| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
28 Dec 2007 10:50:26 PM |
| Object: |
The Believing Thief |
In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
The Believing Thief
by C.H. Spurgeon
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest
into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."-Luke 23:42, 43.
Some time ago I preached upon the whole story of the dying thief. I do not
propose to do the same to-day, but only to look at it from one particular
point of view. The story of the salvation of the dying thief is a standing
instance of the power of Christ to save, and of his abundant willingness to
receive all that come to him, in whatever plight they may be. I cannot
regard this act of grace as a solitary instance, any more than the salvation
of Zacchaeus, the restoration of Peter, or the call of Saul, the persecutor.
Every conversion is, in a sense, singular: no two are exactly alike, and yet
any one conversion is a type of others. The case of the dying thief is much
more similar to our conversion than it is dissimilar; in point of fact, his
case
may be regarded as typical, rather than as an extraordinary incident. So I
shall use it at this time. May the Holy Spirit speak through it to the
encouragement of those who are ready to despair!
Remember, beloved friends, that our Lord Jesus, at the time he saved this
malefactor, was at his lowest. His glory had been ebbing out in
Gethsemane, and before Caiaphas, and Herod, and Pilate; but it had now
reached the utmost low-water mark. Stripped of his garments, and nailed
to the cross, our Lord was mocked by a ribald crowd, and was dying in
agony: then was he "numbered with the transgressors," and made as the
offscouring of all things. Yet, while in that condition, he achieved this
marvellous deed of grace. Behold the wonder wrought by the Savior when
emptied of all his glory, and hanged up a spectacle of shame upon the brink
of death! How certain is it that he can do great wonders of mercy now,
seeing that he has returned unto his glory, and sitteth upon the throne of
light! "He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by
him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." If a dying Savior
saved the thief, my argument is, that he can do even more now that he
liveth and reigneth. All power is given unto him in heaven and in earth; can
anything at this present time surpass the power of his grace?
It is not only the weakness of our Lord which makes the salvation of the
penitent thief memorable; it is the fact that the dying malefactor saw it
before his very eyes. Can you put yourself into his place, and suppose
yourself to be looking upon one who hangs in agony upon a cross? Could
you readily believe him to be the Lord of glory, who would soon come to
his kingdom? That was no mean faith which, at such a moment, could
believe in Jesus as Lord and King. If the apostle Paul were here, and
wanted to add a New Testament chapter to the eleventh of Hebrews, he
might certainly commence his instances of remarkable faith with this thief,
who believed in a crucified, derided, and dying Christ, and cried to him as
to one whose kingdom would surely come. The thief's faith was the more
remarkable because he was himself in great pain, and bound to die. It is not
easy to exercise confidence when you are tortured with deadly anguish.
Our own rest of mind has at times been greatly hindered by pain of body.
When we are the subjects of acute suffering it is not easy to exhibit that
faith which we fancy we possess at other times. This man, suffering as he
did, and seeing the Savior in so sad a state, nevertheless believed unto
life
eternal. Herein was such faith as is seldom seen.
Recollect, also, that he was surrounded by scoffers. It is easy to swim with
the current, and hard to go against the stream. This man heard the priests,
in their pride, ridicule the Lord, and the great multitude of the common
people, with one consent, joined in the scorning; his comrade caught the
spirit of the hour, and mocked also, and perhaps he did the same for a
while; but through the grace of God he was changed, and believed in the
Lord Jesus in the teeth of all the scorn. His faith was not affected by his
surroundings; but he, dying thief as he was, made sure his confidence. Like
a jutting rock, standing out in the midst of a torrent, he declared the
innocence of the Christ whom others blasphemed. His faith is worthy of
our imitation in its fruits. He had no member that was free except his
tongue, and he used that member wisely to rebuke his brother malefactor,
and defend his Lord. His faith brought forth a brave testimony and a bold
confession. I am not going to praise the thief, or his faith, but to extol
the
glory of that grace divine which gave the thief such faith, and then freely
saved him by its means. I am anxious to show how glorious is the Saviorthat
Savior to the uttermost, who, at such a time, could save such a man,
and give him so great a faith, and so perfectly and speedily prepare him for
eternal bliss. Behold the power of that divine Spirit who could produce
such faith on soil so unlikely, and in a climate so unpropitious.
Let us enter at once into the center of our sermon. First, note the man who
was our Lord's last companion on earth; secondly, note that this same man
was our Lord's first companion at the gate of paradise; and then, thirdly,
let us note the sermon which our Lord preaches to us from this act of
grace. Oh, for a blessing from the Holy Spirit all the sermon through!
I. Carefully NOTE THAT THE CRUCIFIED THIEF WAS OUR LORD'S LAST
COMPANION ON EARTH. What sorry company our Lord selected when he
was here He did not consort with the religious Pharisees or the philosophic
Sadducees, but he was known as "the friend of publicans and sinners."
How I rejoice at this! It gives me assurance that he will not refuse to
associate with me. When the Lord Jesus made a friend of me, he certainly
did not make a choice which brought him credit. Do you think he gained
any honor when he made a friend of you? Has he ever gained anything by
us? No, my brethren; if Jesus had not stooped very low, he would not have
come to me; and if he did not seek the most unworthy, he might not have
come to you. You feel it so, and you are thankful that he came "not to call
the righteous, but sinners to repentance." As the great physician, our Lord
was much with the sick: he went where there was room for him to exercise
his healing art. The whole have no need of a physician: they cannot
appreciate him, nor afford scope for his skill; and therefore he did not
frequent their abodes. Yes, after all, our Lord did make a good choice
when he saved you and me; for in us he has found abundant room for his
mercy and grace. There has been elbow room for his love to work within
the awful emptinesses of our necessities and sins; and therein he has done
great things for us, whereof we are glad.
Lest any here should be despairing, and say, "He will never deign to look
on me," I want you to notice that the last companion of Christ on earth
was a sinner, and no ordinary sinner. He had broken even the laws of man,
for he was a robber. One calls him "a brigand"; and I suppose it is likely
to
have been the case. The brigands of those days mixed murder with their
robberies: he was probably a freebooter in arms against the Roman
government, making this a pretext for plundering as he had opportunity. At
last he was arrested, and was condemned by a Roman tribunal, which, on
the whole, was usually just, and in this case was certainly just; for he
himself confesses the justice of his condemnation. The malefactor who
believed upon the cross was a convict, who had lain in the condemned cell,
and was then undergoing execution for his crimes. A convicted felon was
the person with whom our Lord last consorted upon earth. What a lover of
the souls of guilty men is he! What a stoop he makes to the very lowest of
mankind! To this most unworthy of men the Lord of glory, ere he quitted
life, spoke with matchless grace. He spoke to him such wondrous words as
never can be excelled if you search the Scriptures through: "To-day shalt
thou be with me in paradise." I do not suppose that anywhere in this
Tabernacle there will be found a man who has been convicted before the
law, or who is even chargeable with a crime against common honesty; but
if there should be such a person among my hearers, I would invite him to
find pardon and change of heart though our Lord Jesus Christ. You may
come to him, whoever you may be; for this man did. Here is a specimen of
one who had gone to the extreme of guilt, and who acknowledged that he
had done so; he made no excuse, and sought no cloak for his sin; he was in
the hands of justice, confronted with the death-doom, and yet he believed
in Jesus, and breathed a humble prayer to him, and he was saved upon the
spot. As is the sample, such is the bulk. Jesus saves others of like kind.
