| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"The Last Liberal" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2004 05:43:45 PM |
| Object: |
School defends slavery booklet |
School defends slavery booklet
Critic says text is 'window dressing'
By T. KEUNG HUI
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
pleasures."
Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
weren't treated as badly as people think.
Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
slavery.
"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
Southern perspective," he said.
'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
* "To say the least, it is strange that the thing the Bible condemns
(slave-trading) brings very little opprobrium upon the North, yet that
which the Bible allows (slave-ownership) has brought down all manner
of condemnation upon the South." (page 22)
* "As we have already mentioned, the 'peculiar institution' of slavery
was not perfect or sinless, but the reality was a far cry from the
horrific descriptions given to us in modern histories." (page 22)
* "Slavery as it existed in the South was not an adversarial
relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its
dominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon
mutual affection and confidence." (page 24)
* "There has never been a multi-racial society which has existed with
such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world." (page
24)
* "Slave life was to them a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of
food, clothes, and good medical care." (page 25)
* "But many Southern blacks supported the South because of long
established bonds of affection and trust that had been forged over
generations with their white masters and friends." (page 27)
* "Nearly every slave in the South enjoyed a higher standard of living
than the poor whites of the South -- and had a much easier existence."
(page 30)
The booklet isn't the only connection its two co-authors have with the
school.
One of the authors, Douglas Wilson, a pastor in Moscow, Idaho, wrote a
book on classical education upon which the school bases its
philosophy. Wilson's Association of Classical and Christian Schools
accredited Cary Christian, and he is scheduled to speak at the
school's graduation in May.
Some school leaders, including Stephenson, founded Christ Church in
Cary, which is affiliated with Wilson's Idaho church.
The booklet's other author, Steve Wilkins, is a member of the board of
directors of the Alabama-based League of the South. That is classified
as a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based
civil rights group.
"Doug Wilson and Steve Wilkins have essentially constructed the ruling
theology of the neo-Confederate movement," said Mark Potok, editor of
the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Report.
Potok said people who argue that the South should secede again have
latched onto the writings of Wilson and Wilkins, which portray the
Confederacy as the last true Christian civilization.
At a time when a number of Triangle Christian schools have lost
enrollment and even closed, Cary Christian has seen rapid growth since
it opened in 1996.
The school has 623 students in kindergarten through 12th grade. With a
relatively low tuition -- up to $5,000 -- it has attracted families
from 55 churches. At least one parent must be a regular attendee of a
church.
Classical education
Stephenson said the school's growth is based on parental desire for a
classical education founded on the basics of phonics, grammar, logic
and rhetoric. Students read many classics, such as the writings of
Plato and Socrates.
"As a classical Christian school, we think it's important for our
students to be able to think and not be slanted to a particular
position," Stephenson said. "We want them to think for themselves."
Until two years ago, Stephenson said, middle school students also had
read excerpts from "Southern Slavery." He said the booklet was a
counterpoint to "Uncle Tom's Cabin," which he said portrayed all
Southern whites as treating their slaves badly.
Once the Civil War was no longer taught in middle school, Stephenson
said, Cary Christian stopped using the booklet in those grades.
But the 43-page booklet is still read in its entirety by ninth-graders
when they study the Civil War. Stephenson said the booklet can help
students formulate arguments when taking the pro-Southern side in
debates.
"A student may be assigned an opinion they may not agree with, so they
will understand both sides," Stephenson said.
Angela Kennedy, whose daughters have attended Cary Christian since
1996, said all the booklet does is help students learn about both
sides so that they have a basis to form their own opinions. She
pointed out that the students also read Abraham Lincoln's speeches.
"They really do get both sides of the story," Kennedy said. "In public
schools, all they get is one side of the story. That's not education.
That's indoctrination."
Stephenson said the booklet is discussed for two days. Even as they
read the booklet, he said, students are told slavery was wrong.
"Slavery is wrong," Stephenson said. "That's not debatable about
slavery. The South was wrong about the slave trade."
Parent's support
Marcus Ranch, who has three daughters at Cary Christian, said he has
no problem with the school using the booklet. He said it offers an
accurate portrayal that is overlooked of how many slaves were treated
kindly by their owners.
