| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
31 Jan 2008 03:37:46 PM |
| Object: |
The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu,
by Gary DeMar
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries
the title “Israel Warns World War III may be Biblical War
of Gog and Magog.
It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel
National News. The article begins with the following
prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and
fundamentalist end time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would
mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog
& Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that
potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed
the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the
two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner
evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy
for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog
refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land
and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel
(Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States,
Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran,
Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog
and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs
of the coming of Christ”. In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote
"Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These". His chapter
on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a
lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at
Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969.
Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic
horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war
with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting.
This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being
set for what could explode into World War III at any
moment". In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor
of California, followed a similar prophetic scri pt:
"Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of
the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come
out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for
generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful
nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem
to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia
was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia
has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia
has set itself against God. Now it fits the de scri ption
of Gog perfectly."
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been
written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it
has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy.
The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over
the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy
as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance
of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel.
Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that
“the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage
[Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some
suspect that it may be on our horizon.".
Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar
claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear
weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was
thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh
century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the
Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was
a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians
briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century,
the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog
profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice.
In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the
end time bad guys.
In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the
forces of Magog-France. For most of the twentieth century,
Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military
aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation
of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying
Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations
in the past is legion.
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change,
the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed
interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence
that modern day prophecy writers are not “profiling
the future through the lens of scri pture” but through
the ever changing headlines of the evening news".
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel
38 and 39 fit modern day military realities that include
jet planes, missiles and atomic and explosive weaponry.
Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have
a problem on their hands!
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one
or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the
soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse
soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and
arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are
made of wood (39:10) and it is these abandoned weapons
that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9).
Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when
the antichrist rises to power to rule the world as; “A wave
of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . .
The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . .
[T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control
the world.”. How does this assessment of the near prophetic
future square with a supposed tribulation period when
Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood
from the forests” (39:10)? There is nothing in the context
that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war
clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything
other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows,
and spears. And what is the Russian air force after?
Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what
modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle?
How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough
to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will
discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to
Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the de scri ption
of ancient war implements by claiming that the various
Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that
could be describing a mechanized force”. The word
translated “horse”, “actually means leaper” that “can
also mean bird, or even chariot-rider”. He tells us that
the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic
term for any weapon or destroying instrument”. In a
similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally
used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as
a missile”.
We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the
[missile]”. Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel
wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad
for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology
requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has
been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500
years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators,
breaks all the rules of exegesis!
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without any quality
of persons. Some must be free, some surfs, some rulers,
some subjects." - Martin Luther
.
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| User: "u2fan" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
31 Jan 2008 04:12:06 PM |
|
|
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
31 Jan 2008 05:06:35 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2fan@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
31 Jan 2008 09:38:10 PM |
|
|
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
The Eastgate is open, the King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
01 Feb 2008 02:27:58 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9eb1c1b6-353d-489f-8a92-fac898c3e7ce@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
GODISNOWHERE (now read it again)
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
Yes, but there are the frauds of the other extreme, isn't there? The ones
who think there ISN'T an end to this age...
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not
escape.
Ike
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
01 Feb 2008 09:47:23 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:38:10 -0800 (PST), gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
But Hal is not a "newspaper prophet", changing what
fulfills the same prophecies with each week's news, right?
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
Of course! And even the first people to see tanks
called them "horses", right?!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
Hahaha!!! They quickly found out that all they know,
is what they're told!
The Dispy's are claim to be concerned with what's inside
and yet, the only concern of their doctrine is what's on
the outside! And the most common reason for rejecting
Preterism? "I just can't believe that the world we see
around us is the kingdom of peace that Jesus promised.".
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"The religion that does not begin at home, does not begin"
- Adrian Rogers
.
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| User: "terry" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
01 Feb 2008 08:33:00 PM |
|
|
Pastor Dave wrote in message
<3jf6q3ldfn0el1746suhg8lq5kjs6pbkdr@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:38:10 -0800 (PST), gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
But Hal is not a "newspaper prophet", changing what
fulfills the same prophecies with each week's news, right?
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
Of course! And even the first people to see tanks
called them "horses", right?!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
Hahaha!!! They quickly found out that all they know,
is what they're told!
The Dispy's are claim to be concerned with what's inside
and yet, the only concern of their doctrine is what's on
the outside! And the most common reason for rejecting
Preterism? "I just can't believe that the world we see
around us is the kingdom of peace that Jesus promised.".
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"The religion that does not begin at home, does not begin"
- Adrian Rogers
Dave, I have a couple of questions for you. Do you hold as heretics those
who reject Preterism? Do you refuse fellowship with those who embrace
futurism? IOW, is that doctrine a point of fellowship for you?
Thanks,
Terry Ivy
.
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| User: "Doug" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 06:13:24 AM |
|
|
On February 1, 2008 09:33 pm, terry <terry@desk.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote in message
<3jf6q3ldfn0el1746suhg8lq5kjs6pbkdr@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:38:10 -0800 (PST), gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
But Hal is not a "newspaper prophet", changing what
fulfills the same prophecies with each week's news, right?
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
Of course! And even the first people to see tanks
called them "horses", right?!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
Hahaha!!! They quickly found out that all they know,
is what they're told!
The Dispy's are claim to be concerned with what's inside
and yet, the only concern of their doctrine is what's on
the outside! And the most common reason for rejecting
Preterism? "I just can't believe that the world we see
around us is the kingdom of peace that Jesus promised.".
Dave, I have a couple of questions for you. Do you hold as heretics those
who reject Preterism? Do you refuse fellowship with those who embrace
futurism? IOW, is that doctrine a point of fellowship for you?