Let
me, therefore, put it very plainly here, that none may mistake me. None of
you are excluded from the infinite mercy of Christ, however great your
iniquity: if you believe in Jesus, he will save you.
This man was not only a sinner; he was a sinner newly awakened. I do not
suppose that he had seriously thought of the Lord Jesus before. According
to the other Evangelists, he appears to have joined with his fellow thief in
scoffing at Jesus: if he did not actually himself use opprobrious words, he
was so far consenting thereunto, that the Evangelist did him no injustice
when he said, "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the
same in his teeth." Yet, now, on a sudden, he wakes up to the conviction
that the man who is dying at his side is something more than a man. He
reads the title over his head, and believes it to be true-"This is Jesus the
King of the Jews." Thus believing, he makes his appeal to the Messiah,
whom he had so newly found, and commits himself to his hands. My
hearer, do you see this truth, that the moment a man knows Jesus to be the
Christ of God he may at once put his trust in him and be saved? A certain
preacher, whose gospel was very doubtful, said, "Do you, who have been
living in sin for fifty years, believe that you can in a moment be made
clean
through the blood of Jesus?" I answer, "Yes, we do believe that in one
moment, through the precious blood of Jesus, the blackest soul can be
made white. We do believe that in a single instant the sins of sixty or
seventy years can be absolutely forgiven, and that the old nature, which has
gone on growing worse and worse, can receive its death-wound in a
moment of time, while the life eternal may be implanted in the soul at
once." It was so with this man. He had reached the end of his tether, but
all
of a sudden he woke up to the assured conviction that the Messiah was at
his side, and, believing, he looked to him and lived.
So now, my brothers, if you have never in your life before been the subject
of any religious conviction, if you have lived up till now an utterly
ungodly
life, yet if now you will believe that God's dear Son has come into the
world to save men from sin, and will unfeignedly confess your sin and trust
in him, you shall be immediately saved. Ay, while I speak the word, the
deed of grace may be accomplished by that glorious One who has gone up
into the heaven with omnipotent power to save.
I desire to put this case very plainly: this man, who was the last companion
of Christ upon earth, was a sinner in misery. His sins had found him out: he
was now enduring the reward of his deeds. I constantly meet with persons
in this condition: they have lived a life of wantonness, excess, and
carelessness, and they begin to feel the fire-flakes of the tempest of wrath
falling upon their flesh; they dwell in an earthly hell, a prelude of
eternal
woe. Remorse, like an asp, has stung them, and set their blood on fire: they
cannot rest, they are troubled day and night. "Be sure your sin will find
you
out." It has found them out, and arrested them, and they feel the strong
grip of conviction. This man was in that horrible condition: what is more,
he was in extremis. He could not live long: the crucifixion was sure to be
fatal; in a short time his legs would be broken, to end his wretched
existence. He, poor soul, had but a short time to live-only the space
between noon and sundown; but it was long enough for the Savior, who is
mighty to save. Some are very much afraid that people will put off coming
to Christ, if we state this. I cannot help what wicked men do with truth,
but
I shall state it all the same. If you are now within an hour of death,
believe
in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. If you never reach your
homes again, but drop dead on the road, if you will now believe in the
Lord Jesus, you shall be saved: saved now, on the spot. Looking and
trusting to Jesus, he will give you a new heart and a right spirit, and blot
out your sins. This is the glory of Christ's grace. How I wish I could extol
it in proper language! He was last seen on earth before his death in
company with a convicted felon, to whom he spoke most lovingly. Come,
O ye guilty, and he will receive you graciously!
Once more, this man whom Christ saved at last was a man who could do
no good works. If salvation had been by good works, he could not have
been saved; for he was fastened hand and foot to the tree of doom. It was
all over with him as to any act or deed of righteousness. He could say a
good word or two, but that was all; he could perform no acts; and if his
salvation had depended on an active life of usefulness, certainly he never
could have been saved. He was a sinner also, who could not exhibit a
longenduring
repentance for sin, for he had so short a time to live. He could not
have experienced bitter convictions, lasting over months and years, for his
time was measured by moments, and he was on the borders of the grave.
His end was very near, and yet the Savior could save him, and did save him
so perfectly, that the sun went not down till he was in paradise with
Christ.
This sinner, whom I have painted to you in colors none too black, was one
'who believed in Jesus, and confessed his faith. He did trust the Lord.
Jesus
was a man, and he called him so; but he knew that he was also Lord, and
he called him so, and said, "Lord, remember me." He had such confidence
in Jesus, that, if he would but only think of him, if he would only remember
him when he came into his kingdom, that would be all that he would ask of
him. Alas, my dear hearers! the trouble about some of you is that you
know all about my Lord, and yet you do not trust him. Trust is the saving
act. Years ago you were on the verge of really trusting Jesus, but you are
just as far off from it now as you were then. This man did not hesitate: he
grasped the one hope for himself. He did not keep his persuasion of our
Lord's Messiahship in his mind as a dry, dead belief, but he turned it into
trust and prayer, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy
kingdom." Oh, that in his infinite mercy many of you would trust my Lord
this morning! You shall be saved, I am sure you shall: if you are not saved
when you trust, I must myself also renounce all hope. This is all that we
have done: we looked, and we lived, and we continue to live because we
look to the living Savior, Oh, that this morning, feeling your sin, you
would
look to Jesus, trusting him, and confessing that trust! Owning that he is
Lord to the glory of God the Father, you must and shall be saved.
In consequence of having this faith which saved him, this poor man
breathed the humble but fitting prayer, "Lord, remember me." This does
not seem to ask much; but as he understood it, it meant all that an anxious
heart could desire. As he thought of the kingdom, he had such clear ideas
of the glory of the Savior, that he felt that if the Lord would think of him
his eternal state would be safe. Joseph, in prison, asked the chief butler
to
remember him when he was restored to power; but he forgat him. Our
Joseph never forgets a sinner who cried to him in the low dungeon; in his
kingdom he remembers the moanings and groanings of poor sinners who
are burdened with a sense of sin. Can you not pray this morning, and thus
secure a place in the memory of the Lord Jesus?
