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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Michael Christ"
Date:	08 Dec 2007 05:50:43 AM
Object:	Religious Organisations

The Lord's been showing me more of late about the state of the religious
organisations.
None of them are His of course. Though anyone with any discernment knows
that.
Even the ones who do not believe that live with the little nag in the heart
deep down which testifies to the fact that things are not as they should be.
I hear the dissatisfaction all the time from the toilet cleaner to the
pulpit. The question is always the same: Why? 'Why, if we are the body of
Christ, why the powerlessness to overcome?' Of course, the overcoming is
not from without, but from within. That is the coal-face in which to meet
the true reality of a man's relationship with God. To surrender all, or not
to.
Anyway, my heart is heavy, as it always has been, for those poor souls
running to church every Sunday with all those works thinking that they are
'doing good' and where
salvation is a binding of oneself to religious ethics and standards and
morals. All the spiritual wickedness that comes out of pulpits is worse
than anything you can imagine in the so-called 'secular world'. Leonard
Ravenhill, a famous preacher [deceased] once said, if Jesus was to come back
now He would start by cleansing the pulpit.
I wait on the Lord for a time when He will do something about it. Not to
overrate Leonard Ravenhill but he also said, "The world is not waiting for
another definition of Christianity but a demonstration of Christianity." I
have to agree, and so would you if you choose to be honest.
I have been listening to the author John Ethredge of 'Wild at Heart' fame on
podcast through the itunes store on 'The Sacred Romance' (10 sessions)...
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=260843816
I thought it was pretty good and worth a listen. He seems to have
'detected' that many are far removed from the life they should and really
want to be living because they have made their hearts captive to the
intellect/ways of the world, especially within the religious organisations.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	22 Dec 2007 02:16:59 AM

Okay Vera, need you as open as you can be.
Vera wrote:

Michael, do you not think you are using a broad brush, and do not take
into account that the church consists of individuals?

There are lots of individuals within the church organisations who seek God.
God has called them in one way or another.
That doesn't make an organisation that call themselves the church, the
'Church'. Goodness me, there are so many organisations all differing in
their opinions and arguing about doctrine; the signs are there. There is
the Christian City Church, the Baptist, and the Anglican, and Uniting
Church, and the Seventh Day Adventist churches in my little town. While
they all confess Jesus as Lord and accept one another on the surface,
underneath individually they think they are more right and the others are
off track. Is the house of the Lord divided? These newsgroups are like the
churches in my town, only there is more honesty because people can really
say what they want to say from behind a computer screen. Do you think this
will be heaven? There is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven
y'know. It will be a marriage supper/celebration. In other words, marriage
(baptism) into Christ is here and now. I don't see the Baptists and
Anglicans for instance in a marriage, do you? I'd be filing for divorce if
I was in that marriage.
Vera wrote:

There are two (maybe more, but I do t want to take them into account)
possible explanations of how you see things...
This is the first version...

You really believe that people have to be perfect already, and could
otherwise not come to God, or would not be accepted by Him.

Well that one definitely isn't it. :-).
Vera wrote:

Well, this is the most stupid view, because it would make you a sectarian
or a disturbed, but it is surely not the Christian view. It is a religion
that would have to stand alone, and you would have to stand alone and make
yourself the centre of this universe, because you will never find anyone
else who is as perfect as you think you are yourself... But you are
deceiving yourself and will wake up one day.
This is the version no. 2 in which I put all my hope ...
You believe we become perfect by the blood of Jesus (not Michael) Christ
alone, if we believe in Him. Not everyone in the churches believe this.

As I discussed before, the blood of Jesus sets everyone free of the
punishment deserved for our sin. No debt to pay now. Remember the gates
are open, or if you prefer, the veil of the temple was rent in twain. Now
anyone has access and privilege to march boldly into the throne room of
grace and make their petitions to God. The blood of Jesus was shed for the
whole world, whether they wanted Him to or not, He did. Rom 5:8: 'But God
commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us.' So...
The blood of Jesus therefore frees everyone in the whole world. In other
words, God *will not* automatically say no I do not accept you because of
the filth of sin on you; He *will not* turn His face away now. It frees a
person to go to Him personally and be heard, it does not mystically make a
person perfect. Why? Because the blood of Jesus does not decide for you to
offer Him your life and mean it...which is the thing that He earnestly
desires. Needless to say, if a person does not give Him what He *deserves*,
well that's it then, the blood of Jesus is wiped under foot.
Vera wrote:

I have heard that only 20 per cent of the German evangelical pastors
really believe in the resurrection and in Jesus Christ.

Doesn't that really strike you? If only 20 percent of the Pastors for all
intents and purposes spend their lives looking to the things of God, what of
the congregations who are busy with the things of this world like work and
shopping? Perhaps then you can understand what I am saying. There are even
fewer in the religious organisations than 20% who are prepared to Romans
12:1 or Matt 16:25.
Vera wrote:

This given, there are many people in the churches who will be rejected
("Pastor" Dave would be rejected for his way how he thinks of African
starving children, for example, and then for all his heresy and
lovelessness, lies and deceit - no chance for him...). It is not enough to
give a lip confession to God, but as you say, it is important to keep His
Commandments, namely to love Him with all your heart and all you have, and
your neighbour as yourself. Yet God knows that we cannot become perfect
here on earth to be justified.

Vera, since you say that you are not perfect, what are you saying? Just
think about what you are saying. You are an imperfect person deciding what
is perfect and what is not, what is possible and what is not possible.
Please, with respect, think about that.
God wants you to understand this. I pray for revelation. It is a mystery
though, so please be open.
If a person keeps those 2 commandments, then they are perfect in God's eyes.
Please hold back till you finish reading this section and let me explain
this; it is not up to the person to keep those commandments, it is up to God
to make it happen. All the glory is His, and not of the works of man.
How is this so?
Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first
to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their
dead.
Now that seems a noble and right thing to do doesn't it, to take care of
your parents, especially in light of one of the 10 commandments at the time
to honour your father and your mother??!! Imagine the conflict in the mind.
Talk about up front too, Jesus just called those parents dead men to boot.
Moving on, He said, "Follow Me."
The only responsibility a person has is to give their life to God. He will
show how/the way if the person really really wants to. And that narrow road
to walk, that 'Pilgrims progress' if you will, is when faith hits the ground
running because such a course to walk is *not bound* to the perceptions of
the human mind of what is right and wrong, and the vanity of striving to do
good (as you can see above). On the contrary it challenges all those
preconceived ideas implanted from the previous self-filled/ruled life, and
definitely contrary to religious doctrine.
We need to take a jump here...
Now if a person does give their life to Him, once it is truly His (with God
it is possible), He owns it, and controls it, Jesus is Lord, and He decides
what is going to happen and what is not. This is where I wanted to take
you. Remember, it is not up to an individual to keep the commandments, it
is up to God to *form them in a person* because that person's life is in His
control. Just like He formed in the twelve (minus 1 plus 1) the pillars in
His Church.
Now, look at this:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as
thyself.
Look at those 2 words 'Thou shalt'. They are prophetic!! In other words,
if you come to me and offer up your body as a living sacrifice, lose your
life to me, put all your life in my hands, then...............'Thou
shalt...................', I the Lord will do this thing.
You see, nothing of ourselves but through Him a person is more than a
conqueror. But surely surely surely, you must walk away from this world and
lose your life to Him. Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and
he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
You see how there is no compromise, yet those religious organisations are
founded on and thrive on compromise. Its there in your church tomorrow if
you look. The controlling bodies (Eph 6:12) of these organisations (they
have many hats) circumvent the earth to make new converts to their religions
and live off them by imposing old testament laws of tithing and offerings
now on top of that; new converts who genuinely seek after God, but God will
surely have His way and in the end He will not lose one wheat, not one
sheep.
My desire is to be a part of that but what can I do but wait on the Lord.
Vera wrote:

That is why He sent Jesus to take our sins onto Him. He was the *only*
person on earth that was blameless, God's lamb.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit
together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he
might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us
through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man
should boast. (Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV)
Then there are surely people all over this world who can become believers
and who are no church members. Being a church member is not necessary to
belong to God, but when people become believers, they have the longing to
share their faith with others, and to praise God together with others and
pray to him. So you might have believers and unbelievers in the churches,
which does not matter much...