"That book is fine," Ranch said. "It does a good job with that
particular perspective."
But Potok questioned how the school can use a booklet that asserts
that slavery "was a relationship based upon mutual affection and
confidence."
"What these men have written is an apology for slavery," he said.
"They're putting window dressing on an abhorrent institution."
Potok also blasted the booklet, which was published in 1996, for
plagiarizing a previous work. The booklet has received criticism from
a number of historians.
Wilson declined to comment and referred questions to his assistant,
Mike Lawyer. Lawyer said the booklet has been pulled from publication
because of faulty footnotes and citation errors.
Lawyer said he thinks few schools use the booklet, which is published
by a company owned by Wilson's Idaho church.
But Lawyer said the authors stand by their central belief that the
Civil War didn't have to happen and that slavery would have ended on
its own.
"The Southern Poverty Law Center is just trying to make money out of
this," Lawyer said. "The Southern Poverty Law Center is totally off
base to think in any way that the book is neo-Confederate."
But the use of the booklet is leaving some area pastors concerned that
it could promote intolerance.
"If there's any attempt to divide us, it's totally un-Christian," said
Richard Dial, pastor of Cary Church of God.
Mike Woods, administrator of Wake Christian Academy, said he couldn't
see his school using "Southern Slavery, As it Was," especially with
younger students.
"It's so easy for some of them to take something they read and assume
you're in favor of it," he said.
---
http://lastliberal.org
"Hardly, since, as far as I know Dr. Duane T. Gish, has
not 'disavowed' those Paluxy Man tracks! It is evolutionists
who have been desperately trying to disavow them!" -- Liar
Appleton
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
09 Dec 2004 06:48:08 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
School defends slavery booklet
Critic says text is 'window dressing'
By T. KEUNG HUI
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
pleasures."
Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
weren't treated as badly as people think.
Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
slavery.
"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
Southern perspective," he said.
'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
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| User: "Jude" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
09 Dec 2004 08:08:04 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:t9shr0hrfuaece97v63udnc0kr60fu3d1k@4ax.com...
On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
School defends slavery booklet
Critic says text is 'window dressing'
By T. KEUNG HUI
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
pleasures."
Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
weren't treated as badly as people think.
Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
slavery.
"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
Southern perspective," he said.
'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
Liar, liar, pants on FIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRE!
.
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| User: "Ninure Saunders" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 07:50:41 AM |
|
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In article <Ju7ud.59209$Dm2.3210@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Jude"
<cajun@bayou.louisiana> wrote:
-"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
-news:t9shr0hrfuaece97v63udnc0kr60fu3d1k@4ax.com...
-> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
-> Everest, (The Last Liberal)
-> pontificated:
->
-> >School defends slavery booklet
-> >Critic says text is 'window dressing'
-> >
-> >By T. KEUNG HUI
-> >
-> >http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
-> >
-> >Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
-> >controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
-> >with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
-> >pleasures."
-> >
-> >Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
-> >using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
-> >provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
-> >weren't treated as badly as people think.
-> >
-> >Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
-> >to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
-> >the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
-> >sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
-> >slavery.
-> >
-> >"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
-> >Southern perspective," he said.
-> >
-> >'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
->
-> The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
-> are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
-> of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
-> quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
-> mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
-> You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
-> being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
-> about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
->
-> What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
-> what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
-> approve of the need for slaves.
->
-> What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
-> Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
-> the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
-> what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
-> debt and good care is called for.
-
-Liar, liar, pants on FIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRE!
It's been a while since I posted a list of Bible verses relating to
slavery, so here they are again. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST, just the
highlights.
If you think only the Old Testament approves of slavery, please note the
NT passages quoted below.
As a general rule, the old US slave states conducted their affairs in
general accord with scripture, so if Simon Legree did it,he could claim it
was approved by the Bible.
