| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Streamer" |
| Date: |
11 Nov 2004 03:59:41 AM |
| Object: |
St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
.
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| User: "Roy Mock" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
12 Nov 2004 11:04:30 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
I can't explain when or how.
It may depend on what is understood by symbolism. Protestants tend to take
it to mean a representation only. I can't speak for the other Christian
traditions, but I understand they may say consecrated symbols also takes on
the nature and substance of that represented.
The Early Church expressly forbad representation fearing that images may be
venerated as with pagan practices.
Certainly by the Middle Ages the stations of the Cross and other
illustrative materials serve to remind and teach those with poor literacy.
Tracts on walls and windows I suppose in the age before the printing press.
I'm not sure where you are leading at with the subject line. I've had poor
success sometimes introducing newcomers to our
no-frills-not-in-church-building meetings to find that it didn't feel right
without the 'bells and smells' experience. It could well be horses for
courses.
Cheers.
Cheers.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 01:16:41 AM |
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"Roy Mock" <roymock1NOSPAM@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:41959603$0$12165$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
I can't explain when or how.
It may depend on what is understood by symbolism. Protestants tend to
take it to mean a representation only. I can't speak for the other
Christian traditions, but I understand they may say consecrated symbols
also takes on the nature and substance of that represented.
The Early Church expressly forbad representation fearing that images may
be venerated as with pagan practices.
Certainly by the Middle Ages the stations of the Cross and other
illustrative materials serve to remind and teach those with poor literacy.
Tracts on walls and windows I suppose in the age before the printing
press.
I'm not sure where you are leading at with the subject line. I've had
poor success sometimes introducing newcomers to our
no-frills-not-in-church-building meetings to find that it didn't feel
right without the 'bells and smells' experience. It could well be horses
for courses.
As I understand it, true christians should follow what the bible says, and
do the same format as the NT christians did.
And I can't find any verses that commanded us to do those, and can't find
any works of the early christians (OT) that does that.
.
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| User: "Roy Mock" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 01:42:38 AM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:txild.71469$fF6.34636852@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"Roy Mock" <roymock1NOSPAM@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:41959603$0$12165$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
I can't explain when or how.
It may depend on what is understood by symbolism. Protestants tend to
take it to mean a representation only. I can't speak for the other
Christian traditions, but I understand they may say consecrated symbols
also takes on the nature and substance of that represented.
The Early Church expressly forbad representation fearing that images may
be venerated as with pagan practices.
Certainly by the Middle Ages the stations of the Cross and other
illustrative materials serve to remind and teach those with poor
literacy. Tracts on walls and windows I suppose in the age before the
printing press.
I'm not sure where you are leading at with the subject line. I've had
poor success sometimes introducing newcomers to our
no-frills-not-in-church-building meetings to find that it didn't feel
right without the 'bells and smells' experience. It could well be
horses for courses.
As I understand it, true christians should follow what the bible says, and
do the same format as the NT christians did.
And I can't find any verses that commanded us to do those, and can't find
any works of the early christians (OT) that does that.
There's lots of contra-idol stuff out there if you care to look.
E.g "'Not that an idol is anything', as the apostle says, but that the
homage they render to it is to demons. These are the real occupants of
these consecrated images - whether of dead men or (as they think) of gods".
Tertullian 3.85.
Otherwise the NT often expects us to flee from idols (e.g. 1 Cor 10:14).
I'm still not on what your agenda is.
As to idols and worship; My pastor helpfully who pointed out that: Whatever
consumes most of our time or money is what we worship: And that is our idol.
It was a reality check when I first heard this.
Cheers.
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
14 Nov 2004 01:11:14 AM |
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"Roy Mock" <roymock1NOSPAM@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4195bb13$0$12900$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:txild.71469$fF6.34636852@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
"Roy Mock" <roymock1NOSPAM@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:41959603$0$12165$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to
those graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
I can't explain when or how.
It may depend on what is understood by symbolism. Protestants tend to
take it to mean a representation only. I can't speak for the other
Christian traditions, but I understand they may say consecrated symbols
also takes on the nature and substance of that represented.
The Early Church expressly forbad representation fearing that images may
be venerated as with pagan practices.
