish religion," I have heard
it applied to all of the above. Technically, of course, it would be better
to confine "Judaism" to the religion, and "the Jewish people" to the other
uses, but not everyone does. Hence, when someone tells me they're "against
Judaism," it starts to make me a wee bit uncomfortable.
A person who joins the Christian faith is a Christian and a person who
joins
the Jewish faith is a Jewish. Nothing to do with origins nor the shape of
one's nose.
Well, yes and no. A person who is not of Jewish descent and undergoes a
formal conversion is Jewish. But, as I understand it, one who accepts Jesus
Christ as their savior is Christian. Some groups require a baptism, but
that's all it takes. Simple acceptance of Jewish belief, even if one
combines it with Jewish practice, does not make one Jewish. That requires a
formal conversion and acceptance by a bet din. The Conservative and
Orthodox movements require a mikveh, a ritual bath, as well, according to
halakha. If you are male, the Reform and Conservative movements require a
symbolic circumcision, while last I heard the Orthodox still required a
literal one. Generally a year of study with a rabbi before conversion is
required. Throughout the process, it is generally emphasized that one is
joining a *people* not just a religion. And a convert is considered as
Jewish as a born Jew. If he or she converts to another religion, he or she
is not considered non-Jewish, he or she considered an apostate, just as a
born Jew would be. If she is female and has a child, the child is
automatically Jewish just as the child of a born Jewish woman would be. A
convert's parents are not considered part of the equation, as they are not
Jewish, so the convert's Hebrew name, rather than including their parent,
will generally include "son of Abraham" or "daughter of Sarah," as converts
are considered to be the spiritual children of the founders of the Jewish
people, who were themselves converts.
So the two types of conversion, Christian and Jewish, are not exactly
equivalent.
If you don't believe me, or want more information, I would suggest heading
over to jewish.com and utilizing their "Ask a Rabbi" feature. The rabbis
there are generally very friendly and helpful, to Jews and non-Jews alike.
So yes, origins do figure into it, even if they're not an essential part of
the equation.
As for the "shape of one's nose," comment, dear Lord, you don't have to tell
*me* that.
Regards,
Jessica
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 08:04:52 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfn3kj$3q0$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Adario" <Adario@Cy-cit-Rot.aaaaa.com> wrote in message
news:yMCTa.6393$1I5.679955@news20.bellglobal.com...
There are differing opinions as to what consitutes Jewishness. Reform and
Conservative Jews generally acknowledge patrilineal descent as long as the
child is raised as a member of the Jewish community and publicly and
privately identifies with the Jewish people. Orthodox Jews insist that only
matrilineal descent counts.
Either way, if your mother is Jewish, you are
Jewish as well, even if you don't follow the laws.
Was it always that way? I mean the mother determining Jewishness?
Fine. Modern day Jewry does not all follow the religion referred to as
Judaism. Better?
I've had some on the newsgroups tell me that if a Jew accepted Christ, he/she
would be considered an apostate and a sinner. And, that person would have to
seek forgiveness in order to come back into the Jewish community.
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians?
One
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
Was anyone suggesting that it's not possible to be against Christianity but
still love and respect Christians? Certainly not. Many of us who are not
Christian find some aspects of Christianity slightly creepy, but still would
not consider ourselves "against Christians."
From a Jewish perspective, what are some aspects of Christianity that seem
"slightly creepy"?
Nothing. The only problem is that the border between Christianity and one's
peoplehood, one's nationality, one's ethnic descent, one's cultural norms,
etc. is much clearer than it is for Judaism. Hence, while the term
"Judaism" is generally used to refer to "the Jewish religion," I have heard
it applied to all of the above. Technically, of course, it would be better
to confine "Judaism" to the religion, and "the Jewish people" to the other
uses, but not everyone does. Hence, when someone tells me they're "against
Judaism," it starts to make me a wee bit uncomfortable.
