| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"David W. Barnes" |
| Date: |
10 Dec 2004 08:39:21 PM |
| Object: |
Sound Familiar? |
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders
of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple
matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the
country to greater danger."
No - it isn't the Republicans, or the White House. It was Herman
Goering at the Nuremberg trials.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 10:36:40 PM |
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Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes
America is inconsistent on this one. What if a woman decides to keep the
child,
and the *father* does not want it? Does he have the right to avoid the both of
them for the rest of his life? No.
Which only proves the emphasis is on the woman's use of her body, as it
should be.
You're talking about existing law! I think existing law is wrong. Laws change.
Prohibition was the law of the land too. That didn't *actually* make drinking a
sin, just illegal.
Just the same, just because the law says this is legal, doesn't make it right.
Just because you have issues with women doesn't make you right.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 02:00:09 AM |
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Ray Fischer bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes
BTW. I believe that the abortion issue is a matter of faith and that the
Constitution prohibits legislating faith in the First ammendment.
So you believe all one has to do is claim an issue is a matter of faith
to get around the law? Besides, this isn't "legislating faith."
You misunderstand me. I think we do *not* have the right to outlaw abortion as
a function of the 1st Ammendment.
The fundamental question, IMHO, is "is this the killing of an innocent?" I
think it is.
You think wrong. In fact, the basic premise of your argument, that
abortion is about killing, is incorrect. It's nothing but pro-lie
propaganda. Abortion is about the right to decide how your own body
is used.
It's one of those awful situations where one person's inalienable
rights rub up against another's.
There is no right to use another person's body. You are arguing a
fiction.
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position, are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I think "zygote" is as valid a phase of life as "teenager."
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 09:20:04 PM |
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In article <rmrvr0p2bpmmf7v63g9bou3uldovmn8nba@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes
BTW. I believe that the abortion issue is a matter of faith and that the
Constitution prohibits legislating faith in the First ammendment.
So you believe all one has to do is claim an issue is a matter of faith
to get around the law? Besides, this isn't "legislating faith."
You misunderstand me. I think we do *not* have the right to outlaw abortion
as
a function of the 1st Ammendment.
The fundamental question, IMHO, is "is this the killing of an innocent?" I
think it is.
You think wrong. In fact, the basic premise of your argument, that
abortion is about killing, is incorrect. It's nothing but pro-lie
propaganda. Abortion is about the right to decide how your own body
is used.
It's one of those awful situations where one person's inalienable
rights rub up against another's.
There is no right to use another person's body. You are arguing a
fiction.
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position,
are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I think "zygote" is as valid a phase of life as "teenager."
I don't. How about an egg?
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 02:03:33 AM |
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David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <rmrvr0p2bpmmf7v63g9bou3uldovmn8nba@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes
BTW. I believe that the abortion issue is a matter of faith and that the
Constitution prohibits legislating faith in the First ammendment.
So you believe all one has to do is claim an issue is a matter of faith
to get around the law? Besides, this isn't "legislating faith."
You misunderstand me. I think we do *not* have the right to outlaw abortion
as
a function of the 1st Ammendment.
The fundamental question, IMHO, is "is this the killing of an innocent?" I
think it is.
You think wrong. In fact, the basic premise of your argument, that
abortion is about killing, is incorrect. It's nothing but pro-lie
propaganda. Abortion is about the right to decide how your own body
is used.
It's one of those awful situations where one person's inalienable
rights rub up against another's.
There is no right to use another person's body. You are arguing a
fiction.
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position,
are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I think "zygote" is as valid a phase of life as "teenager."
I don't. How about an egg?
A fertilized egg? ;^) Yes. There is cellular mitosis, there is all the code for
a developed human being within.
I'm not saying menstruation is a killing of an innocent. :^)
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 11:05:20 PM |
|
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Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
Ray Fischer
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
The fundamental question, IMHO, is "is this the killing of an innocent?" I
think it is.