Certainly by the Middle Ages the stations of the Cross and other
illustrative materials serve to remind and teach those with poor
literacy. Tracts on walls and windows I suppose in the age before the
printing press.
I'm not sure where you are leading at with the subject line. I've had
poor success sometimes introducing newcomers to our
no-frills-not-in-church-building meetings to find that it didn't feel
right without the 'bells and smells' experience. It could well be
horses for courses.
As I understand it, true christians should follow what the bible says,
and do the same format as the NT christians did.
And I can't find any verses that commanded us to do those, and can't find
any works of the early christians (OT) that does that.
There's lots of contra-idol stuff out there if you care to look.
E.g "'Not that an idol is anything', as the apostle says, but that the
homage they render to it is to demons. These are the real occupants of
these consecrated images - whether of dead men or (as they think) of
gods". Tertullian 3.85.
Otherwise the NT often expects us to flee from idols (e.g. 1 Cor 10:14).
I'm still not on what your agenda is.
As to idols and worship; My pastor helpfully who pointed out that:
Whatever consumes most of our time or money is what we worship: And that
is our idol. It was a reality check when I first heard this.
Cheers.
Yes there are many forms of idols.
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
11 Nov 2004 06:10:42 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The Bible also tells us not to cast our pearls to swine, but this will be
good for yo ejification.
The question of images was settled over a thousand years ago - when your
ancestors were eating each other:
The Second Council of Nicea (7th Ecumenical Council) 787 AD
367 Bishops present
The Council's Proclamation
"To make our confession short, we keep unchanged all the ecclesiastical
traditions handed down to us, whether in writing or verbally, one of which
is the making of pictorial representations, agreeable to the history of the
preaching of the Gospel, a tradition useful in many respects, but
especially in this, that so the incarnation of the Word of God is shown
forth as real and not merely fantastic, for these have mutual indications
and without doubt have also mutual significations. We, therefore, following
the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers
and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, eth Holy
Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as
the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and
holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials,
should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels
and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by
the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of
our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all
Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are
seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up
to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these
should be given due salutation and honorable reverence not indeed that true
worship of faith which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these,
as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of
the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered
according to ancient pious custom. For the honor which is paid to the image
passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image
reveres in it the subject represented."
Exodus 25:18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall
you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub on the
one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat
shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread
out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their
faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim
be. 21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark; and in the
ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.
Numbers 21: 8 And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it
on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." 9 So
Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any
man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
1 Kings 6: 23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each
ten cubits high. 24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub,
and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten
cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. 25 The other cherub
also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same
form. 26 The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the
other cherub. 27 He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and
the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the
one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other
wings touched each other in the middle of the house. 28 And he overlaid the
cherubim with gold.
2 Chronicles 3: 10 In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and
overlaid them with gold. 11 The wings of the cherubim together extended
twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the
house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other
cherub; 12 and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of
the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing
of the first cherub. 13 The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits;
the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. 14 And he made the veil
of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim
on it.
BAM
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
11 Nov 2004 11:50:46 PM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:waTkd.8255$WC6.2797@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Exodus 25:18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work
shall
you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub on
the
one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat
shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread
out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings,
their
faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the
cherubim
be. 21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark; and in the
ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.
Numbers 21: 8 And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set
it
on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." 9 So
Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit
any
man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
1 Kings 6: 23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood,
each
ten cubits high. 24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub,
and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten
cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. 25 The other
cherub
also measured ten cubits; both cherubim had the same measure and the same
form. 26 The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the
other cherub. 27 He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house;
and
the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched
the
one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their
other
wings touched each other in the middle of the house. 28 And he overlaid
the
cherubim with gold.
2 Chronicles 3: 10 In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and
overlaid them with gold. 11 The wings of the cherubim together extended
twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of
the
house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other
cherub; 12 and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall
of
the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing
of the first cherub. 13 The wings of these cherubim extended twenty
cubits;
the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. 14 And he made the veil
of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim
on it.
BAM
Did God commanded them to do these at that time ?
.
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| User: "Shan" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 07:56:49 AM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim that
they perform miracles.
MIRACLES OF REPRESENTATIONS OF SAINTS
Acts: 19: 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from
his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits
went out.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
VENERATION OF THOSE WHO SEE GOD
Joshua 5: 14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of
the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua *******fell facedown to the
ground in reverence,******* and asked him, "What message does my Lord
[4] have for his servant?"
