| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2008 03:14:35 PM |
| Object: |
The Attainment of Moses |
The following quotes are from Heavenly Torah, by Abraham Joshua
Heschel, on p. 523 and p. 320, respectively:
R. Hayyim Vital wrote, "Know that when Enoch died [sic!], he was at a
higher level than Moses, for he was Moses' teacher; he is the angel
Zagzagel. He attained the level of hayyah [chaya], but Moses only
attained neshamah. But the Messiah will achieve yehidah [yechidah].
Likkutei Torah (Vilna, 5640/1880), 19a.
This agrees totally with the following:
Bahya ben Asher, thirteenth century Spain, commentator and popularizer
of Kabbalah:
There is a glory above the glory. When Moses received the Torah he
achieved seven of the ten Sefirot. He therefore requested that he be
permitted to go higher. The glory that he sought is the supreme
exalted glory called keter, Crown - the luminous mirror. When he
said, "show me," he actually wanted to see it with his naked eye. ...
His request was not granted. He was still a mortal man. Rabbenu
Bahya, Commentary, Exodus 33:18.
[End Quotes]
So, I have been under a misconception. I just assumed that Moses had
access to the same knowledge I have, which is on the level of
Yechidah. Apparently, he did not. He had a much simpler conception
of G-D. In Christian terminology, we would say that Moses had access
only to the third heaven within the Kingdom of God. Chaya is the
fourth heaven, whereas Yechidah encompasses the fifth and sixth
heavens, spiritual Judah and Israel.
Therefore, for instance, Moses would not know how to make sense of
Genesis 18. He would not know that JHVH, from the higher perspective,
is only the angel Raphael. His own Torah must have been quite an
enigma to him, assuming that he really channeled it all.
The evil that I and others perceive in the Torah may have been quite
imperceptible to one with the low degree of attainment of Moses. All
others of his time were even lower than he. He was by modern
standards a primitive man, without what we now call a conscience. The
birth of consciousness and conscience, as we now know them, apparently
had to do with the Advent of Jehoshua Moshiach, the Savior of the
World.
.
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| User: "Dannyil" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 03:29:17 PM |
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On Jan 25, 11:14 pm, wrote:
The following quotes are from Heavenly Torah, by Abraham Joshua
Heschel, on p. 523 and p. 320, respectively:
When it comes to kabbalah, I'm no expert. But when it comes to
translations
I know that Kabbalistic sources are notoriously difficult to
understand.
Any reference to them requires deep understanding of the concepts.
Now, whether or not this person knows his stuff, I have no idea.
For me to comment on this is out of my field of expertise. However,
I do know that you cannot translate Kabbalah into English.
If you wish to bring sources from translations, and then ask questions
on the translations
this is the fault of the translator, and the not original.
I also highly suspect that the translation presented here is not
remotely like the original Hebrew.
R. Hayyim Vital wrote, "Know that when Enoch died [sic!], he was at a
higher level than Moses, for he was Moses' teacher; he is the angel
Zagzagel. He attained the level of hayyah [chaya], but Moses only
attained neshamah. But the Messiah will achieve yehidah [yechidah].
Likkutei Torah (Vilna, 5640/1880), 19a.
If you wish to discuss this you need to quote the original Hebrew.
Also, whatever R. Vital wrote, needs to be carefully understood.
with a master. Often what the Kabbalists teach is greatly
misunderstood.
I also get the feeling that this is quoted out of context.
This agrees totally with the following:
Bahya ben Asher, thirteenth century Spain, commentator and popularizer
of Kabbalah:
There is a glory above the glory. When Moses received the Torah he
achieved seven of the ten Sefirot. He therefore requested that he be
permitted to go higher. The glory that he sought is the supreme
exalted glory called keter, Crown - the luminous mirror. When he
said, "show me," he actually wanted to see it with his naked eye. ...
His request was not granted. He was still a mortal man. Rabbenu
Bahya, Commentary, Exodus 33:18.
[End Quotes]
I would also like to point out that as regards these two quotations.
R. Vital
and Rabbeinu Bachaya, both believed in the absolute authority of the
Torah.
They also denied anything to do with Jesus. Rabbeinu Bachaya is a
Rabbi,
as is R. Vital, who both as you have pointed out in other posts are
liars.
So, I have been under a misconception. I just assumed that Moses had
access to the same knowledge I have, which is on the level of
Yechidah.
