On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:47:32 +1200, Your Name Here=Harvey
<you@somewhere.not.aus> Coughed, cleared the throat, stepped onto the
soap box and shouted loudly:

In article <rum4k0lgjmk42hkvpjmlvhmt1k1re9n9g2@4ax.com>,

says...

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:43:58 +1200, Your Name Here=Harvey
<you@somewhere.not.aus> Coughed, cleared the throat, stepped onto the
soap box and shouted loudly:

In article <8k83k0t8dm5abarp8k883sijuulu4fqoae@4ax.com>,

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:21:40 +1200, Your Name Here=Harvey
<you@somewhere.not.aus> Coughed, cleared the throat, stepped onto the
soap box and shouted loudly:

In article <hg82k0t3fhcitvi0hugqldsmr04civ2hfg@4ax.com>,

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:05:05 +1200, Your Name Here=Harvey
<you@somewhere.not.aus> Coughed, cleared the throat, stepped onto the
soap box and shouted loudly:

In article <4140ff20$0$84807$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
flyingpussy@antigravity.com says...

Your Name Here=Harvey <you@somewhere.not.aus> wrote:

And there is the real story about Jesus returning to Kashmir, and
dying there, and is in a tomb there, complete with foot imprints

show he has been crucified.

Harvey

Nope - sorry, you're wrong - Jesus' tomb is in Japan.

http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm

Thanks for the update - I first read about this story about 30 years
ago. I read what I could about it, then.

The Word of God will still be around long after your theory has passed
into oblivion.

You should check out the 'Did Jesus Die?' Kashmir tomb.
It is in a vault and sealed, with another tomb above it.

He's not in it. He rose from death.

If you search for kashmir jesus tomb die via Google, whatever...
you will find information about this particular story of Jesus.

It's interesting how you seem so eager to accept this 'story' yet you
seem so willing to reject the Word of God.

I would like to know more about the Essenes - and while
Delores Cannon's book 'Jesus and the Essenes' is very interesting,
I'd like to see something colloborating some of the new information
from this book.

Are you interested in the truth or anything but?
God will lead you into the truth if you have an open and honest
seeking heart.

Harvey

HooOoorooOoo

Just because people say something is so, doesn't make it so.

I fully agree.

What truth is, relates to the real world of events.

There are things in the world that are very real but not visible or
easily discerned by physical means. They are even more real than the
physical.

The bible and christianity doesn't.

Yes they do mate, very much so.
Love one another. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Ever heard these? Don't you think that they relate to the real world
and world events?

You swallowed the christian religion - hook, line and sinker without
thinking or feeling about it.

lol. You don't have any idea what I may or may not have swallowed.
Nice guess though, but you are very wrong.

Please enlighten me then --- what are the christian fundamentals
you believe in, that are true? What are the simple christian beliefs
you hold to be true?

Do you really want to know or are you just looking for something to
seize on.

Love one another - do unto others as you would have them do unto you --
are not christian beliefs as such, but are fundamental to many other
religions and beliefs - religious and non-religious alike.
Much like good manners is.

Maybe. It still does not remove them from the high priority that they
have.

I am asking about the life after death scenario that christians believe
in...?

I will take you on face value and assume that you are sincere.
This is a basic and brief outline.
God created Adam and Eve. Yes two literal people from who all others
came from.
They sinned and sin entered into them causing them to die in their
spirits immediatly. Their physical death followed later. The dominion
of the world that had been given to them passed to Satan.
Sin passed from Adam and Eve to all of their descendants, including
you and me.

God restored all of this through Jesus Christ. (Jesus was God came to
earth as a human). He lived in a human body subject to sin. He had a
spirit from God and lived by His spirit and did not sin. He paid the
price of death for each one of us so that we could by faith
appropriate His sinlessness and be reconciled to God.

Death could not hold Him down. He was resurrected and went to be with
God. He is coming back to put an end to sin, Satan and all evil. The
earth will be restored.... We will all give an account of our lives
and be judged by Him. There will be no secrets hidden.

I have an open and honest heart that seeks the whole truth and nothing
but the truth - what you prefer is the christian truth, which isn't the
same thing.