John describes the nations, including Gog and Magog, deceived by Satan,
encompassing the camp of the saints, and the holy city, which is the
church. They are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. [Revelation 20:9]
John refers to Gog and Magog, mentioned in the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39,
which describes an army of horses and horsemen, that comes out of the
north, and invades the land of Israel. They are rained upon with
an "overflowing rain" and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [Ezekiel
38:22]
Ezekiel indicates this is the same army other prophets of God
described. "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in
old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those
days many years that I would bring thee against them?" [Ezekiel 38:17]
The prophet Joel also describes an army that invades the land, which is
called "the northern army". [Joel 2:20] It is apparently an army of
locusts, but they have the appearance of horses, and run like horsemen.
Joel describes the aftermath of the invasion, if people turn to God and
repent, as a welcome rain. "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice
in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and
he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the
latter rain in the first month." Joel 2:23
In Ezekiel's prophecy, the "overflowing rain" is a judgement of God upon the
invaders, accompanied by fire and brimstone. God speaks of the "fire of my
jealousy" in Ezekiel 36:5 and the "fire of my wrath" in Ezekiel 38:19.
Zechariah 14:2 describes all nations gathered against Jerusalem. The city is
taken, and half of it goes into captivity. Then the Lord goes forth and
fights against them. The mount of Olives cleaves in the middle, half moves
to the north, and half to the south. I suggest this pictures two popular
interpretations of the Olivet prophecy of Jesus, dispensationalism and
preterism. These dogmas ride many, like horsemen riding horses.
Zechariah describes a river of living waters that flows from Jerusalem: "And
it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be." [Zechariah 14:8] Verse 17 says that
rain will be denied to those who will not worship God.
Ezekiel says the fate of the invaders is to be "slain" on the mountains of
Israel, and their carcases are then used for fuel. Their stink will "stop
the noses" of the people, and it takes 7 month to bury all of them. Joel's
prophecy also refers to the stink. "But I will remove far off from you the
northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his
face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and
his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath
done great things." [Joel 2:20]
Zechariah describes an awful plague that smites all the enemies of God,
along with their horses, mules, and camels. "And this shall be the plague
wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against
Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,
and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall
consume away in their mouth." [Zechariah 14:12] They would of course become
quite unattractive, and blind, and their speech would be incoherent.
In these prophecies, the fire, rain, and the river of living waters are all
metaphors for the word of God. Isaiah wrote: "For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the
earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the
sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of
my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that
which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye
shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the
hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the
field shall clap their hands." [Isaiah 55:10-12]
Mountains and hills are prominent features of the promised land, and so they
represent the promises of God to his saints. When they break out into
singing and trees clap their hands, what a fine concert that must be!
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
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| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 12:38:43 PM |
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"Doug" <tcc@sentex.net> wrote in message
news:9cudndtht4X5wznanZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@sentex.net...
On February 1, 2008 09:33 pm, terry <terry@desk.com> wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote in message
<3jf6q3ldfn0el1746suhg8lq5kjs6pbkdr@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:38:10 -0800 (PST), gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Jan 31, 4:06 pm, Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:12:06 -0800 (PST), u2fan
<crazyu2...@googlemail.com> spake thusly:
Gog and Magog is 1000 years after Christ returns everyone knows that
( Revelation 20 , Ezek 38 ) is after the 1000 years and Ezek 37 when
Christ has returned in Revelation 19.
Apparently, my post bothered you! But thanks for
showing us how you were unable to deal with one
single word that I posted and instead, told us about
more of your fantasies, which you try to justify with
what you claim the majority opinion is!
Tell us, when are you going to become an evolutionist?
After all, that is "majority opinion" and according to you,
that is the gauge by which to measure truth.
I really wonder how the Lord will figure out when He is suppose to
come back. Some Dispys say like u2fan, after the Millennium, some
before, some before the Tribulation, and all because Gog and Magog is
coming to get them. The fear they have of Gog and Magog is
palpable. Such great faith!
I ran into these two characters being discussed the other day by some
Dispy "friends" of mine, who were all of a sudden experts and going to
enlighten me about their recently aquired knowledge of these
mysterious characters. Apparently Pope Hal Lindsey, has been
prognosticating again because of the instability of Putin in Russia,
and the snow storms in China, which are going to drive these two to
attack Israel. Apparently they get so hungry, that even the few
cattle of Israel will attract their avarice.
But Hal is not a "newspaper prophet", changing what
fulfills the same prophecies with each week's news, right?
Now it is no problem about the ancient weapons being used, because it
is really just a matter of renaming a particular missle system, a
Bow, and Arrow. Same with calling tanks, Horses and Chariots. Then
when we read the scriptures, it is no big deal that the scripture
talks about Bows and Arrows, Horses, and Chariots. Apparently the
prophet was using the words as we understand them now in our day and
age. He was just using their new name, and if no one else in 2500
years did not understand, that is alright because it was not about
them anyway - It is really about us now! That being the primary
interpretive tool of the Dispys! Yeah Right!!!!
Of course! And even the first people to see tanks
called them "horses", right?!
The Same Dispy Friends, became real angry at me, when I ask them the
same questions you put forth here. Seems Papa Hal, had not pointed
out to them that there were a few problems with his interpretation.
Problems big enough to drive a Mac truck through. But again no
problem, all they have to do then, is say that Jesus is going to have
to judge the world because of the Homosexual problem. He could not
have allowed Sodom and Gomorrah to exist, if he does not judge the
Homosexuals now.
I said what? What does that have to do with Ezekiel? Seems all the
Dispys are taught the same "duck and weave" exegesis from their
schools of higher theological learning, Hal LIndsey and Jack Van Impe
being their chief avatars! LOL
Apparently you can always blame someone else for making you take a
bite of the apple, still today.
Hahaha!!! They quickly found out that all they know,
is what they're told!
The Dispy's are claim to be concerned with what's inside
and yet, the only concern of their doctrine is what's on
the outside! And the most common reason for rejecting
Preterism? "I just can't believe that the world we see
around us is the kingdom of peace that Jesus promised.".
Dave, I have a couple of questions for you. Do you hold as heretics those
who reject Preterism? Do you refuse fellowship with those who embrace
futurism? IOW, is that doctrine a point of fellowship for you?
