| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Michael" |
| Date: |
28 Dec 2006 06:39:18 PM |
| Object: |
Support for Covenant of Works? |
I have been reading Johnson's History of the American People. He
mentions the early colonists and a conflict between them on a covenant
of works and covenant of grace. The convenant of works states that you
have to act properly to get into heaven, in addition to being a
believer, where as the covenant of grace states that you only need
profess your belief, confess your sins, etc, to get in the door.
Although the Bible spends considerable time discussing morality and
what is right and wrong, it does appear that instructions on getting to
heaven almost invariably parallel the covenant of grace.
Can you please give me quotes from the Bible that support the covenant
of works, that you have to act in a manner to get into heaven? I have
found only one: Luke 18:22: Now when Jesus heard these things, he
said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and
distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and
come, follow me.
Thank you, Michael
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: Support for Covenant of Works? |
29 Dec 2006 11:32:37 AM |
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Hello Michael:
You asked about:
The convenant of works states that you
have to act properly to get into heaven, in addition to being a
believer, where as the covenant of grace states that you only need
profess your belief, confess your sins, etc, to get in the door.
Azaliah responded:
That's not true, but it is. :)
Grace is the key, but a real saving faith, produces works.
The works do not save. They are simply the natural
result of a saving faith. The works come after salvation
and are evidence of said salvation, not the cause of it.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
*UNTO* good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
While Azaliah is correct in that sincere belief in God's grace toward
the individual, does produce good works in the individual, it is my
humble opinion that God's grace toward the individual is not the
principle of God's grace which scripture intends, but is simply a
metaphore for the true scriptural principle of God's grace.
I am perfectly happy to discuss God's grace from an honest scriptural
point of view, but those who are sure that only their doctrinal
preconceptions could possibly be correct, and who use this forum simply
to preach, will not openly and honestly discuss scripture with someone
who does not share their dogmatic preconceptions.
The principle doctrines of Christianity today, are metaphores for the
gospel which God first preached to Abraham. God, by His grace, apart
from any law, promised Abraham that a great nation will rise from him
and rule the land of Canaan, and it will be so powerful that it will
bring the blessing of world peace to all the nations, forever.
Beginning with Abraham, the rest of scripture is completely, and
entirely, about the eventual establishment of that great nation which
will bring peace on earth, and good will to all men.
Constantine recognized the gospel, first preached to Abraham, and later
preached to backslidden Jews by Jesus, and then preached to gentiles by
the apostles, as a threat to the national security of the Roman
empire(which had ruled the land of Canaan from the 2nd century BC), and
he arranged for the permanent paganization of the Canaan rule movement
at the first council of Nicea, and the result was the Roman CAtholic
Church, and now her protestant daughters.
God once and for all made the gospel promise, by His grace, to Abraham,
He once and for all chose the nation which would complete His gospel
promise, Israel, and since the fall of covenant Israel around 3000
years ago, we have been in the era of recruiting individuals for the
army which will take back the land of Canaan and resurrect the kingdom
of Israel, so that God's chosen nation can then complete God's gospel
promise, which was made by His grace, to Abraham.
Would anyone care to discuss the scriptural evidence for and against???
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: Support for Covenant of Works? |
28 Dec 2006 07:28:58 PM |
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Michael wrote:
Can you please give me quotes from the Bible that support the covenant
of works, that you have to act in a manner to get into heaven? I have
found only one: Luke 18:22: Now when Jesus heard these things, he
said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and
distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and
come, follow me.
Thank you, Michael
Hello Michael:
Unfortunately, quotes are not likely to help you find the truth about
the issue of grace and works. 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing
denominations can give you quotes to prove their conflicting doctrines,
showing how reliable quotes are...LOL
Scripture was written in flowing text from beginning to end, and was
only divided into quotes(verses) in the middle ages. In spite of the
fact that the flow of scriptural text has been lost due to it's
division into verses, the story is still flowing through the bible for
those with eyes to see it, and recognizing that story will put works
and grace into their proper perspective, much more accurately and
honestly than quotes will.
Don't ask for the verses...ask for the context...
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: Support for Covenant of Works? |
29 Dec 2006 02:59:43 AM |
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On 28 Dec 2006 16:39:18 -0800, while bungee jumping, "Michael"
<zspider@gte.net> shouted thusly:
I have been reading Johnson's History of the American People. He
mentions the early colonists and a conflict between them on a covenant
of works and covenant of grace. The convenant of works states that you
have to act properly to get into heaven, in addition to being a
believer, where as the covenant of grace states that you only need
profess your belief, confess your sins, etc, to get in the door.
That's not true, but it is. :)
Grace is the key, but a real saving faith, produces works.
The works do not save. They are simply the natural
result of a saving faith. The works come after salvation
and are evidence of said salvation, not the cause of it.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
*UNTO* good works, which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: Support for Covenant of Works? |
29 Dec 2006 10:47:29 AM |
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Thank you, Provoker and Azaliah, for your comments on the concepts of
works and grace as depicted in the Bible. You've helped me to see it
more clearly.
Michael
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| User: "Azaliah" |
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| Title: Re: Support for Covenant of Works? |
29 Dec 2006 05:57:41 PM |
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On 29 Dec 2006 08:47:29 -0800, while bungee jumping, "Michael"
<zspider@gte.net> shouted thusly:
Thank you, Provoker and Azaliah, for your comments on the concepts of
works and grace as depicted in the Bible. You've helped me to see it
more clearly.
Thank you, Michael. I am very glad to know that
God used me to contribute help to you in some
small way.
--
Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"
<((>< <((>< <((><
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
..
.
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