checker@flapper.net wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:57:02 -0500, James <bireda@peoplepc.com> wrote:

Glenn <gamcclary@spiritone.com>

Re: The Holy Spirit is a Person: Scriptural Proof

Carl wrote:

The following is a brief article from ...

<who ever>

I notice, Carl, that you can not quote scripture which describes,
defines or identifies the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God as a
person other than God, or as a persona of a triune being.

I notice, too, that you seem to have no mind of your own, and can
only post long articles written by men you worship.

Glenn
His witness

Hello,

Yes, the Trinity doctrine comes from men hundreds of years after the
Bible was written. It is not found in the Bible.

At least not by people who don't know the Bible.

The Bible DOES SAY
The Father is God
Jesus is God
and
the Holy Ghost is God
and it also says THERE IS ONLY ONE REAL GOD ANYWHERE (Isa 43:10)

Trinity supporters frequently use such phrases as "God the Son". I
challenge anyone to find that same exact phrase anywhere in the
Bible. You won't find it, because it doesn't exist.

Neither do theocracy, theocratic government, kingdom hall, or a bunch
of others. You are using a strawman argument here.

However, the Bible does use that phrase in the reverse order, which
is the only way it uses it. It says the "Son of God". For example, Lu
1:35,

"The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon
you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that
reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."" (NASB)

The BIBLE tells us that Jesus can't be God, because Jesus was created
by God and thus had a beginning, but God has always existed:

-- God had no beginning: Ps 90:2,

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and
the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (NIV)

--Jesus had a beginning: Col 1:15,

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation." (NASB)

Except for the fact that He did not. "firstborn" was a position of
rank, NOT of birth order. Esau was born first, Jacob was the
firstborn, born AFTER Esau, but holding the birthright.

Jesus existed in the beginning:
John 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
NASB

John 1:14-15

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His
glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace
and truth.
NASB

There is no question that it is Jesus who became flesh and dwelt among
us, and verses 1 and 2 say HE WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING. Verse 3
says something important too.

John 1:3
3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came
into being that has come into being.
NASB

IF Jesus was (as your religion tells you) a created being, THEN HE
MUST HAVE CREATED HIMSELF, or that verse is a lie.

I'll believe the Bible. You can believe your religion if you want to.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, the Bible does not teach that the Holy
Spirit it is a real person, or any part of a triad God. The Bible
words for "spirit" come from "ruach" (Hebrew) and "pneuma" (Greek).
One of the definitions of "pneuma" is:

"a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze". (Strong's
Concordance)

Thus it is 'a force in motion' like a breeze etc.

Nice false conclusion. The trouble is that it does NOT TAKE IN THE
WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD:

Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as a PERSON, using PERSONAL
PRONOUNS:
John 14:16-18
16 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom
the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him,
but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
NASB

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My
name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
that I said to you.
NASB

"He." "Him" Personal pronouns. Wind is not a he or him.

1 Cor 2:10-13
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit
searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men
knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in
him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of
God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the
Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to
us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human
wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual
thoughts with spiritual words.
NASB

He. Him. The Holy Spirit teaches. Wind does not teach. Thoughts.
Wind has no thoughts.

1 Cor 12:11
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to
each one individually just as He wills.
NASB

Wind has no will. But the Holy Spirit does.

HE (a Personal being) teaches, testifies, thinks, has a will. HE is a
"Person," not just a blast of hot air!

Acts 5:1-4
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a
possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also
being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the
apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the
land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after
it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived
this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
NKJV

You have lied to the Holy Spirit (verse 3). . .you have lied to GOD
(verse 4). Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. . . the Holy
Spirit IS GOD.

You need to follow the WHOLE counsel of God, not just a proof-text
here and there.

And based on the context etc, it is in this way that the Scriptures
apply God's Holy Spirit. It is the all-powerful moving force that He
has to accomplish His will, whether it is bringing about creation, or
fulfilling prophecies, etc..

Pure nonsense! See the above evidence to the contrary. If you need
more, I'll happily provide it.