John describes the nations, including Gog and Magog, deceived by Satan,
encompassing the camp of the saints, and the holy city, which is the
church. They are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. [Revelation
20:9]
John refers to Gog and Magog, mentioned in the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 &
39,
which describes an army of horses and horsemen, that comes out of the
north, and invades the land of Israel. They are rained upon with
an "overflowing rain" and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [Ezekiel
38:22]
Ezekiel indicates this is the same army other prophets of God
described. "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in
old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those
days many years that I would bring thee against them?" [Ezekiel 38:17]
The prophet Joel also describes an army that invades the land, which is
called "the northern army". [Joel 2:20] It is apparently an army of
locusts, but they have the appearance of horses, and run like horsemen.
Joel describes the aftermath of the invasion, if people turn to God and
repent, as a welcome rain. "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice
in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately,
and
he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the
latter rain in the first month." Joel 2:23
In Ezekiel's prophecy, the "overflowing rain" is a judgement of God upon
the
invaders, accompanied by fire and brimstone. God speaks of the "fire of my
jealousy" in Ezekiel 36:5 and the "fire of my wrath" in Ezekiel 38:19.
Zechariah 14:2 describes all nations gathered against Jerusalem. The city
is
taken, and half of it goes into captivity. Then the Lord goes forth and
fights against them. The mount of Olives cleaves in the middle, half moves
to the north, and half to the south. I suggest this pictures two popular
interpretations of the Olivet prophecy of Jesus, dispensationalism and
preterism. These dogmas ride many, like horsemen riding horses.
Zechariah describes a river of living waters that flows from Jerusalem:
"And
it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder
sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be." [Zechariah 14:8] Verse 17 says that
rain will be denied to those who will not worship God.
Ezekiel says the fate of the invaders is to be "slain" on the mountains of
Israel, and their carcases are then used for fuel. Their stink will "stop
the noses" of the people, and it takes 7 month to bury all of them. Joel's
prophecy also refers to the stink. "But I will remove far off from you the
northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with
his
face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and
his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath
done great things." [Joel 2:20]
Zechariah describes an awful plague that smites all the enemies of God,
along with their horses, mules, and camels. "And this shall be the plague
wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against
Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their
feet,
and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall
consume away in their mouth." [Zechariah 14:12] They would of course
become
quite unattractive, and blind, and their speech would be incoherent.
In these prophecies, the fire, rain, and the river of living waters are
all
metaphors for the word of God. Isaiah wrote: "For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the
earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the
sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of
my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that
which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For
ye
shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the
hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the
field shall clap their hands." [Isaiah 55:10-12]
Mountains and hills are prominent features of the promised land, and so
they
represent the promises of God to his saints. When they break out into
singing and trees clap their hands, what a fine concert that must be!
Doug
Now, did you get all that, Terry? Clear as mud, right?
'old Dougie here slams together prophecies without rhyme or reason, not
providing any biblical precedences or citations for a single thing he is
saying, which is all very convenient for him--he doesn't actually have to
say anything comprehensible, he just has to SOUND like it, and then he can
arrive at the conclusion he intended to arrive at in the first place (which,
of course, goes against the content of scripture when taken in its proper
contexts).
What a system.
I'm sure Dougie will when next year's "carefully crafted fable" award.
Ike
Ike
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 04:03:28 PM |
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On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:33:00 -0600, "terry" <terry@desk.com>
spake thusly:
Dave, I have a couple of questions for you.
Even though you snipped dodged my post,
I will say "fair enough" and answer them.
Do you hold as heretics those who reject Preterism?
Honestly, I haven't come to a conclusion on that yet.
Do you refuse fellowship with those who embrace
futurism?
No.
IOW, is that doctrine a point of fellowship for you?
No.
And now let me ask you a question, Terry...
Isn't it hypocritical for you to ask these questions,
after calling me a heretic and refusing to communicate
with me, because of my eschatological beliefs?
Oh, but you did take the time to communicate with me
to ask me questions that I believe are hypocritical for
you to ask. Hmmm... More hypocrisy?
Think about it, Terry.
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth
upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt"
- Isaiah 19:1 (a prophecy about Egypt,
fulfilled in 480 B.C.)
.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 06:09:52 PM |
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|
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:03:28 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:33:00 -0600, "terry" <terry@desk.com>
spake thusly:
Dave, I have a couple of questions for you.
Even though you snipped dodged my post,
I will say "fair enough" and answer them.
Do you hold as heretics those who reject Preterism?
Honestly, I haven't come to a conclusion on that yet.
Do you refuse fellowship with those who embrace
futurism?
No.
IOW, is that doctrine a point of fellowship for you?
No.
And now let me ask you a question, Terry...
Isn't it hypocritical for you to ask these questions,
after calling me a heretic and refusing to communicate
with me, because of my eschatological beliefs?
Oh, but you did take the time to communicate with me
to ask me questions that I believe are hypocritical for
you to ask. Hmmm... More hypocrisy?
Think about it, Terry.
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and Darby
Dispensationalist, all grew out of the Great Awakening,
led by the Millerites, which occurred in the early
1830s. Miller initially was in New York, where Joseph
Smith was motivated by the spiritual renewal, to the
point of using special glasses to read the golden
plates. Turns out there was a great interest at that
time of finding secret treasures, hidden by the
Indians, and others also supposedly found similar
plates, and also ended up with special glasses. Joseph
Smith was just a better PR man!
Millerism eventually made it to England, where it found
a ripe bed of discontent among the Anglican churches,
expecially in Plymouth, away from the main religious
centers. The JWs, Adventist, and Darbyites. all came
from this area at the same time and had Miller in
common. Basically, they were all looked on as country
bumkins by the mainline Anglicans! Similar to how some
have perceived the early Pentecostals of Azuza St.