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but
on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master, and he
shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce his
ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not
to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his
unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her
according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her
food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then she
shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and
he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an
inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not
free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his
money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his house may
eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a
slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner with
you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go
back to his family, that he may return to the property of his
forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have -
you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are
around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they
also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a
possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your
countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one
another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you
becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to
the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his
brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he
prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold
himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale shall
correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that
he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount
for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule
over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in
the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I
brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in
my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any
who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as male and
female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and
rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will
say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit
down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and
afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say,
"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have
done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You
were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he
was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your
heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on
earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with
sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own
masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine
may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve them
all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
[I note that you omit the instructions to the masters. E.g. you cut off Ep
6 after the instructions to the slaves but before 6:9:
9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you
know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him
there is no partiality.
I claim that the basis of Christian attitudes here must be
Gal 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free,
there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ
Jesus.
This leads to Eph 6:9 as well as the similar statement in Col 4:1.
The question I would have to ask of the southern slave holders is
whether they actually treated their slaves as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
Take my polls
http://ninure.100megsfree5.com
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.
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| User: "Jude" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 08:04:15 AM |
|
|
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-1012040805590001@h-68-164-15-73.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...
In article <Ju7ud.59209$Dm2.3210@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Jude"
<cajun@bayou.louisiana> wrote:
-"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
-news:t9shr0hrfuaece97v63udnc0kr60fu3d1k@4ax.com...
-> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
-> Everest, (The Last Liberal)
-> pontificated:
->
-> >School defends slavery booklet
-> >Critic says text is 'window dressing'
-> >
-> >By T. KEUNG HUI
-> >
-> >http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
-> >
-> >Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
-> >controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
-> >with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
-> >pleasures."
-> >
-> >Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
-> >using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
-> >provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
-> >weren't treated as badly as people think.
-> >
-> >Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
-> >to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
-> >the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
-> >sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
-> >slavery.
-> >
-> >"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
-> >Southern perspective," he said.
-> >
-> >'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
->
-> The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
-> are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
-> of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
-> quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
-> mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
-> You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
-> being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
-> about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
->
-> What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
-> what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
-> approve of the need for slaves.
->
-> What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
-> Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
-> the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
-> what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
-> debt and good care is called for.
-
-Liar, liar, pants on FIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRE!
It's been a while since I posted a list of Bible verses relating to
slavery, so here they are again. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST, just the
highlights.
If you think only the Old Testament approves of slavery, please note the
NT passages quoted below.
As a general rule, the old US slave states conducted their affairs in
general accord with scripture, so if Simon Legree did it,he could claim it
was approved by the Bible.
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but
on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master, and he
shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce his
ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not
to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his
unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her
according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her
food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then she
shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and
he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an
inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not
free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his
money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his house may
eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a
slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner with
you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go
back to his family, that he may return to the property of his
forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have -
you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are
around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they
also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a
possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your
countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one
another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you
becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to
the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his
brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he
prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold
himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale shall
correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that
he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount
for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule
over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in
the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I
brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in
my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any
who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as male and
female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and
rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will
say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit
down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and
afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say,
"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have
done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You
were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he
was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your
heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on
earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with
sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own
masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine
may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve them
all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
[I note that you omit the instructions to the masters. E.g. you cut off Ep
6 after the instructions to the slaves but before 6:9:
9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you
know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him
there is no partiality.
I claim that the basis of Christian attitudes here must be
Gal 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free,
there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ
Jesus.
This leads to Eph 6:9 as well as the similar statement in Col 4:1.
The question I would have to ask of the southern slave holders is
whether they actually treated their slaves as brothers and sisters in
Christ.
Ninure,
Dave KNOWS about these verses. He chooses to IGNORE them (or put a spin to
them) because they put the idea of a holy and inerrant bible in a negative
light.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 02:12:37 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:04:15 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Jude" <cajun@bayou.louisiana>
pontificated:
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote
in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-1012040805590001@h-68-164-15-73.chcgilgm.dyn
amic.covad.net...
In article <Ju7ud.59209$Dm2.3210@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Jude"
<cajun@bayou.louisiana> wrote:
-"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in
message -news:t9shr0hrfuaece97v63udnc0kr60fu3d1k@4ax.com...
-> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
-> Everest, (The Last Liberal)
-> pontificated:
->
-> >School defends slavery booklet
-> >Critic says text is 'window dressing'
-> >
-> >By T. KEUNG HUI
-> >
-> >http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
-> >
-> >Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are
reading a -> >controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes
Southern slavery -> >with its view that slaves lived "a life of
plenty, of simple -> >pleasures."
-> >
-> >Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning
slavery by -> >using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that
attempts to -> >provide a biblical justification for slavery and
asserts that slaves -> >weren't treated as badly as people think.
-> >
-> >Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing
students -> >to different ideas, such as how the South justified
slavery. He said -> >the booklet is used because it is hard to find
writings that are both -> >sympathetic to the South and explore what
the Bible says about -> >slavery.
-> >
-> >"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
-> >Southern perspective," he said.
-> >
-> >'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the
booklet: ->
-> The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
-> are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
-> of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
-> quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
-> mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
-> You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
-> being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
-> about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
->
-> What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
-> what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
-> approve of the need for slaves.
->
-> What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
-> Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
-> the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
-> what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
-> debt and good care is called for.
-
-Liar, liar, pants on FIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRE!
It's been a while since I posted a list of Bible verses relating to
slavery, so here they are again. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST, just
the highlights.
If you think only the Old Testament approves of slavery, please note
the NT passages quoted below.
As a general rule, the old US slave states conducted their affairs in
general accord with scripture, so if Simon Legree did it,he could
claim it was approved by the Bible.
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years;
but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons
or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master,
and he shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce
his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she
is not to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of
his unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with
her according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce
her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then
she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a
rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his
eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom,
an inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she
was not free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with
his money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his
house may eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with
regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him
to a slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner
with you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and
shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of
his forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your
God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have
- you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that
are around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land;
they also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as
a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to
your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity
over one another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner
with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so
poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is
sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of
his brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or
if he prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he
sold himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his
sale shall correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of
a hired man that he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the
amount for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not
rule over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out
in the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom
I brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born
in my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more
than any who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their
place, and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as
male and female slaves; they will take captive those who were their
captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep,
will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately
and sit down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk;
and afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you,
say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought
to have done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about
it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which
he was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of
your heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters
on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men,
but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their
own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our
doctrine may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve
them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
[I note that you omit the instructions to the masters. E.g. you cut
off Ep 6 after the instructions to the slaves but before 6:9:
9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you
know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him
there is no partiality.
I claim that the basis of Christian attitudes here must be
Gal 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free,
there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ
Jesus.
This leads to Eph 6:9 as well as the similar statement in Col 4:1.
The question I would have to ask of the southern slave holders is
whether they actually treated their slaves as brothers and sisters in
Christ.
Ninure,
Dave KNOWS about these verses. He chooses to IGNORE them (or put a
spin to them) because they put the idea of a holy and inerrant bible in
a negative light.
I don't ignore anything. What you ignore is context
and the words actually written. For example, when Paul
tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, he is not
saying that he approves of slavery. He is calling for
peace. But people like you forget what else is said.
"11:20
All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto
you.
Which flying creeping
things may we eat?
11:21
Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all
four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
11:22
Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald
locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper
after his kind.
A statement calling for peace does not automatically
imply approval of slavery. You and Ninure add to what
is said. Show me one verse in which Paul said that he
approves of the concept. Also prove that Onesimus was
treated as whites treated blacks in the U.S. and that
he did not become Philemon's servant, to pay off a
debt.
GEN:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had
done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be
unto his brethren.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 10:35:05 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:04:15 -0600, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Jude" <cajun@bayou.louisiana>
pontificated:
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@Rainbow-Christian.tk> wrote in
message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-1012040805590001@h-68-164-15-73.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...
In article <Ju7ud.59209$Dm2.3210@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, "Jude"
<cajun@bayou.louisiana> wrote:
-"Pastor Dave" <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
-news:t9shr0hrfuaece97v63udnc0kr60fu3d1k@4ax.com...
-> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 23:43:45 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
-> Everest, (The Last Liberal)
-> pontificated:
->
-> >School defends slavery booklet
-> >Critic says text is 'window dressing'
-> >
-> >By T. KEUNG HUI
-> >
-> >http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
-> >
-> >Students at one of the area's largest Christian schools are reading a
-> >controversial booklet that critics say whitewashes Southern slavery
-> >with its view that slaves lived "a life of plenty, of simple
-> >pleasures."
-> >
-> >Leaders at Cary Christian School say they are not condoning slavery by
-> >using "Southern Slavery, As It Was," a booklet that attempts to
-> >provide a biblical justification for slavery and asserts that slaves
-> >weren't treated as badly as people think.
-> >
-> >Principal Larry Stephenson said the school is only exposing students
-> >to different ideas, such as how the South justified slavery. He said
-> >the booklet is used because it is hard to find writings that are both
-> >sympathetic to the South and explore what the Bible says about
-> >slavery.
-> >
-> >"You can have two different sides, a Northern perspective and a
-> >Southern perspective," he said.
-> >
-> >'SOUTHERN SLAVERY, AS IT WAS' Here are some excerpts from the booklet:
->
-> The first thing to question, is whether the excerpts
-> are quotes, or approval of said quotes, or the opinion
-> of the author. There is a difference. Just because a
-> quote says that the Bible approves of slavery, does not
-> mean that the author is agreeing with that conclusion.
-> You have not provided any evidence of what is actually
-> being said and frankly, with your documented dishonesty
-> about Christianity, we have no reason to trust you.
->
-> What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
-> what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
-> approve of the need for slaves.
->
-> What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
-> Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
-> the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
-> what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
-> debt and good care is called for.
-
-Liar, liar, pants on FIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRE!
It's been a while since I posted a list of Bible verses relating to
slavery, so here they are again. THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST, just the
highlights.
If you think only the Old Testament approves of slavery, please note the
NT passages quoted below.
As a general rule, the old US slave states conducted their affairs in
general accord with scripture, so if Simon Legree did it,he could claim it
was approved by the Bible.
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but
on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master, and he
shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce his
ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not
to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his
unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her
according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her
food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then she
shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and
he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an
inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not
free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his
money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his house may
eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a
slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner with
you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go
back to his family, that he may return to the property of his
forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have -
you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are
around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they
also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a
possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your
countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one
another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you
becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to
the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his
brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he
prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold
himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale shall
correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that
he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount
for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule
over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in
the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I
brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in
my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any
who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as male and
female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and
rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will
say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit
down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and
afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say,
"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have
done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You
were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he
was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your
heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on
earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with
sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own
masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine
may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve them
all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
[I note that you omit the instructions to the masters. E.g. you cut off Ep
6 after the instructions to the slaves but before 6:9:
9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you
know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him
there is no partiality.
I claim that the basis of Christian attitudes here must be
Gal 3:28
There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free,
there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ
Jesus.
This leads to Eph 6:9 as well as the similar statement in Col 4:1.
The question I would have to ask of the southern slave holders is
whether they actually treated their slaves as brothers and sisters in
Christ.
Ninure,
Dave KNOWS about these verses. He chooses to IGNORE them (or put a spin to
them) because they put the idea of a holy and inerrant bible in a negative
light.
I don't ignore anything. What you ignore is context
and the words actually written. For example, when Paul
tells slaves to be obedient to their masters, he is not
saying that he approves of slavery. He is calling for
peace. But people like you forget what else is said.
"Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but
if thou mayest be made free, use it rather."
- 1 Corinthians 7:21
Letter to Philemon, a Christian, about Onesimus, a
Christian slave who ran away from his master and went
to Paul.
Philemon 1:15-18
15) For perhaps he therefore departed for a season,
that thou shouldest receive him forever;
16) Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a
brother beloved, especially to me, but how much more
unto thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord?
17) If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him
as myself.
