| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Ted J L" |
| Date: |
30 Dec 2007 04:01:05 PM |
| Object: |
Should Christians Dance? |
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing. The form of dancing that
took place in 1915 would be considered innocent compared to the forms
of dancing today. Yet a mighty man of God filled with the Spirit of God
preached against it. Today an astoundingly higher number of Christian
teenagers attend dances through the public schools and teen night clubs
than did in 1915. I have worked with teens in three different fundamental
Baptist churches. I have found that approximately 80% of professing
Christian teens dance and defend dancing, believing that dancing is
good clean fun.
This poses some questions. If dancing was wrong in 1915 can it
be right in the '90s? Is right and wrong variable and dependent on
our culture and on society's changes and adaptations? Do scriptural
interpretations and applications depend solely on the characteristics
of our day and age and what the majority of churches allow, or do
they depend on the character of God and His will for man?
"Christians today use the Bible more for excusing what they
do than for correcting what they do. There are few Christians,
pastor and people alike, that view the Bible as the bedrock
foundation for all manners of life, faith and practice.
Psalm 119:105 says, 'Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and
a light unto my path.' This does not mean grab the Bible
like a flashlight and shine it where you want to walk. It means,
where the Bible shines, WALK!! Follow the light.
"A few years ago a secular movie hit the screens of America's
theaters called Footloose. Footloose was about a mid-western
American town that was controlled by the influence of the town
church and pastor, a type of influence many people would consider
'legalistic' now. The town had laws that banned 'old fashioned,
wicked' practices of drinking, rock music, and dancing. A new kid
came to town and sought to 'modernize' the public school by
allowing the teens to dance. He took on the pastor and town
board of commissioners by using Scripture to prove dancing
was good clean fun. He succeeded in convincing them all. The
whole town, including the pastor and his wife, cut 'footloose.'
This film's philosophy has been accepted not only by Christian
teens, but also by their parents and has infiltrated the church.
The 'Footloose' philosophy has been adopted not only by
liberals and neo-evangelicals, but by fundamentalists.
"This article is written to examine very closely what the
Bible says about dancing in light of God's character and
sound biblical exegesis. God's word is the final authority
to true believers..."
Excerpt/Article Source:
"SHOULD CHRISTIANS DANCE?"
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/shouldchristiansdance.htm
August 7, 2000 (Fundamental Baptist Information Service,
P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org)
.
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
30 Dec 2007 04:28:05 PM |
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"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No other
mamal or living being was given that gift.
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
30 Dec 2007 06:04:21 PM |
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"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Whales even compose.
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And sing...and
rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO, of course.
Diana
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
30 Dec 2007 07:18:29 PM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And
sing...and rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO,
of course.
Diana
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 09:14:12 AM |
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"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have very
different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do," then
of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And
sing...and rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO,
of course.
Diana
.
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
|
| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 12:59:00 PM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:8H7ej.7477$ZI4.254@trnddc08...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have
very different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Not music. It's a language based on pitch.
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do,"
then of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And
sing...and rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO,
of course.
Diana
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 02:06:16 PM |
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"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy right
now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only humans
can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted to.
.
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 03:39:09 PM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you enjoy,,
fine.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of words
or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized by
it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 04:22:09 PM |
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"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4779619a$0$12748$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
Really?
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you enjoy,,
fine.
Nope, I asked for your definition.
It seems to be fairly specific.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of
words or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized by
it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
Not all music has immediately identifiable rhythm.
Structure, yes...but not always a definate rhythm/syncopation.
......and I may, perhaps, be incorrect on this, but all the music I have ever
heard, or made had some meaning; the choice of notes is never arbitrary.
.
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 09:37:22 AM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:lYdej.42355$NL5.36204@trnddc05...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4779619a$0$12748$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to
me that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
Really?
Yes.
A joke amoung music directors is, "The song should be , Hark the Herals,
Angels shout"
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you
enjoy,, fine.
Nope, I asked for your definition.
It seems to be fairly specific.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of
words or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized
by it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
Not all music has immediately identifiable rhythm.
Maybe to you.
Maybe you are calling the wrong thing "music".
Structure, yes...but not always a definate rhythm/syncopation.
Repetative pattern.
I think it best I drop this general conversation.
Structure, without exception, implies rhythm, even in architechture.
.....and I may, perhaps, be incorrect on this, but all the music I have
ever heard, or made had some meaning; the choice of notes is never
arbitrary.
You are not a musician. Fine.
You have your world. Enjoy it. You really don't have to understand it.
The next time you get your car repaired;
1. Don't ague about what a "rubber" tire is.
2. Don't argue about exactly what an automobile is.
Talk to a few composers and learn what God has given us that you may not
have appreciated.
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 11:08:11 AM |
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"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:477a5e26$0$30724$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:lYdej.42355$NL5.36204@trnddc05...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4779619a$0$12748$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running
of cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to
me that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is,
only humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one
wanted to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
Really?
Yes.
A joke amoung music directors is, "The song should be , Hark the Herals,
Angels shout"
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you
enjoy,, fine.
Nope, I asked for your definition.
It seems to be fairly specific.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of
words or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized
by it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
Not all music has immediately identifiable rhythm.
Maybe to you.
Maybe you are calling the wrong thing "music".
Structure, yes...but not always a definate rhythm/syncopation.
Repetative pattern.
I think it best I drop this general conversation.
Structure, without exception, implies rhythm, even in architechture.
.....and I may, perhaps, be incorrect on this, but all the music I have
ever heard, or made had some meaning; the choice of notes is never
arbitrary.
You are not a musician. Fine.
Actually, I may be. Sorta. At least, I lead the music in church, sing a lot
(people actually ask me to, go figure...) and have taken a bunch of classes
in it. Still do, when I have time. I still remember a fair amount...enough
to read music, conduct it, and train a choir, anyway. I don't know if you
could call that 'being a musician' or not...something tells me you may have
a more stringent definition.