Okay.
Vera wrote:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and
went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit,
then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and
said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence
then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The
servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But
he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat
with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of
harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and
bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(Matthew 13:25-30 KJV)
So we have wheat and tares in the churches, too... but you can only see
the tares, which is simply wrong. (And tares are not necessarily false
teachers...)

Who is wheat, who is tare, that is for God to decide. I am willing to
believe that wheat and tares look very very similar when they are growing.
Someone might consider someone else a real evil person but God could well be
doing all sorts of things in that person's life to refine them into exactly
what He wants. Look at the motley crew that He picked up for the disciples.
But He sees deeper than we see and sees further than we see. A person as
they are today may well not be as they are tomorrow. Therefore one has to
be very careful when calling anyone evil, especially when one declares that
they are a sinner as well. Which sinner therefore is not a sinner, isn't
both willful? Such a person ought to be very careful because the Lord
misses nothing.
Vera wrote:

But you are right on this - God can only use perfect people. Sin is what
separates us from God - so we are still separated, but not in Spirit, but
our bodies are. We are perfect for God already, because we belong to Him.
One day we will see Him face to face, though, when Jesus comes back. Until
then we will continue to sin - more or less - and add to the load He had
on His shoulders on Calvary for us.

Is that it then Vera, the best we can hope for? Does that satisfy in light
of the fact that with God all things are possible? Doesn't something inside
you tell you that there must be more? Thou are meant for much more than
this. I am hopeful that 'Thou shalt' do much more than continue to sin -
more or less - and 'load up' the Lord, or I wouldn't be writing what I am
writing.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	22 Dec 2007 03:38:46 AM

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mphvu6ks7p18b@corp.supernews.com...
[snip]

Is the house of the Lord divided?

Yes.
Seven ways.
Just like Jesus said.

These newsgroups are like the
churches in my town, only there is more honesty because people can really
say what they want to say from behind a computer screen. Do you think
this
will be heaven? There is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven
y'know. It will be a marriage supper/celebration. In other words,
marriage
(baptism) into Christ is here and now. I don't see the Baptists and
Anglicans for instance in a marriage, do you? I'd be filing for divorce
if
I was in that marriage.

Ah, most Baptists are "Ephesian" in nature, but some have "Sardinian"
overtones as they have adopted the Dispensationalist/modernist positions.
The Anglicans/Episcopalians/CoE are Reformationists, i.e. "Thyatiran" in
nature.
Now, as for the Seventh Day Adventists, that's strictly a cultic offshoot of
the Baptists (as they were originally called "the Seventh Day Adventists
Baptist Convention) who have fallen whole-hog into both Ephesian legalism
and Sardinian Dispensationalism.
If the Uniting Church is the one I found on the web, it's some ecumenical
combine of Congregationalists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, which makes
for one hell of a mongrel mix. (I, for one, would like to know how they
reconciled Wesley Methodism with Calvin Presbyterianism when they taught
exactly the opposite doctrines.) Frankly, it smacks of being Laodicean in
that it actually DEFENDS the heathen religions of the Aborigines, and
supports homosexuals. Hence, its doctrines are NOT drawn from Christianity,
but political correctness, thus, it has already moved towards becoming
completely "Babylonian" (i.e. "eclectic") in nature.
This is the problem with most ecumenical movements--instead of being founded
on the greatest common denominator--the establishment of truth--they are
founded on the least common denominator, i.e. "to hell with truth, let's
just get along."
Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof
are the ways of death.
[snip]
Ike
.

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	22 Dec 2007 05:40:09 AM

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:GW4bj.4416$_o6.1148@trndny06...

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mphvu6ks7p18b@corp.supernews.com...

[snip]

Is the house of the Lord divided?

Yes.

Seven ways.

Just like Jesus said.

Ah, most Baptists are "Ephesian" in nature, but some have "Sardinian"
overtones as they have adopted the Dispensationalist/modernist positions.

The Anglicans/Episcopalians/CoE are Reformationists, i.e. "Thyatiran" in
nature.

Now, as for the Seventh Day Adventists, that's strictly a cultic offshoot
of the Baptists (as they were originally called "the Seventh Day
Adventists Baptist Convention) who have fallen whole-hog into both
Ephesian legalism and Sardinian Dispensationalism.

If the Uniting Church is the one I found on the web, it's some ecumenical
combine of Congregationalists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, which makes
for one hell of a mongrel mix. (I, for one, would like to know how they
reconciled Wesley Methodism with Calvin Presbyterianism when they taught
exactly the opposite doctrines.) Frankly, it smacks of being Laodicean in
that it actually DEFENDS the heathen religions of the Aborigines, and
supports homosexuals. Hence, its doctrines are NOT drawn from
Christianity, but political correctness, thus, it has already moved
towards becoming completely "Babylonian" (i.e. "eclectic") in nature.
This is the problem with most ecumenical movements--instead of being
founded on the greatest common denominator--the establishment of
truth--they are founded on the least common denominator, i.e. "to hell
with truth, let's just get along."

:-).
The words to the seven churches in revelation obviously speak of the desire
of the Lord to gather all unto Him in unity. In those churches He is
drawing those who have an ear. Whoever has an ear to hear the heart of God
and truly follow Him, they are the ones I speak of when I talk about the
true Church. In essence, they are the ones who have heard and are faith
full and are clothed in white. That's non-blotchy. :-).
Job said probably the greatest verses in the whole of Job (well I think so)
because finally a man acknowledges God with his whole heart and really
declares the worthiness of God...
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye
seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Finally He accepted God as God, something that can rescue even the most
ravenous out of the 'dubious origin mixes'. :-).
The point is that it doesn't matter where anybody is, from Job to the most
hypocritical synaguoges of satan, the arm of the Lord is a caring arm and is
able to gather up in His great love and save.
I am really not against anything because all things live and move and have
their being in Him and I trust God to bring all things together for good.
Rather it is what I am for that occupies my time, and thats that every
person should come and kneel before the Lord with all their heart because He
is...worthy.
Ike wrote:

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.

Well what can I say.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	23 Dec 2007 06:11:45 PM

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mptspe1b6j831@corp.supernews.com...

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:GW4bj.4416$_o6.1148@trndny06...

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mphvu6ks7p18b@corp.supernews.com...

[snip]

Is the house of the Lord divided?

Yes.

Seven ways.

Just like Jesus said.

These newsgroups are like the
churches in my town, only there is more honesty because people can
really
say what they want to say from behind a computer screen. Do you think
this
will be heaven? There is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven
y'know. It will be a marriage supper/celebration. In other words,
marriage
(baptism) into Christ is here and now. I don't see the Baptists and
Anglicans for instance in a marriage, do you? I'd be filing for divorce
if
I was in that marriage.

Ah, most Baptists are "Ephesian" in nature, but some have "Sardinian"
overtones as they have adopted the Dispensationalist/modernist positions.

The Anglicans/Episcopalians/CoE are Reformationists, i.e. "Thyatiran" in
nature.

Now, as for the Seventh Day Adventists, that's strictly a cultic offshoot
of the Baptists (as they were originally called "the Seventh Day
Adventists Baptist Convention) who have fallen whole-hog into both
Ephesian legalism and Sardinian Dispensationalism.