18) If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee aught, put
that on mine account;
A statement calling for peace does not automatically
imply approval of slavery. You and Ninure add to what
is said. Show me one verse in which Paul said that he
approves of the concept. Also prove that Onesimus was
treated as whites treated blacks in the U.S. and that
he did not become Philemon's servant, to pay off a
debt.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
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| User: "The Last Liberal" |
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| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
09 Dec 2004 07:41:06 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:48:08 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
You ought to read the Bible, "Pastor Dave."
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
You are either lying or ignorant: the "servitude" that the Hebrew and
Christian Testaments approve of are that of captive prisoners of war.
The tribal war god Yahweh even approved of putting little girls into
sexual slavery: I would quote the Bible verses, but only a depraved
pornographer would do so.
---
http://lastliberal.org
Laugh my tush off as i watch you burn in the Christian hell forever.
- Raoul Newton
.
|
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 09:02:48 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:41:06 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:48:08 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
You ought to read the Bible, "Pastor Dave."
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
You are either lying or ignorant: the "servitude" that the Hebrew and
Christian Testaments approve of are that of captive prisoners of war.
The tribal war god Yahweh even approved of putting little girls into
sexual slavery: I would quote the Bible verses, but only a depraved
pornographer would do so.
So you didn't prove a thing and I'll assume that your
silence regarding my questions about the intent of the
book you mentioned, is your admission that you were
misrepresenting it with false claims.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Last Liberal" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 11:05:32 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:02:48 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:41:06 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:48:08 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
You ought to read the Bible, "Pastor Dave."
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
You are either lying or ignorant: the "servitude" that the Hebrew and
Christian Testaments approve of are that of captive prisoners of war.
The tribal war god Yahweh even approved of putting little girls into
sexual slavery: I would quote the Bible verses, but only a depraved
pornographer would do so.
So you didn't prove a thing and I'll assume that your
silence regarding my questions about the intent of the
You are lying, "Pastor Dave." Please see Job 13:4-12 for what happens
to liars like you.
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years;
but
on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master, and
he
shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce
his
ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is
not
to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his
unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with
her
according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce
her
food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then
she
shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod
and
he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his
eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an
inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was
not
free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his
money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his house
may
eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with
regard
to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a
slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner
with
you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall
go
back to his family, that he may return to the property of his
forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your
God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have
-
you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are
around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land;
they
also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a
possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to
your
countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over
one
another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with
you
becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with
regard
to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or
to
the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of
his
brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if
he
prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he
sold
himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale
shall
correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man
that
he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the
amount
for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not
rule
over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out
in
the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom
I
brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born
in
my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than
any
who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their
place,
and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as male
and
female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors,
and
rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep,
will
say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and
sit
down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk;
and
afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you,
say,
"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have
done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about
it;
but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23
You
were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which
he
was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of
your
heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters
on
earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but
with
sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their
own
masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our
doctrine
may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve
them
all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
http://lastliberal.org
"I ***** flaming napalm upon your straw man." -- Curtis Johnson
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 02:14:37 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:41:06 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:48:08 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
You ought to read the Bible, "Pastor Dave."
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
You are either lying or ignorant: the "servitude" that the Hebrew and
Christian Testaments approve of are that of captive prisoners of war.
The tribal war god Yahweh even approved of putting little girls into
sexual slavery: I would quote the Bible verses, but only a depraved
pornographer would do so.
So you didn't prove a thing and I'll assume that your
silence regarding my questions about the intent of the
book you mentioned, is your admission that you were
misrepresenting it with false claims.
GEN 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had
done unto him.
9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto
his brethren.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Last Liberal" |
|
| Title: Re: School defends slavery booklet |
10 Dec 2004 05:08:14 PM |
|
|
On 10 Dec 2004 20:14:37 GMT, Pastor Dave <newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 01:41:06 GMT, while scaling the Mt.
Everest, (The Last Liberal)
pontificated:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:48:08 GMT, Pastor Dave
<newsgroupmail@nospam-tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
What is sure, is that the Bible does not approve of
what slavery was here in America and nowhere does it
approve of the need for slaves.
You ought to read the Bible, "Pastor Dave."