I will admit that I haven't heard any songwriter/composer admit to
arbitrarily chosing any note they place; they all claim a specific purpose
for every single one. ;-)
You have your world. Enjoy it.
I do.
You really don't have to understand it.
None of us do, not completely.
The next time you get your car repaired;
1. Don't ague about what a "rubber" tire is.
They don't make tires out of 'rubber' anymore.
2. Don't argue about exactly what an automobile is.
I may not be able to define it, but I know what it is when I see it.
Perhaps you could share your credentials as a musician, yourself? I would be
duly impressed, I promise.
Talk to a few composers and learn what God has given us that you may not
have appreciated.
Gee, and here I thought you liked me.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 10:34:01 PM |
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vernono wrote:
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
san angel is not a 'being' it is a myth like gods, devils and satans
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you enjoy,,
fine.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of words
or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized by
it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
It is a question of degree. You need to allow for the fact that the random
process of evolution gave us freak brains.
.
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| User: "Linda Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 08:15:47 PM |
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On Dec 31 2007, 11:34 pm, bob young <alaspect...@netvigator.com>
wrote:
vernono wrote:
"Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:YYbej.6225$4m5.727@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
1. An "angel" is a unique being.
san angel is not a 'being' it is a myth like gods, devils and satans
2. If you wish to define for your own use, music as something you enjoy,,
fine.
Try purposeful syncopation with pitch variation totally independent of words
or meaning.
Man can create such a thing and humans and non humans can be mesmerized by
it.
Non-humans can't create "music".
It is a question of degree. You need to allow for the fact that the random
process of evolution gave us freak brains.
Are you saying atheists have freak brains? ;-)
.
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| User: "Linda Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 08:14:27 PM |
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On Dec 31 2007, 3:06 pm, "Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com> wrote:
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy right
now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only humans
can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted to.
Angels are called "morning stars" in Job 38:7 and they're singing. Job
38:7 "When the morning stars sang together".
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 08:43:13 PM |
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"Linda Lee" <lindaleekeller.1@juno.com> wrote in message
news:4c8dd8bd-96a2-4ba2-909e-4d72ba14a784@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 31 2007, 3:06 pm, "Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com> wrote:
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right
now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans
can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
Angels are called "morning stars" in Job 38:7 and they're singing. Job
38:7 "When the morning stars sang together".
I don't see where the "morning stars" = "angel," Linda. Could you show me?
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| User: "vernono vernono@hereandthere" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 10:10:37 PM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:5TCej.72241$NL5.35051@trnddc05...
"Linda Lee" <lindaleekeller.1@juno.com> wrote in message
news:4c8dd8bd-96a2-4ba2-909e-4d72ba14a784@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 31 2007, 3:06 pm, "Diana" <diana...@noyoudont.com> wrote:
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47793c21$0$12752$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
<snip to>
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running
of
cattle is music to his ears.
If I didn't know that you liked me, I'd be tempted to get a mite testy
right
now. ;-)
Ok, we are going to have to have a definition of 'music.' It sounds to
me
that yours, by definition, includes the producer of it; that is, only
humans
can do it.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
Since "angel" means 'messenger,' I imagine that one could if one wanted
to.
Angels are called "morning stars" in Job 38:7 and they're singing. Job
38:7 "When the morning stars sang together".
I don't see where the "morning stars" = "angel," Linda. Could you show
me?
God can make anything sing.
Morning star was a disrespectful term in most contexts.
Angels can be messengers, they can go between heaven and earth, they can
appear as humans, they can appear and disappear AND one can be called SATAN.
They and Satan existed before man, maybe before earth.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 01:34:40 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:59:00 -0700, "vernono" <vernono@hereandthere>
wrote:
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:8H7ej.7477$ZI4.254@trnddc08...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have
very different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Not music. It's a language based on pitch.
Ah, yes! ^ ^ ^ The game we call "semantics."
I don't like that word you used! So if you don't use MY word(s),
you're wrong!
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do,"
then of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And
sing...and rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO,
of course.
Diana
Variation in pitch is NOT music.
Sounding "pretty" is not music.
Repetitive sequences is not dancing.
"Vern knows ALL!"
Yes, I know people say birds "sing".
Tell Yahweh that birds do not sing!
I'm sure He'd be very amused!
(Where do you get this stuff, vern?)
They also say Elephants "trumpet"
Neither can create music.
Yes I know that to a farmer, rain is music to his ears. The running of
cattle is music to his ears.
I suppose you didn't know that even angels do not sing.
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 01:32:49 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:12 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have very
different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do," then
of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Do not presume to correct Vernon!
He knows EVERYTHING!
I've known of Vern for some 6 years now- - give or take. I don't
recall him EVER being wrong-- EVER. Not about ANYTHING!
If you want to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING-- ANYTHING at all---
just ask vern.
(and if he happens to not know, he'll be happy to pretend he does!
;-)
Still, you are quite correct; it is a gift. We should dance. And
sing...and rejoice in our ability to express ourselves in this way. IMO,
of course.
Diana
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 02:07:37 PM |
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"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:5sgin35v24l9f0542m83o43ua571175aoj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:12 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have
very
different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do,"
then
of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Do not presume to correct Vernon!
He knows EVERYTHING!
I've known of Vern for some 6 years now- - give or take. I don't
recall him EVER being wrong-- EVER. Not about ANYTHING!
If you want to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING-- ANYTHING at all---
just ask vern.
(and if he happens to not know, he'll be happy to pretend he does!
;-)
Oh, john, shut up. SHEESH.
Rather than rail at the man and get snide, why don't we just find out what
his definition of 'song' or 'music,' IS?
.