Daniel 8: 17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was
terrified and fell ***^***prostrate (in worship).**** "Son of man," he
said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end."
Tobit 12:12 So you must know that when you and Sarah were at prayer,
it was I who offered your supplications before the glory of the Lord
and who read them
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
INTERCESSION IN HEAVEN
Jeremiah 15: 1 Then the LORD said to me, "Even though Moses and
Samuel were to stand before Me, My heart would not be with this
people; send them away from My presence and let them go!
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY DIE
2 Kings 13
21 As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band;
and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man
touched the bones of Elisha he (1) revived and stood up on his feet.
YOU DID NOT SEARCH YOUR BIBLE WELL or searched it with a closed mind
and closed eyes.
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
12 Nov 2004 04:50:56 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Take a look at Exodus 25:18
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 01:13:24 AM |
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"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411121450.6b3d805@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Because God wants them to build it. And sure Moses obeyed God.
Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and bow down to them ?
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 07:36:34 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<ouild.71462$fF6.34628743@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411121450.6b3d805@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Because God wants them to build it. And sure Moses obeyed God.
Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and bow down to them ?
You actually believe God commanded Moses to break his commandments??
And right after he gave them the commandments? Why would God want them
to build it if He just told them not to build it or anything like it?
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
14 Nov 2004 01:14:03 AM |
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"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411131736.6a10c544@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<ouild.71462$fF6.34628743@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411121450.6b3d805@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Because God wants them to build it. And sure Moses obeyed God.
Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus
&
other NT characters and bow down to them ?
You actually believe God commanded Moses to break his commandments??
No.
And right after he gave them the commandments? Why would God want them
to build it if He just told them not to build it or anything like it?
Did you read the whole Exo.20 ?
* Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and BOW DOWN to them ?
.
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| User: "Shan" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
14 Nov 2004 09:09:33 AM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<%ADld.1486$GV4.1891871@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411131736.6a10c544@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<ouild.71462$fF6.34628743@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"David" <davecheryll@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b0a6dae.0411121450.6b3d805@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Because God wants them to build it. And sure Moses obeyed God.
Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus
&
other NT characters and bow down to them ?
You actually believe God commanded Moses to break his commandments??
No.
And right after he gave them the commandments? Why would God want them
to build it if He just told them not to build it or anything like it?
Did you read the whole Exo.20 ?
* Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and BOW DOWN to them ?
If Christ were to walk the earth today would he escape the paparazzi?
NO.
Would those who love him keep his pictures? YES
Do those who keep pictures of those whom they love (fathers, mothers,
sons, daughter, husbands and yes those which the paparazzii took of
Jesus) WORSHIP the pictures? NO.
Do thos who do not belong to God damned Prots, woship the oil, wood,
paint or other materials that represent Christ or the saints? NO.
Are God-damned Prots who accuse us of worshipping such crazy idiots?
YES MOST DEFINITELY.
Talk is cheap so shut your gob.
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
16 Nov 2004 06:44:54 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<%ADld.1486$GV4.1891871@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
You actually believe God commanded Moses to break his commandments??
No.
And right after he gave them the commandments? Why would God want them
to build it if He just told them not to build it or anything like it?
Did you read the whole Exo.20 ?
* Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and BOW DOWN to them ?
Ok Streamer, I am sorry about the Kerry joke.
But seriously, can you explain why you believe that God can issue a
command to override the 2nd commandment, when there is no evidence for
this override in the text of the Bible itself?
Obviously God would not override the other commandments right? He
would not issue a command to worship false gods, or commit adultrey,
right? So why would He command Moses to build the statues of the
cherubim? Why would the 2nd commandment have an exception clause when
none of the others have one?
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
14 Nov 2004 04:06:16 PM |
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<%ADld.1486$GV4.1891871@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
Probably from the two big statues of angels that were each placed
alongside the Ark of the Covenant a few chapters after Moses got the
10 commandments.
After all, if God and Moses understood the 1st commandment to be split
into the 1st and 2nd commandment, which is how you understand it, why
would God instruct Moses to build these graven images in the first
place?
Because God wants them to build it. And sure Moses obeyed God.
Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus
&
other NT characters and bow down to them ?