What is also true, is that the slavery described in the
Bible, is not what happened here in America and only
the ignorant, like you, think that it is. Typically,
what is described is servitude. I.e., the payment of
debt and good care is called for.
You are either lying or ignorant: the "servitude" that the Hebrew and
Christian Testaments approve of are that of captive prisoners of war.
The tribal war god Yahweh even approved of putting little girls into
sexual slavery: I would quote the Bible verses, but only a depraved
pornographer would do so.
So you didn't prove a thing and I'll assume that your
silence regarding my questions about the intent of the
book you mentioned, is your admission that you were
misrepresenting it with false claims.
Such as:
O L D T E S T A M E N T
EXODUS 21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but
on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
EXODUS 21:3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the
husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
EXODUS 21:4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or
daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to his master, and he
shall go out alone.
EXODUS 21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my
wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man.'
EXODUS 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall
bring him to the door or the door post. And his master shall pierce his
ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
EXODUS 21:7 "And if a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not
to go free as the male slaves do.
EXODUS 21:8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who
designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He
does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his
unfairness to her.
EXODUS 21:9 "And if he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her
according to the custome of daughters.
EXODUS 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her
food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
EXODUS 21:11 "And if he will not do these three things for her, then she
shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
EXODUS 21:20 "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and
he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
EXODUS 21:21 "If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance
shall be taken; for he is his property.
EXODUS 21:26 "And if a man strikes the eye of his male or female
slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
EXODUS 21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female
slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave,
betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an
inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not
free;
LEVITICUS 22:11 'But if a priest buys a slave as his property with his
money, that one may eat of it, and those that are born in his house may
eat of his food.
LEVITICUS 25:39 'And if a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a
slave's service.
40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner with
you, until the year of jubilee.
41 'He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go
back to his family, that he may return to the property of his
forefathers.
42 'For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of
Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale.
43 'You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.
LEVITICUS 25:44 'As for your male and female slaves whom you may have -
you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are
around you.
45 'Then too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as
aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their
families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they
also may become your possession.
46 'You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a
possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your
countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one
another.
LEVITICUS 25:47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you
becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard
to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to
the descendants of a stranger's family,
48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his
brothers may redeem him,
49 or one of his blood relatives from his family may redeem him; or if he
prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 'He then with his purchaser shall calculate from the year when he sold
himself to him up to the year of jubilee; and the price of his sale shall
correspond to the number of years. It is like the days of a hired man that
he shall be with him.
51 'If there are still many years, he shall refund part of his
purchase price in proportion to them for his own redemption;
52 and if few years remain until the year of jubilee, he shall so
calculate with him. In proportion to his years he is to refund the amount
for his redemption.
53 'Like a man hired year by year he shall be with him; he shall not rule
over him with severity in your sight.
54 'Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall still go out in
the year of jubilee, he and his sons with him.
55 "For the sons of Israel are My servants; they are My servants whom I
brought out from the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Ecc 2:7 I bought male and female slaves, and had slaves who were born in
my house; I had also great possessions of herds and flocks, more than any
who had been before me in Jerusalem.
ISAIAH 14:2 And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place,
and the house of Israel will posses them in the LORD's land as male and
female slaves; they will take captive those who were their captors, and
rule over those who oppressed them.
N E W T E S T A M E N T
LUKE 17:7 "But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will
say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit
down to eat'?
8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and
properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and
afterward you will eat and drink'?
9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were
commanded, does he?
10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say,
"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have
done.'"
1 CORINTHIANS 7:21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it;
but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.
22 For he who was called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's
freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You
were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
24 Brethren, let each man remain with God in that condition in which he
was called.
EPHESIANS 6:5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your
heart, as to Christ;
6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ,
doing the will of God from the heart.
COLOSSIANS 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on
earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with
sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
1 TIMOTHY 6:1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own
masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine
may not be spoken against.
2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be
disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve them
all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are
believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
TITUS 2:9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in
everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the
doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
---
http://lastliberal.org
The only product that MicroSoft could produce that WOULDN'T suck would
be a vacuum cleaner.
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