Thus the Bible does not give the Holy Spirit a personal name. God's
name translated into English is "Jehovah". (or as some prefer, its
transliterated form; "Yahweh".

There are not letters in the Hebrew language to transliterate it into
"Jehovah." ANY Rabbi will laugh at you if you ask him if God's real
name is "Jehovah." Josephus reported hearing through the tent wall,
the sounds of the word "Yahweh" being spoken in the Holy of Holies.

Yahweh is the correct Name of the Father. jws have it wrong. They
use an English word we SUBSTITUTE for the word "Yahweh." They do NOT
use the Name of God.

See Ps 83:18, KJV) God's son's name is
"Jesus". (Mt 1:21) If the Holy Spirit was really a person, why no
personal name like the other two?

That is not my decision to make. God obviously made it; you have to
live with it.

That is because it isn't a person, but just as the original Hebrew
and Greek words show, it is a FORCE for accomplishing God's will.
(God must use some kind of 'energy' to do all these things. And that
'energy' is called His "Holy Spirit".)

Try again. "Energy" does not think, speak, feel emotions, have a will,
etc. Your theory is just plain wrong.

Also, personification of words, like the Holy Spirit, does not
automatically make it a person. For example, wisdom is personified at
Mt 11:19. Does that make "wisdom" a person? No, and neither does
personification of the Holy Spirit make it a person. (John 14:16;
15:26; 16:7)

Matt 11:19
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a
gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!'
Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
NASB

Wisdom is never spoken of as thinking, speakng, feeling emotions,
having a will, teaching, etc etc as the Holy Ghost is. Sure, some
things are spoken of in such "personified" terms, but not so
consistantly, nor as having such characteristics. Your religion has
lied to you, James.

Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

In other words, you hit and run, huh? It figures

Hello,

The email address that you gave me when you sent your email to me,
didn't work. (checker@flapper.net <checker@flapper.net>)

Thus I am posting my response to your email in the posts that you
originally got my posting from.

I stand by what the Bible teaches. As I said above, I challenged
anyone to find the words "God the Son" in the Bible. Those words are
used all the time by Trinity supporters AS IF the Bible teaches them.
But they are not in the Bible. Neither is the word "Trinity". That
doctrine comes from outside of the Bible, not from inside it. But
don't just take my word for it. Notice the New Encyclopædia
Britannica,

"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears
in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to
contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord
our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed
gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . .
By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took
substantially the form it has maintained ever since." (1976,
Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.)

Concerning Col 1:15 referring to a position of rank and not of birth
order, take a look at the context. Verses 15 and 16 together:

"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or
authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (NIV)

The meaning of "firstborn" here is definitely being applied to birth
order. Verse 16 talks about the other 'births' or things created.
Jesus was the first, then through him the rest of creation came into
existence.

Concerning Joh 1:1, notice carefully the Greek words used there. In
Greek, that passage contains the word "god" [theos] twice. The first
time it has the definite article "the" before it, the second time it
does not. Thus there is a difference between the meaning of the first
"god" [theos] and the second "god" [theos]. And a good translation
should show that difference.

According to the Bible translator William Barclay, he says that when a
Greek noun doesn't have the definite article in front of it, it
becomes a description (like an adjective) rather than an identity
(like a noun). And the second "theos" [god] has no definite article
preceding it.

The Catholic Bible, New American Bible (NAB), says in a footnote on
John 1:1,

"Was God:lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies
predication rather than identification".

That is why some other Bible translations translate Joh 1:1 this way:

"the Logos was divine." (MO);
"the Word was divine." (AT; SD);
"a god was the Word." (interlinear ED) ;
"the Word was a god" (NTIV).
"the Word was a god." (NWT)
"The Word was deity." (Simple English)

A good translation should show the grammatical distinction. I suggest
you seek out one to improve your accuracy.

There is no question that it is Jesus who became flesh and dwelt among
us, and verses 1 and 2 say HE WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING.

Yes, as Joh 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word". Thus since God
had no "beginning" but always was, then the Word cannot be God, since
the Word had a "beginning".