If the Uniting Church is the one I found on the web, it's some ecumenical
combine of Congregationalists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, which makes
for one hell of a mongrel mix. (I, for one, would like to know how they
reconciled Wesley Methodism with Calvin Presbyterianism when they taught
exactly the opposite doctrines.) Frankly, it smacks of being Laodicean in
that it actually DEFENDS the heathen religions of the Aborigines, and
supports homosexuals. Hence, its doctrines are NOT drawn from
Christianity, but political correctness, thus, it has already moved
towards becoming completely "Babylonian" (i.e. "eclectic") in nature.

This is the problem with most ecumenical movements--instead of being
founded on the greatest common denominator--the establishment of
truth--they are founded on the least common denominator, i.e. "to hell
with truth, let's just get along."

:-).

The words to the seven churches in revelation obviously speak of the
desire of the Lord to gather all unto Him in unity.

Actually, Michael, they don't. They speak to the fact that Jesus will sort
the churches, as per the parable of the wheat and tares, and the parable of
the sheep and goats.
In like manner, Jesus establishes a grid among the seven churches, from all
praise and no rebuke (Philadelphia) to all rebuke and no praise (Laodicea),
with every other church fitting in that range.

In those churches He is drawing those who have an ear.

Yes, but ONLY those who have an ear to hear. Those who don't "hear" will
find themselves on the wrong side of the isle in the judgment. And thus the
sheep will be separated from the goats.

Whoever has an ear to hear the heart of God and truly follow Him, they
are the ones I speak of when I talk about the true Church.

True church?
The only "true church" will be the one that Jesus establishes after He has
sorted things out, which is the church eternal.
Until then, all the seven churches are works in progress.

In essence, they are the ones who have heard and are faith full and are
clothed in white. That's non-blotchy. :-).

Be careful: In the letter to Sardis, Jesus says that those who are WORTHY
will be (not are) clothed in white raiment. In other words, they will be
given their "unspotted garments" then, when the body of corruption that is
sown is raised in incorruption.
One runs the risk of making themselves out to be "holier than thou" now when
that isn't possible--we are ALL living in the flesh that cannot cease from
sin, and will continue that way as we groan with the creation, awaiting the
redemption.

Job said probably the greatest verses in the whole of Job (well I think
so) because finally a man acknowledges God with his whole heart and really
declares the worthiness of God...

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye
seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Finally He accepted God as God, something that can rescue even the most
ravenous out of the 'dubious origin mixes'. :-).

The point is that it doesn't matter where anybody is, from Job to the most
hypocritical synaguoges of satan, the arm of the Lord is a caring arm and
is able to gather up in His great love and save.

I am really not against anything because all things live and move and have
their being in Him and I trust God to bring all things together for good.
Rather it is what I am for that occupies my time, and thats that every
person should come and kneel before the Lord with all their heart because
He is...worthy.

Job IS a fascinating study as it is a unrecognized prophecy examining the
psychology of Israel in the End of the Age.

Ike wrote:

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end
thereof are the ways of death.

Well what can I say.

All there is to say. :-)
Ike
.

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	23 Dec 2007 07:05:48 PM

Michael Christ wrote:

The words to the seven churches in revelation obviously speak of the
desire of the Lord to gather all unto Him in unity.

Ike wrote:

Actually, Michael, they don't. They speak to the fact that Jesus will sort
the churches, as per the parable of the wheat and tares, and the parable
of the sheep and goats.

In like manner, Jesus establishes a grid among the seven churches, from
all praise and no rebuke (Philadelphia) to all rebuke and no praise
(Laodicea), with every other church fitting in that range.

Yes sure, but I am looking at the heart of the Lord.
Y'know, if they heed what He says.
Michael Christ wrote:

In those churches He is drawing those who have an ear.

Ike wrote:

Yes, but ONLY those who have an ear to hear. Those who don't "hear" will
find themselves on the wrong side of the isle in the judgment. And thus
the sheep will be separated from the goats.

Sure.
Michael Christ wrote:

Whoever has an ear to hear the heart of God and truly follow Him, they
are the ones I speak of when I talk about the true Church.

Ike wrote:

True church?
The only "true church" will be the one that Jesus establishes after He has
sorted things out, which is the church eternal.

Yes, the gathering of the 'ears who have heard', that is what I'm talking
about.
Ike wrote:

Until then, all the seven churches are works in progress.

The Church eternal as you put it is what I focus on.
Michael Christ wrote:

In essence, they are the ones who have heard and are faith full and are
clothed in white. That's non-blotchy. :-).

Ike wrote:

I am talking about the heart.
Ike wrote:

One runs the risk of making themselves out to be "holier than thou" now
when that isn't possible--we are ALL living in the flesh that cannot cease
from sin, and will continue that way as we groan with the creation,
awaiting the redemption.

If a person has a perfect heart towards God that doesn't make them holier
than thou, Ike.
Sardis...
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain that are ready
to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast,
and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a
thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Things which remain that are ready to die...(not physcial death)...
Death (of self) before works can be perfect before God...
Hold fast (faith)...obeying God
Repent...of what you are.
And if an ear to hear in Sardis hears...............and does?
Too many sit on the gonna fence relying on what they should do rather than
getting on and doing it. The suddenness of the Lord's appearing is a
warning to have heeded what He has said and done it. When that which should
be done is done, well another state now has come into being. Few are they
that know it simply because few choose to do as they are told.
No free lunches, or a bit each way.
I am reminded of these verses actually...
(KJV)
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.
And once indoctrinated, reprooved, corrected, instructed? There is a moving
on.
Perfect means perfect, thoroughly means thoroughly, furnished means
furnished, all means all.
Few are they that know it simply because few choose to do as they are told.
Nothing is impossible, nothing.
The Bible is a glory, but there is another glory in the Spirit. From glory
to glory.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr."
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	24 Dec 2007 02:31:27 PM

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mu1fc4g1l02df@corp.supernews.com...

Michael Christ wrote:

The words to the seven churches in revelation obviously speak of the
desire of the Lord to gather all unto Him in unity.

Ike wrote:

Actually, Michael, they don't. They speak to the fact that Jesus will
sort the churches, as per the parable of the wheat and tares, and the
parable of the sheep and goats.

In like manner, Jesus establishes a grid among the seven churches, from
all praise and no rebuke (Philadelphia) to all rebuke and no praise
(Laodicea), with every other church fitting in that range.

Yes sure, but I am looking at the heart of the Lord.

Y'know, if they heed what He says.

Michael Christ wrote:

In those churches He is drawing those who have an ear.

Ike wrote:

Yes, but ONLY those who have an ear to hear. Those who don't "hear" will
find themselves on the wrong side of the isle in the judgment. And thus
the sheep will be separated from the goats.

Sure.

Michael Christ wrote:

Whoever has an ear to hear the heart of God and truly follow Him, they
are the ones I speak of when I talk about the true Church.

Ike wrote:

True church?

The only "true church" will be the one that Jesus establishes after He
has sorted things out, which is the church eternal.

Yes, the gathering of the 'ears who have heard', that is what I'm talking
about.

Ike wrote:

Until then, all the seven churches are works in progress.

The Church eternal as you put it is what I focus on.

Michael Christ wrote:

In essence, they are the ones who have heard and are faith full and
are clothed in white. That's non-blotchy. :-).

Ike wrote:

I am talking about the heart.

Ike wrote:

One runs the risk of making themselves out to be "holier than thou" now
when that isn't possible--we are ALL living in the flesh that cannot
cease from sin, and will continue that way as we groan with the creation,
awaiting the redemption.

If a person has a perfect heart towards God that doesn't make them holier
than thou, Ike.

Sardis...

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain that are ready
to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold
fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee
as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Things which remain that are ready to die...(not physcial death)...

Death (of self) before works can be perfect before God...

Hold fast (faith)...obeying God

Repent...of what you are.

And if an ear to hear in Sardis hears...............and does?