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
31 Dec 2007 11:14:48 PM |
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"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:d_bej.6227$4m5.3465@trnddc02...
why don't we just find out what his definition of 'song' or 'music,' IS?
As a starting point, let me offer some standard definitions...
From Webster's:
Main Entry:
mu·sic
Pronunciation:
\'myü-zik\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
Middle English musik, from Anglo-French musike, from Latin musica, from
Greek mousike any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from
feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
Date:
13th century
1 a: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in
combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having
unity and continuity b: vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having
rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a: an agreeable sound : euphony <her voice was music to my ears>
b: musical quality <the music of verse>
3: a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4: the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5: a distinctive type or category of music
From Oxford English Dictionary online:
music
. noun 1 the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds in a pleasing
way. 2 the sound so produced. 3 the written or printed signs representing
such sound.
- PHRASES music to one's ears something very pleasant to hear or learn.
- ORIGIN Old French musique, from Greek mousike tekhne 'art of the Muses'.
Some scholarly Bible dictionaries and encyclopedias:
Music
Easton's Bible Dictionary
- Jubal was the inventor of musical instruments (Gen 4:21). The Hebrews were
much given to the cultivation of music. Their whole history and literature
afford abundant evidence of this. After the Deluge, the first mention of
music is in the account of Laban's interview with Jacob (Gen 31:27). After
their triumphal passage of the Red Sea, Moses and the children of Israel
sang their song of deliverance (Ex 15).
But the period of Samuel, David, and Solomon was the golden age of Hebrew
music, as it was of Hebrew poetry. Music was now for the first time
systematically cultivated. It was an essential part of training in the
schools of the prophets (1 Sam 10:5; 19:19-24; 2 Kings 3:15; 1 Chron 25:6).
There now arose also a class of professional singers (2 Sam 19:35; Eccl
2:8). The temple, however, was the great school of music. In the conducting
of its services large bands of trained singers and players on instruments
were constantly employed (2 Sam 6:5; 1 Chron 15:1; 16; 23; 5; 25:1-6).
In private life also music seems to have held an important place among the
Hebrews (Eccl 2:8; Amos 6:4-6; Isa 5:11,12; 24:8,9; Ps 137:1; Jer 48:33;
Luke 15:25).
MUSIC
Fausset's Bible Dictionary
(For illustrations see DANCE; DAVID; FLUTE; HARP; JEDUTHUN). Its invention
is due to a Cainite, Jubal son of Lamech, "father (first teacher) of all
such as handle the harp (lyre) and organ" (pipe). "The lyre and flute were
introduced by the brother of a nomadic herdsman (Jabal); it is in the
leisure of this occupation that music is generally first exercised and
appreciated" (Kalisch: Gen 4:21). "Mahalaleel," third from Seth, means
"giving praise to God," therefore vocal music in religious services was
probably earlier than instrumental music among the Cainites (Gen 5:12).
Laban the Syrian mentions "songs, tabret (tambourine), and harp" (Gen
31:27); Job (Job 21:12) "the timbrel (tambourine), harp, and organ (pipe)".
Instead of "they take," translated "they lift up (the voice)," as in Isa
42:11, to accompany "the tambourine," etc. (Umbrett.) Thus the "voice,"
stringed and wind instruments, include all kinds of music. The Israelite men
led by Moses sang in chorus, and Miriam led the women in singing the refrain
at each interval, accompanied by tambourine and dances (Ex 15:21). Music
rude and boisterous accompanied the dances in honor of the golden calf, so
that Joshua mistook it for "the noise of war," "the voice of them that shout
for the mastery and that cry for being overcome" (Ex 32:17-18). The
triumphant shout of the foe in the temple is similarly compared to the
joyous thanksgivings formerly offered there at solemn feasts, but how sad
the contrast as to the occasion (Lam 2:7). The two silver trumpets were used
by the priests to call an assembly, and for the journeying of the camps, and
on jubilant occasion (Num 10:1-10; 2 Chron 13:12). (On the rams' (rather
jubilee) HORNS of Josh 6, see.) The instruments at Nebuchadnezzar's
dedication of his golden image were the "cornet," like the French horn;
"flute" or pipe blown at the end by a mouthpiece; "sackbut," a triangular
stringed instrument with short strings, in a high sharp key; "psaltery," a
kind of harp; "dulcimer," a bagpipe, emitting a plaintive sound, a Hebraized
Greek word, sumfonia (Dan 3:4).
The schools of the prophets cultivated music as a study preparing the mind
for receiving spiritual influences (1 Sam 10:5; 19:19-20): at Naioth; also
at Jericho (2 Kings 2:5,7), "when the minstrel among Jehoshaphat's retinue
played, the hand of Jehovah came upon Elisha" (2 Kings 3:15); Gilgal (2
Kings 4:38); Jerusalem (2 Kings 22:14). "Singing men and women" were at
David's court (2 Sam 19:35), also at Solomon's (Eccles. 2:8: Gesenius
translated for "musical instruments and that of all sorts," shiddah
wªshidowt, "a princess and princesses"). They also" spoke of Josiah in their
lamentations, and made them an ordinance in Israel" (2 Chron 35:25). Music
was often introduced at banquets (Isa 5:12), "the harp and viol" (nebel, the
lute, an instrument with 12 strings), etc. (Luke 15:25.) Amos 6:5: "chant
(parat, 'mark distinct tones,' the Arabic root expresses an unmeaning
hurried flow of rhythmical sounds without much sense, as most glees) to the
sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music like
David"; they fancy themselves David's equals In music (1 Chron 23:5; Neh
12:36). He added to the temple service the stringed psaltery, kinowr
(lyre), and nebel (harp), besides the cymbals. These as distinguished from
the trumpets were "David's instruments" (2 Chron 29:25-26; 1 Chron
15:16,19-21,24; 23:5).