IF Jesus was (as your religion tells you) a created being, THEN HE
MUST HAVE CREATED HIMSELF, or that verse is a lie.

My religion is not the source statement that Jesus was a created
being, the Bible is. (again see Col 1:15)

No, Jesus did not create Himself. As the Bible states, God created all
things. (Ge 1:1) Thus God created Jesus. (Col 1:15)

But after Jesus was created, the Bible tells us that God let Jesus
assist Him in some way, with the rest of creation. (just like a loving
human father might let his son help him with some project. It is still
the father's project, but the son assists)

He. Him. The Holy Spirit teaches. Wind does not teach. Thoughts.
Wind has no thoughts.

Look up the Hebrew and Greek words for "spirit" and you will see that
they have to do with a force in motion, not a person. And that is how
the Bible uses them.

True, the wind has no thoughts. But as pointed out last time,
personification of a thing doesn't make it a person. Does water have
thoughts? Does blood? If personification of something, like the Holy
Spirit, makes it a person, then so must "water" and "blood" be persons
with thoughts. 1 Jo 5:6-8,

"6. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did
not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit
who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7. For there are three that testify:
8. the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in
agreement. "
(NIV)

Also, as a surprise to many, the teaching that the Holy Spirit was a
'person' wasn't until the 4th century. (long after the Bible was
written) This Bible encyclopedia says,

" Not until the fourth century C.E. did the teaching that the holy
spirit was a person and part of the "Godhead" become official church
dogma. Early church "fathers" did not so teach; Justin Martyr of the
second century C.E. taught that the holy spirit was an 'influence or
mode of operation of the Deity'; Hippolytus likewise ascribed no
personality to the holy spirit. The Scriptures themselves unite to
show that God's holy spirit is not a person but is God's active force
by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will." (Insight
On The Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 1019.)

There are not letters in the Hebrew language to transliterate it into
"Jehovah." ANY Rabbi will laugh at you if you ask him if God's real
name is "Jehovah." Josephus reported hearing through the tent wall,
the sounds of the word "Yahweh" being spoken in the Holy of Holies.

Yahweh is the correct Name of the Father. jws have it wrong. They
use an English word we SUBSTITUTE for the word "Yahweh." They do NOT
use the Name of God.

Actually if you did your homework, you would find that no one knows
the exact correct spelling of the personal name of God. Some believe
the transliteration Yahweh might be close, but it is still only an
educated guess. That is because the Hebrew Tetragrammaton found in the
Scriptures has no vowels.

YHWH is an attempted TRANSLITERATION (letter for letter) into English
of the divine name found in the oldest Bible manuscripts thousands of
times. In the OT it is found around 7000 times, and is found in the
form of four Hebrew letters which as mentioned above is called the
Tetragrammaton. To repeat, since there were no vowels in the Hebrew
writings, all we know is the consonants. In English the Hebrew letters
transliterate popularly as YHWH. (but even this is not 100% agreed
upon. Some prefer YHVH or JHVH) You will also get variations of the
divine name when you try to add vowels, such as Yahweh, or Yehwah,
etc.

As for TRANSLATIONS, in English, a popular latinized form (with vowels
included) is "Jehovah". (see Ps 83:18 KJV) In Italian it is "Geova",
in Fijan "Jiova", in Danish "Jehova", etc.

But what is interesting today is that most modern Bibles have
COMPLETELY removed God's divine name, even in its raw form of the four
Hebrew letters (the Tetragrammaton), from their Bibles. Yet many of
those Bibles do translate the NAME of false gods, such as "Dagon" and
"Baal", etc. Are they trying to tell us something? Has your favorite
Bible translation removed God's personal name from most of its
thousands of occurrences? If so, perhaps you need to upgrade to a more
accurate translation.

At any rate, there is a modern Bible, the New World Translation (NWT),
which has restored the divine name to all of its original occurrences.
(they don't believe in tampering with the Holy Scriptures like many
translations do. see Re 22:18,19)

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

In other words, you hit and run, huh? It figures

You are in error with your assumption. Actually, it is for medical
reasons that I can't, and don't, follow long ng threads.