| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"John" |
| Date: |
18 Sep 2004 10:15:16 AM |
| Object: |
Rom 13:8 meaning |
KJV
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth
another hath fulfilled the law.
Looks like from this verse "debt" is not mentioned. So I assume from it
that its okay to get into debt as long as the debt is not toward an
individual. Since all my debt is to banks, which were mostly
unavoidable like most people.
NIV
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
This indicates that I can have debt, just as long as its not in
"outstanding" status. if I continue to pay on my debts I am okay.
AMP
Romans 13
8Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another;
for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has
fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its
requirements].
This verse tells me to keep out of debt period! Impossible to do when
you are poor, and your have an old car with a job that does not pay!
There are millions in this boat and no one to help them also. I knew a
guy who was a college student, and had a serious medical accident. His
insurance did not cover anything, but letf him in a good amount of debt.
Should he have died to avoid the debt? Pastor Dave or someone who
thinks in this manor would probably have told that man to die, to avoid
debt.
I also knew of a pastor who had heart issues. Several times he was
flown to nerby hospitals. He accumalted tens of thousands in debts
because of his medial problems. Should he also have died to avoid debt?
How would God have wanted that?
MSG
8Don't run up debts, except for the huge debt of love you owe each
other. When you love others, you complete what the law has been after
all along.
How do I define running up debts? Am I okay if I am $50K in the hole?
100K? 20K? What would eb a huge debt? I know my credit card debt is
below average, and I usually compare myself to the average.
The average person would be $250K in debt if we combined all the nations
debt into one. Do the research yourself to see! This figure does not
include private credit card debt.
This debt issues seems like a very gray area. Some ulta conservatives
think its very clear to stay out of debt, and think that everyone
"except for themselves" that are in debt are foolish and materialistic.
But they have very narrow minded ways of thinking. First they declare
that only they are righetous because they are debt free, and me and
millions of other americans are materialistic! They say this even to
people who have medical operations costing them tens of thousands of
dollars!
John
--
Vote George W. Bush in the November election!
http://www.georgewbush.com
Whether itıs taxes, jobs, health care, energy,
or national security: America canıt afford
John Kerry in the White House!
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
18 Sep 2004 10:44:42 AM |
|
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:15:16 -0700, John
<johnw_94020@yahoo.com> screamed out:
KJV
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth
another hath fulfilled the law.
Looks like from this verse "debt" is not mentioned. So I assume from it
that its okay to get into debt as long as the debt is not toward an
individual. Since all my debt is to banks, which were mostly
unavoidable like most people.
I would read it as not owing any man anything, except
to love one another.
NIV
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
This indicates that I can have debt, just as long as its not in
"outstanding" status. if I continue to pay on my debts I am okay.
This is the secondary form of the word, but not the
primary. Remember this statement...
"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is
servant to the lender." - Proverbs 22:7
I don't believe the secondary form is consistent with
this passage.
AMP
Romans 13
8Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another;
for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has
fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its
requirements].
This verse tells me to keep out of debt period!
Yup. That is the primary form of the Greek word.
Impossible to do when
you are poor, and your have an old car with a job that does not pay!
No, it isn't. My job doesn't pay, neither does my
wife's. We have a 10 year old car with an oil leak
that's getting worse, that we can't afford to fix and
we still owe money on. It's going to have to come off
the road soon and there goes her job, since you can't
be a manager without a working car and the place she
works for doesn't pay managers well at all. Probably
less than some people make working in a factory. And
we'll still have to pay for the car. Plus my job
wouldn't even cover the rent, after everyone is
finished taking out of my paycheck, so we'll be on the
streets. Time to trust the Lord.
We only got the car, because they told her if she got
one, that they'd promote her to Manager and promised a
good amount of pay. Now that she has the car and the
promotion, the pay only went up some and so now, after
paying for the car (payment, gas, insurance,
maintenance, etc.), she actually ends up with $100.00
less in her pocket every month. She told them she was
making more before (sometimes she actually did in her
paycheck) and so they gave her a raise. $10 per week.
That was an insult! This, after she has made four of
their stores at least double in sales every week,
straightened out the same four which were in awful
condition and a horror to walk into. Oh well.
There are millions in this boat and no one to help them also. I knew a
guy who was a college student, and had a serious medical accident. His
insurance did not cover anything, but letf him in a good amount of debt.
Should he have died to avoid the debt? Pastor Dave or someone who
thinks in this manor would probably have told that man to die, to avoid
debt.