The age of Samuel, David, and Solomon was the golden one alike of poetry and
of music. The Hebrew use of music was inspirational, curative, and festive
or mournful. David's skill on the harp in youth brought him under Saul's
notice, and he played away Saul's melancholy under the evil spirit (1 Sam
16:16-23). As David elevated music to the praise of God, so the degenerate
Israelites of Amos' time degraded it to the service of their own sensuality
(like Nero fiddling when Rome was in flames), yet they defended their
luxurious passion for music by his example. Solomon's songs were a thousand
and five (1 Kings 4:32). In the procession accompanying the ark to Zion, the
Levites led by Chenaniah, "master of the song," played cornets, trumpets,
cymbals, psalteries, and harps, accompanying David's psalm composed for the
occasion (1 Chron 15; 16; 2 Sam 6:5). Of the 48,000 in the tribe 4,000
praised Jehovah on David's instruments (1 Chron 23:5-6). Heman led the
Kohathites, Asaph the Gershonites, and Ethan or Jeduthun the Merarites (1
Chron 15:17; 25:1-8). The "cunning" or skilled musicians were 288: 24
courses, 12 in each, headed by the 24 sons of Heman, Asaph, and Jeduthun.
The rest of the 4,000 were "scholars."
David's chant (1 Chron 16:34,41) was used for ages, and bore his name: at
the consecration of Solomon's temple (2 Chron 7:6); before Jehoshaphat's
army when marching against the Ammonite invaders, to the thanksgiving is
attributed God's giving of the victory, "when they began to sing and to
praise, Jehovah set ambushments against ... Ammon" (2 Chron 20:21-22),
compare in Abijah's victory over Jeroboam the priests' sounding of trumpets
(2 Chr. 13:12-24 ); at the laying the second temple's foundation (Ezra
3:10-11). Heman, Asaph, and Ethan played with cymbals of brass to mark the
time the more clearly, while the rest played on psalteries and harps (1
Chron 15:19; 16:5). The "singers" went first, "the damsels with timbrels" in
the middle, "the players on (stringed) instruments followed after" (Ps
68:25). In intelligent worship the word has precedence of ornamental
accompaniments (1 Cor 14:15); music must not drown but be subordinate to the
words and sense.
Amos (Amos 8:3) foretells the joyous "songs of the temple" should be changed
into "howlings." In Ps 87:7 translated "the players on pipes" or "flutes"
(Gesenius), but Hengstenberg, "dancers" (choleel); the future thanksgiving
of the redeemed heathen (1 Kings 1:40). Women were in the choir (1 Chron
13:8; 25:5-6; Ezra 2:65). The priests alone blew the trumpets in the
religious services (1 Chron 15:24; 16:6), but the people also at royal
proclamations (2 Kings 11:14). A hundred and twenty priests blew the
trumpets in unison with the Levite singers, in fine linen, at the dedication
of Solomon's temple (2 Chron 5:12-13; 7:6). So under Hezekiah in
resanctifying the temple (2 Chron 29:27-28). As the temple, altar, and
sacrifices were Jehovah's palace, table, and feasts, so the sacred music
answers to the melody usual at kings' banquets. The absence of music such as
accompanied bridal processions is made a feature of a curse being on the
land (Isa 24:8-9; Jer 7:34; Ezek 26:13). Judah's captors in vain called on
her singers to sing her national melodies, "songs of Zion," in Babylon. She
hung her harp on the willows of that marshy city, and abjured "mirth in a
strange land" (Ps 137:2-4). Away from Zion, God's seat, they were away from
joy. Love songs (Ps 45 title) as well as professional mourners' (Amos 5:16)
(see MOURNING) dirges were composed. Harlots attracted men by songs to the
guitar (Isa 23:15-16). The grape was gathered and trodden with joyous song
(Isa 16:10) (see HYMN). Music, instrumental and vocal, was all in unison,
not harmony, which was unknown to the ancients; the songs were all melodies,
choral and antiphonal, as Moses' and Miriam's song, and Nehemiah's musicians
in two responsive choirs at the dedication of the wall (Neh 12:40-42).
For "instruments of music" (Dan 6:18) translated "concubines." Xenophon's
picture of Darius as addicted to wine and women, without self control,
accords with Daniel's mention of his abstinence as something extraordinary.
In Ps 45:8 Gesenius translated for "whereby" (miniy, as in Ps 150:4), "out
of the ivory palaces the stringed instruments make thee glad"; Hengstenberg
shows this untenable, KJV is better. In 1 Sam 18:6 "instruments of music,"
shalishiym, is from shalowsh, "three," probably "triangles," invented in
Syria (Athenaeus, Deipnos, 4:175).
MUSIC
Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary
Vocal or instrumental sounds with rhythm, melody, and harmony. Music was
part of everyday life for the ancient Hebrew people. Music was a part of
family merrymaking, such as the homecoming party for the prodigal son (Luke
15:25). Music welcomed heroes and celebrated victories. Miriam and other
women sang, danced, and played timbrels when the Israelites miraculously
escaped the Egyptians (Ex 15:20), and the Song of Moses in Ex 15 is the
earliest recorded song in the Bible. Jephthah's daughter greeted him with
timbrels to celebrate his victory over the Ammonites (Judg 11:34). David's
triumph brought music (1 Sam 18:6).
Music was used in making war and crowning kings (Judg 7:18-20; 1 Kings
1:39-40; 2 Chron 20:28). Wartime music-making was apparently little more
than making noise, as in the fall of Jericho (Josh 6). There was music for
banquets and feasts (Isa 5:12; 24:8-9) and royal courts and harems (Eccl
2:8). The Bible gives examples of occupational songs (Jer 31:4-5), dirges
and laments (Matt 9:23), and cultic chants (Ex 28:34-35; Josh 6:4-20).
