cantc=FF wrote:

Linda Lee wrote:

cantc=FF wrote:

Linda Lee the original language expert wrote:

Can't I reveal to you what Yeshua` really said?

Go ahead. LOL!

I did not write that, you lying idiot. I wrote can't I ask about your
pet belief, universalism, the one you base all your hopes on.

STN wrote:

cantcy wrote:

The WCG did teach:
1 Timothy 2: [emphasis mine throughout]
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savi=

4 who desires *all* people to be saved and to come to the knowl=

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and=

who gave himself a ransom for *all*, which is the testimony giv=

This is more of Paul's version of twisted scripture. Both Mark 10:=

and Matt. 20:28 quote the Messiah as saying his purpose was "to gi=

his life a ransom for ***many***, which is a far cry from "all" if
you're not one of the many.

Don't be silly. "All" is not quantitative.

Don't you be silly; the subject was concerning universalism i.e. will
ALL the people in the world be saved,

and that will be many people - an innumerable multitude.

True, or "many" can mean a large group, but it is not anywhere near t=

same as ALL in English.

But Yeshua wasn't speaking English.

He was speaking a Hebrew word which means "many" not ALL.

Don't go applying your sense of the English translation of the Greek=

What other way would one interpret the English Bible, which was
translated from the Latin, which was from the Greek, which was from t=

Aramaic. Oh, I guess the Latin was left out of your formula.

And of course Paul stipulates that Yeshua`
was only a "man"

Mark 10:18, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good?'

No one is good, not even I and Father.

Why do you lie? He did not say "not even I and Father". He was simply
pointing out that they recognized him as good because he was the
Father, and only the Father is good.

That says nothing about Yeshua being a man.

And Mark is not Paul. Are you on drugs or what?

Numbers 23:19, "God is not as a man, that he should lie
nor as a son of man, that he should be changed."

This simply says God is not a liar, like man is, and that God is
unchanging, unlike man. You miscomprehend a lot. It does NOT say that
God said he would never incarnate in the form of a man. It says God is
unlike evil men.

If Yeshua claimed He was only a man and also claimed to be God, and
claimed that He was not God and thus not "good", then Yeshua
contradicted Himself with His own words just as much as Paul did.
The point is the Paul did not contradict Yeshua anymore than Yeshua
contradicted Yeshua.

That is a lie based on a twisting of the scripture.

separates him from God the Saviour, which is contradictory also as=

can he be the ransom if he is not the Saviour also??

You are pathetically ignorant.
The name Yeshua means 'God saves' not 'I save'.

No, you are thinking of Yehoshua - a combination of YHVH and yeshuwah
meaning YHVH saves or YHVH's salvation.

YESHUA` means "he will save".

In such a case, "He" refers to God, not to the person with the name.

What makes you think that??? He certainly does mean the person
possessing that name.

God is the only saviour (I'm
sure you've seen that).

Are you saying that God is the only Savior, or that Yeshua is also the =

Certainly, God is the only Saviour and He performed His salvation in
the form of Yeshua` the Messiah, the Saviour.

The WCG also taught that today is not the only day for salvatio=

Rather that the vast majority were not now called and would be =

Please consider that it is God who:
- predestines us to salvation (Rom 8:29-30).
- predestines us to adoption (Eph 1:5).
- predestines us according to His purpose (Eph 1:11).

Why are you quoting Paul or does the WCG focus mainly on Paul's
teachings to the exclusion of the prophets, the true apostles, and=

Messiah, as many Christian churches do?

no exclusion by the WCG at all.
Paul covered soteriology in a manner more as a Greek than as a Galil=

No kidding.

I wasn't kidding.

Neither was I. Paul rejected his Jewish heritage, as did Esau, and
preferred to follow the ways and religions of the pagan Gentiles.

Hence it is easier to cite for definitive statements.

Definitively WRONG statements. He constantly misinterpreted scripture
from the prophets, but I'd like that.

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).

True, but scripture indicates that men can harden themselves and
resolve not to answer the call of God.