You actually believe God commanded Moses to break his commandments??
No.
Ok, would you care to elaborate?
And right after he gave them the commandments? Why would God want them
to build it if He just told them not to build it or anything like it?
Did you read the whole Exo.20 ?
Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any
likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the
earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for
I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of
them that hate me;
I am trying to read it your way. You say the 2nd commandment is not to
make any graven images. Reading that text carefully, I don't read any
loophole clause saying, "Unless of course, I give you a personal
command to disregard this commandment to build something specific."
If you insist on reading it as a seperate commandment from Exd 20:3.
If I understand you correctly, God issued his 2nd commandment that
there were to be no graven images. He then almost immediately ordererd
Moses to build two graven images to place on either side of the Ark.
So are you saying that God flipflopped? Cause that looks like a
flipflop to me.
Do you believe that God flipflops on other commandments?
You didn't vote for Kerry by any chance?
* Now, did God commanded us NOW that we should make graven images of Jesus &
other NT characters and BOW DOWN to them ?
I need a better explanation from you on the Old Testament than the
current hand-waving, before we move on to the New Testament.
.
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| User: "bernard connor" |
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| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
11 Nov 2004 12:29:59 PM |
|
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"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The early christians adopted the pagan gods which they encountered and
transformed them into saints or devils. The worship of Queen Isis, the
Queen of Heaven was condemned by the prophet Jeremiah, so the title
passed to Mary the surrogate mother of Jesus. The two headed god of
the gate Janus became Saint Januarius whose blood liquefies regularly.
Apollo who had goat's feet became a devil etc.etc.
The reverence of relics is a very primitive concept which has survived
to this day. I find this custom abhorrent and believe that the remains
of the dead should be left to rest in peace. R.I.P.
I can dimly recall a queue of 5,000 in Dublin to see the skeletal hand
of St Francis Xavier and recently the bones of St Therese of Lisieux
were paraded round the world even past the Kremlin in Moscow. The
Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
.
|
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| User: "Streamer" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
12 Nov 2004 11:08:34 PM |
|
|
"bernard connor" <bernard_connor@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The early christians adopted the pagan gods which they encountered and
transformed them into saints or devils. The worship of Queen Isis, the
Queen of Heaven was condemned by the prophet Jeremiah, so the title
passed to Mary the surrogate mother of Jesus. The two headed god of
the gate Janus became Saint Januarius whose blood liquefies regularly.
Apollo who had goat's feet became a devil etc.etc.
The reverence of relics is a very primitive concept which has survived
to this day. I find this custom abhorrent and believe that the remains
of the dead should be left to rest in peace. R.I.P.
I can dimly recall a queue of 5,000 in Dublin to see the skeletal hand
of St Francis Xavier and recently the bones of St Therese of Lisieux
were paraded round the world even past the Kremlin in Moscow. The
Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
Are you saying that what RCC is doing is against the Bible ?
Shouldn't we follow what is written in the bible ?
.
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| User: "bernard connor" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
13 Nov 2004 11:57:08 AM |
|
|
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<mFgld.71344$fF6.34353384@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"bernard connor" <bernard_connor@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The early christians adopted the pagan gods which they encountered and
transformed them into saints or devils. The worship of Queen Isis, the
Queen of Heaven was condemned by the prophet Jeremiah, so the title
passed to Mary the surrogate mother of Jesus. The two headed god of
the gate Janus became Saint Januarius whose blood liquefies regularly.
Apollo who had goat's feet became a devil etc.etc.
The reverence of relics is a very primitive concept which has survived
to this day. I find this custom abhorrent and believe that the remains
of the dead should be left to rest in peace. R.I.P.
I can dimly recall a queue of 5,000 in Dublin to see the skeletal hand
of St Francis Xavier and recently the bones of St Therese of Lisieux
were paraded round the world even past the Kremlin in Moscow. The
Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
Are you saying that what RCC is doing is against the Bible ?
Shouldn't we follow what is written in the bible ?
I am not aware of any relevance of this macabre and grisly process of
dismembering skeletal remains of the dead, then distributing them
around to place under altars and the Bible. Perhaps, you would quote
chapter and verse? Having written the above, I must admit that there
are some very odd things in the Bible. At one time, someone in this
Group used to quote Evil Passages from the Bible and some of them are
appalling.