You think wrong. In fact, the basic premise of your argument, that
abortion is about killing, is incorrect. It's nothing but pro-lie
propaganda. Abortion is about the right to decide how your own body
is used.
It's one of those awful situations where one person's inalienable
rights rub up against another's.
There is no right to use another person's body. You are arguing a
fiction.
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position, are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I understand yours all too well. You're an anti-woman control freak
who thinks that female sexuality must be punished and suppressed.
Any woman who gets pregnant must be made to suffer the consequences
you choose.
And I've heard all the excuses. You'll tell me that you really are
concerned about human life and I'll demonstrate to you that that claim
is a lie.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 02:04:17 AM |
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Ray Fischer bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
Ray Fischer
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
The fundamental question, IMHO, is "is this the killing of an innocent?" I
think it is.
You think wrong. In fact, the basic premise of your argument, that
abortion is about killing, is incorrect. It's nothing but pro-lie
propaganda. Abortion is about the right to decide how your own body
is used.
It's one of those awful situations where one person's inalienable
rights rub up against another's.
There is no right to use another person's body. You are arguing a
fiction.
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position, are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I understand yours all too well. You're an anti-woman control freak
who thinks that female sexuality must be punished and suppressed.
Any woman who gets pregnant must be made to suffer the consequences
you choose.
And I've heard all the excuses. You'll tell me that you really are
concerned about human life and I'll demonstrate to you that that claim
is a lie.
***** you. You understand someone else's opinion. You haven't made the first
attempt to understand mine.
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 10:36:10 PM |
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Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
Ray Fischer
Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
Like I said man, same planet, different worlds. I understand your position, are
you truly trying to understand mine?
I understand yours all too well. You're an anti-woman control freak
who thinks that female sexuality must be punished and suppressed.
Any woman who gets pregnant must be made to suffer the consequences
you choose.
And I've heard all the excuses. You'll tell me that you really are
concerned about human life and I'll demonstrate to you that that claim
is a lie.
***** you.
The inevitable response of a pro-liar hypocrite when they're exposed
for what they are.
You understand someone else's opinion. You haven't made the first
attempt to understand mine.
I understand yours perfectly well. You consider sex to be dirty, a
sin, immoral, a crime, and you want to make sure that women who have
sex are made to suffer.
You've written as much several times. What you have NOT written is
anything even remotely resembling a request or argument for HELPING
anybody.
You want to punish women.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
13 Dec 2004 04:58:51 AM |
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Gactimus bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0kunr09dnev0aifcm7b30kjh5e1pudll5u@4ax.com:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot
flames, and screamed...
Finally, do you really think the
agenda put foward by the liberals is what is best for America?
Absolutely. The agenda put forward by liberals IS America.
I don't know that the agenda put forth by what Republicans *call*
liberals is any good. I think in many places it isn't.
What I do know is that America was founded on Liberalism,
Which has nothing in common with modern liberalism.
It has nothing to do with many of those who have been labelled liberals, yes. I
don't like being put in the same camp as John Kerry. I look to the dictionary
and look up the word liberal and it represents me. The modern appellation of
"liberal," as determined by the Republican propaganda machine, is a misnomer.
tolerance and a belief in the exercise of free will, and that now it is
a naughty word.
Only because modern liberals have made it so.
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is *extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power brokers
don't want dissent.
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
13 Dec 2004 09:15:28 PM |
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In article <matqr0h147gbs4jeb29ep8nvd64bhosg3j@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
Gactimus bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames, and
screamed...
Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0kunr09dnev0aifcm7b30kjh5e1pudll5u@4ax.com:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot
flames, and screamed...
Finally, do you really think the
agenda put foward by the liberals is what is best for America?
Absolutely. The agenda put forward by liberals IS America.
I don't know that the agenda put forth by what Republicans *call*
liberals is any good. I think in many places it isn't.
What I do know is that America was founded on Liberalism,
Which has nothing in common with modern liberalism.
It has nothing to do with many of those who have been labelled liberals, yes.