The Jews were apparently a very musical people. The Assyrian king,
Sennacherib, demanded as tribute from King Hezekiah of Judah male and female
Judean musicians-a most unusual ransom. Ps 137 relates that the Babylonians
demanded "songs of Zion" from the Israelites while they were in captivity
(v. 3). During the period between the testaments, Strabo, a Greek
geographer, called the female singers of Palestine the most musical in the
world.
Music in the Old Testament. The Bible indicates that Jubal was "the father
of all those who play the harp and flute" (Gen 4:21). But professional
musicians do not appear in the Bible before David's time. Even before
professional musicians became the norm during David's reign, the concept of
court musicians did exist. The young David was called to soothe Saul with
music (1 Sam 16:16-23). In this sense David was a minstrel (2 Kings 3:15) -
a player of stringed instruments.
The New Testament minstrels (Matt 9:23) were flute-players employed as
professional mourners. The transition from spontaneous music to professional
male musicians chiefly associated with organized religion was a natural one.
Israel's neighbors, Assyria and Egypt, had long had professional musicians.
In spite of God's command to avoid other cultures, Israel was nevertheless
strongly influenced by them-in music as well as religious practices.
Exactly how music was used in the tabernacle and Temple services is not
known. But scholars are certain that it accompanied sacrificial rites.
Sacrificial music was forbidden after the Romans destroyed the Temple in
A.D. 70. The Levites, Temple assistants responsible for the music, seem to
have kept this part of the service a secret.
David introduced music into the sanctuary worship. His son and successor
Solomon later retained it after the Temple was built (2 Sam 6:5; 1 Kings
10:12). Music must have been considered an important part of the service,
since Hezekiah and Josiah, the two reform kings, saw to it that music was
included in the reformation (2 Chron 29:25; 35:15).
Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun (Ethan) helped David set up the sanctuary
worship. Asaph headed a choir of singers and musicians who were stationed
before the ARK OF THE COVENANT in Jerusalem. Heman and Jeduthun had similar
choirs at the old tabernacle at Gibeon (1 Chron 16:4-6,39-42). These choirs
had 4,000 members (1 Chron 23:5); 288 of these were trained musicians who
directed the lesser-skilled musicians (1 Chron 25:7-8). All the musicians
were divided into 24 courses, each containing 12 skilled musicians. An
orchestra consisting of stringed instruments (harps and lyres) and cymbals
accompanied the singers (1 Chron 15:19-21).
Our greatest clue to Hebrew music lies in the Book of Psalms, the earliest
existing hymnbook. As hymns, these individual psalms were suitable for
chanting and singing in the worship of God.
The Bible gives a glimpse of musical terminology in the headings of the
Psalms which appear in the Hebrew language, the language in which the Old
Testament was originally written. Their meanings, however, are, to a large
extent, obscure. These meanings were apparently lost as early as 250 BC, the
approximate date of the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
Categories of psalm headings include the following:
Titles - These include titles such as "A Psalm [Hebrew, Mizmor] of" (Ps 87)
and "A Contemplation [Hebrew, Maschil] of" (Ps 78). Mizmor seems to mean "to
play, sing"; Maschil may indicate a meditation.
Directions for performance - Alamoth (Ps 46) may mean "for the flutes" or
for soprano voices. Sheminith (Ps 6; 12) suggests a melodic pattern, perhaps
an octave lower than Alamoth and, therefore, tenor or even bass. The NKJV
translates, "On an eight-stringed harp." Neginoth (Ps 4; 6; 54; 55; 61; 67;
76) is translated "stringed instruments" (NKJV), but in reference to most
psalms it probably means simply "a song." Mahalath (Ps 53) was probably a
choreographic direction. In Ps 88 Mahalath is coupled with Leannoth, the
uncertain meaning of which has been interpreted as "for singing
antiphonally."
Shiggaion (plural, Shiggionoth), a part of the Hebrew heading of Ps 7
probably referred to an erratic, enthusiastic ode or to a psalm of
lamentation. Higgayon (Ps 9:16) refers to a solemn sound and may indicate
soft music. The meaning of Muth Labben (Hebrew heading, Ps 9) is a mystery.
It may be a scribal error. If not, it may refer to a soprano melody for
masculine voices.
Cue words - The majority of the psalm titles contain cue words. They direct
the practice of setting new words to an old tune, an aspect of hymnology
still practiced today. Shoshannim, a Hebrew word which means "lilies,"
occurs in the titles of Ps 45 and 69 and in Ps 80 as Shoshannim Eduth,
"Lilies of testimony" and in Ps 60 as Shushan Eduth, "Lily of the
testimony." These expressions may have indicated the melody to which these
songs were to be sung. These kinds of cue words appear before Ps 22;
56:1-59:17; and 75, among others.
The heading Shir-hammaloth ("A Song of Ascents"; Latin, cantus graduum)
above Ps 120-134 has several interpretations. The most common are: (1) These
15 psalms were sung by Levites standing on the 15 steps between the court of
the women and the court of the Israelites; and (2) These 15 psalms were sung
at three pilgrimage festivals. The second explanation is more probable.
Selah - This word occurs 71 times in the Book of Psalms (also Hab 3:3,9,13).
Scholars agree that the term is a musical direction of some sort, but they
are not agreed on what the direction is. It may mean: (1) an interlude-a
pause in the singing while the orchestra continues; (2) the equivalent of
today's "Amen"; as such it would separate psalms or sections of psalms which
have different liturgical purposes; and (3) an acrostic which means "a
change of voices" or "repeat."
Music in the New Testament. The New Testament contains little information
about music. But it does give some additional hymns to add to the Old
Testament hymns-those of Mary (Luke 1:46-55) and Zacharias (Luke 1:68-79) -
the Magnificat and the Benedictus. Early Christians sang Hebrew songs
accompanied by music (2 Chron 29:27-28). The apostle Paul refers to "psalms
and hymns and spiritual songs" (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16). Matt 26:30 records that
Christ and His disciples sang a hymn after the Passover supper, probably the
second half of the HALLEL, or Ps 115-118.