No, I would have told him to trust the Lord to pay the
debt. The Scripture does not say that one cannot go
into debt at all. It speaks of borrowing. Having an
accident, being rushed to the hospital and having them
care for you and then bill you, is not the same thing.
No one expects you to carry thousands of dollars with
you at all times. That would be like paying the garage
to fix your car, before they do it.
I also knew of a pastor who had heart issues. Several times he was
flown to nerby hospitals. He accumalted tens of thousands in debts
because of his medial problems. Should he also have died to avoid debt?
How would God have wanted that?
You're going off the deep end here. This is a bad
analogy. It would be like saying that he can't have a
heart attack, until he saves up for one first. :)
While that would be nice (if you knew one was coming),
it isn't a good analogy.
MSG
8Don't run up debts, except for the huge debt of love you owe each
other. When you love others, you complete what the law has been after
all along.
How do I define running up debts? Am I okay if I am $50K in the hole?
100K? 20K? What would eb a huge debt? I know my credit card debt is
below average, and I usually compare myself to the average.
You're not using common sense. You're so interested in
justifying running up debt and being in debt to others,
that you are writing logically. When we have a choice
in the matter (as opposed to a heart attack), then we
shouldn't seek to run up debt, to accumulate "things".
So what if your car is crappy. Does it move? If so,
then use it. God has provided you one. Do you have to
finance a car? Okay, it's not a sin, but do you need a
Lincoln? Or will an Escort do?
The average person would be $250K in debt if we combined all the nations
debt into one. Do the research yourself to see! This figure does not
include private credit card debt.
We are not "the nation". We are individuals.
This debt issues seems like a very gray area.
You have to understand, it says to owe MAN anything.
An institution is not a man. However, we should also
understand that we are not to seek the glory of
"things". If you MUST take a loan for a home or
something, you don't need a palace that will have you
struggling to eat normally for the next 30 years.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
www.drdino.com
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| User: "John" |
|
| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
18 Sep 2004 03:01:13 PM |
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In article <otkok05ab4pf5hcks1r7vnfpvribb8p408@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:15:16 -0700, John
<johnw_94020@yahoo.com> screamed out:
KJV
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth
another hath fulfilled the law.
Looks like from this verse "debt" is not mentioned. So I assume from it
that its okay to get into debt as long as the debt is not toward an
individual. Since all my debt is to banks, which were mostly
unavoidable like most people.
I would read it as not owing any man anything, except
to love one another.
I agree
NIV
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
This indicates that I can have debt, just as long as its not in
"outstanding" status. if I continue to pay on my debts I am okay.
This is the secondary form of the word, but not the
primary. Remember this statement...
"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is
servant to the lender." - Proverbs 22:7
Yes this is correct. I am a servant to my lenders.
No, it isn't. My job doesn't pay, neither does my
wife's. We have a 10 year old car with an oil leak
that's getting worse, that we can't afford to fix and
we still owe money on. It's going to have to come off
the road soon and there goes her job, since you can't
be a manager without a working car and the place she
works for doesn't pay managers well at all. Probably
less than some people make working in a factory. And
we'll still have to pay for the car. Plus my job
wouldn't even cover the rent, after everyone is
finished taking out of my paycheck, so we'll be on the
streets. Time to trust the Lord.
Your situation hardly represents the entire population.
No, I would have told him to trust the Lord to pay the
debt. The Scripture does not say that one cannot go
into debt at all. It speaks of borrowing. Having an
accident, being rushed to the hospital and having them
care for you and then bill you, is not the same thing.
No one expects you to carry thousands of dollars with
you at all times. That would be like paying the garage
to fix your car, before they do it.
He did trust in the Lord, but he had to incur debt to get himself
helped, or he dies. Its as simple as that.
You're not using common sense. You're so interested in
justifying running up debt and being in debt to others,
that you are writing logically. When we have a choice
in the matter (as opposed to a heart attack), then we
shouldn't seek to run up debt, to accumulate "things".
So what if your car is crappy. Does it move? If so,
then use it. God has provided you one. Do you have to
finance a car? Okay, it's not a sin, but do you need a
Lincoln? Or will an Escort do?
You have to understand, it says to owe MAN anything.
An institution is not a man. However, we should also
understand that we are not to seek the glory of
"things". If you MUST take a loan for a home or
something, you don't need a palace that will have you
struggling to eat normally for the next 30 years.
I agree with this. I do not owe any man, but I do own lenders. I have
much in college loan debt I will be needing to pay off when I gradute
somehow. I know I'm going to have to look at big churches in big cities
which pay some money.
John
--
Vote George W. Bush in the November election!
http://www.georgewbush.com
Whether itıs taxes, jobs, health care, energy,
or national security: America canıt afford
John Kerry in the White House!