What these different levels are in the realm of Kabbalah needs careful
understanding.
I'm not an expert, nor claim to be. I will say this. In order to
understand Kabbalah
you have to be a Torah-scholar, over the age of 40, with children, and
you have to have
a teacher who is an accepted transmitter of the kabbalistic tradition.
Your understanding of these statements is based on a dubious
translation of texts
that probably do not reflect the original. If they do, we certainly
do not understand it.
This is the general point. I don't accept this as a proof of
anything, except for the fact
that your quotations, and interpretations are at best misguided, on
the presumption
that these quotes are representations of the original, and that you
understand them.
I for one, do not understand either quote particularly. I don't
profess to know and understand
this area. The reason I quoted Ezekiel 37:19-end (in the post
entitled: "Jesus the Messiah?") is precisely because it is a clear
text, with little room for ambiguity. There is a clear message, and
the Hebrew text is accessible to everyone.
Apparently, he did not. He had a much simpler conception
of G-D. In Christian terminology, we would say that Moses had access
only to the third heaven within the Kingdom of God. Chaya is the
fourth heaven, whereas Yechidah encompasses the fifth and sixth
heavens, spiritual Judah and Israel.
This again, is not in any standard text. To prove this position, you
need to bring sources.
Therefore, for instance, Moses would not know how to make sense of
Genesis 18. He would not know that JHVH, from the higher perspective,
is only the angel Raphael. His own Torah must have been quite an
enigma to him, assuming that he really channeled it all.
I don't understand this. I don't think you understand this.
The evil that I and others perceive in the Torah may have been quite
imperceptible to one with the low degree ofattainmentof Moses. All
others of his time were even lower than he. He was by modern
standards a primitive man, without what we now call a conscience. The
birth of consciousness and conscience, as we now know them, apparently
had to do with the Advent of Jehoshua Moshiach, the Savior of the
World.
I don't understand this. I don't think you understand this.
See above.
Danny.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 03:33:51 PM |
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On Jan 26, 1:29=A0pm, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 25, 11:14 pm, wrote:
The following quotes are from Heavenly Torah, by Abraham Joshua
Heschel, on p. 523 and p. 320, respectively:
When it comes to kabbalah, I'm no expert. =A0But when it comes to
translations
I know that Kabbalistic sources are notoriously difficult to
understand.
Any reference to them requires deep understanding of the concepts.
Now, whether or not this person knows his stuff, I have no idea.
For me to comment on this is out of my field of expertise. =A0However,
I do know that you cannot translate Kabbalah into English.
If you wish to bring sources from translations, and then ask questions
on the translations
this is the fault of the translator, and the not original.
I also highly suspect that the translation presented here is not
remotely like the original Hebrew.
R. Hayyim Vital wrote, "Know that when Enoch died [sic!], he was at a
higher level than Moses, for he was Moses' teacher; he is the angel
Zagzagel. =A0He attained the level of hayyah [chaya], but Moses only
attained neshamah. =A0But the Messiah will achieve yehidah [yechidah].
Likkutei Torah (Vilna, 5640/1880), 19a.
If you wish to discuss this you need to quote the original Hebrew.
Also, whatever R. Vital wrote, needs to be carefully understood.
with a master. =A0Often what the Kabbalists teach is greatly
misunderstood.
I also get the feeling that this is quoted out of context.
This agrees totally with the following:
Bahya ben Asher, thirteenth century Spain, commentator and popularizer
of Kabbalah:
There is a glory above the glory. =A0When Moses received the Torah he
achieved seven of the ten Sefirot. =A0He therefore requested that he be
permitted to go higher. =A0The glory that he sought is the supreme
exalted glory called keter, Crown - the luminous mirror. =A0When he
said, "show me," he actually wanted to see it with his naked eye. ...
His request was not granted. =A0He was still a mortal man. =A0Rabbenu
Bahya, Commentary, Exodus 33:18.
[End Quotes]
I would also like to point out that as regards these two quotations.
R. Vital
and Rabbeinu Bachaya, both believed in the absolute authority of the
Torah.
They also denied anything to do with Jesus. =A0Rabbeinu Bachaya is a
Rabbi,
as is R. Vital, who both as you have pointed out in other posts are
liars.
I have to go out now, so I will answer you in more depth later, but
let me just say that you still prove yourself incapable of dialogue.