Zealots, but not well trained in theology and in
particular eschatology, which up to that time was not
particularly emphasized in the Anglican Ch. These all
represented grass root religious revivals, of well
intended, but poorly informed religious zealots. All
with a particular zeal for the Prophecy of Daniel.
The Millerites were specifically interested in the
prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching that the Lord
would come back in 1844. When that did not occur, most
of his followers, returned to the church of their
origin. However these groups represented other
religious zealots which were not so eaily persuaded
that the Lord in fact had not come back invisibly. So
they formed that group which holds dearly to the newest
current newpaper Prophets report that the Lord is here
invisibly, and soon to be visible.
The imminancy of His return has fueled the zealotry of
this Pop-Christianity, with its emphasis not on living
the Christian Life, but instead of being "raptured"
out, and so absolving us of any responsibility to
preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, and infact
maintaining that we are infact Ambassadors of His
Kingdom, now here on Earth. Some even deny that we are
Ambassadors at all, and even deny the Book of Hebrews
which makes, according to them, this rediculous claim.
With the Failure of their expectation for an Earthly
Kingdom many still go back to their churches, to hold
on to the shreds of hope they have left while the
newspaper prophets still indulge them in
Pop-Christianity, the religious drug of their choice!
Even the Politicians learn to use the vocabulary that
will earn them a pass with the Fundy Dispys still
today. All they have to do, is mention the Rapture,
and then they are given the Good Religion Seal of
Approval, which then gives the newpaper prophets more
to get excited about as they look for fulfillment of
prophecy in their life. Afterall, it is about their
life, and not even the life of the Dispys who preceded
them. Obviously those who preceded them did not know
what they were talking about, even to saying the
Apostles did not know what they were saying as well! So
much for Apostolic authority! Yet then they will claim
that they believe the Scriptures, penned by these same
Apostles. Just as long as they can say it is about
themselves today. Throw in a few good terms like, the
Rapture, the Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, and 666, and
the newspaper prophets have enough "facts" to fleece
the flock indefinitely. Some even become politicians!
What is really amazing, though, is that even those who
do not claim to be Christians, or where there is little
evidence to the contrary, can get involved in
Pop-Christianity, with no fear of being exposed. In
fact, there is no attempt to expose them at all, but
instead a secret approval, for as the saying in
Hollywood goes, " Any news is good news, just don't let
them forget your name!" And so it comes down to
selling newspapers, and telling Lies and Damn Lies, and
that is what newspaper prophets do the best! And we
still buy the newspaper!
--
The Eastgate is Open, The King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 07:25:42 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:09:52 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and
Darby Dispensationalist, all grew out of the
Great Awakening, led by the Millerites, which
occurred in the early 1830s. Miller initially
I am well familiar with Miller, but thank you.
The Millerites were specifically interested in
the prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching
that the Lord would come back in 1844.
When that did not occur, most of his followers,
returned to the church of their origin. However
these groups represented other religious zealots
which were not so eaily persuaded that the Lord
in fact had not come back invisibly. So they
formed that group which holds dearly to the
newest current newpaper Prophets report that
the Lord is here invisibly, and soon to be visible.
Yea, I have heard that. :)
The imminancy of His return has fueled
the zealotry of this Pop-Christianity
And "imminent" means, "thousands of years, but when
it happens, it'll happen quickly and oh by the way,
when talking about US, NOW, imminent means just
what it really means, that we pretend it doesn't,
until we're talking about OUR TIME and then it means
at any moment and within our generation!".
with its emphasis not on living the Christian Life,
but instead of being "raptured" out, and so
absolving us of any responsibility to preach the
Gospel of the Kingdom, and infact maintaining
that we are infact Ambassadors of His Kingdom,
now here on Earth.
Yup! It's all about revenge! "I can't wait for
the Lord to return and burn them all! But
don't worry, we won't be here for it! We'll
come back with Jesus and judge them and
have a good laugh at their expense!".
Yes Tom, don't you just love these great
Christian qualities involved in being Futurists?!
Some even deny that we are Ambassadors at all,
and even deny the Book of Hebrews which makes,
according to them, this rediculous claim.
Well, don't you know that if something disagrees
with your doctrine, that you have three steps to
perform?
1) Deny that it says what it says.
2) Reword it.
And when 1 + 2 fail, change gears, pretending
the other person won't notice and deny you did it
and say...
3) That book doesn't count and wasn't inspired.
Even the Politicians learn to use the vocabulary
that will earn them a pass with the Fundy Dispys
still today.
Why do you think the U.S. tries to restrain Israel?
There isn't a nation on Earth (barring nuclear war)
that could stand up to Israel, except possibly us.
Wars now are air wars and Israel has a far superior
air force, even over the U.S.! They can fly far more
sorties and for far longer than we can! The only
reason we might win, is because their land area
is so small and ours is so large for them to cover
and we have more places to strike from (bases).
What is really amazing, though, is that even those
who do not claim to be Christians, or where there
is little evidence to the contrary, can get involved
in Pop-Christianity, with no fear of being exposed.
Amen! And btw, what is it that atheists make fun of
Christians for? What Christians deny, of course and
yet are doing, which is regarding Matthew 24:34!
The atheists know damn well what it says and according
to Deut 18:20-22, if Jesus has not returned yet, then
the Jews were right for having Him crucified and He
dies for His own sins, not ours!
I am having a discussion with someone right now,
who is trying to claim that he is not adding words,
when He claims that Jesus said, "The generation that
sees the signs, is the generation I'm talking about.".
He also denies that anyone taught him that! <chuckle>
They just don't want to get it! The fact is, that Jesus
said that the current generation would not pass,
until all of those things took place. So either:
1) They did.
If #1, then He kept His promise.
2) He was a liar.
If #2, then He should have died, according to
Deut 18:20-22, period, end of story.
3) He was self-deluded.
If #3, then we should pity Him.