.
|
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| User: "Gnos Theos" |
|
| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
19 Sep 2004 12:06:58 AM |
|
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John <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1095537671.BbPE8LGEn99/1F5dci3LOA@teranews>...
In article <otkok05ab4pf5hcks1r7vnfpvribb8p408@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:15:16 -0700, John
<johnw_94020@yahoo.com> screamed out:
KJV
Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth
another hath fulfilled the law.
Looks like from this verse "debt" is not mentioned. So I assume from it
that its okay to get into debt as long as the debt is not toward an
individual. Since all my debt is to banks, which were mostly
unavoidable like most people.
I would read it as not owing any man anything, except
to love one another.
I agree
NIV
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one
another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
This indicates that I can have debt, just as long as its not in
"outstanding" status. if I continue to pay on my debts I am okay.
This is the secondary form of the word, but not the
primary. Remember this statement...
"The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is
servant to the lender." - Proverbs 22:7
Yes this is correct. I am a servant to my lenders.
No, it isn't. My job doesn't pay, neither does my
wife's. We have a 10 year old car with an oil leak
that's getting worse, that we can't afford to fix and
we still owe money on. It's going to have to come off
the road soon and there goes her job, since you can't
be a manager without a working car and the place she
works for doesn't pay managers well at all. Probably
less than some people make working in a factory. And
we'll still have to pay for the car. Plus my job
wouldn't even cover the rent, after everyone is
finished taking out of my paycheck, so we'll be on the
streets. Time to trust the Lord.
Your situation hardly represents the entire population.
No, I would have told him to trust the Lord to pay the
debt. The Scripture does not say that one cannot go
into debt at all. It speaks of borrowing. Having an
accident, being rushed to the hospital and having them
care for you and then bill you, is not the same thing.
No one expects you to carry thousands of dollars with
you at all times. That would be like paying the garage
to fix your car, before they do it.
He did trust in the Lord, but he had to incur debt to get himself
helped, or he dies. Its as simple as that.
You're not using common sense. You're so interested in
justifying running up debt and being in debt to others,
that you are writing logically. When we have a choice
in the matter (as opposed to a heart attack), then we
shouldn't seek to run up debt, to accumulate "things".
So what if your car is crappy. Does it move? If so,
then use it. God has provided you one. Do you have to
finance a car? Okay, it's not a sin, but do you need a
Lincoln? Or will an Escort do?
You have to understand, it says to owe MAN anything.
An institution is not a man. However, we should also
understand that we are not to seek the glory of
"things". If you MUST take a loan for a home or
something, you don't need a palace that will have you
struggling to eat normally for the next 30 years.
I agree with this. I do not owe any man, but I do own lenders. I have
much in college loan debt I will be needing to pay off when I gradute
somehow. I know I'm going to have to look at big churches in big cities
which pay some money.
This post vexes my spirit. You are straining on a gnat, and
missing the camel. The Bible discourages debt exactly for the
last paragraph. If you are in debt, and need a large salary,
you are automatically disqualified from being a pastor for
pastors are not supposed to be greedy for money. You having
big bills to pay is going to be an extra temptation to not
preach too hard on issues that might offend big donors. I would
see what kind of aid, federal, state, or private money you can
get to keep from taking student loans. There are lots of
scholarships and money for college, you should search for some
of them. When I went to college, I worked part time and lived
very modestly to get a MS with a small 6k in loans. I served
in the military to get GI Bill, got grants and scholarships
to help. You would be amazed at how much money goes unclaimed.
I have seen people with 1000's of dollars in DVD and CD
collections. It is amazing how much money you can spend on
gadgets and gizmos. Always remember if it is electronic,
it will be half price in 6 months. Invest in things that
appreciate. Cars, computers, etc. depreciate very rapidly.
Try to avoid going into debt to buy something that depriciates
faster than you pay for it.
John
Pastor Dave,
I am willing to bet that there is a mechanic in your church,
and if not, get one saved. They could probably work on your
car for free, or at least cheaper than the dealership.
Truthfully, I think we should go back to riding horses. All
you need to do is breed them faster than they die. They eat
grass which is pretty common, and they are prettier than a
car anyway. Instead of parking lots, have a horse stall. They
don't pollute the air, and I don't care what wackos say about
the green house and methane emissions, horses are better than
cars. God never intended for us to bunch up in cities where
we could not be self sustaining. Cities are a form of bondage
through ignorance and no land. This is why God was so adamant
about the land being an eternal possession. Without land, you
cannot grow your own food, and raise your own live stock. You
have to depend on someone else -> bondage.