The New Testament also contains accounts of the early Christians singing
hymns for worship and comfort (Acts 16:25; Eph 5:19; Col 3:16). Some
fragments of early Christian hymns also appear in the New Testament (Eph
5:14; 1 Tim 3:16). Pliny the Younger, at the beginning of the second
century A.D., reported that Christians sang songs about Christ and their
faith in Him.
MUSIC
The New Unger's Bible Dictionary
Music was a prominent art in ancient biblical times and played a vital role
both in Israel and adjacent lands.
Vocal. Hebrew music was primarily vocal. The lyre was an instrument commonly
used to accompany the human voice. When singing first appears in the Bible,
it is as a familiar part of merrymaking in connection with sending away
guests and loved ones (Gen 31:27). As a religious ceremony, vocal music
first appears in Ex 15:1,20 in the antiphonal song led by Miriam in
celebration of the passage through the Red Sea. Two other responsive songs
are probably found in Ps 136 and 1 Sam 18:7. The digging of the well
("Beer") was celebrated by a song (Num 21:17-18). Moses taught Israel some
of his last warnings in a song (Deut 32:1-4). Deborah and Barak celebrated
their triumph in song (Judg 5). David was received with song by Israel's
women after his victory over Goliath (1 Sam 18:6-7). Barzillai mentioned
"singing men and women" among social pleasures (2 Sam 19:35). Solomon was a
song writer, composing 1,005 songs (1 Kings 4:32). Singing was common in
ancient Israel. David's trained choir numbered 288. It continued under
Solomon (2 Chron 5:12-13; 9:11), Jehoshaphat (20:21-22), Joash (23:13,18),
Hezekiah (29:27-30), Josiah and after him (35:15,25), Ezra (Ezra 2:41; 3:11;
7:24) and Nehemiah (Neh 7:44; 10:28; etc.). The "songs of Zion" were famous
(cf. Ps 137:3).
Instrumental. Instrumental music as well as vocal was common in ancient
Israel. Saul was influenced by it (1 Sam 10:5), and David's skill in playing
upon the lyre had a profound effect upon Saul when he was demonized (16:23).
David was not only a great warrior but a skilled musician and singer.
Instrumental music certainly figured largely in Solomon's Temple (1 Chron
25). "Male and female musicians" are specifically mentioned in the prism of
Sennacherib (691 BC) as being part of the tribute the Judean Hezekiah had to
render to Sennacherib. These musicians were certainly not mediocre to be
mentioned in connection with the Assyrian court. In Elisha's day a minstrel
was easily procurable (2 Kings 3:15). At the time of the Exile, the
Israelites are said to have hung their harps on the trees and refused to
sing the songs of Zion (Ps 137). Instrumental music and singing were common
in the postexilic period (Ezra 3:10-11; Neh 12:27-47).
Tambourine, Timbrel, Tabret. The Heb. top is most often translated
"tambourine," sometimes "timbrel." The KJV often uses the term "tabret."
Some scholars think it was a drum, like a tom-tom, made "of a wooden hoop
and very probably two skins, without any jingling contrivance or sticks"
(see Kurt Sachs, A History of Musical Instruments [1940]; Sol B. Finesinger,
"Musical Instruments in the O.T.," Hebrew Union College Annual 3 [1926]:
21-75). It was associated with merrymaking or praise (cf. Ex 15:20; Judg
11:34; 1 Sam 18:6; Ps 68:25). This instrument played an important part from
patriarchal times through the period of the restoration.
Lyre, Harp, Lute, Psaltery, Trigon, Stringed Instrument, Sackbut(?). The
main Heb. word for this kind of instrument is kinnor, which is translated
"lyre" and "harp" (1 Chron 13:8; Neh 12:27; Isa 23:16). By its translation
in the LXX and the Vulgate, kinnor may be definitely identified as a species
of lyre and was called kithara by the Greeks and Romans.
Several archaeological illustrations give a good idea of what the Israelite
lyre was. On a Beni Hasan monument to be dated around 1900 BC, one of the
Semites entering Egypt is depicted performing on a lyre. Inasmuch as lyres
were unknown in ancient Egypt in Old-Kingdom monuments, they were introduced
by Asiatics coming from Palestine. According to rabbinic sources, to make
the lyre strings the small intestines of sheep were stretched across a
sounding board over a blank space and attached to a crossbar. The performer
apparently drew a plectrum across the strings with his right hand and
deadened the strings with his left. Pictures on Assyrian monuments portray
the lyre in similar fashion, as on the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III and
the musicians appearing before Sennacherib at Lachish, although the players
in this case seem to be drawing the index fingers over the strings instead
of using a plectrum. David played with his hand before Saul (1 Sam 16:23).
Another Heb. term often translated "harp" is nebel (Ps 33:2; 144:9; Amos
6:5). The KJV also renders this word "psaltery" and "viol"; the NIV, "lyre"
or simply "musical instrument." The word normally means "a skin bottle," but
in twenty-seven cases it refers to a musical instrument. The LXX and Vulg.
both often translate this term "psaltery." Since the psaltery is plainly a
harp, which has more and longer strings than the lyre, and since this
instrument was common both in Egypt and Mesopotamia from very ancient times,
the Hebrew instrument seems to be therefore correctly defined as a harp. The
rabbinic tradition asserts that the harp was called nebel because it was
shaped like a skin bottle, the body being rounded out and covered with skin.
Qitros, a Heb. word of Gk. origin, is translated "lyre" (Dan 3:5,7,10,15;
"harp," KJV). `Asor, a Heb. form that literally means "ten," is used
together with nebel (Ps 33:2; 144:9), translated "harp of ten strings." When
used alone (Ps 92:3) it is translated "ten-stringed lute" (NASB) or
"instrument of ten strings" (KJV, NIV). Sachs considers this instrument to
be a zither of ten strings. Phoenicians played this instrument, but
apparently it was not used in Egypt or Mesopotamia.