Bernard Connor
.
|
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| User: "Shan" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
17 Nov 2004 11:42:01 AM |
|
|
(bernard connor) wrote in message news:<6bc4e164.0411130957.4e08fc60@posting.google.com>...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<mFgld.71344$fF6.34353384@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
"bernard connor" < > wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim
that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The early christians adopted the pagan gods which they encountered and
transformed them into saints or devils. The worship of Queen Isis, the
Queen of Heaven was condemned by the prophet Jeremiah, so the title
passed to Mary the surrogate mother of Jesus. The two headed god of
the gate Janus became Saint Januarius whose blood liquefies regularly.
Apollo who had goat's feet became a devil etc.etc.
The reverence of relics is a very primitive concept which has survived
to this day. I find this custom abhorrent and believe that the remains
of the dead should be left to rest in peace. R.I.P.
I can dimly recall a queue of 5,000 in Dublin to see the skeletal hand
of St Francis Xavier and recently the bones of St Therese of Lisieux
were paraded round the world even past the Kremlin in Moscow. The
Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
Are you saying that what RCC is doing is against the Bible ?
Shouldn't we follow what is written in the bible ?
I am not aware of any relevance of this macabre and grisly process of
dismembering skeletal remains of the dead, then distributing them
around to place under altars and the Bible. Perhaps, you would quote
chapter and verse? Having written the above, I must admit that there
are some very odd things in the Bible. At one time, someone in this
Group used to quote Evil Passages from the Bible and some of them are
appalling.
Bernard Connor
2 Kings 13
21 As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band;
and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man
touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet.
.
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| User: "EW" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
11 Nov 2004 04:25:06 PM |
|
|
"bernard connor" <bernard_connor@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
The Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
So what concern is it of yours? Is there a point to your irrelevant piffle?
EW
.
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| User: "Streamer" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
11 Nov 2004 11:57:20 PM |
|
|
"EW" <ewyatt_erase@excite.com> wrote in message
news:2vi7blF2ionrhU1@uni-berlin.de...
"bernard connor" <bernard_connor@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
The Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
So what concern is it of yours? Is there a point to your irrelevant
piffle?
EW
Well, I do understand it Bernard . So that's how they got that one.
I tried to look at the bible especially the NT and didn't find any works of
the early christians that does that.
Bernard, do you think maybe Jesus before he left, talk to the Apostles and
commanded to make greaven images of the saints & Jesus Himself so christians
can always remember them?
If you found it, please show me the verse.
.
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| User: "bernard connor" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
12 Nov 2004 12:18:58 AM |
|
|
"EW" <ewyatt_erase@excite.com> wrote in message news:<2vi7blF2ionrhU1@uni-berlin.de>...
"bernard connor" <bernard_connor@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
The Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
So what concern is it of yours? Is there a point to your irrelevant piffle?
EW
Yes, I am disgusted at the dismembering of the bodies of the dead and
shifting the skeletal parts around the world for "reverence". It goes
further, you can have a "rub of the relic" or a rub of a linen cloth
which has rubbed the relic, not forgetting to leave your donation.
The absurd Turin Shroud was recognised by the local archbishop at the
time to be a fake and he claimed that he knew the forger. It took a
further ca 600 years to establish by radiocarbon dating that the thing
was less than 1,000 years ago.
When St Thomas Aquinas was dying, the monks who were around him knew
that there was no doubt that he would be a famous saint and that his
skeletal parts would be worth a fortune. So his body was dismembered
while it was still warm. He may have been still alive when the grisly
surgery began.
Whatever happened to Veronica's Towel (or handkerchief)? It was said
to show the bloody face of Jesus. It was believed that Veronica daubed
the bleeding face of Jesus as he carried his cross to Calvary.
As Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, the only relic of him was his
foreskin
removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from a monastery in Italy
ca 1970.
Keep an eye out for it, there may be a reward or an indulgence for the
finder.
Bernard Connor
.
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| User: "j w" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
15 Nov 2004 01:09:54 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On 11 Nov 2004 22:18:58 -0800, (bernard
connor) wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"EW" <ewyatt_erase@excite.com> wrote in message news:<2vi7blF2ionrhU1@uni-berlin.de>...