Too many sit on the gonna fence relying on what they should do rather than
getting on and doing it. The suddenness of the Lord's appearing is a
warning to have heeded what He has said and done it. When that which
should be done is done, well another state now has come into being. Few
are they that know it simply because few choose to do as they are told.

No free lunches, or a bit each way.

I am reminded of these verses actually...

(KJV)
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.

And once indoctrinated, reprooved, corrected, instructed? There is a
moving on.

Perfect means perfect, thoroughly means thoroughly, furnished means
furnished, all means all.

Few are they that know it simply because few choose to do as they are
told.

Nothing is impossible, nothing.

The Bible is a glory, but there is another glory in the Spirit. From
glory to glory.

Just checking to make sure we are on the same page.
Merry Christmas
Ike
.

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	24 Dec 2007 03:44:05 PM

"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." <xeickleberrybooks@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zGUbj.4534$we6.187@trndny09...

"Michael Christ" <christianlife@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:13mu1fc4g1l02df@corp.supernews.com...

Michael Christ wrote:

The words to the seven churches in revelation obviously speak of the
desire of the Lord to gather all unto Him in unity.

Ike wrote:

Actually, Michael, they don't. They speak to the fact that Jesus will
sort the churches, as per the parable of the wheat and tares, and the
parable of the sheep and goats.

In like manner, Jesus establishes a grid among the seven churches, from
all praise and no rebuke (Philadelphia) to all rebuke and no praise
(Laodicea), with every other church fitting in that range.

Yes sure, but I am looking at the heart of the Lord.

Y'know, if they heed what He says.

Michael Christ wrote:

In those churches He is drawing those who have an ear.

Ike wrote:

Yes, but ONLY those who have an ear to hear. Those who don't "hear" will
find themselves on the wrong side of the isle in the judgment. And thus
the sheep will be separated from the goats.

Sure.

Michael Christ wrote:

Whoever has an ear to hear the heart of God and truly follow Him,
they are the ones I speak of when I talk about the true Church.

Ike wrote:

True church?

The only "true church" will be the one that Jesus establishes after He
has sorted things out, which is the church eternal.

Yes, the gathering of the 'ears who have heard', that is what I'm talking
about.

Ike wrote:

Until then, all the seven churches are works in progress.

The Church eternal as you put it is what I focus on.

Michael Christ wrote:

In essence, they are the ones who have heard and are faith full and
are clothed in white. That's non-blotchy. :-).

Ike wrote:

I am talking about the heart.

Ike wrote:

One runs the risk of making themselves out to be "holier than thou" now
when that isn't possible--we are ALL living in the flesh that cannot
cease from sin, and will continue that way as we groan with the
creation, awaiting the redemption.

If a person has a perfect heart towards God that doesn't make them holier
than thou, Ike.

Sardis...

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain that are
ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold
fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee
as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Things which remain that are ready to die...(not physcial death)...

Death (of self) before works can be perfect before God...

Hold fast (faith)...obeying God

Repent...of what you are.

And if an ear to hear in Sardis hears...............and does?

Too many sit on the gonna fence relying on what they should do rather
than getting on and doing it. The suddenness of the Lord's appearing is
a warning to have heeded what He has said and done it. When that which
should be done is done, well another state now has come into being. Few
are they that know it simply because few choose to do as they are told.

No free lunches, or a bit each way.

I am reminded of these verses actually...

(KJV)
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto
all good works.

And once indoctrinated, reprooved, corrected, instructed? There is a
moving on.

Perfect means perfect, thoroughly means thoroughly, furnished means
furnished, all means all.

Few are they that know it simply because few choose to do as they are
told.

Nothing is impossible, nothing.

The Bible is a glory, but there is another glory in the Spirit. From
glory to glory.

Just checking to make sure we are on the same page.

Merry Christmas

Ike

Merry Christmas.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: " ::: good news :::"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	23 Dec 2007 02:27:42 PM

In news:13mphvu6ks7p18b@corp.supernews.com,
Michael Christ <christianlife@westnet.com.au> typed:

Okay Vera, need you as open as you can be.

Vera wrote:

Michael, do you not think you are using a broad brush, and do not
take into account that the church consists of individuals?

There are lots of individuals within the church organisations who
seek God. God has called them in one way or another.

That doesn't make an organisation that call themselves the church, the
'Church'. Goodness me, there are so many organisations all differing
in their opinions and arguing about doctrine; the signs are there.
There is the Christian City Church, the Baptist, and the Anglican,
and Uniting Church, and the Seventh Day Adventist churches in my
little town. While they all confess Jesus as Lord and accept one
another on the surface, underneath individually they think they are
more right and the others are off track. Is the house of the Lord
divided? These newsgroups are like the churches in my town, only
there is more honesty because people can really say what they want to
say from behind a computer screen. Do you think this will be heaven?
There is no marrying and giving in marriage in heaven y'know. It
will be a marriage supper/celebration. In other words, marriage
(baptism) into Christ is here and now. I don't see the Baptists and
Anglicans for instance in a marriage, do you? I'd be filing for
divorce if I was in that marriage.

There are surely people who might think they are more right than others
with their doctrine. But I for one do usually not bring the differences
up here. I regard myself to be a Christian in the first instance, and I
do believe that the denomination is of a minor importance and a matter
of personal taste. let me also add that the churches in Australia differ
from those here in Germany. Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals,
Adventists are a minority here. We have the two big churches, the Roman
Catholic Church and the Evangelical National Church. They get their
money from the taxes people pay, so they are not really separated from
the State. But the others are, and their members are usually believers,
because it takes something to "out" yourself as a Christian here and
risk being called a sectarian. We are all regarded like the Jehovah's
Witnesses. So may I invite you to come to my church if you happen to
come along here?

Vera wrote:

There are two (maybe more, but I do t want to take them into account)
possible explanations of how you see things...

This is the first version...

You really believe that people have to be perfect already, and could
otherwise not come to God, or would not be accepted by Him.

Well that one definitely isn't it. :-).

*sigh of relief*

Vera wrote:

This is the version no. 2 in which I put all my hope ...

You believe we become perfect by the blood of Jesus (not Michael)
Christ alone, if we believe in Him. Not everyone in the churches
believe this.

As I discussed before, the blood of Jesus sets everyone free of the
punishment deserved for our sin. No debt to pay now. Remember the
gates are open, or if you prefer, the veil of the temple was rent in
twain. Now anyone has access and privilege to march boldly into the
throne room of grace and make their petitions to God. The blood of
Jesus was shed for the whole world, whether they wanted Him to or
not, He did. Rom 5:8: 'But God commendeth his love toward us, in
that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' So...

The blood of Jesus therefore frees everyone in the whole world. In
other words, God *will not* automatically say no I do not accept you
because of the filth of sin on you; He *will not* turn His face away
now. It frees a person to go to Him personally and be heard, it does
not mystically make a person perfect. Why? Because the blood of
Jesus does not decide for you to offer Him your life and mean
it...which is the thing that He earnestly desires. Needless to say,
if a person does not give Him what He *deserves*, well that's it
then, the blood of Jesus is wiped under foot.

Very well said.

Vera wrote:

I have heard that only 20 per cent of the German evangelical pastors
really believe in the resurrection and in Jesus Christ.

Doesn't that really strike you? If only 20 percent of the Pastors
for all intents and purposes spend their lives looking to the things
of God, what of the congregations who are busy with the things of
this world like work and shopping? Perhaps then you can understand
what I am saying. There are even fewer in the religious
organisations than 20% who are prepared to Romans 12:1 or Matt 16:25.

Yes, it is striking, but it was a research of the National churches
here. But there are believers in them, too.

Vera wrote:

This given, there are many people in the churches who will be
rejected ("Pastor" Dave would be rejected for his way how he thinks
of African starving children, for example, and then for all his
heresy and lovelessness, lies and deceit - no chance for him...). It
is not enough to give a lip confession to God, but as you say, it is
important to keep His Commandments, namely to love Him with all your
heart and all you have, and your neighbour as yourself. Yet God
knows that we cannot become perfect here on earth to be justified.