What these people basically do, is turn Jesus into
a babbling idiot. They have Him saying, "Hey,
the generation that sees the signs, will be the
generation that sees the signs!". <chuckle>
And what they cannot understand, is that maybe,
just maybe, they're wrong about what the fulfillment
of these signs was and what the signs themselves
actually were! That is just too much for them to
fathom! And hey, they just can't be wrong,
because when you say that, they can just simply
claim, "The Holy Spirit told me!".
--
O
/
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<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
We are born wet, naked and hungry. Then things get worse.
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
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| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 10:22:29 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:25:42 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:09:52 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and
Darby Dispensationalist, all grew out of the
Great Awakening, led by the Millerites, which
occurred in the early 1830s. Miller initially
I am well familiar with Miller, but thank you.
I expected you were, but then I was writing this for
the edification of Randy, who apparently has yet to
familiarize himself with the notorious and very seedy
history of the Dispensationalist! Others are welcome to
be edified as well! :)
The Millerites were specifically interested in
the prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching
that the Lord would come back in 1844.
When that did not occur, most of his followers,
returned to the church of their origin. However
these groups represented other religious zealots
which were not so eaily persuaded that the Lord
in fact had not come back invisibly. So they
formed that group which holds dearly to the
newest current newpaper Prophets report that
the Lord is here invisibly, and soon to be visible.
Yea, I have heard that. :)
The JWs have had the date figured out a number of
times. The Adventists, had groups which sold all their
belongings, and went out and stood on mountain tops
(actually hilltops, since the mtns of Penn. and Ohio
are not all that tall - :) in their bedsheets. Recently
in 1988 (and again in 1989) they had 88 reasons why the
Lord was coming back in 88. Then in 2000 the Y2K bug
was suppose to usher in the Lord's return! Then 9/11,
then...... did you see those bombs going off in
Bagdad? Certainly that must have had some scriptural
significance! :) LOL
The imminancy of His return has fueled
the zealotry of this Pop-Christianity
And "imminent" means, "thousands of years, but when
it happens, it'll happen quickly and oh by the way,
when talking about US, NOW, imminent means just
what it really means, that we pretend it doesn't,
until we're talking about OUR TIME and then it means
at any moment and within our generation!".
with its emphasis not on living the Christian Life,
but instead of being "raptured" out, and so
absolving us of any responsibility to preach the
Gospel of the Kingdom, and infact maintaining
that we are infact Ambassadors of His Kingdom,
now here on Earth.
Yup! It's all about revenge! "I can't wait for
the Lord to return and burn them all! But
don't worry, we won't be here for it! We'll
come back with Jesus and judge them and
have a good laugh at their expense!".
Yes Tom, don't you just love these great
Christian qualities involved in being Futurists?!
Some even deny that we are Ambassadors at all,
and even deny the Book of Hebrews which makes,
according to them, this rediculous claim.
Well, don't you know that if something disagrees
with your doctrine, that you have three steps to
perform?
1) Deny that it says what it says.
2) Reword it.
And when 1 + 2 fail, change gears, pretending
the other person won't notice and deny you did it
and say...
3) That book doesn't count and wasn't inspired.
Even the Politicians learn to use the vocabulary
that will earn them a pass with the Fundy Dispys
still today.
Why do you think the U.S. tries to restrain Israel?
There isn't a nation on Earth (barring nuclear war)
that could stand up to Israel, except possibly us.
Wars now are air wars and Israel has a far superior
air force, even over the U.S.! They can fly far more
sorties and for far longer than we can! The only
reason we might win, is because their land area
is so small and ours is so large for them to cover
and we have more places to strike from (bases).
What is really amazing, though, is that even those
who do not claim to be Christians, or where there
is little evidence to the contrary, can get involved
in Pop-Christianity, with no fear of being exposed.
Amen! And btw, what is it that atheists make fun of
Christians for? What Christians deny, of course and
yet are doing, which is regarding Matthew 24:34!
The atheists know damn well what it says and according
to Deut 18:20-22, if Jesus has not returned yet, then
the Jews were right for having Him crucified and He
dies for His own sins, not ours!
I am having a discussion with someone right now,
who is trying to claim that he is not adding words,
when He claims that Jesus said, "The generation that
sees the signs, is the generation I'm talking about.".
He also denies that anyone taught him that! <chuckle>
They just don't want to get it! The fact is, that Jesus
said that the current generation would not pass,
until all of those things took place. So either:
1) They did.
If #1, then He kept His promise.
2) He was a liar.
If #2, then He should have died, according to
Deut 18:20-22, period, end of story.
3) He was self-deluded.
If #3, then we should pity Him.
What these people basically do, is turn Jesus into
a babbling idiot. They have Him saying, "Hey,
the generation that sees the signs, will be the
generation that sees the signs!". <chuckle>
And what they cannot understand, is that maybe,
just maybe, they're wrong about what the fulfillment
of these signs was and what the signs themselves
actually were! That is just too much for them to
fathom! And hey, they just can't be wrong,
because when you say that, they can just simply
claim, "The Holy Spirit told me!".
The excuse about the Last Days, takes me back to school
days, and the proverbial excuse, "The Dog ate my
homework,.... termpaper, etc. "
According to Daniel, the interpretation of Daniel was
locked up until the Last Days, such that it could not
be understood. Now the Dispys claim they understand
it, because they are in the Last Days now. So I ask
them when did the Last Days begin. Darby said he
understood them, so they had to have started at least
by the early 1800 according to the Dispys!
Then we read that Jesus said that certain things
happened according to Daniel, so He must have had an
understanding, which He shared with the Disciples, so
they understood. That means that first century was the
Last days. But then our Dispy friends insist that the
Disciples did not really understand the prophecy of
Daniel, and that it was not about them back in the 1st
Century, but about the 21st Century, which would not
have included Darby in the 19th Century.
So all of Darby's prognostications were just BS being
slung around, and we can not accept anything Darby said
as authoritative about us being in the last days now
(then).