That makes sense in that Christians can be opposed to Judaism the religion but
accept Jews and their Culture. Same with Islam - we should oppose Islam but
accept Arabs and their culture. Like Christ said, we should love our neighbors.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
28 Jul 2003 07:49:42 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfnori$en6$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KXFTa.432$V_4.17321@eagle.america.net...
Yes, I am a member of the UMC and most Methodists are really good
people.
Methodists have an 'official' church doctrine but often times its
members
individually hold different doctrinal beliefs - some liberal and some
very
conservative. But the UMC teaches tolerance and asks its members to
reach
out
for 'dialog' with those of other faiths and today it encourages
especially
a dialog with those of Islamic faith. I kinda like their policy of
wanting
members to get to know and understand others in other faiths and come to
an understanding that we are all Gods Children. Within the UMC
hierarchy,
you
don't hear condemnation of Mohammad or Islam like Jerry Fallwell and
many
fundamentalist Baptist espouse.
Thank God. When I saw Pat Robertson praying for the "retirement" of three
Supreme Court Justices on the news, I almost lost it.
But no, the Methodists were lovely people. I was impressed by the
erudition
and variety of views I encountered during a Bible study with them. Glad
to
hear you're not a scary Christian (in which category I will unreservedly
lump Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. And possibly Franklin Graham. Not
sure about him yet.)
Both Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are dispensationalists. There is a
major problem with
being a Christian and being dispensationalist as well. Most Jews are
dispensationalists, and many Christians are trying to be both.
A Christian who believes in Christ and His Golden Rule, cannot be a
dispensationalist at the same time. The below will illustrate the issue.
--
Pastor Frank
THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"
By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was
the guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk
forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel, and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for
1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It originated in England
with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this country by
Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory within
his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book. But
some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of
God. He believed that everything important in all of history must center a
round Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was
reporting it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this
alliance between the militant Israelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.
http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
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| User: "Ron B." |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 07:29:31 AM |
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Caiaphas wrote:
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle
'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 08:25:33 AM |
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"Ron B." <zypher@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:LcvTa.124981$N7.18660@sccrnsc03...
Caiaphas wrote:
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted
up
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle
'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in
the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 01:13:31 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfm2ce$e4i$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Ron B." <zypher@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:LcvTa.124981$N7.18660@sccrnsc03...
Caiaphas wrote:
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted
up
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle
'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in
the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
Not any anti-Jewish feelings at all. I have some Jews in my family. As a
Christian, I am opposed to the religion Judaism as it is opposed to Christ and
Christ opposed Judaism. That is theology. I am opposed to the way modern-day
Israel is treating Arabs and the way it wants to confiscate land -- but that is
because I see nothing Biblical about modern-day Israel and hold Gods principles
of Justice and Fairness higher than considering the Torah as a modern-day land
document.
Those are my beliefs - YMMV.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 03:28:14 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfm2ce$e4i$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Ron B." <zypher@spamcop.net> wrote in message
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in
the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would
be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the
NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup,
it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is being
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
--
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 03:50:36 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:ZgCTa.6803$q87.1240@nntp-post.primus.ca...
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is
being
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that. But I am referring to Jews as
a people or culture, not as a religion, so I certainly hope that you
wouldn't cultivate anti-Jewish feelings toward Jews on the basis of descent
or culture. I hope we can all agree that that would be wrong. One can be
*anti-Judaism* -- i.e. believe that the religion is wrong -- just as one is
anti-every-non-Christian-religion without being antisemitic or
anti-Jewish -- i.e. persecute the people as a *people.* There's a lot more
to being Jewish than religion.
Your comment makes me uncomfortable. Church-sponsored attempts to cultivate
"anti-Jewish feelings" have generally ended in pogroms. Having corresponded
with you briefly before and not found you to be a violent or malicious
person, I sincerely hope that these are not the "anti-Jewish feelings" you
are advocating.
One can believe that a group is mistaken in its religious believes without
perpetuating the idea that they are somehow subhuman or need to be gotten
rid of. Shouldn't the Christian desire to bring everyone to Christ stem
from *love* of other people, even if one does not love their *practices*?