Pesanterin is a transliteration from the Gk. found only in Dan 3:5,7,10,15
and translated "psaltery," a kind of harp or lyre (so NIV). In this same
Daniel passage, the Aram. word sabbeka' is translated "trigon," probably
referring to a small triangular harp of four or more strings and a high
pitch. Some claim it may have been a large, many-stringed harp. In either
case, it was not a "sackbut" (KJV), which was probably a wind instrument.
Minnim is translated "stringed instruments" in its few occurrences (Ps 45:8;
150:4) and probably refers to another form of harp, if not simply a generic
term.
Trumpet, Horn, Cornet. Trumpets consisted of the horn (qeren) of the ram or
goat. This term is used scores of times in the OT for either animal anatomy
or musical instruments made from animal parts (Dan 3:5,7,10,15; "cornet,"
KJV) as the context dictates. Most often, "trumpet(s)" is the translation of
shopar, the Heb. word referring to a ram's horn wind instrument. It was used
for giving of signals for war, as in the case of Joshua, Ehud, Gideon, and
Joab. It announced the year of Jubilee and also approaching danger (Jer 4:5;
Ezek 33:3; Joel 2:1). It heralded the appearance of the new moon and full
moon (Ps 81:3).
Another type of trumpet was of metal. Moses was instructed to prepare two
trumpets of silver (Num 10:2). These were called hasosera (Neh 12:35; Ps
98:6) and were in pairs, as Moses' two trumpets and the two trumpets on the
Arch of Titus, as well as on Jewish coins. Doubtless two priests blew on the
trumpets simultaneously.
The Heb. word yobel is sometimes translated "horn" (Ex 19:13) or "trumpet,"
but most often "jubilee," signifying the festival introduced by this
trumpet's prolonged blast. Taqoa` is "trumpet" (Ezek 7:14).
Flute, Pipe, Organ. The flute referred to in Nebuchadnezzar's band (Dan
3:5,7,10,15) is from the Heb. mashroqi, which was often used as a whistle.
It could also refer to any of the instruments of wood that were blown. The
term `ugab was probably a kind of flute that was later used to describe
woodwind instruments in general. It is translated "flute" (Job 21:12) and
"pipe" (Gen 4:21; "flute," NIV); "organ" in both places by the KJV. The word
halil ("pipe," KJV) is commonly considered to be a flute and is so
translated by the NASB and the NIV (Isa 30:29; Jer 48:36). Sachs, however,
considers it to be an oboe since at the time the instrument appears (the era
of Saul) the double oboe was in common vogue. It too may have been used at
times for woodwind instruments in general.
Flutes occur in prehistoric, Old Kingdom, and Middle Kingdom Egyptian
drawings. It is inconceivable to think the flute was not known among the
Israelites, being simply a reed indented with holes and blown. Flutes are
still common in the Middle East.
Cymbals. The Heb. words for cymbals are onomatopoetic (names that imitate
the instruments' sounds). The more common is mesiltayim (1 Chron 15:16,19;
Ezra 3:10; etc.). The other is selselim (2 Sam 6:5; Ps 150:5). Cymbals are
seen on Assyrian reliefs where two types appear: one is beaten horizontally;
one, vertically. This instrument occurs for the first time in the list of
instruments upon which David played on the occasion of bringing up the Ark
of God to Jerusalem from the house of Abinadab.
Castanets, Cornet. The Heb. term mena`ana` is translated "castanets" in its
only occurrence (2 Sam 6:5; "cornets," KJV; "sistrums," NIV). The word is
derived from a root verb meaning to shake. Sachs and Finesinger are both of
the opinion that this instrument was the sistrum, an instrument common in
Egypt and early Babylonia. It was a rattle-type noisemaker composed of a
handle with a metal loop at one end. The metal circle was perforated by
holes through which wires were positioned and loosely secured by bent ends.
These wires jingled when the instrument was shaken. Excavations at Bethel in
1934 yielded a sistrum containing a carving of the Egyptian goddess Hathor.
Bagpipe, Dulcimer. The Aram. word, sum- ponya, found in the Bible only in
Dan 3:5,7,10,15, is best translated "bagpipe," a wind instrument, rather
than "dulcimer" (KJV), a stringed instrument.
Generic "Instruments." Shalishim (1 Sam 18:6) and keli (2 Chron 23:13) are
both general terms simply translated "instruments of music."
It should be noted that the verses from Dan 3, so often referred to in
earlier paragraphs, list six instruments found in Babylon. In this list
qeren (horn) and mashroqi (flute) are Semitic. The other four are of Gk.
derivation: qitros (lyre); sabbeka (trigon); pesanterin (psaltery). The
Greek influence in Babylonian linguistics is accountable by early commercial
connections between Greece and Assyria long before Daniel's time.
What sort of music scale the Hebrews used or how their music sounded is not
known for certain. Authorities such as Sachs speculate that the scale was
pentatonic.
BIBLIOGRAPHY: C. H. Cornill, Music in the Old Testament (1909); J. Stainer,
The Music of the Bible (1914); S. B. Finesinger, Hebrew Union College Annual
3 (1926): 21-75; K. Sachs, A History of Musical Instruments (1940); P.
Gradenwitz, The Music of Israel (1949); A. Z. Idelsohn, Jewish Music in Its
Historical Development (1967); R. K. Harrison, New International Dictionary
of Biblical Archaeology (1983), pp. 322-23.
---
Hopefully this might aid in future posts on the topic.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 06:39:37 PM |
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"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:flci89$qnf$1@news.utelfla.com...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:d_bej.6227$4m5.3465@trnddc02...
why don't we just find out what his definition of 'song' or 'music,' IS?