Thus I have tried to describe the man; and, after having done my best, I
shall fail of my object unless I make you see that whatever this thief was,
he is a picture of what you are. Especially if you have been a great
offender, and if you have been living long without caring for eternal
things,
you are like that malefactor; and yet you, even you, may do as that thief
did; you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and commit your souls into
his hands, and he will save you as surely as he saved the condemned
brigand. Jesus graciously says, "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise
cast out." This means that if you come and trust him, whoever you may be,
he will for no reason, and on no ground, and under no circumstances, ever
cast you out. Do you catch that thought? Do you feel that it belongs to
you, and that if you come to him, you shall find eternal life? I rejoice if
you
so far perceive the truth.
Few persons have so much intercourse with desponding and despairing
souls as I have. Poor cast down ones write to me continually. I scarce
know why. I have no special gift of consolation, but I gladly lay myself out
to comfort the distressed, and they seem to know it. What joy I have when
I see a despairing one find peace! I have had this joy several times during
the week just ended. How much I desire that any of you who are breaking
your hearts because you cannot find forgiveness would come to my Lord,
and trust him, and enter into rest! Has he not said, "Come unto me, all ye
that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"? Come and try
him, and that rest shall be yours.
II. In the second place, NOTE, THAT THIS MAN WAS OUR LORD'S
COMPANION AT THE GATE OF PARADISE. I am not going into any
speculations as to where our Lord went when he quitted the body which
hung on the cross. It would seem, from some Scriptures, that he descended
into the lower parts of the earth, that he might fill all things. But he
very
rapidly traversed the regions of the dead. Remember that he died, perhaps
an hour or two before the thief, and during that time the eternal glory
flamed through the underworld, and was flashing through the gates of
paradise just when the pardoned thief was entering the eternal world. Who
is this that entereth the pearl-gate at the same moment as the King of
glory? Who is this favored companion of the Redeemer? Is it some
honored martyr? Is it a faithful apostle? Is it a patriarch, like Abraham;
or a
prince, like David? It is none of these. Behold, and be amazed at sovereign
grace. He that goeth in at the gate of paradise, with the King of glory, is
a
thief, who was saved in the article of death. He is saved in no inferior
way,
and received into bliss in no secondary style. Verily, there are last which
shall be first!
Here I would have you notice the condescension of our Lord's choice. The
comrade of the Lord of glory, for whom the cherub turns aside his sword
of fire, is no great one, but a newly-converted malefactor. And why? I
think the Savior took him with him as a specimen of what he meant to do.
He seemed to say to all the heavenly powers, "I bring a sinner with me; he
is a sample of the rest." Have you never heard of him who dreamed that he
stood without the gate of heaven, and while there he heard sweet music
from a band of venerable persons who were on their way to glory? They
entered the celestial portals, and there were great rejoicing and shouts.
Enquiring "What are these?" he was told that they were the goodly
fellowship of the prophets. He sighed, and said, "Alas! I am not one of
those." He waited a while, and another band of shining ones drew nigh,
who also entered heaven with hallelujahs, and when he enquired, "Who are
these, and whence came they?" the answer was, "These are the glorious
company of the apostles." Again he sighed, and said, "I cannot enter with
them." Then came another body of men white-robed, and bearing palms in
their hands, who marched amid great acclamation into the golden city.
These he learned were the noble army of martyrs; and again he wept, and
said, "I cannot enter with these." In the end he heard the voices of much
people, and saw a greater multitude advancing, among whom he perceived
Rahab and Mary Magdalene, David and Peter, Manasseh and Saul of
Tarsus, and he espied especially the thief, who died at the right hand of
Jesus. These all entered in-a strange company. Then he eagerly enquired,
"Who are these?" and they answered, "This is the host of sinners saved by
grace." Then was he exceeding glad, and said, "I can go with these." Yet,
he thought there would be no shouting at the approach of this company,
and that they would enter heaven without song; instead of which, there
seemed to rise a seven-fold hallelujah of praise unto the Lord of love; for
there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over sinners that repent.
I invite any poor soul here that can neither aspire to serve Christ, nor to
suffer for him as yet, nevertheless to come in with other believing sinners,
in the company of Jesus, who now sets before us an open door.
While we are handling this text, note well the blessedness of the place to
which the Lord called this penitent. Jesus said, "To day shalt thou be with
me in paradise." Paradise means a garden, a garden filled with delights. The
garden of Eden is the type of heaven. We know that paradise means
heaven, for the apostle speaks of such a man caught up into paradise, and
anon he calls it the third heaven. Our Savior took this dying thief into the
paradise of infinite delight, and this is where he will take all of us
sinners
who believe in him. If we are trusting him, we shall ultimately be with him
in paradise.
The next word is better still. Note the glory of the society to which this
sinner is introduced: "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." If the
Lord said, "To day shalt thou be with me," we should not need him to add
another word; for where he is, is heaven to us. He added the word
"paradise," because else none could have guessed where he was going.
Think of it, you uncomely soul; you are to dwell with the Altogether-lovely
One for ever. You poor and needy ones, you are to be with him in his
glory, in his bliss, in his perfection. Where he is, and as he is, you shall
be.
The Lord looks into those weeping eyes of yours this morning, and he
says, "Poor sinner, thou shalt one day be with me." I think I hear you say,
"Lord, that is bliss too great for such a sinner as I am"; but he replies-I
have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness will
I draw thee, till thou shalt be with me where I am.
The stress of the text lies in the speediness of all this. "Verily I say
unto
thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." "To day." Thou shalt not
lie in purgatory for ages, nor sleep in limbo for so many years; but thou
shalt be ready for bliss at once, and at once thou shalt enjoy it. The
sinner
was hard by the gates of hell, but almighty mercy lifted him up, and the
Lord said, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." What a change from
the cross to the crown, from the anguish of Calvary to the glory of the
New Jerusalem! In those few hours the beggar was lifted from the dunghill
and set among princes. "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Can
you measure the change from that sinner, loathsome in his iniquity, when
the sun was high at noon, to that same sinner, clothed in pure white, and
accepted in the Beloved, in the paradise of God, when the sun went down?
O glorious Savior, what marvels thou canst work! How rapidly canst thou
work them!
Please notice, also, the majesty of the Lord's grace in this text. The
Savior
said to him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in
paradise." Our Lord gives his own will as the reason for saving this man. "I
say." He says it who claims the right thus to speak. It is he who will have
mercy on whom he will have mercy, and will have compassion on whom he
will have compassion. He speaks royally, "Verily I say unto thee." Are they
not imperial words? The Lord is a King in whose word there is power.