One can, presumably, still hate the sin and love the sinner.
Regards,
Jessica
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
23 Jul 2003 06:31:25 PM |
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"Jessica L. Price" <jessicaprice@wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:bfmses$t74$1@news.doit.wisc.edu...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:ZgCTa.6803$q87.1240@nntp-post.primus.ca...
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is
being
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that. But I am referring to Jews as
a people or culture, not as a religion, so I certainly hope that you
wouldn't cultivate anti-Jewish feelings toward Jews on the basis of descent
or culture. I hope we can all agree that that would be wrong. One can be
*anti-Judaism* -- i.e. believe that the religion is wrong -- just as one is
anti-every-non-Christian-religion without being antisemitic or
anti-Jewish -- i.e. persecute the people as a *people.* There's a lot more
to being Jewish than religion.
Your comment makes me uncomfortable. Church-sponsored attempts to cultivate
"anti-Jewish feelings" have generally ended in pogroms. Having corresponded
with you briefly before and not found you to be a violent or malicious
person, I sincerely hope that these are not the "anti-Jewish feelings" you
are advocating.
One can believe that a group is mistaken in its religious believes without
perpetuating the idea that they are somehow subhuman or need to be gotten
rid of. Shouldn't the Christian desire to bring everyone to Christ stem
from *love* of other people, even if one does not love their *practices*?
One can, presumably, still hate the sin and love the sinner.
Regards,
Jessica
I would guess Pastor Frank misspoke and intended to mean he, like myself, is
anti-Judaism. A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies' on
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them, but there are a lot of
'crazies' supporting the Zionist cause and Jewish Culture. Many of those
'crazies' get kinda crazy when anyone posts negatively or even posts in
opposition to the religion Judaism or disagree with many of the actions of the
modern-day Israeli government. Some of these 'crazies' maintain that you are
anti-Semitic if you are opposed to the way Israel is handling the crisis in the
Middle East.
I am heartened to see that you understand that gentiles can be opposed to the
religion Judaism and not be branded as anti-Semitic.
I agree with Pastor Franks position where he alludes that we prefer that
modern-day Israel be a Christian country instead of a country that promotes a
religion that is opposed to Christ.
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| User: "Jessica L. Price" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
24 Jul 2003 10:36:01 AM |
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"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iVETa.430$V_4.16493@eagle.america.net...
I would guess Pastor Frank misspoke and intended to mean he, like myself,
is
anti-Judaism. A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others
could
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies'
on
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them, but there are a lot
of
'crazies' supporting the Zionist cause and Jewish Culture. Many of those
'crazies' get kinda crazy when anyone posts negatively or even posts in
opposition to the religion Judaism or disagree with many of the actions of
the
modern-day Israeli government. Some of these 'crazies' maintain that you
are
anti-Semitic if you are opposed to the way Israel is handling the crisis
in the
Middle East.
Ah yes. I hear you. On the other hand, among some liberal and some
ultra-Orthodox Jews, agreeing with *anything* the Israeli government does is
considered a sign of bad taste. As I have friends with relatives in Israel,
I know that in certain circles one is not considered fully conversant in the
Middle East situation until one can foam at the mouth about the latest
actions of the Israeli government from both a left-wing *and* a right-wing
perspective. On the other hand, Israel is the only Jewish state in the
world, so while many people I know disagree with a lot of the stuff going on
there, most remain committed to the vision of a Jewish state. And at one
time it was a pretty neat place to live, or so I hear, having never lived
there myself.
I am heartened to see that you understand that gentiles can be opposed to
the
religion Judaism and not be branded as anti-Semitic.
Of course I understand that. It's pretty clear that one of the basic tenets
of Christianity is a wholesale rejection of the possible validity of any
other mode of religious thought. That's not antisemitic unless it becomes
directed at the people themselves.
All that makes me nervous is that it's difficult to speak of "Christian
culture" in the way that one speaks of "Jewish culture" as Christianity is
the dominant belief system in so many different cultures. Obviously, there
is no widespread ethnic or national component to Christianity, and
Christians have never been persecuted as a "race." One cannot exactly speak
of "Christian food," Christianity does not have emblematic languages like
Hebrew, Yiddish or Ladino, there is no particular type of music associated
with Christianity like klezmer (obviously, there is Christian sacred music,
but it too is more representative of the country in which it was written --
Bach's and Mozart's masses in Germany, Tallis motets in England, Poulenc
sacred operas in France, Verdi masses in Italy, etc.). Christianity has
not, to the best of my knowledge, been associated with one particular
culture. Well, obviously in its very earliest days, it was associated with
the Judeans, and then with the Romans, but what was "Roman" could still be
easily distinguished from what was "Christian."
In addition, if I may say so without offending, American Christians seem to
compartmentalize their religion a bit more than many Jews do. It is
possible to talk about an observant Christian's lifestyle, possibly even
describe their normal daily schedule without hitting on elements that could
be described as overtly religious, with the exception of church attendence
and saying grace at dinner time. On the other hand, it's impossible to
describe the daily or weekly schedule of an observant Jew without hitting on
a myriad of things that are overtly religious, such as attending minyan,
specific prayers at prescribed parts of the day, rituals for eating, etc.
(and of course the big ones, such as Sabbath observance). Now, granted,
certainly not all Jews are that observant, but my point is simply that it's
very difficult to distinguish between Jewish religious practice and Jewish
culture.
So, it is a tad unnerving when someone says they are anti-Jewish *or*
anti-Judaism. Even though the two may have different meanings, throughout
history a lot of people haven't bothered to distinguish between people and
religion.
I agree with Pastor Franks position where he alludes that we prefer that
modern-day Israel be a Christian country instead of a country that
promotes a
religion that is opposed to Christ.
Understood. Christianity prefers that every country be a Christian country.
These days, it pursues that agenda in a way that is socially and (generally)
morally acceptable -- i.e. by rhetorical persuasion, rather than force.
Fine. I personally would prefer to see Israel remain Jewish (and believe it
will) if for no other reason than that of religious diversity, but you're
free to try. On the other hand, in days past it has not always pursued its
agenda in ways that could be considered moral by any stretch of the
imagination, so you will, I'm sure, forgive non-Christians, and especially
Jews, if they find Christian evangelical zeal occasionally nerve-wracking.
It reminds me of a particularly poignant exchange I once read of, recorded
by a Baptist minister, Charles Kimball. (I'm going from memory here, so
this is not word-for-word accurate.) He and a well-known rabbi were going
to see the President on behalf of an ecumenical commission. I don't
remember what their purpose was -- I think it had something to do with a
combined Christian-Jewish-Muslim effort on behalf of the poor. After coming
out of the office, the rabbi cleared his throat and said to Kimball, "I'm
very glad we're doing this, Charles. We're making progress and I think our
two faiths working together is really making a difference. But I have to
admit to this you, to get it off my chest -- sometimes it makes me nervous.
It's difficult for us to trust a Christian church. Sometimes 1500 years of
Christian love is almost more than we can bear."
So, there it is. I think that in general, these two monotheisms are making
progress in understanding each other. Hopefully, Islam, Judaism, and
Christianity will one day acheive a more neighborly (in the Biblical sense)
understanding of one another.
Warm regards,
Jessica
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| User: "Caiaphas" |
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| Title: Re: 2Cor:3:6 = WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give???? |
25 Jul 2003 04:47:15 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:_4cUa.12135$SD2.3316@nntp-post.primus.ca...
"Caiaphas" <Caiaphas66@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1CZTa.519$V_4.20339@eagle.america.net...
"Pastor Frank" <pfrank@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:X8RTa.8913$m22.706@nntp-post.primus.ca...
A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of
'crazies'
on
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