Of course I never said that everything any rabbi has ever said is a
lie, only that they lie habitually to hide faults and contradictions
in their beloved Torah. These particular quotes ring quite true to
me, or I would not have copied them here. Obviously, I believe in the
Torah more than you do or they do, because I take very seriously the
faults and contradictions, whereas you and they habitually attempt to
whitewash the faults and contradictions. Even so, enough remains to
understand what is really going on.
.
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| User: "Dannyil" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 04:07:30 PM |
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I have to go out now, so I will answer you in more depth later, but
let me just say that you still prove yourself incapable of dialogue.
Of course I never said that everything any rabbi has ever said is a
lie, only that they lie habitually to hide faults and contradictions
in their beloved Torah. These particular quotes ring quite true to
me, or I would not have copied them here. Obviously, I believe in the
Torah more than you do or they do, because I take very seriously the
faults and contradictions, whereas you and they habitually attempt to
whitewash the faults and contradictions. Even so, enough remains to
understand what is really going on.
I have mentioned this before, but I will repeat it here.
If you're interested in discussing the faults and contradictions in
the Torah,
I suggest you quote the actual Torah and the contradictions contained
within
with the presumption that the Torah is true.
There is a book written by a scholar by the name of Rashi.
the book is called: "Chumash with Rashi" I suggest you get a copy.
In it, this scholar points out every single fault, and problem with
the text
and provides answers to each one of these problems.
You don't need to go online and discuss it, get the book out
it can be found in many university bookstores, and Jewish bookstores.
There is no 'whitewashing' etc. you have a question, look through the
book
and it will give you the answer,.
Danny
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 05:50:22 PM |
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On Jan 26, 2:07=A0pm, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to go out now, so I will answer you in more depth later, but
let me just say that you still prove yourself incapable of dialogue.
Of course I never said that everything any rabbi has ever said is a
lie, only that they lie habitually to hide faults and contradictions
in their beloved Torah. =A0These particular quotes ring quite true to
me, or I would not have copied them here. =A0Obviously, I believe in the=
Torah more than you do or they do, because I take very seriously the
faults and contradictions, whereas you and they habitually attempt to
whitewash the faults and contradictions. =A0Even so, enough remains to
understand what is really going on.
I have mentioned this before, but I will repeat it here.
If you're interested in discussing the faults and contradictions in
the Torah,
I suggest you quote the actual Torah and the contradictions contained
within
with the presumption that the Torah is true.
There is a book written by a scholar by the name of Rashi.
the book is called: "Chumash with Rashi" I suggest you get a copy.
I will be glad to do so, but I can tell you right now that I will not
buy into his attempts at whitewashing the Torah. I do not idolize the
Torah and consider that approach to be the deathnell of spiritual
life. It all depends what it is that you are after. Your motives are
completely unclear to me. My motive is that I am a spiritual seeker.
I am seeking answers to the enigma of human life. Your motives seem
mixed. You obviously have some interest in the truth, but you are
also tightly bound to the authority of the Torah and the rabbis. In
part, you seem to want to use your religion to beat up others, or in
worst case scenario kill them or genocide them. In part, you are
probably afraid of G-D, since He did threaten you many times. In that
sense, I consider you an abused child, and I know from experience how
hard they are to deal with. I cannot help you, unless you truly want
to be free of your abuser, which you almost certainly do not. In any
case, I will be glad to dialogue with you if we can both agree to
stick to actual texts. So far, however, everytime I point to a text
you can't explain, you simply deny the text. That is fundamentally
dishonest, and we cannot proceed unless you cease and desist with that
type of psychological denial.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 07:26:33 PM |
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wrote:
On Jan 26, 2:07 pm, Dannyil <Freed.Des...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to go out now, so I will answer you in more depth later, but
let me just say that you still prove yourself incapable of dialogue.
Of course I never said that everything any rabbi has ever said is a
lie, only that they lie habitually to hide faults and contradictions
in their beloved Torah. These particular quotes ring quite true to
me, or I would not have copied them here. Obviously, I believe in the
Torah more than you do or they do, because I take very seriously the
faults and contradictions, whereas you and they habitually attempt to
whitewash the faults and contradictions. Even so, enough remains to
understand what is really going on.
I have mentioned this before, but I will repeat it here.
If you're interested in discussing the faults and contradictions in
the Torah,
I suggest you quote the actual Torah and the contradictions contained
within
with the presumption that the Torah is true.
There is a book written by a scholar by the name of Rashi.
the book is called: "Chumash with Rashi" I suggest you get a copy.
I will be glad to do so, but I can tell you right now that I will not
buy into his attempts at whitewashing the Torah. I do not idolize the
Torah and consider that approach to be the deathnell of spiritual
life. It all depends what it is that you are after. Your motives are
completely unclear to me. My motive is that I am a spiritual seeker.
I am seeking answers to the enigma of human life. Your motives seem
mixed. You obviously have some interest in the truth, but you are
also tightly bound to the authority of the Torah and the rabbis. In
part, you seem to want to use your religion to beat up others, or in
worst case scenario kill them or genocide them. In part, you are
probably afraid of G-D, since He did threaten you many times. In that
sense, I consider you an abused child, and I know from experience how
hard they are to deal with. I cannot help you, unless you truly want
to be free of your abuser, which you almost certainly do not. In any
case, I will be glad to dialogue with you if we can both agree to
stick to actual texts. So far, however, everytime I point to a text
you can't explain, you simply deny the text. That is fundamentally
dishonest, and we cannot proceed unless you cease and desist with that
type of psychological denial.
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 07:56:39 PM |
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On Jan 26, 5:26=A0pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 08:01:41 PM |
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wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 11:37:42 PM |
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On Jan 26, 6:01=A0pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =A0That's w=
hy
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =A0Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
26 Jan 2008 11:45:05 PM |
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wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:06:06 AM |
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On Jan 26, 9:45=A0pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =A0That'=
s why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =A0May=
be
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. =A0Jews don't, in case you didn't=
know. =A0Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:16:16 AM |
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wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as a
personal attack?
.
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| User: "RaaN" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 02:49:25 AM |
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On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 02:53:04 AM |
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RaaN wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
Agreed. I've been doing that right along; in fact, you will find that I
was one of the very first to suggest that he obtain help.
I am more gentle with him than I am with some of the more egregious
offenders, but it's important for others who read these NGs to get
correct information about Judaism rather than his half-baked delusions.
I don't care if he talks to the animals. What matters to me is his
outrageous claims about Judaism and being Jewish.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 03:30:52 AM |
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On Jan 27, 12:53=A0am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psa=
lm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =A0T=
hat's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =
=A0Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. =A0Jews don't, in case you d=
idn't
know. =A0Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as =
a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
Agreed. I've been doing that right along; in fact, you will find that I
was one of the very first to suggest that he obtain help.
I am more gentle with him than I am with some of the more egregious
offenders, but it's important for others who read these NGs to get
correct information about Judaism rather than his half-baked delusions.
I don't care if he talks to the animals. What matters to me is his
outrageous claims about Judaism and being Jewish.
You continue to lie. Just because I wipe the floor with your assholes
all night long is no reason to get gossipy.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:26:43 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On Jan 27, 12:53 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
Agreed. I've been doing that right along; in fact, you will find that I
was one of the very first to suggest that he obtain help.
I am more gentle with him than I am with some of the more egregious
offenders, but it's important for others who read these NGs to get
correct information about Judaism rather than his half-baked delusions.
I don't care if he talks to the animals. What matters to me is his
outrageous claims about Judaism and being Jewish.
You continue to lie. Just because I wipe the floor with your assholes
all night long is no reason to get gossipy.
I do not lie. It's offensive to claim that I do when I do not. It's
obnoxious and makes you into a liar. And I'm not being gossipy - it's
the truth, and you don't wipe the floor with anyone - you spread your
ignorance and refuse to accept helpful advice or correction.
In fact, pj, your ignorance of Judaism is only exceeded by your arrogance.
This conversation does not include you. Butt out.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:34:10 PM |
|
|
On Jan 27, 10:26=A0am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 27, 12:53 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and p=
salm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =
=A0That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =
=A0Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.=
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is th=
e
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. =A0Jews don't, in case you=
didn't
know. =A0Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement a=
s a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
Agreed. I've been doing that right along; in fact, you will find that I=
was one of the very first to suggest that he obtain help.
I am more gentle with him than I am with some of the more egregious
offenders, but it's important for others who read these NGs to get
correct information about Judaism rather than his half-baked delusions.=
I don't care if he talks to the animals. What matters to me is his
outrageous claims about Judaism and being Jewish.
You continue to lie. =A0Just because I wipe the floor with your assholes=
all night long is no reason to get gossipy.
I do not lie. It's offensive to claim that I do when I do not. It's
obnoxious and makes you into a liar. =A0And I'm not being gossipy - it's
the truth, and you don't wipe the floor with anyone - you spread your
ignorance and refuse to accept helpful advice or correction.
In fact, pj, your ignorance of Judaism is only exceeded by your arrogance.=
This conversation does not include you. Butt out.
It is my duty to point out your lies. Nothing on this newsgroup is a
private conversation. Fair game, you evil yenta.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:54:28 PM |
|
|
wrote:
On Jan 27, 10:26 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 27, 12:53 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
RaaN wrote:
On Jan 27, 1:16 am, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
You lie, as always.
pj, you project as always. Why do you always interpret disagreement as a
personal attack?
It is undoubtedly due to a psychiatric condition.
Best to be compassionate and advice treatment.
--
RaaN
Agreed. I've been doing that right along; in fact, you will find that I
was one of the very first to suggest that he obtain help.
I am more gentle with him than I am with some of the more egregious
offenders, but it's important for others who read these NGs to get
correct information about Judaism rather than his half-baked delusions.
I don't care if he talks to the animals. What matters to me is his
outrageous claims about Judaism and being Jewish.
You continue to lie. Just because I wipe the floor with your assholes
all night long is no reason to get gossipy.
I do not lie. It's offensive to claim that I do when I do not. It's
obnoxious and makes you into a liar. And I'm not being gossipy - it's
the truth, and you don't wipe the floor with anyone - you spread your
ignorance and refuse to accept helpful advice or correction.
In fact, pj, your ignorance of Judaism is only exceeded by your arrogance.
This conversation does not include you. Butt out.
It is my duty to point out your lies. Nothing on this newsgroup is a
private conversation. Fair game, you evil yenta.
But you should do it honestly, without lying yourself. I keep waiting
for a something true from you It's like waiting for the Messiah.
Think of this conversation not as gossip, but as a clinical description
of your behavior. The advantage to you is that you can learn from it
and change your ways.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:14:04 AM |
|
|
On Jan 26, 9:45=C2=A0pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =C2=A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =C2=A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =C2=
=A0That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =C2=A0=
Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. =C2=A0Jews don't, in case you did=
n't
know. =C2=A0Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (=D7=92=D7=94=D7=99=D7=A0=D7=95=D7=9D)) is th=
e Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. =E2=80=9CGehenna=E2=80=9D i=
s
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^ http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=3D611&letter=3DP&search=
=3Dpurgatory
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=3D467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible=E2=80=99=E2=80=99, p=
243.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 01:01:10 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהינום)) is the Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^ http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible’’, p243.
Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That should
tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor even
if not literally true.
I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate for
me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe to the
view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World to
Come. But that is at odds with the Buddhist view
.
|
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| User: "Mordecai mldavisplease dont" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 01:28:27 AM |
|
|
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
cactus wrote:
pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהי ום)) is the Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^ http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible’’, p243.
Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That should
tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor even
if not literally true.
I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate for
me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe to the
view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World to
Come. But that is at odds with the Buddhist view
I might mention that Gehenna is similar and probably the foundation for the christian
concept of purgatory.
I do not think purgatory is the same as Gehenna even though there are similarities.
Hell has a specific and exact meaning - which developed over several hundred years.
Gehenna cannot be considered hell in the Christian tradition.
One of the posters postulated that there was a valley which was used as a garbage
dump. It included the disposal of the suicide victims who would not be buried in a
Jewish grave. The valley frequently caught fire and stayed burning.
The odour of the garbage dump was awful, and I remember the poster mentioning the
burning of brimstone as a method to try to control said odour.
He postulated that this was the concept behind the Jewish Ideas on Gehenna, and the
subsequent NT ideas on the subject.
The development of hell, satan and destruction in the christian ideas has grown until
it is far removed from the original writings. Not that I know for certain the original
concepts, only that the christian scholars agree to idea development over the
centuries, and the jewish ideas have remained relatively static.
I do not consider that Judaism has a "hell" in any way - and it does not matter if
Gehenna is believed in or not.
I also note that Christianity is defined by beliefs, Judaism by deeds. Ergo there are
debates in Christianity about correct doctrines.
Judaism discusses many things from ... say "no heaven, no hell, no judgement after
death .." through "reincarnation and rebirth ..." to things like resurrection and
judgement. Discussions are just that .... discussions.
To make a claim about what Judaism believes is rather problematic as this is
interpreted by christians and other doctrinal based religions as beliefs and creeds
similar to their own.
I listen, time and again, to people trying to tell Jews what we believe.
I usually do not bother to discuss the issues with them.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is wrong, and
reality is Never wrong.
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<p>cactus wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net wrote:
<br>> On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
<br>>> wrote:
<br>>>> On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
<br>>>>> wrote:
<br>>>>>> On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
<br>>>>>>> You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
<br>>>>>> You don't know who G-D is, do you?
<br>>>>> That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
<br>>>>> And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and
psalm"
<br>>>>> as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing.
That's why
<br>>>>> I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible.
Maybe
<br>>>>> I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
<br>>>> What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is
the
<br>>>> King of Hell, your LORD?
<br>>> Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case
you didn't
<br>>> know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
<br>>
<br>> Liar, liar, pants on fire.
<br>>
<br>> Wikipedia under Gehenna:
<br>>
<br>> Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (×××× ××))
is the Jewish hell or
<br>> purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire
for
<br>> the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
<br>> eternity.[2]
<br>>
<br>> In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
<br>> The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
<br>> Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
<br>> underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
<br>>
<br>> Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
<br>> writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
<br>> its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
<br>>
<br>> In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
<br>> destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
<br>> the dead.
<br>>
<br>> The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
<br>> destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
<br>> from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
<br>> toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
<br>> (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state
where
<br>> the wicked are temporarily punished after death. â€Gehennaâ€
is
<br>> sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
<br>> from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer
in
<br>> Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
<br>> reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
<br>> accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
<br>> forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
<br>> destroyed (see annihilationism).
<br>>
<br>> ^ <a href="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory">http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory</a>
<br>> Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
<br>> ^ <a href="http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467">http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467</a>
The Basics of
<br>> Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
<br>> ^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
<br>> interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
<br>> ^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
<br>> ^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
<br>> ^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
<br>> ^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
<br>> ^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bibleâ€â€,
p243.
<p>Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
<br>roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That
should
<br>tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor
even
<br>if not literally true.
<p>I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
<br>provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
<p>I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
<br>doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate
for
<br>me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe
to the
<br>view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World
to
<br>Come. But that is at odds with the Buddhist view</blockquote>
I might mention that Gehenna is similar and probably the foundation for
the christian concept of purgatory.
<br>I do not think purgatory is the same as Gehenna even though there are
similarities.
<br>Hell has a specific and exact meaning - which developed over several
hundred years.
<br>Gehenna cannot be considered hell in the Christian tradition.
<p>One of the posters postulated that there was a valley which was used
as a garbage dump. It included the disposal of the suicide victims who
would not be buried in a Jewish grave. The valley frequently caught fire
and stayed burning.
<br>The odour of the garbage dump was awful, and I remember the poster
mentioning the burning of brimstone as a method to try to control said
odour.
<br>He postulated that this was the concept behind the Jewish Ideas on
Gehenna, and the subsequent NT ideas on the subject.
<p>The development of hell, satan and destruction in the christian ideas
has grown until it is far removed from the original writings. Not that
I know for certain the original concepts, only that the christian scholars
agree to idea development over the centuries, and the jewish ideas have
remained relatively static.
<p>I do not consider that Judaism has a "hell" in any way - and it does
not matter if Gehenna is believed in or not.
<br>I also note that Christianity is defined by beliefs, Judaism by deeds.
Ergo there are debates in Christianity about correct doctrines.
<p>Judaism discusses many things from ... say "no heaven, no hell, no judgement
after death .." through "reincarnation and rebirth ..." to things like
resurrection and judgement. Discussions are just that .... discussions.
<p>To make a claim about what Judaism believes is rather problematic as
this is interpreted by christians and other doctrinal based religions as
beliefs and creeds similar to their own.
<br>I listen, time and again, to people trying to tell Jews what we believe.
<br>I usually do not bother to discuss the issues with them.
<p>--
<br>Mordecai!
<p>When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
<br>When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality
is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
<br> </html>
--------------9C185D2CC2C77E86866B61F8--
.
|
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 02:24:50 AM |
|
|
Mordecai wrote:
cactus wrote:
pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and
psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing.
That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible.
Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you
didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהי ום)) is the Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
<http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory>
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible’’, p243.
Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That should
tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor even
if not literally true.
I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate for
me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe to the
view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World to
Come. But that is at odds with the Buddhist view
I might mention that Gehenna is similar and probably the foundation for
the christian concept of purgatory.
I do not think purgatory is the same as Gehenna even though there are
similarities.
Hell has a specific and exact meaning - which developed over several
hundred years.
Gehenna cannot be considered hell in the Christian tradition.
I agree with you. There is no equivalence.
One of the posters postulated that there was a valley which was used as
a garbage dump. It included the disposal of the suicide victims who
would not be buried in a Jewish grave. The valley frequently caught fire
and stayed burning.
The odour of the garbage dump was awful, and I remember the poster
mentioning the burning of brimstone as a method to try to control said
odour.
He postulated that this was the concept behind the Jewish Ideas on
Gehenna, and the subsequent NT ideas on the subject.
The development of hell, satan and destruction in the christian ideas
has grown until it is far removed from the original writings. Not that I
know for certain the original concepts, only that the christian scholars
agree to idea development over the centuries, and the jewish ideas have
remained relatively static.
Judaism has also grown over time, in several ways. The first is Halacha
(Jewish Law). We have had to answer the question of how to live
traditionally in the modern world. One example is how to ride an
elevator on Shabbat if one lives on a high floor. A method had to be
found to allow this, and one was. Reincarnation is another idea that is
not Biblical, but has developed within Judaism.
The second is the splitting into movements ranging from the
ultra-Orthodox to the extremely secular. This has been a response to
the Enlightenment, which was the start of Jews entering society in general.
The third is the development of Kabbalah and a mystical movement. The
tradition dates from Ezekiel with his visions (see Aryeh Kaplan's book
"Meditation and the Bible") but took off in the Middle Ages.
The Judaism of today carries on the ancient traditions in modern ways,
but is also very different. We could not have survived had we not
adapted to the times.
I do not consider that Judaism has a "hell" in any way - and it does not
matter if Gehenna is believed in or not.
I also note that Christianity is defined by beliefs, Judaism by deeds.
Ergo there are debates in Christianity about correct doctrines.
Exactly!
Judaism discusses many things from ... say "no heaven, no hell, no
judgement after death .." through "reincarnation and rebirth ..." to
things like resurrection and judgement. Discussions are just that ....
discussions.
To make a claim about what Judaism believes is rather problematic as
this is interpreted by christians and other doctrinal based religions as
beliefs and creeds similar to their own.
I listen, time and again, to people trying to tell Jews what we believe.
I usually do not bother to discuss the issues with them.
Wise. pjmutnick claims to be Jewish, yet shows his ignorance of Judaism
at every turn. He is an example of what you avoid. Would that he
followed your example.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality
is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 01:47:12 AM |
|
|
Mordecai wrote:
cactus wrote:
pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and
psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing.
That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible.
Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you
didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהי ום)) is the Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
<http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory>
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible’’, p243.
Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That should
tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor even
if not literally true.
I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate for
me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe to the
view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World to
Come. But that is at odds with the Buddhist view
I might mention that Gehenna is similar and probably the foundation for
the christian concept of purgatory.
I do not think purgatory is the same as Gehenna even though there are
similarities.
Hell has a specific and exact meaning - which developed over several
hundred years.
Gehenna cannot be considered hell in the Christian tradition.
I agree with you. There is no equivalence.
One of the posters postulated that there was a valley which was used as
a garbage dump. It included the disposal of the suicide victims who
would not be buried in a Jewish grave. The valley frequently caught fire
and stayed burning.
The odour of the garbage dump was awful, and I remember the poster
mentioning the burning of brimstone as a method to try to control said
odour.
He postulated that this was the concept behind the Jewish Ideas on
Gehenna, and the subsequent NT ideas on the subject.
The development of hell, satan and destruction in the christian ideas
has grown until it is far removed from the original writings. Not that I
know for certain the original concepts, only that the christian scholars
agree to idea development over the centuries, and the jewish ideas have
remained relatively static.
Judaism has also grown over time, in several ways. The first is Halacha
(Jewish Law). We have had to answer the question of how to live
traditionally in the modern world. One example is how to ride an
elevator on Shabbat if one lives on a high floor. A method had to be
found to allow this, and one was. Reincarnation is another idea that is
not Biblical, but has developed within Judaism.