I
don't like being put in the same camp as John Kerry. I look to the dictionary
and look up the word liberal and it represents me. The modern appellation of
"liberal," as determined by the Republican propaganda machine, is a misnomer.
If you are liberal, be proud of it. We created this country and
constantly fight to keep America free.
tolerance and a belief in the exercise of free will, and that now it is
a naughty word.
Only because modern liberals have made it so.
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is *extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
14 Dec 2004 07:22:06 AM |
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David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is *extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment. I believe God gave us the power to choose and that God will deal
with those who choose incorrectly as he sees fit. I am choosing an opinion that
if you have sex you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences, others
are choosing to promote and foment death. IMHO, the other side is going out on
a limb here.
If it were up to me, it would be murder. It's not. Aren't you glad I hate
politics? ;^)
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
|
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
14 Dec 2004 09:52:10 PM |
|
|
In article <f1qtr0hn9rdjinl2gbc6gfv57uvl1e8f8t@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is
*extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment.
Why should abortion be illegal, even if God opposes it? Wouldn't God
want people to choose for themselves? What is the point of free will
and sin if we force people to be "sin free?" If you WANT to sin but
the law keeps you from sinning, are you not a sinner?
I believe God gave us the power to choose and that God will deal
with those who choose incorrectly as he sees fit. I am choosing an opinion
that
if you have sex you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences, others
are choosing to promote and foment death. IMHO, the other side is going out on
a limb here.
If it were up to me, it would be murder. It's not. Aren't you glad I hate
politics? ;^)
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 01:57:58 AM |
|
|
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <f1qtr0hn9rdjinl2gbc6gfv57uvl1e8f8t@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is
*extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment.
Why should abortion be illegal, even if God opposes it? Wouldn't God
want people to choose for themselves? What is the point of free will
and sin if we force people to be "sin free?" If you WANT to sin but
the law keeps you from sinning, are you not a sinner?
I am flawed and I am a sinner, yet I can easily say that killing someone with
malice aforethought is 1st degree murder and wrong. I leave divine judgement up
to God on that one, but human judgement and general consensus says that it's
wrong and it has to be stopped. I support human law. Free will does not extend
to infringing upon the rights of others. Rights versus rights cases are very
common these days because we've settled a lot of the obvious stuff.
I believe separation of church and state, the divine and the secular, is a
critical concept of human law.
I believe God gave us the power to choose and that God will deal
with those who choose incorrectly as he sees fit. I am choosing an opinion
that
if you have sex you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences, others
are choosing to promote and foment death. IMHO, the other side is going out on
a limb here.
If it were up to me, it would be murder. It's not. Aren't you glad I hate
politics? ;^)
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
I dunno. Adoption? This is not an easy issue to sort out, but Pro-Lifers and
Pro-choicers aren't even on the same planet right now. Hence, the "Pro-Lie"
post from Ray Fischer that I am somehow dealing out punishment for sex. I don't
think someone should be punished for sex, I just think "zygote" is as valid a
state of life as "toddler," and if you bungee jump, you had better be ready to
land on your head when the cord breaks, without negligence of course.
I occured to me after I posted that my opinion that the mother has made a
choice and will not deal with the consequences completely fails to apply in
cases of rape. I have no clear sight on that one. I lean towards abortion being
legal in rape cases because the thought of foisting a child upon someone in
such a violent manner is disgusting, but it equally pits the right to life of
the child and the mother. Neither of them asked to be in the situation. There
is indeed a time for every purpose under heaven.
Flip a coin I guess. ;^)
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
.
|
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 09:20:05 PM |
|
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In article <a3rvr0tguujm25mb0jgtpudvgne05q500k@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <f1qtr0hn9rdjinl2gbc6gfv57uvl1e8f8t@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot
flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is
*extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I
think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment.
Why should abortion be illegal, even if God opposes it? Wouldn't God
want people to choose for themselves? What is the point of free will
and sin if we force people to be "sin free?" If you WANT to sin but
the law keeps you from sinning, are you not a sinner?
I am flawed and I am a sinner, yet I can easily say that killing someone with
malice aforethought is 1st degree murder and wrong. I leave divine judgement
up
to God on that one, but human judgement and general consensus says that it's
wrong and it has to be stopped.
If human judgment said that those humans would stop. As for the
consensus, the consensus what things to stay as they are.
I support human law. Free will does not extend
to infringing upon the rights of others. Rights versus rights cases are very
common these days because we've settled a lot of the obvious stuff.
I believe separation of church and state, the divine and the secular, is a
critical concept of human law.
I believe God gave us the power to choose and that God will deal
with those who choose incorrectly as he sees fit. I am choosing an opinion
that
if you have sex you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences,
others
are choosing to promote and foment death. IMHO, the other side is going
out on
a limb here.
If it were up to me, it would be murder. It's not. Aren't you glad I hate
politics? ;^)
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
I dunno. Adoption?
Do you adopt? Most people who advocate adoption refuse to adopt.
This is not an easy issue to sort out, but Pro-Lifers and
Pro-choicers aren't even on the same planet right now. Hence, the "Pro-Lie"
post from Ray Fischer that I am somehow dealing out punishment for sex. I
don't
think someone should be punished for sex, I just think "zygote" is as valid a
state of life as "toddler," and if you bungee jump, you had better be ready to
land on your head when the cord breaks, without negligence of course.
I believe, as I think Ray does, that the reason most people believe
abortion should be illegal is because it is viewed as a way to punish
them for having sex "irresponsibly." That is, these "pro-lifers" think
women are out there having "promiscuous sex" (whatever that means) and
"getting away with it" because they can always have an abortion.
I occured to me after I posted that my opinion that the mother has made a
choice and will not deal with the consequences completely fails to apply in
cases of rape. I have no clear sight on that one. I lean towards abortion
being
legal in rape cases because the thought of foisting a child upon someone in
such a violent manner is disgusting, but it equally pits the right to life of
the child and the mother. Neither of them asked to be in the situation. There
is indeed a time for every purpose under heaven.
Flip a coin I guess. ;^)
Let the person most impacted decode. The woman. Kind of practical,
don't you think?
.
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| User: "Zaghadka" |
|
| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 02:18:03 AM |
|
|
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <a3rvr0tguujm25mb0jgtpudvgne05q500k@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <f1qtr0hn9rdjinl2gbc6gfv57uvl1e8f8t@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot
flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is
*extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I
think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment.
Why should abortion be illegal, even if God opposes it? Wouldn't God
want people to choose for themselves? What is the point of free will
and sin if we force people to be "sin free?" If you WANT to sin but
the law keeps you from sinning, are you not a sinner?
I am flawed and I am a sinner, yet I can easily say that killing someone with
malice aforethought is 1st degree murder and wrong. I leave divine judgement
up
to God on that one, but human judgement and general consensus says that it's
wrong and it has to be stopped.
If human judgment said that those humans would stop. As for the
consensus, the consensus what things to stay as they are.
I respect the law. I can't stand Bush either, in fact, IMHO, his first term was
illegitimate. I also vote and advocate. I believe this should be changed.
I support human law. Free will does not extend
to infringing upon the rights of others. Rights versus rights cases are very
common these days because we've settled a lot of the obvious stuff.
I believe separation of church and state, the divine and the secular, is a
critical concept of human law.
I believe God gave us the power to choose and that God will deal
with those who choose incorrectly as he sees fit. I am choosing an opinion
that
if you have sex you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences,
others
are choosing to promote and foment death. IMHO, the other side is going
out on
a limb here.
If it were up to me, it would be murder. It's not. Aren't you glad I hate
politics? ;^)
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
I dunno. Adoption?
Do you adopt? Most people who advocate adoption refuse to adopt.
I already have two children, but yes, I think you're right. Pro-lifers should
adopt if they can. If they really believe their own *****. I couldn't afford
another child. I can't afford two. :^)
This is not an easy issue to sort out, but Pro-Lifers and
Pro-choicers aren't even on the same planet right now. Hence, the "Pro-Lie"
post from Ray Fischer that I am somehow dealing out punishment for sex. I
don't
think someone should be punished for sex, I just think "zygote" is as valid a
state of life as "toddler," and if you bungee jump, you had better be ready to
land on your head when the cord breaks, without negligence of course.
I believe, as I think Ray does, that the reason most people believe
abortion should be illegal is because it is viewed as a way to punish
them for having sex "irresponsibly." That is, these "pro-lifers" think
women are out there having "promiscuous sex" (whatever that means) and
"getting away with it" because they can always have an abortion.
Look at it from the reverse angle. There are only two limits on sexual
promiscuity, both of them grave. STDs and pregnancy. Now, an STD is a bacteria
and no one is saying bacteria is going to become sentient life, so treatment
for such is fine.
However, the other creates a life, IMO. If we let that life be terminated so
casually, you open a Pandora's box where irresponsible promiscuity (I don't
want to use a condom because it feels better that way) is condoned at the
expense of the deaths of thousands.
Many pro-lifers *are* in fact saying, if you abstained you wouldn't be pregnant
stupid. They are the same people saying AIDS is a punishment from God. This is
an absurd and violent viewpoint.
However, we can not allow complete stupidity to be enabled by casual death.
It's immoral and unethical. I do not side with those who think ejaculation is a
sin. I think killing is wrong. People can screw around all they like, but the
women had better take precautions against pregnancy because once it happens, I
don't think they have an ethical choice to end it.
I occured to me after I posted that my opinion that the mother has made a
choice and will not deal with the consequences completely fails to apply in
cases of rape. I have no clear sight on that one. I lean towards abortion
being
legal in rape cases because the thought of foisting a child upon someone in
such a violent manner is disgusting, but it equally pits the right to life of
the child and the mother. Neither of them asked to be in the situation. There
is indeed a time for every purpose under heaven.
Flip a coin I guess. ;^)
Let the person most impacted decode. The woman. Kind of practical,
don't you think?
Dunno. I respect the life within. It's a toughie. My common sense in such cases
says defer to the woman and let her live with herself. I'm against casual
abortion not abortions where there really is an ethical tangle.
--
Zag
Guns cause crime
like flies cause garbage
...bumper sticker
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
16 Dec 2004 10:38:09 PM |
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Zaghadka
David W. Barnes
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
I dunno. Adoption?
Do you adopt? Most people who advocate adoption refuse to adopt.
I already have two children, but yes, I think you're right. Pro-lifers should
adopt if they can. If they really believe their own *****. I couldn't afford
another child. I can't afford two. :^)
How special. Someone who expects women to pay the price of having
children but "can't afford" to do the same.
Hypocrite.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 11:11:50 PM |
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Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes
I think making it murder would be short sighted. What would we do with
all the unwanted children?
I dunno. Adoption? This is not an easy issue to sort out, but Pro-Lifers and
Pro-choicers aren't even on the same planet right now. Hence, the "Pro-Lie"
post from Ray Fischer that I am somehow dealing out punishment for sex. I don't
think someone should be punished for sex, I just think "zygote" is as valid a
state of life as "toddler," and if you bungee jump, you had better be ready to
land on your head when the cord breaks, without negligence of course.
And yet your very language proves you wrong. You write that the woman
must face the "consequences" of her choice to have sex.
That's punishment.
I occured to me after I posted that my opinion that the mother has made a
choice and will not deal with the consequences completely fails to apply in
cases of rape. I have no clear sight on that one. I lean towards abortion being
legal in rape cases because the thought of foisting a child upon someone in
And there it is again. She chose to have sex so she must suffer. If
she didn't chose to have sex then it's somehow different. It's not
about the fetus/embryo. It's about HER actions.
You view sex as a crime and you can't even admit it.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
15 Dec 2004 11:07:29 PM |
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Zaghadka <president@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
In article <f1qtr0hn9rdjinl2gbc6gfv57uvl1e8f8t@4ax.com>, Zaghadka
<zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes bolted into alt.world, wreathed in wicked, white hot flames,
and screamed...
I disagree. The Republican strategists have made it so and it is
*extremely*
damaging to this country. Liberalism is the basis of dissent. The power
brokers
don't want dissent.
You sound pretty liberal. To be clear, are you pro-life or pro-choice?
(And by pro-choice, I mean do you want abortion to remain legal?)
By that definition, pro-life. I don't *want* abortion to be legal, but I think
it must be for the time being because of religious differences and the 1st
Ammendment.
Why should abortion be illegal, even if God opposes it? Wouldn't God
want people to choose for themselves? What is the point of free will
and sin if we force people to be "sin free?" If you WANT to sin but
the law keeps you from sinning, are you not a sinner?
I am flawed and I am a sinner, yet I can easily say that killing someone with
malice aforethought is 1st degree murder and wrong.
Not even Jesus made such a claim.
What makes you so special?
I leave divine judgement up
to God on that one, but human judgement and general consensus says that it's
wrong and it has to be stopped. I support human law.
No you don't. You want human law to be changed to sday what you want
it to say.
Free will does not extend
to infringing upon the rights of others.
LOL! What hypocrisy! It seems you think that pregnant women have no
rights to infringe upon.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
10 Dec 2004 11:27:52 PM |
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J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
David W. Barnes wrote:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders
of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple
matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or
no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the
country to greater danger."
No - it isn't the Republicans, or the White House. It was Herman
Goering at the Nuremberg trials.
Are you comparing America with Nazi Germany?
Although fascist parties and movements differed significantly from
each other, they had many characteristics in common, including
extreme MILITARISTIC NATIONALISM, CONTEMPT FOR ELECTORAL DEMOCRACY
AND POLITICAL AND CULTURAL LIBERALISM, a belief in NATURAL SOCIAL
HIERARCHY AND THE RULE OF ELITES, and the desire to createa
Volksgemeinschaft (German: Òpeople's communityÓ), in which
individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the
nation.
Are you saying that the
attacks of 9/11 were fabricated?
lebensraum: territory believed especially by Nazis to be necessary
for national existence or economic self-sufficiency
Finally, do you really think the
agenda put foward by the liberals is what is best for America?
Lessee, education and health care for all, fair wages, peace instead
of war, protecting people from being killed by pollution, liberty
and equality.
Sounds pretty good. Which part don't you like?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Cleopatra" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
10 Dec 2004 10:25:40 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
Are you comparing America with Nazi Germany? Are you saying that the
attacks of 9/11 were fabricated? Finally, do you really think the
agenda put foward by the liberals is what is best for America?
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best. When one encounters these
Quisling sons-a-bitches doing this, one's fondest hope is they someday
actually encounter a "real" Nazi government which will shove their
worthless fucking asses into ovens and be done with them. Then at least
they won't be crying wolf and will be up against the real thing, up
against people who are not only "out" to get them, but will in fact
"get them," get their cowardly little asses and put them all in a
pleasant "place" where they belong. Give them, as it were, the *peace*
they all desire - the peace of the grave.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
10 Dec 2004 11:28:48 PM |
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Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com> wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Gactimus" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
11 Dec 2004 04:51:59 PM |
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(Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
11 Dec 2004 10:47:17 PM |
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Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
No surprise you call people traitors for not being sheep.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "--sexkitten--" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
11 Dec 2004 06:55:55 PM |
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Gactimus wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
For Bush's inspiration, and yours, yes. It's not surprising at all.
--
--sexkitten--He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he
realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that
there wasn't an afterlife.
-Douglas Adams
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| User: "Gactimus" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 09:55:31 AM |
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--sexkitten-- <ladyhawk_two_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:321j8uF3g6gmvU4@individual.net:
Gactimus wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
For Bush's inspiration, and yours, yes. It's not surprising at all.
So if the Nazis said the grass is green would that make it wrong? The Nazis
also implemented numerous social programs. Does that mean we should get rid
of all our social programs?
.
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| User: "--sexkitten--" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 06:59:28 PM |
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Gactimus wrote:
--sexkitten-- <ladyhawk_two_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:321j8uF3g6gmvU4@individual.net:
Gactimus wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
For Bush's inspiration, and yours, yes. It's not surprising at all.
So if the Nazis said the grass is green would that make it wrong?
LOL!! You brought the Nazi's up as a bad thing, dear.
The Nazis
also implemented numerous social programs. Does that mean we should get rid
of all our social programs?
--
--sexkitten--Question with boldness even the existence of a God;
because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason
than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "--sexkitten--" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 07:00:38 PM |
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Gactimus wrote:
--sexkitten-- <ladyhawk_two_nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:321j8uF3g6gmvU4@individual.net:
Gactimus wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
For Bush's inspiration, and yours, yes. It's not surprising at all.
So if the Nazis said the grass is green would that make it wrong? The Nazis
also implemented numerous social programs. Does that mean we should get rid
of all our social programs?
Are you admitting you get your inspiration from the Nazi's?
--
--sexkitten--Question with boldness even the existence of a God;
because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason
than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "David W. Barnes" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
11 Dec 2004 06:23:09 PM |
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In article <1102805519.59fc82c594275f0074fcf03d0c4875cd@bubbanews>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
Moron. The Bush Administrations and the Republicans say EXACTLY what
Goering said. That was the point. You sure get lost fast.
.
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| User: "Gactimus" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 09:53:27 AM |
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"David W. Barnes" <spam@aol.com> wrote in
news:111220041623095603%spam@aol.com:
In article <1102805519.59fc82c594275f0074fcf03d0c4875cd@bubbanews>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is what
this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
Moron. The Bush Administrations and the Republicans say EXACTLY what
Goering said. That was the point. You sure get lost fast.
Bush didn't have to say we are being attacked. Everyone saw we were being
attacked on 9-11.
.
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 10:32:36 AM |
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Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in
news:1102866807.1eb2f7e5dc75044f8560f53387c184b6@bubbanews:
"David W. Barnes" <spam@aol.com> wrote in
news:111220041623095603%spam@aol.com:
In article <1102805519.59fc82c594275f0074fcf03d0c4875cd@bubbanews>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is
what this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
Moron. The Bush Administrations and the Republicans say EXACTLY what
Goering said. That was the point. You sure get lost fast.
Bush didn't have to say we are being attacked. Everyone saw we were
being attacked on 9-11.
your pal bush let the attacking nation go free while he invaded a
different country to steal their oil. that is why the world sees the usa
as a crazed errorist nation.
.
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| User: "Gactimus" |
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| Title: Re: Sound Familiar? |
12 Dec 2004 10:42:29 AM |
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"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote in
news:Xns95BD756C62571keegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4:
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote in
news:1102866807.1eb2f7e5dc75044f8560f53387c184b6@bubbanews:
"David W. Barnes" <spam@aol.com> wrote in
news:111220041623095603%spam@aol.com:
In article <1102805519.59fc82c594275f0074fcf03d0c4875cd@bubbanews>,
Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:cpe0if$316$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Cleopatra <Liberals_Are_Mentally_Unbalanced@linkedto.nulluser.com>
wrote:
Of course they're comparing America with Nazi Germany. This is
what this crowd of traitorous bastards does best.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing
the country to greater danger.
Goering
No surprise that you look to Nazis for inspiration.
Moron. The Bush Administrations and the Republicans say EXACTLY what
Goering said. That was the point. You sure get lost fast.
Bush didn't have to say we are being attacked. Everyone saw we were
being attacked on 9-11.
your pal bush let the attacking nation go free
There was no attacking nation.
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