The tower of babel was about people refusing to spread
out.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning -- SIN AGAINST "GOD" |
19 Sep 2004 09:50:15 AM |
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===>ROMANS 13 is entirely an expression of pro-totalitarian, anti-democratic principles. It makes the
American Revolution a
"sin" against "God". -- L.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
18 Sep 2004 04:37:52 PM |
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:01:13 -0700, John
<johnw_94020@yahoo.com> screamed out:
No, it isn't. My job doesn't pay, neither does my
wife's. We have a 10 year old car with an oil leak
that's getting worse, that we can't afford to fix and
we still owe money on. It's going to have to come off
the road soon and there goes her job, since you can't
be a manager without a working car and the place she
works for doesn't pay managers well at all. Probably
less than some people make working in a factory. And
we'll still have to pay for the car. Plus my job
wouldn't even cover the rent, after everyone is
finished taking out of my paycheck, so we'll be on the
streets. Time to trust the Lord.
Your situation hardly represents the entire population.
I didn't say it did. It was a response based on your
comment.
John: This verse tells me to keep out of debt period!
Impossible to do when you are poor, and your have an
old car with a job that does not pay!
No, I would have told him to trust the Lord to pay the
debt. The Scripture does not say that one cannot go
into debt at all. It speaks of borrowing. Having an
accident, being rushed to the hospital and having them
care for you and then bill you, is not the same thing.
No one expects you to carry thousands of dollars with
you at all times. That would be like paying the garage
to fix your car, before they do it.
He did trust in the Lord, but he had to incur debt to get himself
helped, or he dies. Its as simple as that.
Reread what I wrote.
You have to understand, it says not to owe MAN anything.
An institution is not a man. However, we should also
understand that we are not to seek the glory of
"things". If you MUST take a loan for a home or
something, you don't need a palace that will have you
struggling to eat normally for the next 30 years.
I agree with this. I do not owe any man, but I do own lenders. I have
much in college loan debt I will be needing to pay off when I gradute
somehow. I know I'm going to have to look at big churches in big cities
which pay some money.
I would look to have God direct me to the church He
wants me to be in and not worry about who pays what.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
The real problem with creationism is that
our governments don't have the will to
prosecute the offenders (there are more
troublesome criminals around for one thing)
and our churches have lost the will to combat
heresies. - Dave Oldridge
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
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| User: "John" |
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| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
18 Sep 2004 09:15:57 PM |
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Very true. Dont want to end up in a feminist church, with a homosexual
pastor, just because they would offer me good money.
John
I would look to have God direct me to the church He
wants me to be in and not worry about who pays what.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
The real problem with creationism is that
our governments don't have the will to
prosecute the offenders (there are more
troublesome criminals around for one thing)
and our churches have lost the will to combat
heresies. - Dave Oldridge
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
--
Vote George W. Bush in the November election!
http://www.georgewbush.com
Whether it's taxes, jobs, health care, energy,
or national security: America can't afford
John Kerry in the White House!
.
|
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning |
19 Sep 2004 08:18:02 AM |
|
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While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:15:57 -0700, John
<johnw_94020@yahoo.com> screamed out:
Very true. Dont want to end up in a feminist church, with a homosexual
pastor, just because they would offer me good money.
This is true. I am simply saying that money shouldn't
be a consideration at all. Where God wants you should
be the only consideration (Luke 12).
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
In a company of literary gentlemen, Daniel Webster
was asked if he could comprehend how Jesus Christ
could be both God and man. "No, sir," he replied,
and added, "I should be ashamed to acknowledge Him
as my Savior if I could comprehend Him. If I could
comprehend Him, He could be no greater than myself.
Such is my sense of sin, and consciousness of my
inability to save myself, that I feel I need a
superhuman Savior, one so great and glorious that
I cannot comprehend Him."
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.
|
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Rom 13:8 meaning -- ESCAPE TO IGNORANCE |
19 Sep 2004 09:55:52 AM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
[SNIPALOT]
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
In a company of literary gentlemen, Daniel Webster
was asked if he could comprehend how Jesus Christ
could be both God and man. "No, sir," he replied,
and added, "I should be ashamed to acknowledge Him
as my Savior if I could comprehend Him. If I could
comprehend Him, He could be no greater than myself.
Such is my sense of sin, and consciousness of my
inability to save myself, that I feel I need a
superhuman Savior, one so great and glorious that
I cannot comprehend Him."
===>Good example of the believer's
escape to ignorance. -- L.
.
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