The second is the splitting into movements ranging from the
ultra-Orthodox to the extremely secular. This has been a response to
the Enlightenment, which was the start of Jews entering society in general.
The third is the development of Kabbalah and a mystical movement. The
tradition dates from Ezekiel with his visions (see Aryeh Kaplan's book
"Meditation and the Bible") but took off in the Middle Ages.
The Judaism of today carries on the ancient traditions in modern ways,
but is also very different. We could not have survived had we not
adapted to the times.
I do not consider that Judaism has a "hell" in any way - and it does not
matter if Gehenna is believed in or not.
I also note that Christianity is defined by beliefs, Judaism by deeds.
Ergo there are debates in Christianity about correct doctrines.
Exactly!
Judaism discusses many things from ... say "no heaven, no hell, no
judgement after death .." through "reincarnation and rebirth ..." to
things like resurrection and judgement. Discussions are just that ....
discussions.
To make a claim about what Judaism believes is rather problematic as
this is interpreted by christians and other doctrinal based religions as
beliefs and creeds similar to their own.
I listen, time and again, to people trying to tell Jews what we believe.
I usually do not bother to discuss the issues with them.
Wise. pjmutnick claims to be Jewish, yet shows his ignorance of Judaism
at every turn. He is an example of what you avoid. Would that he
followed your example.
Regards
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality
is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:22:08 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. That is to say, beyond knowing. That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
What if your journey is to hell, and sitting there above you is the
King of Hell, your LORD?
Hell is for those who believe in it, pj. Jews don't, in case you didn't
know. Not that I expected you to, because you aren't Jewish.
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Wikipedia under Gehenna:
Gehenna (or gehenom or gehinom (גהינום)) is the Jewish hell or
purgatory. In Judaism hell is a place of purification[1] and fire for
the wicked, most being punished there up to a year but some for
eternity.[2]
In English, Jews commonly use the term "hell" in place of "gehenna."
The name derived from the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the
Hinnom gulch), metaphorically identified with the entrance to the
underworld of punishment in the afterlife.
Gehenna also appears in the New Testament and in early Christian
writing to represent the place where evil will be destroyed. It lends
its name to Islam's hell, Jahannam.
In both Rabbinical Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna as a
destination of the wicked is different from Sheol, the abode of all
the dead.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the
destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away
from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel
toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[5] Gehinom
(Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where
the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is
sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs
from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in
Gehenna no longer than twelve months. Those who are too wicked to
reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[6] Other
accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone
forever,[7] in which case those too wicked for purification are
destroyed (see annihilationism).
^ http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=purgatory
Rabbinic Views of Purgatory
^ http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=467 The Basics of
Judaism: Messiah and the Next World
^ In this teaching they contradicted the Sadducees, whose stricter
interpretation of scripture excluded the resurrection.
^ Bosom of Abraham entry in Catholic Encyclopedia
^ Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition
^ Gehenna in Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906
^ Sheol/Hell/Gehenna
^ Metzger & Coogan (1993) Oxford Companion to the Bible’’, p243.
Notice that the notion did not manifest until Second Temple times,
roughly the same time as Jesus of Nazareth came on scene. That should
tell you something - Jesus brought hell to the Jews. Great metaphor even
if not literally true.
I happen not to subscribe to that notion because of its apparent
provenance. After we die we go with G-d to await the Resurrection.
I do not believe in hell, and I am within the Jewish tradition in not
doing so. I am aware of the other views, but they do not resonate for
me. I don't buy it for an instant. If anything, I subscribe to the
view that the sufficiently wicked do not have a place in the World to
Come. But that's as far as I will take it.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Attainment of Moses |
27 Jan 2008 12:18:41 AM |
|
|
On Jan 26, 10:14=C2=A0pm, wrote:
On Jan 26, 9:45=C2=A0pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 26, 6:01 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:26 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
You don't know who Rashi is, do you?
You don't know who G-D is, do you?
That's not the point. =C2=A0You don't know who Rashi is.
And I subscribe to the concept of G-d as "beyond all praise and psalm=
"
as the Kaddish prayer goes. =C2=A0That is to say, beyond knowing. =C2=
=A0That's why
I'm a mystic I guess, trying to understand the incomprehensible. =C2=
=A0Maybe
I'm right, maybe not. It's not the destination, it's the journey.
</ | | | | | | | | | | | |