"bernard connor" < > wrote in message
news:6bc4e164.0411111029.69be74e5@posting.google.com...
The Orthodox Catholics are even more addicted to relics than their Roman
counterparts.
Bernard Connor
So what concern is it of yours? Is there a point to your irrelevant piffle?
EW
Yes, I am disgusted at the dismembering of the bodies of the dead and
shifting the skeletal parts around the world for "reverence". It goes
further, you can have a "rub of the relic" or a rub of a linen cloth
which has rubbed the relic, not forgetting to leave your donation.
While there is no place in Christendom for the worship of "relics"
such as fingers and skulls, if we can trace their origins back to the
place of the original interment, that can be invaluable in documenting
the "where/when/who" of the gospels and epistles, as was explained to
me by one of my seminary profs, Dr. McBirnie.
The absurd Turin Shroud was recognised by the local archbishop at the
time to be a fake and he claimed that he knew the forger. It took a
further ca 600 years to establish by radiocarbon dating that the thing
was less than 1,000 years ago.
Last I heard, the final decree is still out on the Shroud. And last I
was aware, from my university science, radiocarbon dating is worthless
with objects less than 1 million years old.
I know of cases where California Redwood trees whose age WAS known
within a few years dated as MILLIONS of years old, when in fact, they
are only a few HUNDRED years old.
When St Thomas Aquinas was dying, the monks who were around him knew
that there was no doubt that he would be a famous saint and that his
skeletal parts would be worth a fortune. So his body was dismembered
while it was still warm. He may have been still alive when the grisly
surgery began.
THAT is disgusting, barbaric, and pagan.
Whatever happened to Veronica's Towel (or handkerchief)? It was said
to show the bloody face of Jesus. It was believed that Veronica daubed
the bleeding face of Jesus as he carried his cross to Calvary.
The RCC will invent just about any nonsense to give its doops and
stooges reason to drop those coins in the box!
Buy a candle anyone?
As Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, the only relic of him was his
foreskin
removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from a monastery in Italy
ca 1970.
You want to make us all gag? I wouldn't believe THAT one if *I* told
it.
Keep an eye out for it, there may be a reward or an indulgence for the
finder.
Bernard Connor
Thanks for the vain attempt at humor.
jw
God bless!
j w
.
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| User: "Chuckkles" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
17 Nov 2004 05:48:08 AM |
|
|
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
On 11 Nov 2004 22:18:58 -0800, (bernard
connor) wrote:
Yes, I am disgusted at the dismembering of the bodies of the dead and
shifting the skeletal parts around the world for "reverence". It goes
further, you can have a "rub of the relic" or a rub of a linen cloth
which has rubbed the relic, not forgetting to leave your donation.
While there is no place in Christendom for the worship of "relics"
such as fingers and skulls, if we can trace their origins back to the
place of the original interment, that can be invaluable in documenting
the "where/when/who" of the gospels and epistles, as was explained to
me by one of my seminary profs, Dr. McBirnie.
It's not possible to do any such tracings reliably because these relics are
all bogus in the first place when you attempt tracing back to the 1st
century.
When St Thomas Aquinas was dying, the monks who were around him knew
that there was no doubt that he would be a famous saint and that his
skeletal parts would be worth a fortune. So his body was dismembered
while it was still warm. He may have been still alive when the grisly
surgery began.
THAT is disgusting, barbaric, and pagan.
Well, for an organization that burned people alive, dismembering warm bodies
was easy.
As Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, the only relic of him was his
foreskin
removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from a monastery in Italy
ca 1970.
Keep an eye out for it, there may be a reward or an indulgence for the
finder.
Bernard Connor
Thanks for the vain attempt at humor.
I didn't think it was a vain attempt at all, it was genuinely funny.
.
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| User: "bernard connor" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
17 Nov 2004 12:47:53 PM |
|
|
"Chuckkles" <nespam1c@nuspam2.com> wrote in message news:<YTGmd.29224$7i4.11879@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
On 11 Nov 2004 22:18:58 -0800, (bernard
connor) wrote:
Yes, I am disgusted at the dismembering of the bodies of the dead and
shifting the skeletal parts around the world for "reverence". It goes
further, you can have a "rub of the relic" or a rub of a linen cloth
which has rubbed the relic, not forgetting to leave your donation.