Done that, but the good thing is that I have discernment - right from
the Lord, and there is also Scripture that confirms it.

God wants you to understand this. I pray for revelation. It is a
mystery though, so please be open.

If a person keeps those 2 commandments, then they are perfect in
God's eyes.
Please hold back till you finish reading this section and let me
explain this; it is not up to the person to keep those commandments,
it is up to God to make it happen. All the glory is His, and not of
the works of man.

That is right, and I know that.

How is this so?

Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me
first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury
their dead.

Now that seems a noble and right thing to do doesn't it, to take care
of your parents, especially in light of one of the 10 commandments at
the time to honour your father and your mother??!! Imagine the
conflict in the mind. Talk about up front too, Jesus just called
those parents dead men to boot.
Moving on, He said, "Follow Me."

The only responsibility a person has is to give their life to God.

Correct.

He will show how/the way if the person really really wants to. And
that narrow road to walk, that 'Pilgrims progress' if you will, is
when faith hits the ground running because such a course to walk is
*not bound* to the perceptions of the human mind of what is right and
wrong, and the vanity of striving to do good (as you can see above).
On the contrary it challenges all those preconceived ideas implanted
from the previous self-filled/ruled life, and definitely contrary to
religious doctrine.
We need to take a jump here...

Now if a person does give their life to Him, once it is truly His
(with God it is possible), He owns it, and controls it, Jesus is
Lord, and He decides what is going to happen and what is not. This
is where I wanted to take you.

But I know about that.

Remember, it is not up to an
individual to keep the commandments, it is up to God to *form them in
a person* because that person's life is in His control. Just like He
formed in the twelve (minus 1 plus 1) the pillars in His Church.

Correct. He lets us walk away a little but gets us back after we could
make some experiences. I have experienced that several times in my life
with Him myself already. Before I sin, something happened, or He warned
me to stop it and I did what he said.
A few weeks ago I asked Him about something that had an influence on my
life. He did not forbid it, but told me it was no good idea. I did it
anyway, and I could find out why it was not such a good idea shortly
afterwards. I hope I will listen to Him next time.

Now, look at this:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbor as thyself.

Look at those 2 words 'Thou shalt'. They are prophetic!! In other
words, if you come to me and offer up your body as a living
sacrifice, lose your life to me, put all your life in my hands,
then...............'Thou shalt...................', I the Lord will
do this thing.

That is not my view and what I get from these verses. When the Lord gave
the Ten Commandments, they were no prophecy, but an instruction, and
Jesus was referring to these Commandments which he replaced by the two
new Commandments which were a summary of the Ten Commandments in the Old
Testament in the new age after Jesus was on earth.
We still have a free will, Michael. God can make things happen, but we
can still decide to sin, and do sin as long as we are on this earth. He
will perfect us - but this will have to wait until he comes back.

You see, nothing of ourselves but through Him a person is more than a
conqueror. But surely surely surely, you must walk away from this
world and lose your life to Him. Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life
shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep
it unto life eternal.

Correct. We must be separated from this world, and it should not have an
influence on us.

You see how there is no compromise, yet those religious organisations
are founded on and thrive on compromise. Its there in your church
tomorrow if you look. The controlling bodies (Eph 6:12) of these
organisations (they have many hats) circumvent the earth to make new
converts to their religions and live off them by imposing old
testament laws of tithing and offerings now on top of that; new
converts who genuinely seek after God, but God will surely have His
way and in the end He will not lose one wheat, not one sheep.

My desire is to be a part of that but what can I do but wait on the
Lord.

Correct.
Many churches compromise, because they hope that people might convert.
See what Amazing Grace is doing... being nice to the heretics, copying
and pasting Christian stuff, hoping people might convert and do the same
(oh dear). Of course this happens at the churches, too. But I go there
to be together with other believers, and to have a place to praise God
together and to pray. God is very close to me there, not because He
would not be there elsewhere, but because I can concentrate on Him
there, because the daily life is taking my time very often. We would
starve if we would not work, and we would die in trash if we did not
clean our houses. We have duties to fulfil, and they tear us away from
God. So the best way to live would be at an abbey, but not everybody can
go there.
Of course you are right - God wants ALL of us, not just a part.
But now please tell me how you are giving this to Him. How can you
practice what you preach?

Vera wrote:

Then there are surely people all over this world who can become
believers and who are no church members. Being a church member is
not necessary to belong to God, but when people become believers,
they have the longing to share their faith with others, and to
praise God together with others and pray to him. So you might have
believers and unbelievers in the churches, which does not matter
much...

Okay.

Vera wrote:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought
forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the
householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good
seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto
them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou
then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both
grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will
say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind
them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
(Matthew 13:25-30 KJV)

So we have wheat and tares in the churches, too... but you can only
see the tares, which is simply wrong. (And tares are not necessarily
false teachers...)

Who is wheat, who is tare, that is for God to decide. I am willing to
believe that wheat and tares look very very similar when they are
growing. Someone might consider someone else a real evil person but
God could well be doing all sorts of things in that person's life to
refine them into exactly what He wants. Look at the motley crew that
He picked up for the disciples. But He sees deeper than we see and
sees further than we see. A person as they are today may well not be
as they are tomorrow. Therefore one has to be very careful when
calling anyone evil, especially when one declares that they are a
sinner as well. Which sinner therefore is not a sinner, isn't both
willful? Such a person ought to be very careful because the Lord
misses nothing.

Yes, it is up to God to decide who is tare and who is wheat, but it was
you who was complaining about the churches and their not being perfect.
But how could they be perfect with all the tare? Is it not the tare that
is offending you?
I discern strictly between sinners and false Christian teachers.

Vera wrote:

But you are right on this - God can only use perfect people. Sin is
what separates us from God - so we are still separated, but not in
Spirit, but our bodies are. We are perfect for God already, because
we belong to Him. One day we will see Him face to face, though, when
Jesus comes back. Until then we will continue to sin - more or less
- and add to the load He had on His shoulders on Calvary for us.

Is that it then Vera, the best we can hope for? Does that satisfy in
light of the fact that with God all things are possible? Doesn't
something inside you tell you that there must be more? Thou are
meant for much more than this. I am hopeful that 'Thou shalt' do
much more than continue to sin - more or less - and 'load up' the
Lord, or I wouldn't be writing what I am writing.

But Michael, my hope is to be perfected by Jesus Christ when He comes
back to this earth. Until then my desire is to be as close to God as
possible. But we are not there yet. Let me turn it around and ask you if
that what you have now is the best what you could hope for? Sure we are
meant for something better... but why not wait for HIM to perfect us,
like Scripture suggests it?

Michael Christ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God Bless you,
::: vera :::
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no
more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more.
The first things have passed away." (Revelation 21:4 WEB)

<> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>

--
___________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::
.

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	26 Dec 2007 02:39:12 AM

Vera I have snipped in a few places primarily because we agree. If we are
not careful we will be writing a book. :-).
Vera wrote:

So may I invite you to come to my church if you happen to come along here?

Sure.
Michael Christ wrote:

Vera wrote:

Done that, but the good thing is that I have discernment - right from the
Lord, and there is also Scripture that confirms it.

Okay, but remember the scripture that says that with God, all things are
possible...even when our natural minds think it is not.
Michael Christ wrote:

Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me
first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury
their dead.

Now that seems a noble and right thing to do doesn't it, to take care
of your parents, especially in light of one of the 10 commandments at
the time to honour your father and your mother??!! Imagine the
conflict in the mind. Talk about up front too, Jesus just called
those parents dead men to boot.
Moving on, He said, "Follow Me."

The only responsibility a person has is to give their life to God.

Vera wrote:

Correct.

Michael Christ wrote:

He will show how/the way if the person really really wants to. And
that narrow road to walk, that 'Pilgrims progress' if you will, is
when faith hits the ground running because such a course to walk is
*not bound* to the perceptions of the human mind of what is right and
wrong, and the vanity of striving to do good (as you can see above). On
the contrary it challenges all those preconceived ideas implanted
from the previous self-filled/ruled life, and definitely contrary to
religious doctrine.
We need to take a jump here...
Now if a person does give their life to Him, once it is truly His
(with God it is possible), He owns it, and controls it, Jesus is
Lord, and He decides what is going to happen and what is not.

Vera wrote:

But I know about that.

The message at this point is 'complete control', not partial ownership,
living sacrifice, not part sacrifice.
Michael Christ wrote:

Vera wrote:

Correct. He lets us walk away a little but gets us back after we could
make some experiences. I have experienced that several times in my life
with Him myself already. Before I sin, something happened, or He warned me
to stop it and I did what he said.
A few weeks ago I asked Him about something that had an influence on my
life. He did not forbid it, but told me it was no good idea. I did it
anyway, and I could find out why it was not such a good idea shortly
afterwards. I hope I will listen to Him next time.

You will if you want Him to 'form in you the perfection of the
commandments'.
We are getting closer to what I am on about.
Obedience is required. God does not ask more than any person is able (no
excuses then). With obedience comes perfection because God can and does
form perfection in a person. No obedience though, no perfection. Remember
obedience is obedience, not one iota less - He does not give anybody more
than they are able. And God's view of perfection is loving Him with all.
It is all about Him, not what I am or think I am, or what you are or what
you think you are.
If you could reread what I wrote below it would be helpful...
Michael Christ wrote:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbor as thyself.

Look at those 2 words 'Thou shalt'. They are prophetic!! In other
words, if you come to me and offer up your body as a living
sacrifice, lose your life to me, put all your life in my hands,
then...............'Thou shalt...................', I the Lord will
do this thing.

Vera wrote:

Instruction if you like, but the point is, are you capable of forming them
in
yourself or does He have to form them in you?
Vera wrote:

We still have a free will, Michael.

A free will to give Him what He wants, Vera. That is, your will.
A free will to be obedient...............or not.
If the commandments were given as an instruction in the sense that
man/religion believes then man/religion can walk in righteousness in his/its
own strength before God; meaning that the religious/mankind can form the
commandments in themselves - they can't. Can you see what I am saying?
A veil remains over the eyes of men. That veil is 'I can'. The only way it
can be lifted is to have an encounter with the glory of the Lord. Like Job
did.
It is obedience to God's personal instructions upon the heart of a man that
enables **Him to form** the commandments in that man. Nothing of
ourselves...it is His glory. Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants,
Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Do you understand me?
Vera wrote:

God can make things happen, but we can
still decide to sin, and do sin as long as we are on this earth. He will
perfect us - but this will have to wait until he comes back.

That is not true Vera.
Truly it isn't.
He is coming to judge and take His without spot and blemish bride. Like a
thief in the night there is no warning.
You must believe that God is able to totally transform you here and now; now
is the accepted time, now is the day of your salvation from self. I know it
is not common to typical religious beliefs but then it never has been. It
is a unique and special thing and all about the power of God to do far and
above what a person may think. You see, nothing of ourselves but through
Him a person is more than a conqueror, not 'more or less' one. Surely
surely surely, a person must walk away from their thoughts and perceptions
and put all their faith in Him.
That is why I quoted these scriptures...
Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first
to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their
dead.
....that disciple had to walk away from his 'what seemed right' religious
thoughts and perceptions and move to a higher level of understanding. And
that was to follow the Spirit/Jesus. Faith. It wasn't about the disciple's
father at all but about the disciple making his own decisions with his life.
No. For God to form the commandments in a man He must make the decisions.
A sincere and earnest and desperate heart for God will find what those
decisions are. Ask, seek, knock...etc., etc. Jesus really said, forget
all that you know, you just follow Me/Spirit of God.
He is able to part the Red Sea, to move the planet into alignment, create a
universe....and, transform a heart completely, make it perfect in His sight.
Every part of it. I know you will probably say, 'I know that'. But I am
not talking about some future, I am talking about now, here, while you still
have breath in your lungs. Paul knew the cruciality of this...
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech
you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we
might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye
receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day
of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold,
now is the day of salvation.)
Made the righteousness of God in Him (no disobedience)...now. He says
receive not the grace of God in vain; that means here and now. If one does
not allow themselves to be made into the righteousness of God (the 2
commandments), then the thief will come in moment when least expected and
the sacrifice of Jesus and the opportunity made available to all to
surrender their lives to Him will be lost; 'the grace of God in vain.
The heart must be totally transformed, here and now; there is no magical
purge in death.
It has never been about Michael Christ and what he is, or what he thinks he
is, or what anyone else thinks he is, it has always been about Him and what
He is able.
You can be more than 'sinning more or less', if you do whatever He tells you
to the full. Do you think God will form the commandments in someone who
disobeys? He won't. How is it people decide what is possible on the back
of not doing all He tells them in their hearts? Its crazy, ludicrous. This
whole subject is all so basic and without confusion. It goes right to the
heart of the human condition and back to the Garden of Eden. God says, "Do
as I have told you." No excuses.
Christianity is meant to be the glory of God, a light on the hill to a lost
world, a beacon of hope to a lost world, the **righteousness of God**, and
above all **the love of God personified**...not a part time obedient
theology that decides what God is able to do and what He is not!
The Christendom of this world is a disgrace and says, well, we are trying to
be obedient and our good intentions are sufficient and worthy. You must
prostrate yourself before our image or..............you are out of step with
God and God's people. Hogwash. If the rulers of these religious
organisations of this world are a foretaste of heaven and my God, then He is
not who He says He is.
Vera wrote:

Of course you are right - God wants ALL of us, not just a part.
But now please tell me how you are giving this to Him. How can you
practice what you preach?

I have *given* Him what He wanted, in word and deed, the life I had is His.
Song of Solomon: 7:10 I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.
How?
He says, don't do it...don't do it, He says do it...do it.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do
it.
Whatsoever.
You were honest earlier about what was not a good idea. Next time don't do
it, do as you are told, and continue to do as you are told. He is worthy,
isn't He? Or is He only worthy most of the time? I'm being frank because
it is so very very very important, Vera. What you **do** says everything.
The only people who say that something is impossible is the people who do
not obey.
Vera wrote:

Yes, it is up to God to decide who is tare and who is wheat, but it was
you who was complaining about the churches and their not being perfect.

I said that the Lord's been showing me more of late about the state of the
religious organisations. It is the people within the churches that are
complaining...
Michael Christ wrote:
"I hear the dissatisfaction all the time from the toilet cleaner to the
pulpit. The question is always the same: Why? 'Why, if we are the body of
Christ, why the powerlessness to overcome?' Of course, the overcoming is
not from without, but from within. That is the coal-face in which to meet
the true reality of a man's relationship with God. To surrender all, or not
to."
Vera wrote:

But how could they be perfect with all the tare? Is it not the tare that
is offending you?

But the Lord's Church is not dependent or determined by the placement of a
tare.
The Lord's knows His sheep and the sheep hear His voice; the wolves in
sheep's clothing have no part in it.
Vera wrote:

But you are right on this - God can only use perfect people. Sin is
what separates us from God - so we are still separated, but not in
Spirit, but our bodies are. We are perfect for God already, because
we belong to Him. One day we will see Him face to face, though, when
Jesus comes back. Until then we will continue to sin - more or less
- and add to the load He had on His shoulders on Calvary for us.

Michael Christ wrote:

Is that it then Vera, the best we can hope for? Does that satisfy in
light of the fact that with God all things are possible? Doesn't
something inside you tell you that there must be more? Thou are
meant for much more than this. I am hopeful that 'Thou shalt' do
much more than continue to sin - more or less - and 'load up' the
Lord, or I wouldn't be writing what I am writing.

Vera wrote:

But Michael, my hope is to be perfected by Jesus Christ when He comes back
to this earth.

Like I said, it is too late then Vera. The door is shut and no time to go
get oil in the lamp.
Vera wrote:

Until then my desire is to be as close to God as possible.

Close from the Lord's perspective is a lot more closer than you might
think.
Vera wrote:

But we are not there yet. Let me turn it around and ask you if that what
you have now is the best what you could hope for? Sure we are meant for
something better... but why not wait for HIM to perfect us, like Scripture
suggests it?

I wait on the Lord, of that I know only too well. :-). But my waiting it
two fold. One, is to finish what I have to do on this earth. Two, to get
the hell out of here and put my arms around Him.
If you analyse what I have said, it is not complex or confusing. It is all
about Him and what He can do with an obedient soul. Not a most of the time
obedient soul but an obedient one. If a person is obedient then they will
see that all of what I have been saying is true.
Michael Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: " ::: good news runner :::"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	31 Dec 2007 10:03:48 PM

In news:13n44pkrfqid52e@corp.supernews.com,
Michael Christ <christianlife@westnet.com.au> typed:

Vera I have snipped in a few places primarily because we agree. If
we are not careful we will be writing a book. :-).

Hi Michael,
I know it has been a while ago, sorry, I was kept up and did not have
the time for longer posts so much, but I would like to answer now... It
is good that you have snipped the things we agree on. I have snipped a
little on that same basis.

Vera wrote:

So may I invite you to come to my church if you happen to come along
here?

Sure.

Michael Christ wrote:

Vera wrote:

Done that, but the good thing is that I have discernment - right
from the Lord, and there is also Scripture that confirms it.

Okay, but remember the scripture that says that with God, all things
are possible...even when our natural minds think it is not.

Correct. But God is faithful and we can rely on Him. If He tells us
things somewhere, He will not deny them somewhere else. So I appreciate
we have Scripture to check things out.
[snip]

Michael Christ wrote:

We need to take a jump here...

Now if a person does give their life to Him, once it is truly His
(with God it is possible), He owns it, and controls it, Jesus is
Lord, and He decides what is going to happen and what is not.

Vera wrote:

But I know about that.

The message at this point is 'complete control', not partial
ownership, living sacrifice, not part sacrifice.

And how would that look like in your daily life?

Michael Christ wrote:

Remember, it is not up to an
individual to keep the commandments, it is up to God to *form them
in a person* because that person's life is in His control. Just
like He formed in the twelve (minus 1 plus 1) the pillars in His
Church.

Vera wrote:

A few weeks ago I asked Him about something that had an influence on
my life. He did not forbid it, but told me it was no good idea. I
did it anyway, and I could find out why it was not such a good idea
shortly afterwards. I hope I will listen to Him next time.

You will if you want Him to 'form in you the perfection of the
commandments'.

It had nothing to do with the commandments, though, or with sin. God had
not given me any orders - just a recommendation, because I had asked
Him. It had nothing to do with "obedience" or "disobedience".

We are getting closer to what I am on about.

Obedience is required. God does not ask more than any person is able
(no excuses then). With obedience comes perfection because God can
and does form perfection in a person. No obedience though, no
perfection. Remember obedience is obedience, not one iota less - He
does not give anybody more than they are able. And God's view of
perfection is loving Him with all.

Correct - but wherever humans are, they WILL fail. We can do and give
our best, though.

It is all about Him, not what I am or think I am, or what you are or
what you think you are.

If you could reread what I wrote below it would be helpful...

Michael Christ wrote:

Vera wrote:

Instruction if you like, but the point is, are you capable of forming
them in
yourself or does He have to form them in you?

It is a Commandment - that is what He said Himself. It is what we are to
do, and to what we have to stick if we have doubts.

Vera wrote:

We still have a free will, Michael.

A free will to give Him what He wants, Vera. That is, your will.

A free will to be obedient...............or not.

Correct.

If the commandments were given as an instruction in the sense that
man/religion believes then man/religion can walk in righteousness in
his/its own strength before God; meaning that the religious/mankind
can form the commandments in themselves - they can't. Can you see
what I am saying?

Sure. The carnal man is not able to love like God wants us to. We need
God to keep His Commandments.

A veil remains over the eyes of men. That veil is 'I can'. The only
way it can be lifted is to have an encounter with the glory of the
Lord. Like Job did.

It is obedience to God's personal instructions upon the heart of a
man that enables **Him to form** the commandments in that man. Nothing
of ourselves...it is His glory. Joh 2:5 His mother saith
unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Do you understand me?

Sure.

Vera wrote:

God can make things happen, but we can
still decide to sin, and do sin as long as we are on this earth. He
will perfect us - but this will have to wait until he comes back.

That is not true Vera.

Truly it isn't.

He is coming to judge and take His without spot and blemish bride.
Like a thief in the night there is no warning.

True. But it does not mean that His People would NEVER sin.

You must believe that God is able to totally transform you here and
now;

No, I disagree... we cannot be perfect as long as we are carnal. This
will only change when Jesus comes back.

now is the accepted time, now is the day of your salvation from
self. I know it is not common to typical religious beliefs but then
it never has been. It is a unique and special thing and all about
the power of God to do far and above what a person may think.

It is not so much what I "think", but what I can find in God's Word.

You
see, nothing of ourselves but through Him a person is more than a
conqueror, not 'more or less' one. Surely surely surely, a person
must walk away from their thoughts and perceptions and put all their
faith in Him.

Correct. But what shall I believe if I do not rely on His Word?

That is why I quoted these scriptures...

Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me
first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury
their dead.

...that disciple had to walk away from his 'what seemed right'
religious thoughts and perceptions and move to a higher level of
understanding. And that was to follow the Spirit/Jesus. Faith. It
wasn't about the disciple's father at all but about the disciple
making his own decisions with his life. No. For God to form the
commandments in a man He must make the decisions. A sincere and
earnest and desperate heart for God will find what those decisions
are. Ask, seek, knock...etc., etc. Jesus really said, forget all
that you know, you just follow Me/Spirit of God.

Yes, and why are you telling me that?

He is able to part the Red Sea, to move the planet into alignment,
create a universe....and, transform a heart completely, make it
perfect in His sight. Every part of it. I know you will probably
say, 'I know that'.

Right! :-)

But I am not talking about some future, I am
talking about now, here, while you still have breath in your lungs.
Paul knew the cruciality of this...
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did
beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to
God. 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that
ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in
the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold, now is the
accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Made the righteousness of God in Him (no disobedience)...now. He says
receive not the grace of God in vain; that means here and now. If
one does not allow themselves to be made into the righteousness of
God (the 2 commandments), then the thief will come in moment when
least expected and the sacrifice of Jesus and the opportunity made
available to all to surrender their lives to Him will be lost; 'the
grace of God in vain.

True...

The heart must be totally transformed, here and now; there is no
magical purge in death.

I do not believe that, Michael. We will sin as long as we are carnal.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we
have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John
1:8-10 KJV)

It has never been about Michael Christ and what he is, or what he
thinks he is, or what anyone else thinks he is, it has always been
about Him and what He is able.

You can be more than 'sinning more or less', if you do whatever He
tells you to the full. Do you think God will form the commandments
in someone who disobeys? He won't. How is it people decide what is
possible on the back of not doing all He tells them in their hearts?
Its crazy, ludicrous. This whole subject is all so basic and without
confusion. It goes right to the heart of the human condition and
back to the Garden of Eden. God says, "Do as I have told you." No
excuses.

But they did not. And later they had become so evil that God sent a
flood. He saw that nobody could keep the Commandments - and that was why
He sent Jesus to pay for our sins.

Christianity is meant to be the glory of God, a light on the hill to
a lost world, a beacon of hope to a lost world, the **righteousness
of God**, and above all **the love of God personified**...not a part
time obedient theology that decides what God is able to do and what
He is not!

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to
observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with
you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)

The Christendom of this world is a disgrace and says, well, we are
trying to be obedient and our good intentions are sufficient and
worthy. You must prostrate yourself before our image
or..............you are out of step with God and God's people.
Hogwash. If the rulers of these religious organisations of this
world are a foretaste of heaven and my God, then He is not who He
says He is.

And in how far are you better exactly? Can you give us an example?

Vera wrote:

Of course you are right - God wants ALL of us, not just a part.

But now please tell me how you are giving this to Him. How can you
practice what you preach?

Come on, Michael... even you are not without sin in the long run.
Thinking you can be is exactly what you rebuke - namely the idea you
could be without sin. And if you think you can obey, you have become
guilty for several more sins. Why did you not do what Jesus said? Why
are you still at home? Why have you not been to a prison today to visit
someone, or why have you not send all your money to the poor today?
What? You have not thought of that? - See what I mean?
Or you let God perfect you - which is good, I do not reject that -

Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto
you, do it.

Whatsoever.

You were honest earlier about what was not a good idea. Next time
don't do it, do as you are told, and continue to do as you are told.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. My decision had nothing to do with my walk
with God. But I know what you mean and agree. When God tells us to do
something we must obey. That does not mean we do not sin, however.

He is worthy, isn't He? Or is He only worthy most of the time? I'm
being frank because it is so very very very important, Vera. What
you **do** says everything.

Sure, and I appreciate your attempt to do something against sin. I hate
it, too.

The only people who say that something is impossible is the people
who do not obey.

Michael, I do believe in miracles, and in Angels - and in God.

Vera wrote:

Yes, it is up to God to decide who is tare and who is wheat, but it
was you who was complaining about the churches and their not being
perfect.

I said that the Lord's been showing me more of late about the state
of the religious organisations. It is the people within the churches
that are complaining...

Michael Christ wrote:
"I hear the dissatisfaction all the time from the toilet cleaner to
the pulpit. The question is always the same: Why? 'Why, if we are
the body of Christ, why the powerlessness to overcome?' Of course,
the overcoming is not from without, but from within. That is the
coal-face in which to meet the true reality of a man's relationship
with God. To surrender all, or not to."

In Revelation 2-3 Jesus is giving some instructions to the churches
which might be of help. I think the seven churches mentioned there are
like a mirror for the churches today... And you should also see that
none of those churches was righteous in God's eyes... I do not think the
situation has changed much.

Vera wrote:

But how could they be perfect with all the tare? Is it not the tare
that is offending you?

But the Lord's Church is not dependent or determined by the placement
of a tare.

The Lord's knows His sheep and the sheep hear His voice; the wolves in
sheep's clothing have no part in it.

Correct - but they are still in the churches to cause mischief.
[snip]

Vera wrote:

But Michael, my hope is to be perfected by Jesus Christ when He
comes back to this earth.

Like I said, it is too late then Vera. The door is shut and no time
to go get oil in the lamp.

That is why we should confess our sins - private sin in private, and
public sin in public - and repent, so we are forgiven.

Vera wrote:

Until then my desire is to be as close to God as possible.

Close from the Lord's perspective is a lot more closer than you might
think.

Could you explain what you mean by that, please?

Vera wrote:

But we are not there yet. Let me turn it around and ask you if that
what you have now is the best what you could hope for? Sure we are
meant for something better... but why not wait for HIM to perfect
us, like Scripture suggests it?

I wait on the Lord, of that I know only too well. :-). But my
waiting it two fold. One, is to finish what I have to do on this
earth.

To "finish"? But do you not think you are perfect already? So why should
you have to finish things if you are perfect?

Two, to get the hell out of here and put my arms around Him.

If you analyse what I have said, it is not complex or confusing. It
is all about Him and what He can do with an obedient soul. Not a
most of the time obedient soul but an obedient one. If a person is
obedient then they will see that all of what I have been saying is
true.

Obedience is something God wants, sure. And the Lord will perfect us -
sooner or later. If you are perfect already - Congratulation. I am
perfect, too, but for ONE reason only: I belong to God, and that is what
makes me perfect in His view.

Michael Christ

A HAPPY 2008, Michael!
::: vera :::

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me
They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User: "Michael Christ"
Title: Re: Religious Organisations	03 Jan 2008 06:12:11 AM

Hi Vera,
Vera wrote:

Hi Michael,

I know it has been a while ago, sorry, I was kept up and did not have the
time for longer posts so much, but I would like to answer now... It is
good that you have snipped the things we agree on. I have snipped a little
on that same basis.

Okay.
Michael Christ wrote;

The message at this point is 'complete control', not partial
ownership, living sacrifice, not part sacrifice.

Vera wrote:

And how would that look like in your daily life?

Basically nothing different than anyone else's life on the surface, but
underneath, in the heart, everything is centred on Him. Not a slip this
way, or a slide that way, I mean everything is about Him.
Yesterday I was busy building a chicken cage, doing what I know I ought to
be doing. The Lord stops me and tells me (a prompting in the centre of me),
to go over to my neighbour's house and poke my nose into what they were
doing. I knew what they were doing, laying a slab of concrete for the
garden shed but it was hot and He made me suggest water. No big deal. That
action in that moment changed the whole spiritual environment of our
adjoining properties. It took the pressure off my neighbour to come to me
and wish me a happy new year. He got to thank me for the baby blanket I got
them for Christmas (new baby), which was clearly on his mind. Me going to
him meant my acceptance of him because I offered him the use of my concrete
mixer but he hired one instead (he thought I might be offended). There is
much more but I can't adequately explain it in a letter, or even give
justice to what I have said.
What I have described above is an example of the difference between the
written word and life in the Spirit. The written word says love your
enemies (we are friendly but my neighbours don't know God). What use is the
written word other than to tell you what you should be and should do? Since
a man does not have the power in his own strength to do anything, that
leaves him up the creek without a paddle.
However, the Holy Spirit moving gives the power to love in a way that cannot
be written down because the written word cannot contain Him. A person
cannot worship God in the 'letter', a person must worship God in 'spirit and
truth'. The Bible/new testament points the way to life, but it is not life,
because the letter/written word does not give you the power to live it (like
the ten commandments in the old testament). Please read, I am answering
your question about my life and getting to the heart of what I have been
talking about...
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men,
but of God.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we
were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
And that is essentially what we have been discussing underneath all along.
That is why it is so difficult for us to truly agree in spirit because I am
relying on you to receive revelation; you must pick up on the 'spirit and
truth' of what I am saying to understand me. And the bigger picture...that
is what man has to do to really and truly know God. Jesus said...
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe
of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the
law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to
leave the other undone.
You see, the scribes and Pharisees were following the 'letter' (much like
christianity today), and not the desire of God, that is, the "Spirit of the
Scriptures." Oh that is so very very important, Vera. Hence that is why I
made a point of your 'not such a good idea' comment, not to point out some
seeming defect in you but to show you that that is the very key of how to
really and truly worship God in spirit and truth; how **He wants** to be
worshipped/touched. Like many, standing in church, holding up hands, and
listening to oneself singing doesn't quite 'do it' for Him; a bit like
having an offer from someone who says they want to make love to you, thus an
expectation is forged in you, only to find that they fail to turn up.
Religion vainly seeks to worship God through the adherence to the
letter/written word - can't be done - rather than worship the God of the
scriptures with the heart in spirit and truth. Would you like to be loved
according to rules??!! God reaches out with His heart only to become a
theology in many to be analysed, picked to pieces in men's small minds??!!
No, its crazy, no man can collect an ocean (Him) and place it (Him) in a
teacup. The human mind needs renewal, it cannot be the discerner of right
and wrong, that must c