On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:50:05 -0500, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net>

"Bonnie *****" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:jkc6221jgrj3543372a9fdqhtf1epfpdsp@4ax.com...

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:34:54 -0500, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net>

"Terry Cross" <tcross77@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143150768.960656.230170@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

A US flag is as inappropriate in a Christian church as a crucifix in
Congress. That is the real meaning of "separation between church and
state."

TCross

Congress needs a crucifix - maybe they'd remember to tell the truth.

Why? It hasn't helped your cult masters.

You discredit yourself in no time.

Quit talking to yourself.
And the crucifix still hasn't helped your cult masters (or any
christstain) tell the truth.

"Homosexuality is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who
live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as
shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such
rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful
friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is
particularly apt to produce." -- Plato

"Terry Cross"

randy

"State" is often synonymous with "government."

You and I know that "state" and "government" are not
synonymous,
however. Not in common usage, and not by definition:

I don't agree. I *often* refer to the State in terms of the
government, largely because in a republic the government
holds the actual power on behalf of all the citizens of a
State.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=state
10. A body politic, especially one constituting a nation:
the states
of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous
territorial and
political units composing a federation under a sovereign
government:
the 48 contiguous states of the Union.

There are many more definitions that these. A republican
government is an entity representing the citizens of an
entire State.

Would you equate the management of GM with the GM
corporation? I
should hope not. The management might make that mistake,
but the
shareholders never would. Nor would the engineers and
other workers.

Yes, GM management would be a "shortcut" for the GM
corporation.

Regardless,
it seems nonsensical to suggest the Christian Church
should
not have an American flag.

It is disgusting.

The Christian religion often declares submission to its
government out of a need to model "law and order." In this
case, Christians themselves participated in developing the
American kind of government. The fact that the American
political system guarantees freedom of religion is something
Christians take pride in. Having a flag in the church is not
an essential agreement with everything that the government
does. I think perhaps you read too much into this very
simple form of freedom, to have a flag in a religious
building during a religious service. I find you an
interesting person, Terry, and I do think there is a point
to be made. We shouldn't blindly follow our political
representatives.

Excuse me, but I was not criticizing the government or the
laws of the
United States. I was criticizing the churches. By flying
the flag,
the churches indicate they have become followers of state
policy.

Yes, I thought that's where you're coming from. I just think
you're reading way too much into this. A church can fly the
American flag without giving support to the Iraq war, for
example. Some may view displays of patriotism today as some
kind of right-wing statement or some kind of militant
agenda. But the flag is simply a statement of political
unity. Sure there are naive people who don't realize they
are being manipulated by propaganda. But we can't control
what people think. We can send people to public schools and
encourage them on to higher education, and still they may
not learn to be critical thinkers.

Do you recall the time when the church was called
"sanctuary?" The
king's soldiers could not pursue a fugitive into the
church, because
the church was a law unto itself. I like that model.

Well there's a certain nostalgia to that. I like it too.

However, the church that flies the flag declares itself
void of any
higher calling. You might as well turn on the evening
news as go to a
church sermon under the flag. I would feel like a Nazi
sitting under a
swastika to go to church under a flag - not by reason of
modern US war
policy, but by reason of the utter dominance of state
power over
anything and everything, including the minds of the people
sitting in a
pew.

I think we need to learn to accept our political leadership
no matter what party is in control. I've attended Mormon
churches, though I'm a more conventional Christian. And I
listen to Democrat-biased talk programs, though I lean more
towards the Republican party. We need to learn to sit under
symbols we don't like, and to calmly approach the issues in
a rational way. Rearranging symbols can accomplish a little.
But the substance lies beneath the symbolism, I think.

I draw to your attention that the churches never used to
fly the flag.
This nonsense came about only in the last few years. I
would feel more
defiled to attend such a church as to wear a Tommy
Hilfiger shirt to my
wedding.

That's not true at all. What makes you think this only came
about in the last few years? I've seen American flags flying
in both worship services and in the buildings of Christian
organizations all my life! Of course I haven't been in all
churches across America. Here is an interesting quick-look
at the issue:
http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/flags_in_church.htm

Neutrality cannot be achieved because we have no objective
measurement
of religious neutrality. Every time the individual
administrator
exercises judgment, she should use her best judgment. And
if she is a
Christian, she will use her Christian values - in fact,
her judgement
will always be colored by her religion.

That is the nature of humankind.

I do understand, Terry, that this has become, in the last
few years, a bigger issue. So your concerns are noted. I've
been somewhat divided over the war in Iraq, but I look at
the flag as a kind of political process that I only hope
works out...