What he says none can gainsay. He that hath the keys of hell and of death
saith, "I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Who
shall prevent the fulfillment of his word?
Notice the certainty of it. He says, "Verily." Our blessed Lord on the cross
returned to his old majestic manner, as he painfully turned his head, and
looked on his convert. He was wont to begin his preaching with," Verily,
verily, I say unto you"; and now that he is dying he uses his favourite
manner, and says, "Verily." Our Lord took no oath; his strongest
asseveration was, "Verily, verily." To give the penitent the plainest
assurance, he says, "Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in
paradise." In this he had an absolutely indisputable assurance that though
he must die, yet he would live and find himself in paradise with his Lord.
I have thus shown you that our Lord passed within the pearly gate in
company with one to whom he had pledged himself. Why should not you
and I pass through that pearl-gate in due time, clothed in his merit, washed
in his blood, resting on his power? One of these days angels will say of
you, and of me, "Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning
upon her beloved?" The shining ones will be amazed to see some of us
coming. If you have lived a life of sin until now, and yet shall repent and
enter heaven, what an amazement there will be in every golden street to
think that you have come there! In the early Christian church Marcus Caius
Victorinus was converted; but he had reached so great an age, and had
been so gross a sinner, that the pastor and church doubted him. He gave,
however, clear proof of having undergone the divine change, and then
there were great acclamations, and many shouts of "Victorinus has become
a Christian!" Oh, that some of you big sinners might be saved! How gladly
would we rejoice over you! Why not? Would it not glorify God? The
salvation of this convicted highwayman has made our Lord illustrious for
mercy even unto this day; would not your case do the same? Would not
saints cry, "Hallelujah! hallelujah!" if they heard that some of you had
been
turned from darkness to marvellous light? Why should it not be? Believe in
Jesus, and it is so.
III. Now I come to my third and most practical point: NOTE THE LORD'S
SERMON TO US FROM ALL THIS.
The devil wants to preach this morning a bit. Yes, Satan asks to come to
the front and preach to you; but he cannot be allowed. Avaunt, thou
deceiver! Yet I should not wonder if he gets at certain of you when the
sermon is over, and whispers, "You see you can be saved at the very last.
Put off repentance and faith; you may be forgiven on your death-bed." Sirs,
you know who it is that would ruin you by this suggestion. Abhor his
deceitful teaching. Do not be ungrateful because God is kind. Do not
provoke the Lord because he is patient. Such conduct would be unworthy
and ungrateful. Do not run an awful risk because one escaped the
tremendous peril. The Lord will accept all who repent; but how do you
know that you will repent? It is true that one thief was saved-but the other
thief was lost. One is saved, and we may not despair; the other is lost, and
we may not presume. Dear friends, I trust you are not made of such
diabolical stuff as to fetch from the mercy of God an argument for
continuing in sin. If you do, I can only say of you, your damnation will be
just; you will have brought it upon yourselves.
Consider now the teaching of our Lord; see the glory, of Christ in
salvation. He is ready to save at the last moment. He was just passing
away; his foot was on the doorstep of the Father's house. Up comes this
poor sinner the last thing at night, at the eleventh hour, and the Savior
smiles and declares that he will not enter except with this belated
wanderer.
At the very gate he declares that this seeking soul shall enter with him.
There was plenty of time for him to have come before: you know how apt
we are to say, "You have waited to the last moment. I am just going off,
and I cannot attend to you now." Our Lord had his dying pangs upon him,
and yet he attends to the perishing criminal, and permits him to pass
through the heavenly portal in his company. Jesus easily saves the sinners
for whom he painfully died. Jesus loves to rescue sinners from going down
into the pit. You will be very happy if you are saved, but you will not be
one half so happy as he will be when he saves you. See how gentle he is!
"His hand no thunder bears,
No terror clothes his brow;
No bolts to drive our guilty souls
To fiercer flames below."
He comes to us full of tenderness, with tears in his eyes, mercy in his
hands, and love in his heart. Believe him to be a great Savior of great
sinners. I have heard of one who had received great mercy who went about
saying, "He is a great forgiver;" and I would have you say the same. You
shall find your transgressions put away, and your sins pardoned once for
all, if you now trust him.
The next doctrine Christ preaches from this wonderful story is faith in its
permitted attachment. This man believed that Jesus was the Christ. The
next thing he did was to appropriate that Christ. He said, "Lord, remember
me." Jesus might have said, "What have I to do with you, and what have
you to do with me? What has a thief to do with the perfect One?" Many of
you, good people, try to get as far away as you can from the erring and
fallen. They might infect your innocence! Society claims that we should not
be familiar with people who have offended against its laws. We must not be
seen associating with them, for it might discredit us. Infamous bosh! Can
anything discredit sinners such as we are by nature and by practice? If we
know ourselves before God we are degraded enough in and of ourselves?
Is there anybody, after all, in the world, who is worse than we are when we
see ourselves in the faithful glass of the Word? As soon as ever a man
believes that Jesus is the Christ, let him hook himself on to him. The
moment you believe Jesus to be the Savior, seize upon him as your Savior.
If I remember rightly, Augustine called this man, "Latro laudabilis et
mirabilis," a thief to be praised and wondered at, who dared, as it were, to
seize the Savior for his own. In this he is to be imitated. Take the Lord to
be yours, and you have him. Jesus is the common property of all sinners
who make bold to take him. Every sinner who has the will to do so may
take the Lord home with him. He came into the world to save the sinful.
Take him by force, as robbers take their prey; for the kingdom of heaven
suffereth the violence of daring faith. Get him, and he will never get
himself
away from you. If you trust him, he must save you.
Next, notice the doctrine of faith in its immediate power.
"The moment a sinner believes,
And trusts in his crucified God,
His pardon at once he receives,
Redemption in full through his blood."
"To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He has no sooner believed
than Christ gives him the seal of his believing in the full assurance that
he
shall be with him for ever in his glory. O dear hearts, if you believe this
morning, you shall be saved this morning! God grant that you, by his rich
grace, may be brought into salvation here, on the spot, and at once!
The next thing is, the nearness of eternal things. Think of that a minute.
Heaven and hell are not places far away. You may be in heaven before the
clock ticks again, it is so near. Could we but rend that veil which parts us
from the unseen! It is all there, and all near. "To day," said the Lord;
within
three or four hours at the longest, "shalt thou be with me in paradise;" so
near is it. A statesman has given us the expression of being "within
measurable distance." We are all within measurable distance of heaven or
hell; if there be any difficulty in measuring the distance, it lies in its
brevity
rather than in its length.
One gentle sigh the fetter breaks,
We scarce can say, 'He's gone,'
Before the ransomed spirit takes
Its mansion near the throne."
Oh, that we, instead of trifling about such things, because they seem so far
away, would solemnly realize them, since they are so very near! This very
day, before the sun goes down, some hearer, now sitting in this place, may
see, in his own spirit, the realities of heaven or hell. It has frequently
happened, in this large congregation, that some one of our audience has
died ere the next Sabbath has come round: it may happen this week. Think
of that, and let eternal things impress you all the more because they lie so
near.
Furthermore, know that if you have believed in Jesus you are prepared for
heaven. It may be that you will have to live on earth twenty, or thirty, or
forty years to glorify Christ; and, if so, be thankful for the privilege;
but if
you do not live another hour, your instantaneous death would not alter the
fact that he that believeth in the Son of God is meet for heaven. Surely, if
anything beyond faith is needed to make us fit to enter paradise, the thief
would have been kept a little longer here; but no, he is, in the morning, in
the state of nature, at noon he enters the state of grace, and by sunset he
is
in the state of glory. The question never is whether a death-bed repentance
is accepted if it be sincere: the question is-Is it sincere? If it be so, if
the
man dies five minutes after his first act of faith, he is as safe as if he
had
served the Lord for fifty years. If your faith is true, if you die one
moment
after you have believed in Christ, you will be admitted into paradise, even
if
you shall have enjoyed no time in which to produce good works and other
evidences of grace. He that reads the heart will read your faith written on
its fleshy tablets, and he will accept you through Jesus Christ, even though
no act of grace has been visible to the eye of man.
I conclude by again saying that this is not an exceptional case. I began
with
that, and I want to finish with it, because so many demi-semi-gospellers are
so terribly afraid of preaching free grace too fully. I read somewhere, and
I
think it is true, that some ministers preach the gospel in the same way as
donkeys eat thistles, namely, very, very cautiously. On the contrary, I will
preach it boldly. I have not the slightest alarm about the matter. If any of
you misuse free-grace teaching, I cannot help it. He that will be damned
can as well ruin himself by perverting the gospel as by anything else. I
cannot help what base hearts may invent; but mine it is to set forth the
gospel in all its fullness of grace, and I will do it. If the thief was an
exceptional case-and our Lord does not usually act in such a way- there
would have been a hint given of so important a fact. A hedge would have
been set about this exception to all rules. Would not the Savior have
whispered quietly to the dying man, "You are the only one I am going to
treat in this way"? Whenever I have to do an exceptional favor to a person,
I have to say, "Do not mention this, or I shall have so many besieging me."
If the Savior had meant this to be a solitary case, he would have faintly
said
to him, "Do not let anybody know; but you shall to day be in the kingdom
with me." No, our Lord spoke openly, and those about him heard what he
said. Moreover, the inspired penman has recorded it. If it had been an
exceptional case, it would not have been written in the Word of God. Men
will not publish their actions in the newspapers if they feel that the
record
might lead others to expect from them what they cannot give. The Savior
had this wonder of grace reported in the daily news of the gospel, because
he means to repeat the marvel every day. The bulk shall be equal to sample,
and therefore he sets the sample before you all. He is able to save to the
uttermost, for he saved the dying thief. The case would not have been put
there to encourage hopes which he cannot fulfill. Whatsoever things were
written aforetime were written for our learning, and not for our
disappointing. I pray you, therefore, if any of you have not yet trusted in
my Lord Jesus, come and trust in him now. Trust him wholly; trust him
only; trust him at once. Then will you sing with me-
"The dying thief rejoiced to see
That fountain in his day,
And there have I, though vile as he,
Washed all my sins away."
.
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| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:16:03 AM |
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|
Carl wrote:
In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet, looking at the bible, I see nothing that this thief had to
believe in the Trinity or Jesus as a triune god in order to be saved.
Why do you suppose that is, if Jesus, as YOU say, insists that people
must believe in the Trinity to be saved, Carl?
You don't, by any chance, happen to have any verses handy to prove
your case, do you? Or is that just more of your opinion that you
can't support as factual?
Oh, and could you please explain to me why you and Carl both crosspost
to the same exact list of newsgroups?
.
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| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:19:30 AM |
|
|
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:24:13 AM |
|
|
On Dec 29, 1:19=A0am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:> In the following =
sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Je=
sus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a=
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter t=
hat
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, =
but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon =
on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be=
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? =A0And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics,
agnostic, mockers of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that
we should not answer to their folly since they are fools. So I
encourage my Christian brethren to not be lured into pointless and
vain arguments and discussions with them for to do so is to lower
yourself to their low level and behave in a foolish manner as well.
Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for them instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "Bill Dukenfield" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:42:45 AM |
|
|
wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:19 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:> In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics,
agnostic, mockers of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that
we should not answer to their folly since they are fools. So I
encourage my Christian brethren to not be lured into pointless and
vain arguments and discussions with them for to do so is to lower
yourself to their low level and behave in a foolish manner as well.
Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for them instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
All of your quotes are from a book that describes a myth born of
ignorance.
If you ever pull your head out of the childish bible story you may
actually find some truth. Your book contains no facts only myths for the
weak minded.
JAM
.
|
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| User: "DEE" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:45:53 AM |
|
|
On Dec 29, 12:42 am, Bill Dukenfield <BillDukenfi...@nospam.net>
wrote:
sai...@nettally.com wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:19 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:> In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics,
agnostic, mockers of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that
we should not answer to their folly since they are fools. So I
encourage my Christian brethren to not be lured into pointless and
vain arguments and discussions with them for to do so is to lower
yourself to their low level and behave in a foolish manner as well.
Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for them instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
All of your quotes are from a book that describes a myth born of
ignorance.
If you ever pull your head out of the childish bible story you may
actually find some truth. Your book contains no facts only myths for the
weak minded.
JAM
I have a fact for you.Its about STS-107 and what I wrote about its
destruction in advance.Look it up.And go back to you atheist group.
.
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| User: "Bill Dukenfield" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 10:37:14 AM |
|
|
DEE wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
All of your quotes are from a book that describes a myth born of
ignorance.
If you ever pull your head out of the childish bible story you may
actually find some truth. Your book contains no facts only myths for the
weak minded.
JAM
I have a fact for you.Its about STS-107 and what I wrote about its
destruction in advance.Look it up.And go back to you atheist group.
So, now you claim to be a prophet?
You really need to get your head out of your *****, I meant to say bible.
There is no truth or knowledge in it.
JAM
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:53:25 AM |
|
|
On Dec 29, 1:42=A0am, Bill Dukenfield <BillDukenfi...@nospam.net> wrote:
sai...@nettally.com wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:19 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:> In the follow=
ing sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved b=
y Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying =
on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matt=
er that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bib=
le, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular ser=
mon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon t=
o be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch y=
our
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? =A0And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn=
't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics,
agnostic, mockers of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that
we should not answer to their folly since they are fools. So I
encourage my Christian brethren to not be lured into pointless and
vain arguments and discussions with them for to do so is to lower
yourself to their low level and behave in a foolish manner as well.
Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for them instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
All of your quotes are from a book that describes a myth born of
ignorance.
If you ever pull your head out of the childish bible story you may
actually find some truth. Your book contains no facts only myths for the
weak minded.
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "Bill Dukenfield" |
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| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 10:38:51 AM |
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wrote:
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
Quoting from a fairy story is not very convincing.
Rom 1:22 could apply to you.
JAM
.
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| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 06:54:39 AM |
|
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On Dec 29, 10:53 am, wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:42 am, Bill Dukenfield <BillDukenfi...@nospam.net> wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:19 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" < > wrote:> In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a fool. (NIV)
Prov 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding
delights in wisdom. (NIV)
Prov 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an
insult. (NIV)
Prov 12:22
The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
(NIV)
Prov 13:16
Every prudent man acts out of knowledge, but a fool exposes his folly.
(NIV)
Prov 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the
folly of fools is deception. (NIV)
Prov 14:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless. (NIV)
Prov 14:24
The wealth of the wise is their crown, but the folly of fools yields
folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:2
The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool
gushes folly. (NIV)
Prov 15:7
The lips of the wise spread knowledge; not so the hearts of fools.
(NIV)
Prov 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his
own opinions. (NIV)
Prov 23:9
Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.
(NIV)
Prov 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him
yourself. (NIV)
Prov 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly. (NIV)
Prov 27:3
Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier
than both. (NIV)
Prov 27:22
Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a
pestle, you will not remove his folly from him. (NIV)
Eccl 7:5
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of
fools. (NIV)
Eccl 7:6
Like the crackling of thorns under the pot, so is the laughter of
fools. This too is meaningless. (NIV)
Eccl 7:9
Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the
lap of fools. (NIV)
Rom 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... (NIV)
Many more verses in scripture show clearly that God does not think
highly of those whom He considers fools such as atheists, heretics,
agnostic, mockers of God and the like. And He also makes it clear that
we should not answer to their folly since they are fools. So I
encourage my Christian brethren to not be lured into pointless and
vain arguments and discussions with them for to do so is to lower
yourself to their low level and behave in a foolish manner as well.
Leave them be and turn to scripture and prayers for them instead.
May God bless,
Carl
my website --http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog --http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
All of your quotes are from a book that describes a myth born of
ignorance.
If you ever pull your head out of the childish bible story you may
actually find some truth. Your book contains no facts only myths for the
weak minded.
CARL
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
JERRY
Then you can count on going straight to hell, Carl, for lying about
needing to believe in the Trinity to be saved when the Bible says no
such thing.
CARL
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
JERRY
Yep, we obviously don't have a clue, do we, Carl? I mean, it's
obvious we're not smart like you and claim that you have to believe
in
the Trinity to be saved, despite the fact that there isn't a single
verse in the bible that supports that claim.
And actually, you don't have to prove or disprove the existence of
God. The burden of proof of God's existence is on the theist anyway,
since they are claiming the supernatural.
What CAN be proven is the factual accuracy of the bible. If the
bible
fails to be historically accurate, it's very likely the bible isn't
true, correct? At least, on history it's not true if you can prove
it's not historically accurate.
And if the bible claims prophecies that obviously could be proven to
have not happened, then the bible would fail on prophecy, correct? I
mean, that's another obvious given.
Finally, if you can show that the different books of the bible
contradict each other when discussing the same event, that would be
pretty accurate that the bible is contradictory, correct?
Now, if the bible fails to be historically accurate, fails on
prophecy
and contradicts itself, that would also be a good indicator that
either the God of the bible didn't exist, or that he lacks the power
to protect his word, or that he doesn't really give a rat's ***** about
mankind at all, would that be a correct conclusion, Carl?
We already know from 1 Samuel 15 that the bible contradicts itself in
the same chapter, where we both see that God "repents" making Saul
king and later in the same chapter says that God never repents.
We also know from 1 Samuel 15 that God isn't omniscient, since he
repents making Saul king, and if he were really omniscient to the
level claimed, that he sees all, past, present and future and that he
knows the falling of the sparrow, he would have already known when he
made Saul king that Saul would disobey him later, therefore why
repent
when he already knew it would happen when he appointed Saul?
We know from the failure of the destruction of the island city of
Tyre
that the prophecy about the destruction of Tyre failed because the
description of the coming devastation doesn't match up to what
happened (Like, Nebs failed to take the city at all, and three
chapters later even Ezekiel admits that Nebs failed and the prophecy
didn't happen)
And, we know from the four gospel accounts of the Resurrection
Morning
that the writers couldn't even get their stories straight a little
bit
(who first saw the risen Jesus? Mary in three of the accounts and
Not
Mary in the fourth - do your own research Carl. I have.).
So, those facts about the bible, from the text, indicates that the
bible isn't true. Therefore, either the god of the bible doesn't
exist, or he doesn't have the power to protect his word (or,
considering Tyre, to make his prophecies come true) or the book is
just mankind dithering about gods or godlike beings that don't really
care about mankind at all, if they even existed. Of course, they
*could* have been aliens from other worlds. That's just as likely as
the claim that they were gods, right Carl? ;-)
And, all of this is available to any person who bothers to read the
bible instead of reading the writings of other believers and
accepting
their stories hook, line and sinker, then copying and pasting them
into newsgroups to share the ignorance, right Carl?
So, the bible says that those who say "there is no god" are fools,
but
that's the same bible that can be *proven* NOT to be the word of any
God, Carl. Therefore, since its just the rantings of incompetent,
superstitious shepherds from 2000 years ago, who cares what they say,
right Carl? ;-)
CARL
All of those so-called contradictions have long since been explained.
Mostly it's due to lack of scriptural understanding or willful ignorance.
JERRY
On who's part? The apologetics I have read indicate that it's the
theist who is making up simplistic explanations that don't fit the
situation (Like McDowall's claims about Tyre, for example). I can
easily shred the explanations of nearly all the apologists I have read
(including the CARM site that Bible John was so enamored with and JP
Holding's (AKA Robert Turkel, who is not a scholar but a prison
librarian and who fancies himself the Rush Limbaugh of the Apologetic
set).
In fact, with very little research on the web you can see where
Farrell Till destroys Turkel in a debate on Yahweh's Failed Land
Promise.
CARL
I suggest Christians read the following books which have
answered all of those false contradictions and more:
Hard Sayings of the Bible by Walter C. Kaiser (Editor), Peter H.
Davids (Contributor), F. F. Bruce (Contributor)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason Archer
JERRY
I don't really have access to books here in Afghanistan, but I've read
some of Gleason Archer's work several years ago and was less than
impressed with him.
Those two are excellent.
Others worth reading and studying:
Difficulties in the Bible by R. A. Torrey
1001 Bible Questions Answered by William L. Pettingill, R. A. Torrey
The Complete Book of Bible Answers by Ron Rhodes
When Critics Ask by Norman Geisler
Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson
Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible by John W. Haley
JERRY
I saw the video clips of Farrell Till trashing Geisler and I have to
say, he's less than impressive as well.
Also some websites that answer many of them and addresses why critics
and skeptics keep bringing the same old tired ones up again even
though they've been answered:
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm
JERRY
This one only goes to Deuteronomy. Not helpful in the 1 Samuel 15
contradiction. And I have to say, your use of the CARM site, which I
analyzed for Bible John, really doesn't help you much. The man is
intellectually dishonest with his writings and easily refuted. Here
is a quick example of what he writes regarding the contradictory
Creation accounts in Genesis 1 & 2:
" * Genesis 1
- Day one - heavens and earth are created. "Let there be
light." Day and Night.
- Day two - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
- Day three - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is
made.
- Day four - Sun, moon, stars are made.
- Day five - Sea life and birds are made.
- Day six - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and
female) are made.
* Genesis 2
States heaven and earth were created. no plant yet on earth, no
rain yet, no man. but, a mist rose watering the surface of the
ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life. Then God made Eve.
There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is
a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day.
Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth
day, the day that Adam and Eve were made. The recap is stated in Gen.
2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were
created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then,
Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in
verses 7 thru 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
JERRY
What Glenn didn't notice or was intellectually dishonest enough to
intentionally leave out, is that the contradiction is on the *order*
of
creation. In Genesis 1, we see that the whales and all the creatures
of the seas were created on the 5th day, as well as all of the fowl of
the air. Man was created later, on the sixth day.
In Genesis 2, Man was created and THEN all the beasts of the field and
the fowl of the air. Problem was, we saw in the first chapter that
all the fowl of the air were already created BEFORE man was created.
In fact, Glenn's statement: "Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
If they didn't need to be mentioned until after After was created, why
were they mentioned first in the first chapter? Glenn's statement is
actually supportive of the theory that chapter 1 and chapter 2 were
written by two different authors and put together after the fact,
though I'm sure he didn't intend it that way.
CARL
http://www.carm.org/diff/Bible_contradictions.htm
This one doesn't address anything in particular but has this
interesting statement:
"The Originals are Inspired, not the copies."
How does he know? There ARE no originals. Only copies of copies of
copies and the copies show us that the bible has changed over the
years. We can also tell by studying the bible, Carl, that the bible
contains contradictions (showing it's neither reflective of God's
perfection, nor is it protected by God), that it's historically
inaccurate and that it contains failed prophecies.
CARL
http://www.tektonics.org/
JERRY
Turkel, as I mentioned earlier, is a joke. He fancies himself like
Limbaugh and spends his time in a debate attacking and making fun of
his opponent and not addressing the points made. Instead he will
throw out a statement that he can't support and go on with the
attacks. It's the reason he does so little debating, as a
knowledgeable opponent shows that he's unable to address the issues
under debate. He prefers a closed studio, much like his hero, and
wants to screen calls. He "debates" someone by taking their published
work, making fun of it and not giving a chance to the author to rebut
what Turkel has stated. Only the non-discerning reader takes him
seriously. (watching Till kick his ***** around the internet, and
Turkel's growing sputters of outrage were priceless.)
CARL
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
Doesn't address contradictions/failed prophecies/historical
inaccuracies of the bible except in a very general "the bible is
always right" manner.
In fact, there are a number of better apologetics sites out there.
Heck, even Turkel's very poor attempts are better than christian-
thinktank.
.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 06:52:58 AM |
|
|
On Dec 29, 10:24 am, wrote:
On Dec 29, 1:19 am, rogue <rogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:50 am, "Carl" < > wrote:> In the following sermon, Charles Spurgeon tells of the dying thief on a
cross next to Jesus. That thief, a person of low regard, was saved by Jesus
Christ. Spurgeon shows that since Jesus saves a lowly convict dying on a
cross next to Him, how can we feel we are unsavable or for that matter that
anyone is unsavable. There are many stories of conversion in the Bible, but
Charles Spurgeon decided to center his focus for this particular sermon on
the dying thief and his conversion. I personally found this sermon to be
moving and encouraging at the same time. May the Holy Spirit touch your
heart as you read it.
JERRY
And yet we see that Jesus doesn't insist or even ask the thief if he
believes in the Trinity.
Why is that, Carl?
Perhaps Jesus didn't think such a thing was important for someone to
be saved? And if so, how can you continue to claim that someone isn't
saved unless they believe in your Dentine Deity?
You don't perhaps, have any textual support for your claim, do you?
CARL
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
JERRY
Then you can count on going straight to hell, Carl, for lying about
needing to believe in the Trinity to be saved when the Bible says no
such thing.
CARL
Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
JERRY
Yep, we obviously don't have a clue, do we, Carl? I mean, it's
obvious we're not smart like you and claim that you have to believe
in
the Trinity to be saved, despite the fact that there isn't a single
verse in the bible that supports that claim.
And actually, you don't have to prove or disprove the existence of
God. The burden of proof of God's existence is on the theist anyway,
since they are claiming the supernatural.
What CAN be proven is the factual accuracy of the bible. If the
bible
fails to be historically accurate, it's very likely the bible isn't
true, correct? At least, on history it's not true if you can prove
it's not historically accurate.
And if the bible claims prophecies that obviously could be proven to
have not happened, then the bible would fail on prophecy, correct? I
mean, that's another obvious given.
Finally, if you can show that the different books of the bible
contradict each other when discussing the same event, that would be
pretty accurate that the bible is contradictory, correct?
Now, if the bible fails to be historically accurate, fails on
prophecy
and contradicts itself, that would also be a good indicator that
either the God of the bible didn't exist, or that he lacks the power
to protect his word, or that he doesn't really give a rat's ***** about
mankind at all, would that be a correct conclusion, Carl?
We already know from 1 Samuel 15 that the bible contradicts itself in
the same chapter, where we both see that God "repents" making Saul
king and later in the same chapter says that God never repents.
We also know from 1 Samuel 15 that God isn't omniscient, since he
repents making Saul king, and if he were really omniscient to the
level claimed, that he sees all, past, present and future and that he
knows the falling of the sparrow, he would have already known when he
made Saul king that Saul would disobey him later, therefore why
repent
when he already knew it would happen when he appointed Saul?