The bottom line is by what authority, do the Dispys
claim that they are now in the Last Days, other than
the fact they sure do hope so! In the meantime, they
keep pulling the quick shuffle with what the Last Days
really are, and when they are, and who cares, as long
as they are the chosen generation. Apparently they
seem to think that if they say " Me, Me!" loud enough,
and enough times, then Jesus will pick them above all
the other generations which have preceded them!
Of course if the last days have been going on for 2000+
years, then it was a totally meaningless term even used
by Jesus, since the definition is so broad to possibly
include every generation that has lived since the first
century. By this small detail, their emphasis on their
being in the Last Days now, is equally meaningless, and
this generation, is equally insignificant. They are
nothing more than bugs on the windshield of time!!! :)
--
The Eastgate is Open, The King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
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|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
03 Feb 2008 03:55:30 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nkeaq39t3kqbnlj2qeh6047u7lagod4r8o@4ax.com...
[snip]
Then we read that Jesus said that certain things
happened according to Daniel, so He must have had an
understanding, which He shared with the Disciples, so
they understood.
LOL
But they didn't understand.
The Jews didn't understand why Daniel did not fully come to fruition in the
events that occurred between the destruction of the first temple and the end
of the Maccabean Revolt, and were left standing in the dark.
The Christians in the first two centuries AD didn't understand why Daniel
did not fully come to fruition in the events that occurred between Pompeii's
defilement and the end of the bar Chocba revolt, either, and were left
standing in the dark.
Neither one of them understood that the events of their times were only
iterations of events serving as precursors of the end times, when God puts A
squared together with B squared to make C squared.
And neither do you, which means you know just about as much about the
subject as those you accuse, which is to say, nothing.
Ike
.
|
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| User: "Mikal119" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 10:49:32 PM |
|
|
On Feb 2, 10:22 pm, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:25:42 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:09:52 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastg...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and
Darby Dispensationalist, all grew out of the
Great Awakening, led by the Millerites, which
occurred in the early 1830s. Miller initially
I am well familiar with Miller, but thank you.
I expected you were, but then I was writing this for
the edification of Randy, who apparently has yet to
familiarize himself with the notorious and very seedy
history of the Dispensationalist! Others are welcome to
be edified as well! :)
The Millerites were specifically interested in
the prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching
that the Lord would come back in 1844.
When that did not occur, most of his followers,
returned to the church of their origin. However
these groups represented other religious zealots
which were not so eaily persuaded that the Lord
in fact had not come back invisibly. So they
formed that group which holds dearly to the
newest current newpaper Prophets report that
the Lord is here invisibly, and soon to be visible.
Yea, I have heard that. :)
The JWs have had the date figured out a number of
times. The Adventists, had groups which sold all their
belongings, and went out and stood on mountain tops
(actually hilltops, since the mtns of Penn. and Ohio
are not all that tall - :) in their bedsheets. Recently
in 1988 (and again in 1989) they had 88 reasons why the
Lord was coming back in 88. Then in 2000 the Y2K bug
was suppose to usher in the Lord's return! Then 9/11,
then...... did you see those bombs going off in
Bagdad? Certainly that must have had some scriptural
significance! :) LOL
The imminancy of His return has fueled
the zealotry of this Pop-Christianity
And "imminent" means, "thousands of years, but when
it happens, it'll happen quickly and oh by the way,
when talking about US, NOW, imminent means just
what it really means, that we pretend it doesn't,
until we're talking about OUR TIME and then it means
at any moment and within our generation!".
with its emphasis not on living the Christian Life,
but instead of being "raptured" out, and so
absolving us of any responsibility to preach the
Gospel of the Kingdom, and infact maintaining
that we are infact Ambassadors of His Kingdom,
now here on Earth.
Yup! It's all about revenge! "I can't wait for
the Lord to return and burn them all! But
don't worry, we won't be here for it! We'll
come back with Jesus and judge them and
have a good laugh at their expense!".
Yes Tom, don't you just love these great
Christian qualities involved in being Futurists?!
Some even deny that we are Ambassadors at all,
and even deny the Book of Hebrews which makes,
according to them, this rediculous claim.
Well, don't you know that if something disagrees
with your doctrine, that you have three steps to
perform?
1) Deny that it says what it says.
2) Reword it.
And when 1 + 2 fail, change gears, pretending
the other person won't notice and deny you did it
and say...
3) That book doesn't count and wasn't inspired.
Even the Politicians learn to use the vocabulary
that will earn them a pass with the Fundy Dispys
still today.
Why do you think the U.S. tries to restrain Israel?
There isn't a nation on Earth (barring nuclear war)
that could stand up to Israel, except possibly us.
Wars now are air wars and Israel has a far superior
air force, even over the U.S.! They can fly far more
sorties and for far longer than we can! The only
reason we might win, is because their land area
is so small and ours is so large for them to cover
and we have more places to strike from (bases).
What is really amazing, though, is that even those
who do not claim to be Christians, or where there
is little evidence to the contrary, can get involved
in Pop-Christianity, with no fear of being exposed.
Amen! And btw, what is it that atheists make fun of
Christians for? What Christians deny, of course and
yet are doing, which is regarding Matthew 24:34!
The atheists know damn well what it says and according
to Deut 18:20-22, if Jesus has not returned yet, then
the Jews were right for having Him crucified and He
dies for His own sins, not ours!
I am having a discussion with someone right now,
who is trying to claim that he is not adding words,
when He claims that Jesus said, "The generation that
sees the signs, is the generation I'm talking about.".
He also denies that anyone taught him that! <chuckle>
They just don't want to get it! The fact is, that Jesus
said that the current generation would not pass,
until all of those things took place. So either:
1) They did.
If #1, then He kept His promise.
2) He was a liar.
If #2, then He should have died, according to
Deut 18:20-22, period, end of story.
3) He was self-deluded.
If #3, then we should pity Him.