I guess you think they are more powerful than God and that God canno=

No, but I think God chooses to allow some to doom themselves

So you think. But where does God say this?

He says it many times. One example: In Deut. 30:10-19, God says,
"IF thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep
his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the
law, and IF thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and
with all thy soul ...the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and
in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. SEE, I have set before thee this
day life and good, and death and evil ...I have set before you life and
death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and
thy seed may live".

Oh, yeah, you don't believe that God saves anyone.
If you believed the prophets, you would not think that God is so "sh=

Oh, yeah, you believe that God saves everyone - no matter how wicked =

just plain lazy they are. If I believed the prophets, I'd get it
together and repent.

- calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1:9).
- appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48).

More of Paul's self-justifying gospel. Of course God appointed Pau=

called him according to His purpose. According to Paul, the Messi=

life, death, and resurrection was of no effect and God decided to =

all over again with Paul as top man of the 'gospel' of lies, prete=

and guile (according to Paul).

- more of Linda's lies etc.

- works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29).

This indicates that they already believe (as they are called belie=

when God works through them. As Abraham believed God and it was
accounted to him as faith and he was called a friend of God.

The point here is that faith is from God.
If God sends you strong delusion instead, you cannot acquire faith.

- creates a clean heart (Psalms 51:10).

David, who is already a believer, is here asking God, "Create in m=

clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

- pointing out that it is God who cleanses the believer.

Key word "believer" and one who asks God to help him with this.

There are many who can't - and who never heard of Yeshua.

Most people have access to a concept of God. David did not know the
name of the Saviour either, yet God guided him.

If God doesn't do it, how would it happen?

Apparently, you've got to ask or it won't happen.

Then most people are out of luck and God cannot save them.

- chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph 1:4).

Oh, so this is why "all things are lawful" for Paul unlike anyone =

and why the "chiefest of sinners" was appointed to be holy and
blameless - according to Paul.

Do you admit that you are the chiefest of sinners?

No dear, that title is reserved for Paul, the "chiefest of sinners". =

I know you wouldn't.

And neither did you. If I said that I would know that I was lying.
You seem to be commending Paul for announcing he was the chiefest of
sinners. How bizarre of you.

Is this worse than choosing a tax collector or a Roman centurion?

Yes, of course it is, as neither are persecutors of the "church of
God", which Paul admitted persecuting and in fact admitted being the
chief persecutor and leading the band of 4,000 murderers who persecut=

and murdered believers.

So what? It just proves that anyone can be saved.

LOL. No, it does not. It proves that murderers LIE.

You don't want to accept this.

If Paul had changed his ways, I would believe he had changed. He only
changed his method of persecution. After his visitation by Iesous, he
worked from within (rather than attacking from without), threatening to
"not spare" if they demanded a proof that he was an apostle, and
threatening to come with a rod, rather than with love, if they remained
"puffed up" against him and rejected that he was an apostle, and
sending believers "to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so the
spirit may be saved".

In II Cor. 13:1-3, Paul states what he will do if they continue to
demand proof that he is really an apostle, saying, "This is the third
time I am coming to you ...if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye
seek a proof of Christ speaking in me".

In I Cor. 4:14-21, Paul says, "I warn you. ...Wherefore I beseech
you, be ye followers of me ...Now some are puffed up, as though I would
not come to you. But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and
will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power
...** What will ye? Shall I come unto you with a rod, ** or in love,
and in the spirit of meekness?"

One of the most outrageous doctrines that Paul promotes in his writings
is that he instructs his followers to "deliver such an one unto Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved" (I
Cor. 5:5).

This is exactly what Paul had done before his alleged conversion
experience when he put the members of the church of God to death
because he considered them as heretical to Judaism, the only difference
now being that they are rejecting him as an apostle of his new gospel.
Paul was still killing those who did not accept his religious beliefs,
but he now has a new 'excuse' for his murders. Paul is here
speaking of killing people who resisted his teachings, and his excuse
is that delivering them to Satan by murdering them will 'save'
their spirits. That would make Satan, the chief adversary of God and
man, a saviour of men.