We know from the failure of the destruction of the island city of
Tyre
that the prophecy about the destruction of Tyre failed because the
description of the coming devastation doesn't match up to what
happened (Like, Nebs failed to take the city at all, and three
chapters later even Ezekiel admits that Nebs failed and the prophecy
didn't happen)
And, we know from the four gospel accounts of the Resurrection
Morning
that the writers couldn't even get their stories straight a little
bit
(who first saw the risen Jesus? Mary in three of the accounts and
Not
Mary in the fourth - do your own research Carl. I have.).
So, those facts about the bible, from the text, indicates that the
bible isn't true. Therefore, either the god of the bible doesn't
exist, or he doesn't have the power to protect his word (or,
considering Tyre, to make his prophecies come true) or the book is
just mankind dithering about gods or godlike beings that don't really
care about mankind at all, if they even existed. Of course, they
*could* have been aliens from other worlds. That's just as likely as
the claim that they were gods, right Carl? ;-)
And, all of this is available to any person who bothers to read the
bible instead of reading the writings of other believers and
accepting
their stories hook, line and sinker, then copying and pasting them
into newsgroups to share the ignorance, right Carl?
So, the bible says that those who say "there is no god" are fools,
but
that's the same bible that can be *proven* NOT to be the word of any
God, Carl. Therefore, since its just the rantings of incompetent,
superstitious shepherds from 2000 years ago, who cares what they say,
right Carl? ;-)
CARL
All of those so-called contradictions have long since been explained.
Mostly it's due to lack of scriptural understanding or willful ignorance.
JERRY
On who's part? The apologetics I have read indicate that it's the
theist who is making up simplistic explanations that don't fit the
situation (Like McDowall's claims about Tyre, for example). I can
easily shred the explanations of nearly all the apologists I have read
(including the CARM site that Bible John was so enamored with and JP
Holding's (AKA Robert Turkel, who is not a scholar but a prison
librarian and who fancies himself the Rush Limbaugh of the Apologetic
set).
In fact, with very little research on the web you can see where
Farrell Till destroys Turkel in a debate on Yahweh's Failed Land
Promise.
CARL
I suggest Christians read the following books which have
answered all of those false contradictions and more:
Hard Sayings of the Bible by Walter C. Kaiser (Editor), Peter H.
Davids (Contributor), F. F. Bruce (Contributor)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason Archer
JERRY
I don't really have access to books here in Afghanistan, but I've read
some of Gleason Archer's work several years ago and was less than
impressed with him.
Those two are excellent.
Others worth reading and studying:
Difficulties in the Bible by R. A. Torrey
1001 Bible Questions Answered by William L. Pettingill, R. A. Torrey
The Complete Book of Bible Answers by Ron Rhodes
When Critics Ask by Norman Geisler
Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson
Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible by John W. Haley
JERRY
I saw the video clips of Farrell Till trashing Geisler and I have to
say, he's less than impressive as well.
Also some websites that answer many of them and addresses why critics
and skeptics keep bringing the same old tired ones up again even
though they've been answered:
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm
JERRY
This one only goes to Deuteronomy. Not helpful in the 1 Samuel 15
contradiction. And I have to say, your use of the CARM site, which I
analyzed for Bible John, really doesn't help you much. The man is
intellectually dishonest with his writings and easily refuted. Here
is a quick example of what he writes regarding the contradictory
Creation accounts in Genesis 1 & 2:
" * Genesis 1
- Day one - heavens and earth are created. "Let there be
light." Day and Night.
- Day two - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
- Day three - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is
made.
- Day four - Sun, moon, stars are made.
- Day five - Sea life and birds are made.
- Day six - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and
female) are made.
* Genesis 2
States heaven and earth were created. no plant yet on earth, no
rain yet, no man. but, a mist rose watering the surface of the
ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life. Then God made Eve.
There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is
a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day.
Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth
day, the day that Adam and Eve were made. The recap is stated in Gen.
2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were
created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then,
Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in
verses 7 thru 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
JERRY
What Glenn didn't notice or was intellectually dishonest enough to
intentionally leave out, is that the contradiction is on the *order*
of
creation. In Genesis 1, we see that the whales and all the creatures
of the seas were created on the 5th day, as well as all of the fowl of
the air. Man was created later, on the sixth day.
In Genesis 2, Man was created and THEN all the beasts of the field and
the fowl of the air. Problem was, we saw in the first chapter that
all the fowl of the air were already created BEFORE man was created.
In fact, Glenn's statement: "Proof that it is not a creative account
is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after
the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was
designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam
was created."
If they didn't need to be mentioned until after After was created, why
were they mentioned first in the first chapter? Glenn's statement is
actually supportive of the theory that chapter 1 and chapter 2 were
written by two different authors and put together after the fact,
though I'm sure he didn't intend it that way.
CARL
http://www.carm.org/diff/Bible_contradictions.htm
This one doesn't address anything in particular but has this
interesting statement:
"The Originals are Inspired, not the copies."
How does he know? There ARE no originals. Only copies of copies of
copies and the copies show us that the bible has changed over the
years. We can also tell by studying the bible, Carl, that the bible
contains contradictions (showing it's neither reflective of God's
perfection, nor is it protected by God), that it's historically
inaccurate and that it contains failed prophecies.
CARL
http://www.tektonics.org/
JERRY
Turkel, as I mentioned earlier, is a joke. He fancies himself like
Limbaugh and spends his time in a debate attacking and making fun of
his opponent and not addressing the points made. Instead he will
throw out a statement that he can't support and go on with the
attacks. It's the reason he does so little debating, as a
knowledgeable opponent shows that he's unable to address the issues
under debate. He prefers a closed studio, much like his hero, and
wants to screen calls. He "debates" someone by taking their published
work, making fun of it and not giving a chance to the author to rebut
what Turkel has stated. Only the non-discerning reader takes him
seriously. (watching Till kick his ***** around the internet, and
Turkel's growing sputters of outrage were priceless.)
CARL
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
Doesn't address contradictions/failed prophecies/historical
inaccuracies of the bible except in a very general "the bible is
always right" manner.
In fact, there are a number of better apologetics sites out there.
Heck, even Turkel's very poor attempts are better than christian-
thinktank.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Believing Thief |
29 Dec 2007 12:23:30 AM |
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Ps 14:1; 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ." (NIV)
Ps 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and
their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. (NIV)
[Atheists, whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in
the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like
brute-beasts that have no understanding; for man is distinguished from
the brutes, not so much by the powers of reason as by a capacity for
religion. The workers of iniquity, whatever they pretend to, have no
knowledge; those may truly be said to know nothing that do not know
God, v. 4. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New
Modern Edition)]
Prov 6:16-17
There are six things the Lord hates...a lying tongue... (NIV)
Prov 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander
is a | |