What these people basically do, is turn Jesus into
a babbling idiot. They have Him saying, "Hey,
the generation that sees the signs, will be the
generation that sees the signs!". <chuckle>
And what they cannot understand, is that maybe,
just maybe, they're wrong about what the fulfillment
of these signs was and what the signs themselves
actually were! That is just too much for them to
fathom! And hey, they just can't be wrong,
because when you say that, they can just simply
claim, "The Holy Spirit told me!".
The excuse about the Last Days, takes me back to school
days, and the proverbial excuse, "The Dog ate my
homework,.... termpaper, etc. "
According to Daniel, the interpretation of Daniel was
locked up until the Last Days, such that it could not
be understood. Now the Dispys claim they understand
it, because they are in the Last Days now. So I ask
them when did the Last Days begin. Darby said he
understood them, so they had to have started at least
by the early 1800 according to the Dispys!
Then we read that Jesus said that certain things
happened according to Daniel, so He must have had an
understanding, which He shared with the Disciples, so
they understood. That means that first century was the
Last days. But then our Dispy friends insist that the
Disciples did not really understand the prophecy of
Daniel, and that it was not about them back in the 1st
Century, but about the 21st Century, which would not
have included Darby in the 19th Century.
So all of Darby's prognostications were just BS being
slung around, and we can not accept anything Darby said
as authoritative about us being in the last days now
(then).
The bottom line is by what authority, do the Dispys
claim that they are now in the Last Days, other than
the fact they sure do hope so! In the meantime, they
keep pulling the quick shuffle with what the Last Days
really are, and when they are, and who cares, as long
as they are the chosen generation. Apparently they
seem to think that if they say " Me, Me!" loud enough,
and enough times, then Jesus will pick them above all
the other generations which have preceded them!
Of course if the last days have been going on for 2000+
years, then it was a totally meaningless term even used
by Jesus, since the definition is so broad to possibly
include every generation that has lived since the first
century. By this small detail, their emphasis on their
being in the Last Days now, is equally meaningless, and
this generation, is equally insignificant. They are
nothing more than bugs on the windshield of time!!! :)
--
The Eastgate is Open, The King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
The definition of "last days" then becomes important.I can accept that
the generation of Jesus was the "last days" of the old creation having
to live under the "old" law.
If you want to claim that the last days mean all was fulfilled, the
fact that we do not have peace on earth, new spirit bodies free of
disease and immortal, and the like would suggest Jesus was not the
messiah and a failure.Since this is personal to me, in that Diana and
myself knew about major events before they happened because of the
Spirit of Jesus working in us, I cannot agree that those were the last
days in which all would be revealed and the Kingdom would be
established on earth. I have already remarked to dave they could have
been the last days that the leadership *in heaven* did not have a
human King to sit on the throne.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 11:20:32 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:22:29 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:25:42 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:09:52 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and
Darby Dispensationalist, all grew out of the
Great Awakening, led by the Millerites, which
occurred in the early 1830s. Miller initially
I am well familiar with Miller, but thank you.
I expected you were, but then I was writing this for
the edification of Randy, who apparently has yet to
familiarize himself with the notorious and very seedy
history of the Dispensationalist! Others are welcome to
be edified as well! :)
I figured as much. :) But Randy doesn't give a crap.
I simply do not speak to him any more. He always
ignored rebuttals and then when you pointed out
his error, he always tried to turn it around, by twisting
what you said and claiming you were guilty of it,
which only proved that he knew he had nothing
of his own to respond with and so, was admitting
his defeat with every message! That's why he also
always just kept repeating his original message to
our rebuttal of his original message and pretended
it was a new response! <chuckle>
On a personal level, he was a nice guy and I wish him
no harm. But in eschatology, he was a demon!
The Millerites were specifically interested in
the prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching
that the Lord would come back in 1844.
When that did not occur, most of his followers,
returned to the church of their origin. However
these groups represented other religious zealots
which were not so eaily persuaded that the Lord
in fact had not come back invisibly. So they
formed that group which holds dearly to the
newest current newpaper Prophets report that
the Lord is here invisibly, and soon to be visible.
Yea, I have heard that. :)
The JWs have had the date figured out a number of
times.
I always ask JW's... "If there will only be 144,000,
what will you do, considering that there had to be
at least 144,000 good JW's by now and so, why
do you bother, since only JW's can go to Heaven
and since only 144,000 JW's can?".
This always shuts them up! :)
The excuse about the Last Days, takes me back to school
days, and the proverbial excuse, "The Dog ate my
homework,.... termpaper, etc. "
According to Daniel, the interpretation of Daniel was
locked up until the Last Days, such that it could not
be understood. Now the Dispys claim they understand
it, because they are in the Last Days now. So I ask
them when did the Last Days begin. Darby said he
understood them, so they had to have started at least
by the early 1800 according to the Dispys!
Well, what is interesting, is that Daniel tied
"the time of the end" (note he didn't say,
"the end of time") to the time of the Messiah's
appearance. Now when I mention this and
prove this, the Dispy's run, hurling insults
behind them and well, you've seen the wars. :)
But anyway, Jesus cited even Daniel 12,
thereby unsealing Daniel, which shows that
it was about Jesus' time on Earth, not today!
Of course if the last days have been going on for 2000+
years, then it was a totally meaningless term even used
by Jesus, since the definition is so broad to possibly
include every generation that has lived since the first
century. By this small detail, their emphasis on their
being in the Last Days now, is equally meaningless, and
this generation, is equally insignificant. They are
nothing more than bugs on the windshield of time!!! :)
The phrase, "the last days started then, but are still
going on now", is what they use, only after it is proved
to them that the last days were in the first century
and so, they change their doctrine on the fly, rather
than question it!
And you are right! If "all days" are "the last days",
then there are no last days and the term is meaningless!
--
O
/
/
<><[]()X()[]><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>><>
\
\
O
Use the force, idiot!
.
|
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
03 Feb 2008 03:56:17 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cajaq3hr1ts2rac51eihaiknuu0s0mti3f@4ax.com...
...Randy doesn't give a crap.
I simply do not speak to him any more. He always
ignored rebuttals and then when you pointed out
his error, he always tried to turn it around, by twisting
what you said and claiming you were guilty of it,
which only proved that he knew he had nothing
of his own to respond with and so, was admitting
his defeat with every message! That's why he also
always just kept repeating his original message to
our rebuttal of his original message and pretended
it was a new response! <chuckle>
Just like you.
Ike
.
|
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| User: "gatekeeper" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
02 Feb 2008 11:46:34 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 00:20:32 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:22:29 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:25:42 -0500, Pastor Dave
<ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:09:52 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
It is interesting to consider that the Jehovah
Witnesses, 7th Day Adventist, Mormons, and
Darby Dispensationalist, all grew out of the
Great Awakening, led by the Millerites, which
occurred in the early 1830s. Miller initially
I am well familiar with Miller, but thank you.
I expected you were, but then I was writing this for
the edification of Randy, who apparently has yet to
familiarize himself with the notorious and very seedy
history of the Dispensationalist! Others are welcome to
be edified as well! :)
I figured as much. :) But Randy doesn't give a crap.
I simply do not speak to him any more. He always
ignored rebuttals and then when you pointed out
his error, he always tried to turn it around, by twisting
what you said and claiming you were guilty of it,
which only proved that he knew he had nothing
of his own to respond with and so, was admitting
his defeat with every message! That's why he also
always just kept repeating his original message to
our rebuttal of his original message and pretended
it was a new response! <chuckle>
On a personal level, he was a nice guy and I wish him
no harm. But in eschatology, he was a demon!
That is probably going to far, though I agree that he
has proved himself on usenet to be nothing more than a
troll! That you do not try to discuss with him is the
best treatment for a troll, since the forum is about
discussing, and it seems he is not really into that!
The Millerites were specifically interested in
the prophesy of Daniel, and were teaching
that the Lord would come back in 1844.
When that did not occur, most of his followers,
returned to the church of their origin. However
these groups represented other religious zealots
which were not so eaily persuaded that the Lord
in fact had not come back invisibly. So they
formed that group which holds dearly to the
newest current newpaper Prophets report that
the Lord is here invisibly, and soon to be visible.
Yea, I have heard that. :)
The JWs have had the date figured out a number of
times.
I always ask JW's... "If there will only be 144,000,
what will you do, considering that there had to be
at least 144,000 good JW's by now and so, why
do you bother, since only JW's can go to Heaven
and since only 144,000 JW's can?".
This always shuts them up! :)
Yes, this works with all those who insist that the
144,00 is a literal amount. Though it does seem that a
few think there are a few remaining seats, being
reserved just for them! :)
The excuse about the Last Days, takes me back to school
days, and the proverbial excuse, "The Dog ate my
homework,.... termpaper, etc. "
According to Daniel, the interpretation of Daniel was
locked up until the Last Days, such that it could not
be understood. Now the Dispys claim they understand
it, because they are in the Last Days now. So I ask
them when did the Last Days begin. Darby said he
understood them, so they had to have started at least
by the early 1800 according to the Dispys!
Well, what is interesting, is that Daniel tied
"the time of the end" (note he didn't say,
"the end of time") to the time of the Messiah's
appearance. Now when I mention this and
prove this, the Dispy's run, hurling insults
behind them and well, you've seen the wars. :)
But anyway, Jesus cited even Daniel 12,
thereby unsealing Daniel, which shows that
it was about Jesus' time on Earth, not today!
Exactly!!!!!
Of course if the last days have been going on for 2000+
years, then it was a totally meaningless term even used
by Jesus, since the definition is so broad to possibly
include every generation that has lived since the first
century. By this small detail, their emphasis on their
being in the Last Days now, is equally meaningless, and
this generation, is equally insignificant. They are
nothing more than bugs on the windshield of time!!! :)
The phrase, "the last days started then, but are still
going on now", is what they use, only after it is proved
to them that the last days were in the first century
and so, they change their doctrine on the fly, rather
than question it!
And you are right! If "all days" are "the last days",
then there are no last days and the term is meaningless!
And the Last Days, resulted in the Time of Tribulation,
and the Destruction of the Temple, which is what they
look for now when ever they talk about the last days
now. The upcoming destruction of the Temple, implies
there has to be a temple to destroy, so they deduce
that the Temple will be rebuilt, and where better than
on the Temple mound. The recent discovery of Temple
ritual artifacts in the Caves, show that the Jews had
no reservation of using items originally intended for
the Canaanite temples, so I expect they would have no
problem consecrating the Dome of the Rock either. This
would certainly be acceptable to the Dispys who only
care that their schemes come to fruition, and who cares
about the Holiness of God!
Of course they conviently expect to be raptured out
just before the program gets to hot to handle, but
until then, they will preach their Pop-Chistianity to
whomever will buy their newspaper! The Jews will be
happy to have their Temple back. The newspaper
companies will be happy cause they will be selling lots
of newspapers. The newspaper prophets and the Dispys
will be happy because they were proven right! Wrong!
--
The Eastgate is Open, The King is in Residence!
Whosoever will, may come in!
Gatekeeper
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
03 Feb 2008 03:57:18 AM |
|
|
"gatekeeper" <gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:78kaq3tlgom0qm95m5hno8v0bd8tguf7fv@4ax.com...
[snip]
That is probably going to far, though I agree that [Randy]
has proved himself on usenet to be nothing more than a
troll! That you do not try to discuss with him is the
best treatment for a troll, since the forum is about
discussing, and it seems he is not really into that!
Oh, he's "into it." He's just as misinformed as you are.
Ike
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Battle of Gog and Magog: Prophetic Deja Vu |
03 Feb 2008 02:46:59 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:46:34 -0700, gatekeeper
<gatekeeper.nospam.eastgate@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
on the Temple mound. The recent discovery of Temple
ritual artifacts in the Caves, show that the Jews | | | | | | | | | | | | |