As a starting point, let me offer some standard definitions...
From Webster's:
Main Entry:
mu·sic
Pronunciation:
\'myü-zik\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
Middle English musik, from Anglo-French musike, from Latin musica, from
Greek mousike any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from
feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
Date:
13th century
1 a: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in
combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having
unity and continuity b: vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having
rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a: an agreeable sound : euphony <her voice was music to my ears>
b: musical quality <the music of verse>
3: a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4: the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5: a distinctive type or category of music
<snip for server space>
You posted such a long reply for such a frivolous and fleeting subject?
And you posted it twice?
Now we know why the internet is starting to become so congested.
Over zealous religious folk have gotten a hold of it.
--
Andrew W.
Belief and faith should not be coerced. Everyone should come to the truth
naturally in their own time. That is free will and free choice. When belief
and faith are coerced with threats of punishment and damnation then the
messenger is from the dark side. ~ anonymous.
You must unlearn what you have learned. ~ Yoda
Channelled lessons about ET's, ascended masters like Jesus Christ, spirit
guides, earth changes.
http://www.spiritnexus.com/audio/channeling/index.htm
The true Creator wants us to be happy and abundant.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Getting_Rich
Audio version. http://website.lineone.net/~cornerstone/richaudio.htm
Think you know what ego is? Think again. The Bible is full of it!
http://www.acim.org/
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 11:12:46 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:07:37 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:5sgin35v24l9f0542m83o43ua571175aoj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:12 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God. No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have
very
different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do,"
then
of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Do not presume to correct Vernon!
He knows EVERYTHING!
I've known of Vern for some 6 years now- - give or take. I don't
recall him EVER being wrong-- EVER. Not about ANYTHING!
If you want to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING-- ANYTHING at all---
just ask vern.
(and if he happens to not know, he'll be happy to pretend he does!
;-)
Oh, john, shut up. SHEESH.
^ ^ ^ I was joking, you're just plain being nasty.
killfiled.
Rather than rail at the man and get snide, why don't we just find out what
his definition of 'song' or 'music,' IS?
You assume on me every time you reply to me.
You just did again.
You, like many other PRETENDERS, just want to be right all the
time.
.
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| User: "Diana" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 12:13:08 PM |
|
|
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:n1tkn3dth3cauiamu4v1qs6ip5qjrt7nuc@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:07:37 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:5sgin35v24l9f0542m83o43ua571175aoj@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:14:12 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:4778435e$0$12732$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com> wrote in message
news:9mWdj.5689$4m5.4189@trnddc02...
"vernono" <vernono@hereandthere> wrote in message
news:47781b6d$0$12795$7836cce5@newsrazor.net...
"Ted J L" <publicmien@yahoo.com.INV> wrote in message
news:ByUdj.41252$G23.16200@newsreading01.news.tds.net...
[ The following excerpt is by Pastor Tim Spitsbergen, Bible Baptist
Church, P.O. Box 4, Rosebush, MI 48878. It was first printed in
O Timothy magazine, Volume 8, Issue 1, 1991. A link to the full
article given at the end of the excerpt. ]
"In 1915 one of the greatest evangelists of all time, Billy Sunday,
preached a message against ballroom dancing.
An idiot
Music and the ability to dance is one of the unique gifts of God.
No
other mamal or living being was given that gift.
Many other animals dance. Many other animals perform to rythm.
Absolutely NONE.
Whales even compose.
To us or you, maybe, but they don't in the slightest.
Pretty is not dance and music.
My goodness, such adamant opinions. The fact that humpback whales have
very
different songs, one to another, and that they teach them to each
other---this means nothing?
Of course, if your definition of "song" is "something only humans do,"
then
of course there can be no argument. It's also a tad circular.
Do not presume to correct Vernon!
He knows EVERYTHING!
I've known of Vern for some 6 years now- - give or take. I don't
recall him EVER being wrong-- EVER. Not about ANYTHING!
If you want to know ANYTHING about ANYTHING-- ANYTHING at all---
just ask vern.
(and if he happens to not know, he'll be happy to pretend he does!
;-)
Oh, john, shut up. SHEESH.
^ ^ ^ I was joking, you're just plain being nasty.
killfiled.
ooh, I won I won I won!!!
I have this really sensitive 'thing,' about emoticons and such; some people
think that they can say the nastiest, most insulting things imaginable, and
that inserting 'I'm just kidding" or putting a smiley face at the end of it
excuses them from all responsibility for the hurt they cause; like an adult
"king's X."
I don't buy it. An insult is an insult, and "I'm joking!" doesn't fix it.
Indeed, if you think you have to let people KNOW that you are joking,
then...you should probably think again.
Rather than rail at the man and get snide, why don't we just find out what
his definition of 'song' or 'music,' IS?
You assume on me every time you reply to me.
You just did again.
You, like many other PRETENDERS, just want to be right all the
time.
Y'know, john, we both have the same perspective when we speak to each other.
I look at you and see you...and when you look at me, you see you, too.
Have a very nice life, sweetie. Get better.
.
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| User: "CB" |
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| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 06:56:13 PM |
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On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:13:08 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
killfiled.
ooh, I won I won I won!!!
right.
he has you killfiled for no more than 5 minutes :)
.
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| User: "Diana" |
|
| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 07:19:55 PM |
|
|
"CB" <country2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i7oln3d7gn21png6b8hcd8bvn2g6n50n6h@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:13:08 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
killfiled.
ooh, I won I won I won!!!
right.
he has you killfiled for no more than 5 minutes :)
Was it that long? Really?
.
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| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: Should Christians Dance? |
01 Jan 2008 04:23:19 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:13:08 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:n1tkn3dth3cauiamu4v1qs6ip5qjrt7nuc@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:07:37 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion | | | | | | | | | |
