"Midwinter" <midw688@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bgr63d$1mj$1@titan.btinternet.com...

On 05 Aug 2003, Chris Devol had this to say:

<snip irrelevant quibbling>

Very sensible. Remove the point of the thread and you will not feel
obliged to defend your point of view.

My general practice is to try and indicate that I've snipped something,

I believe that is more honest than your own (and many others') technique

snipping and not mentioning that you have done so.

People ought to be able to

The Lord indeed destroys the unfaithful, and they deserve it. The
unfaithful are a destructive nuisance in the world.

While the faithful, or those who call themselves faithful, have been
nothing but a benefit and a blessing, is that it?

Correct. The presence of the faithful, and those who are to become

the only reason that God does not destroy the world right now.

Those who have marched
through foreign lands butchering and enslaving the locals in the name of
Christ...

Falsehood 1) you insinuate that everyone who claims some connection with

is necessarily one of the "faithful". That is the result of intellectual
laziness. You can't be bothered with the hard thinking required to make

judgments, so you parrot a standard generalization of the type commonly

the anti-Christian rantings of all ages.

Who have swept through the "Holy Lands" on crusade after
crusade, trying to wipe out cultures that did not conform to their own,
though their God was (and is) the same?

Falsehood 2) you claim that all "gods" are the same God and all "cultures"

of equal value. That is also the result of mental sloth.

Who even now dedicate themselves
to the exclusion and vilification of anyone who does not conform? Those
who can speak the words, "kill them all, God will know His own", and

no unease?

Continuation of falsehood 1)

Religion has provided a great many benefits to society, but do not fool
yourself that it has brought no evil.

Falsehood 3) you broaden the subject, changing "Biblical Christianity"

"religion", as if they are synonyms, so that when you find fault with

it appears to condemn "Biblical Christianity".

Consider Kramer and Sprenger,
Tomas de Torquemada, the Inquisition in general (which, I was surprised
to discover, lingers on in the Vatican under the guise of "the
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" - old news to some,

to name but a few.

Falsehood 3a) where you now change "religion" into "Romanism"

To say that the unfaithful are a destructive nuisance in the world
implies that the faithful never are.

It doesn't "imply" that, but that it true nevertheless. The faithful are

destructivce nuisance in the world. On the contrary, they are its salt,

and sweetness.

Obviously destructive nuisance
comes from both camps. Perhaps better to say that PEOPLE are a
destructive nuisance - in some cases.

Falsehood 4) you insinuate that "faith" and "faithlessness" are

same, since according to you they produce the same results in the world.

is, again, the result of your mental laziness.

Have you really considered how much moral teachings of "love of
neighbor", etc., would be worth if there was no penalty for not
following them?

If there was no penalty for not loving your neighbour? They would be
worth just as much. Do you love only because you believe there is a
penalty for not doing so? Or because it brings you happiness to do so?

Falsehood 5) you insinuate that acting for personal happiness is somehow
"nobler" and "less opportunistic" than acting out of fear of punishment.
However, the fact is that we ought to love our neighbors because it makes

happy, not because it makes us happy. In fact, loving our neighbor more

brings personal misery than personal happiness, because our neighbors are
generally unsaved, and do not love us in return. But again, your

laziness has overcome your reason.

The truth is that the Lord has been merciful and patient almost to a
fault. But he is just, and will not let sin go unpunished. And it is
right and good that he should be so.

Indeed. Because GOD has every right to punish sins against Him - if

by virtue of the fact that He is considerably more powerful than us.
That is, after all, the basic rule of all nature. But because God has
the right to do this does not necessarily mean that YOU have the right

do this. He can judge, because He has the wisdom to do so. We can only
make guesses as to what He wants or what He thinks - and yet so many of
us act as though He has personally deputised us to make His judgements
for Him.

Falsehood 6) you insinuate that God has the right to punish sins, as long

doesn't use people to act as his executioners. By extension, you are

to remove the ability of God to act through people at all. You fail to
distinguish between the sin of acting out of one's own judgment and the

of acting on God's orders.

He has not. He has all the time in the world to watch us and
judge us. Remember, HIS world is beyond mere mortal time, and yet we
insist that we must hurry sinners along to meet Him by 'praying for

death'. He will take them when He is good and ready, judge them
according to His own will (He knows the Big Picture and we do not) and

have no right to tell Him what to do.

Falsehood 7) the standard "no one really knows God's will, therefore, no

should do anything God says, because it might not really be God saying it"
Mental indolence again. You don't want to make any effort at finding out

will, so you dismiss all discussion of it as mere human speculation.

Falsehood 8) the standard "straw man". No one is "telling God what to do".

is telling us what to do.

However, you have adopted a faulty morality, designed by the liar and
murderer Satan, and imagine that you can require God to follow it.

I require nothing of your God, as He requires nothing of me.

Falsehood 9) the standard "your God, not my God" cliche. You insinuate

is only an effect of mental processes, so that he differs from person to

You know otherwise, so this is a plain lie.

Falsehood 10) since you know that it is not a question of "my God", your

that he requires nothing of you is also false. At the final judgment, THE

will require a full account of everything you have ever said, thought and

And you will be found guilty of hundreds of thousands of sins. You're

yourself.

Your position shifts back and forth. When you are accusing God, you
insinuate that humans are basically "good" and don't deserve to be
punished for their sins. But when you are accusing Paul, you claim
that humans can't be trusted. Your whole scheme is broken, and you
yourself are bent. You have been lied to by the original liar, and you
have eagerly embraced his lies.

I accuse God of nothing. I do not know God, and have no means of

to know God. That does not matter.

Falsehood 11) You do nothing but accuse God. You pretend that it is
"hypocritical people" that you are accusing, but since you have denied the
ability of God to ever act through people, you are in effect saying that

that everyone thinks is God is not really God. You thus accuse God of

of not being able to make himself known in any practical way, so that

communicate with him and take instruction from him. Your tactics are

obvious: you're afraid to come right out and blaspheme God, so you

blaspheme his effects.

Falsehood 12) You do not have a saving relationship with God, but that

mean you do not "know" him. You do know that he exists, and that there

a time when he will judge you for your thoughts, words, and deeds. You

told how to "get to know him" in a saving relationship, you simply don't

get to know him, because you hate him for being able to judge you.

It does matter.

<snip...12 lies is enough>

My general practice is to try and indicate that I've snipped
something, and why. I believe that is more honest than your own (and
many others') technique of snipping and not mentioning that you have
done so. People ought to be able to know when a post has been
censored.

Those who have marched
through foreign lands butchering and enslaving the locals in the name
of Christ...

Falsehood 1) you insinuate that everyone who claims some connection
with Christ is necessarily one of the "faithful".

Falsehood 2) you claim that all "gods" are the same God and all
"cultures" are of equal value. That is also the result of mental
sloth.

Who even now dedicate themselves
to the exclusion and vilification of anyone who does not conform?
Those who can speak the words, "kill them all, God will know His
own", and feel no unease?

Continuation of falsehood 1)

Religion has provided a great many benefits to society, but do not
fool yourself that it has brought no evil.

Falsehood 3) you broaden the subject, changing "Biblical Christianity"
into "religion", as if they are synonyms, so that when you find fault
with "religion" it appears to condemn "Biblical Christianity".

Consider Kramer and Sprenger,
Tomas de Torquemada, the Inquisition in general (which, I was
surprised to discover, lingers on in the Vatican under the guise of
"the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" - old news to some,
perhaps), to name but a few.

Falsehood 3a) where you now change "religion" into "Romanism"

It doesn't "imply" that, but that it true nevertheless. The faithful
are never a destructivce nuisance in the world. On the contrary, they
are its salt, light, and sweetness.

Falsehood 4) you insinuate that "faith" and "faithlessness" are
essentially the same, since according to you they produce the same
results in the world. This is, again, the result of your mental
laziness.

Falsehood 5) you insinuate that acting for personal happiness is
somehow "nobler" and "less opportunistic" than acting out of fear of
punishment. However, the fact is that we ought to love our neighbors
because it makes God happy, not because it makes us happy.

Falsehood 6) you insinuate that God has the right to punish sins, as
long as he doesn't use people to act as his executioners. By
extension, you are attempting to remove the ability of God to act
through people at all. You fail to distinguish between the sin of
acting out of one's own judgment and the virtue of acting on God's
orders.

Falsehood 7) the standard "no one really knows God's will, therefore,
no one should do anything God says, because it might not really be God
saying it" Mental indolence again. You don't want to make any effort
at finding out God's will, so you dismiss all discussion of it as mere
human speculation.

Falsehood 8) the standard "straw man". No one is "telling God what to
do". God is telling us what to do.

I require nothing of your God, as He requires nothing of me.

Falsehood 9) the standard "your God, not my God" cliche. You insinuate
that God is only an effect of mental processes, so that he differs
from person to person. You know otherwise, so this is a plain lie.

Falsehood 10) since you know that it is not a question of "my God",
your claim that he requires nothing of you is also false.

At the final
judgment, THE God will require a full account of everything you have
ever said, thought and done. And you will be found guilty of hundreds
of thousands of sins. You're kidding yourself.

Falsehood 11) You do nothing but accuse God. You pretend that it is
"hypocritical people" that you are accusing, but since you have denied
the ability of God to ever act through people, you are in effect
saying that the God that everyone thinks is God is not really God. You
thus accuse God of impotence, of not being able to make himself known
in any practical way, so that people can communicate with him and take
instruction from him.

Your tactics are rather obvious: you're afraid
to come right out and blaspheme God, so you indirectly blaspheme his
effects.

Falsehood 12) You do not have a saving relationship with God, but that
does not mean you do not "know" him. You do know that he exists, and
that there will come a time when he will judge you for your thoughts,
words, and deeds. You have been told how to "get to know him" in a
saving relationship, you simply don't want to get to know him, because
you hate him for being able to judge you.

It does matter.