This cannot be true. Paul has somehow made murdering people and
delivering them to Satan into a 'necessary remedy' for
'disobedient followers' (i.e. those who reject him as an apostle)
to obtain salvation. He has made himself, as a murderer, and Satan, THE
murderer, into 'saviours' of men's spirits, or so he claims.

In truth, you are fortunate that anyone can be saved.

Salvation depends on keeping the commandments and following Yeshua`.

In Acts 21:38 a man accuses Paul of leading a band of 4,000 murderers.

But God saves!

If God chooses A Hitler for salvation, do you have a problem with th=

An unrepentant Hitler as Paul was unrepentant? See, that is the big
draw for Paul, and this is the reason you're upset about the subject =

paul and universalism and want to defend Paul as if your own life
depended on it.

My life depends on God's grace.
Either God can save me or He cannot.
If He cannot, no one can.

He is not going to force you to come to him. He will "stand at the
door and knock"; he doesn't knock the door down and force his way in;
you must allow him access.

God will "draw all men to him" Yeshua` (John 12:32). In Rev. 3:20
the resurrected Saviour says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock:
IF any man hear my voice, and OPEN the DOOR, I will come in to him".
God will draw you to seek him, but you must allow him in.

Yeshua` the Messiah says in Matt. 7:7, "Ask and it shall be given
you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto
you". Ask for knowledge and forgiveness, and it shall be given you;
seek God and you shall find Him; knock, and the door of Heaven shall be
opened unto you.

If Paul, the chiefest of sinners can be saved WITHOUT repentance (he
showed no signs of repenting when he was 'appointed' as he was on the
way to more persecuting),

You can't believe that God choose to save Paul apart from works.
Paul did repent, though - after God changed Him.

LOL - sure he was changed - NOT. We'd be dead if we rejected his
apostleship while he was still alive - delivered to Satan for the
destruction of our flesh so Paul might save our spirit. What a
blasphemous PERVERSION of SALVATION is Paul's sick excuse for murdering
believers who rejected him as an apostle.

To God be the glory - it was not by Paul's strength or righteousness th=

he was saved.

He did not change. The writings of himself and the true apostles show
he remained a child of the devil.

In Rom. 7:9, Paul says, "For the good that I would I do not: but the
evil which I would not, that I do." Paul is double-minded and
unstable in all his ways. In Rom. 7:25, Paul says, "So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of
sin."

I John 3:8-10 says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the
devil sinneth from the beginning ...Whosoever is born of God doth not
commit sin ...he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the
children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil; whosoever
doeth not righteousness is not of God".

then everyone can be saved because none of us
are as bad as the chiefest of sinners

So this is a great example to have in the Bible.

It's a falsehood. Paul's teachings that Christians are above the law
will doom many to Hell.

Proverbs 17:15 says, "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that
condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD".

In Rom. 4:5 Paul teaches that belief in Iesous Christos will justify
the wicked, saying, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on
him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
righteousness". Paul's advice is that they need not do any good
works as their belief in Iesous will justify the ungodly and wicked and
will lead them to be considered righteous.

When Judgment Day occurs (just as in Dan. 7:9-11), and John says in
Rev. 20:11-15, "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on
it ...And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the
books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of
life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written
in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead
which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were
in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And
death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
into the lake of fire."

When the King Messiah has come, Dan. 12:2 says of those who have died,
"many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The
wicked will not receive any more chances to repent before God destroys
their spirits in the 'lake of fire', and the righteous, including
those who have been long dead, will enter into eternal life in Heaven.

- causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1:3).

Yes, because of the resurrection of Messiah, he has "begotten"
*believers*, but you know he did not claim all were believers.

How many people do you know who chose to be born?

?? Born into the flesh??

Of course. People do not choose to be begotten.

Apples and oranges; flesh and spirit. Seek and you shall find.

The verse prior to this says they are sanctified by the Spirit

But you what to take the credit for yourself as if you did something=

All I know is I have never rejected God in this lifetime, and
God couldn't have saved me otherwise.

God can save anyone as He wills.

But there is nothing to say that He wills to save those who hate Him
and reject Him.

- makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1=

John 1:12-13, "But as *many as received him*, to them gave he powe=

become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Whi=

were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the =

of man, but of God". This last part is in relation to being reborn

- from fallen angels, yeah, sure, we know what you believe.

Where do you think we came from - outer space - the sea - Krypton ?
I know you don't believe in a physical resurrection for believers.

Do you believe people become angels when they die?

Of course not. We will be like angels in the sense that [w]e will not =

That's ludicrous. We will be EQUAL to the angels, and angels do not
marry because they aren't male and female flesh.

In Luke 20:35-36, the Messiah says, "they which shall be accounted
worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead ...are
equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children
of the resurrection".

That "world" is Heaven, the realm of the immortal angels; and those
in the flesh who are "accounted worthy" will be "equal unto the
angels" because they will become angels again when their flesh dies.
This scripture reveals that the resurrection is a spiritual one, not a
resurrection of the flesh.

The word here translated 'world' - Gk. 165 - is defined in part
"perpetuity (also past)", eternal. Some will one day return to the
same "world" from which our spirits originated in the past when
this physical earthly world began, a world without end - Eternity
i.e. Heaven.

The word here translated 'equal' - Gk. 2465 - is defined
"**like an angel**, i.e. angelic:"

It is no more fantastic to think that we might become that than
it is to believe we once were what we might become - ANGELS.

What is fantastic about that? Don't you mean that it is your fantasy?

No, I mean that you're deluded, spiritually dead and blind.

that's basically the context of NT soteriology.
'all' is not limited to 'people' but to the entire 'creation' act=

that includes the 'wicked'

That is solely Pauline doctrine, Paul who is admittedly the "chief=

of sinners".

But do you admit that you are?

No. Do you?

Yes.

So you're an incarnation of Paul's spirit or the Devil's? I think
that's another Cantsee lie designed to justify the lying false prophet
Paul who gives you hope that even the most evil will be saved so you
don't need to "keep the commandments" or follow Yeshua`.

cantcÿ wrote:

Linda Lee wrote:

cantcÿ wrote:

Linda Lee the original language expert wrote:

STN wrote:

cantcy wrote:

The WCG did teach:
1 Timothy 2: [emphasis mine throughout]
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires *all* people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ,
who gave himself a ransom for *all*, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

This is more of Paul's version of twisted scripture. Both Mark 10:45
and Matt. 20:28 quote the Messiah as saying his purpose was "to give
his life a ransom for ***many***, which is a far cry from "all" if
you're not one of the many.

Don't be silly. "All" is not quantitative.

Don't you be silly; the subject was concerning universalism i.e. will
ALL the people in the world be saved,

and that will be many people - an innumerable multitude.

True, or "many" can mean a large group, but it is not anywhere near the
same as ALL in English.

But Yeshua wasn't speaking English.

He was speaking a Hebrew word which means "many" not ALL.

Don't go applying your sense of the English translation of the Greek translation of the Aramaic original to decide that it is twisted.

What other way would one interpret the English Bible, which was
translated from the Latin, which was from the Greek, which was from the
Aramaic. Oh, I guess the Latin was left out of your formula.

And of course Paul stipulates that Yeshua`
was only a "man"

Mark 10:18, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good?'
No one is good, not even I and Father.

That says nothing about Yeshua being a man.

And Mark is not Paul.

Numbers 23:19, "God is not as a man, that he should lie
nor as a son of man, that he should be changed."

This simply says God is not a liar, like man is, and that God is
unchanging, unlike man. It does NOT say that
God said he would never incarnate in the form of a man.

If Yeshua claimed He was only a man and also claimed to be God, and
claimed that He was not God and thus not "good", then Yeshua
contradicted Himself with His own words just as much as Paul did.
The point is the Paul did not contradict Yeshua anymore than Yeshua
contradicted Yeshua.

That is a twisting of the scripture.

separates him from God the Saviour, which is contradictory also as how
can he be the ransom if he is not the Saviour also??

You are pathetically ignorant.
The name Yeshua means 'God saves' not 'I save'.

YESHUA` means "he will save".

In such a case, "He" refers to God, not to the person with the name.

What makes you think that??? He certainly does mean the person
possessing that name.

God is the only saviour (I'm sure you've seen that).

Are you saying that God is the only Savior, or that Yeshua is also the Savior.

Certainly, God is the only Saviour and He performed His salvation in
the form of Yeshua` the Messiah, the Saviour.

- draws people to Himself (John 6:44,65).

True, but scripture indicates that men can harden themselves and
resolve not to answer the call of God.

I guess you think they are more powerful than God and that God cannot save whoever he chooses.

No, but I think God chooses to allow some to doom themselves

So you think. But where does God say this?

He says it many times. One example: In Deut. 30:10-19, God says,
"IF thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep
his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the
law, and IF thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and
with all thy soul ...the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and
in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. SEE, I have set before thee this
day life and good, and death and evil ...I have set before you life and
death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and
thy seed may live".

- creates a clean heart (Psalms 51:10).

David, who is already a believer, is here asking God, "Create in me a
clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

- pointing out that it is God who cleanses the believer.

Key word "believer" and one who asks God to help him with this.

There are many who can't - and who never heard of Yeshua.

Most people have access to a concept of God. David did not know the
name of the Saviour either, yet God guided him.

And neither did you. If I said that I would know that I was lying.
You seem to be commending Paul for announcing he was the chiefest of
sinners. How bizarre of you.

Is this worse than choosing a tax collector or a Roman centurion?

Yes, of course it is, as neither are persecutors of the "church of
God", which Paul admitted persecuting and in fact admitted being the
chief persecutor and leading the band of 4,000 murderers who persecuted
and murdered believers.

So what?

It proves that murderers LIE.

You don't want to accept this.

If Paul had changed his ways, I would believe he had changed. He only
changed his method of persecution. After his visitation by Iesous, he
worked from within (rather than attacking from without), threatening to
"not spare" if they demanded a proof that he was an apostle, and
threatening to come with a rod, rather than with love, if they remained
"puffed up" against him and rejected that he was an apostle, and
sending believers "to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so the
spirit may be saved".

In II Cor. 13:1-3, Paul states what he will do if they continue to
demand proof that he is really an apostle, saying, "This is the third
time I am coming to you ...if I come again, I will not spare: Since ye
seek a proof of Christ speaking in me".

In I Cor. 4:14-21, Paul says, "I warn you. ...Wherefore I beseech
you, be ye followers of me ...Now some are puffed up, as though I would
not come to you. But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and
will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power
...** What will ye? Shall I come unto you with a rod, ** or in love,
and in the spirit of meekness?"

One of the most outrageous doctrines that Paul promotes in his writings
is that he instructs his followers to "deliver such an one unto Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved" (I
Cor. 5:5).

This is exactly what Paul had done before his alleged conversion
experience when he put the members of the church of God to death
because he considered them as heretical to Judaism, the only difference
now being that they are rejecting him as an apostle of his new gospel.

In truth, you are fortunate that anyone can be saved.

Salvation depends on keeping the commandments and following Yeshua`.

If Paul, the chiefest of sinners can be saved WITHOUT repentance (he
showed no signs of repenting when he was 'appointed' as he was on the
way to more persecuting),

You can't believe that God choose to save Paul apart from works.
Paul did repent, though - after God changed Him.

We'd be dead if we rejected his apostleship while he was still alive -
delivered to Satan for the destruction of our flesh so Paul might save
our spirit.

To God be the glory - it was not by Paul's strength or righteousness that
he was saved.

He did not change. The writings of himself and the true apostles show
he remained a child of the devil.

In Rom. 7:9, Paul says, "For the good that I would I do not: but the
evil which I would not, that I do." Paul is double-minded and
unstable in all his ways. In Rom. 7:25, Paul says, "So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of
sin."

I John 3:8-10 says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the
devil sinneth from the beginning ...Whosoever is born of God doth not
commit sin ...he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the
children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil; whosoever
doeth not righteousness is not of God".