While there is no place in Christendom for the worship of "relics"
such as fingers and skulls, if we can trace their origins back to the
place of the original interment, that can be invaluable in documenting
the "where/when/who" of the gospels and epistles, as was explained to
me by one of my seminary profs, Dr. McBirnie.
It's not possible to do any such tracings reliably because these relics are
all bogus in the first place when you attempt tracing back to the 1st
century.
When St Thomas Aquinas was dying, the monks who were around him knew
that there was no doubt that he would be a famous saint and that his
skeletal parts would be worth a fortune. So his body was dismembered
while it was still warm. He may have been still alive when the grisly
surgery began.
THAT is disgusting, barbaric, and pagan.
Well, for an organization that burned people alive, dismembering warm bodies
was easy.
As Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, the only relic of him was his
foreskin
removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from a monastery in Italy
ca 1970.
Keep an eye out for it, there may be a reward or an indulgence for the
finder.
Bernard Connor
Thanks for the vain attempt at humor.
I didn't think it was a vain attempt at all, it was genuinely funny.
I was going to write that it is Gospel truth, but that is not very
reliable, I will merely write that it is accurate history.
Bernard Connor
.
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| User: "j w" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
17 Nov 2004 02:36:15 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 11:48:08 GMT, "Chuckkles" <nespam1c@nuspam2.com>
wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"j w @yahoo.com>" <j_w<no> wrote in message
On 11 Nov 2004 22:18:58 -0800, (bernard
connor) wrote:
Yes, I am disgusted at the dismembering of the bodies of the dead and
shifting the skeletal parts around the world for "reverence". It goes
further, you can have a "rub of the relic" or a rub of a linen cloth
which has rubbed the relic, not forgetting to leave your donation.
While there is no place in Christendom for the worship of "relics"
such as fingers and skulls, if we can trace their origins back to the
place of the original interment, that can be invaluable in documenting
the "where/when/who" of the gospels and epistles, as was explained to
me by one of my seminary profs, Dr. McBirnie.
It's not possible to do any such tracings reliably because these relics are
all bogus in the first place when you attempt tracing back to the 1st
"Another country heard from!" thanks, I'll take my seminary prof's
word. He was the leading authority on Early church History and Early
Church Archaeology when I was at his seminary. He is the prof who
informed me that if I had visited the 1st C church at Ismir, Turkey, I
had been at the Church at Ephesus, from the epistle by that name.
century.
When St Thomas Aquinas was dying, the monks who were around him knew
that there was no doubt that he would be a famous saint and that his
skeletal parts would be worth a fortune. So his body was dismembered
while it was still warm. He may have been still alive when the grisly
surgery began.
THAT is disgusting, barbaric, and pagan.
Well, for an organization that burned people alive, dismembering warm bodies
was easy.
Understood.
As Jesus ascended bodily into heaven, the only relic of him was his
foreskin
removed at his circumcision. It disappeared from a monastery in Italy
ca 1970.
Keep an eye out for it, there may be a reward or an indulgence for the
finder.
Bernard Connor
Thanks for the vain attempt at humor.
I didn't think it was a vain attempt at all, it was genuinely funny.
Depends on one's SOH.
jw
God bless!
j w
.
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| User: "j w" |
|
| Title: Re: St. Peter & other Images of Saints. |
15 Nov 2004 01:02:57 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On 11 Nov 2004 10:29:59 -0800, (bernard
connor) wrote:
copyright 2004 John Weatherly all rights reserved (keep it in the
group)
"Streamer" <jcjuno@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<hKGkd.65137$fF6.28204167@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
What benefits can we get on bowing down or falling on our knees to those
graven images of what they say are saints ?
Images of St. Peter and other saints are used as idols. They even claim that
they perform miracles.
Are there any bible reference to this actions ?
I searched the bible & did not find any verse that Apostles allows
christians to bow down to them.
No text also telling us that we do that after they died.
How did they get the idea ?
The early christians adopted the pagan gods which they encountered and
transformed them into saints or devils.
Don't call Roman Catholics "early Christians" as there were some dozen
different denominations by the end of the 1st C AD.
The Romans introduced idols and idol worship into the "Christian"
worship because most Romans after Constantine were declared
"Christians" no matter WHAT their views.
jw
snipped for posting.
God bless!
j w
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