Like you said earlier: Just because you say it does not make it so.
lol
Truth is truth. There is no half truth compared to whole truth. Truth
is truth. You say that is what you are interested in... then make up
things as though you know me and my inner motives. You then declare
that you have an open and honest heart. (grin)
What you have in mind when you say 'Christian truth' and what I have
in mind about the same term may be vastly different things. Anyway,
you don't know what I prefer. Do you?

Sure the story about Jesus tomb in Japan is hard to believe, same
too for the different one in Kashmir - but at least there's physical
evidence for these.

Are they both right then? (bigger grin)

I don't know which of these are right? If at all. It seems odd that
these stories exist at all, as do many others - like Mary being the
closest apostle to Jesus, and even marrying him, and then raising
children.
That Mary journeyed to France and settled there?
Are these 3 different Jesus's? All with similar qualities...

Perhaps they are all just 'red herrings'.

The truth will be stranger than fiction - and the bible story about
Jesus and his resurrection in it, is harder for me to believe.

You seem to be admitting that you don't know the truth. What are you
arguing about then? No offence intended.

It is more than a 'bible story'. He changed me because He lives. He is
not in any tomb. You can know for certain this truth, if you sincerely
desire it. That is the whole point of my post. Do you really want to
know? Seek Him, He is real, He is risen.

The human imagination is a very strong tool.
So can belief be - but it can also be misguided.

I agree and I don't have anything against either when used properly.

From what I know about christianity, the bible, etc --- it still does
not all add up, nor can I see events in history (and present day)
which support what you say, and what christians have said.

I don't say that I understand it all either. Far from it.
However, I do think that it adds up very well. In lots of different
areas. Many (from reading the Bible) said that Israel would become a
nation again before Jesus would return. This was in a time when they
were scattered all over the world and had no land. 1948 it happened.
That is just one tiny aspect of history and current events.

PS: I don't want to get into a discussion about the conflict between
the Jews and the Palestinians here.

I live in the real world - what you say about truth, has to correlate
back to this real world.

I do too. You have to understand though that spiritual things are
spiritually discerned. You can't taste something with your sense of
hearing. Some things will correlate with physical and some with
spiritual.

And above all, it just does not add up, nor make sense.

I think that it does both.

Nor does what you say and claim, feel right.
Even if I be in an impartial and neutral mood - which I can be in.

The most basic thing that I claim is that God is Real and that we can
know Him. Now, in this life.

Show me the evidence - whether it be in your life and experiences,
or any other.

To simply say - I've found him, open your heart and you can find him

doesn't work.
How come you're in the minority - and how come christianity hasn't worked
it's miracle in the world today?

Whether I am in a minority or not, I can't really say. To me it does
not matter. I would not care if I were the only one that believed in
God. I would still believe. I know what has happened to me.

As far as giving you evidence. I don't know that I could give you
evidence that you would say is satisfactory. I do not even want you to
believe me by my words alone. I would much rather that you proved it
for yourself. I say that you can know God. If you are sincere and
honest. He has worked a miracle in me. He has also done so for many
others.

I agree with you that my saying to you 'open your heart and you can
find Him too' is not enough. I suppose it comes down to what is meant
by that term. Because if someone truly does it with everything that
they have, it will work. But unless you are prepared to go 'all the
way' once you know, you are better off staying ignorant and enjoying
it while you can.

This so called pillar of truth, isn't real truth at all, nor do
christian beliefs make sense in the greater realm of things.
It simply doesn't add up, unless you believe in the bible - which
has more people unconvinced of it, than convinced.

Except that one can believe in God through personal experience with
Him. Have you overlooked something in your searching? There are many
things that don't appear to make sense but are nonetheless real. When
a person gets an understanding of what the Bible is about, it does
make sense. So much sense that I for one had to admit that I was so
wrong on many things that I thought I knew about it and God.
If there were no Bible, you would not even be interested in a tomb for
Jesus wherever it was. Now that is the truth.

If Christianity and those religions which use the bible were more
supportive of each other, offering a consistant story and belief,
maybe I would be more inclined to believe in it?

Maybe, maybe not. A parent is not judged by his childs actions. The
reality of God is not determined by some who may not be true to their
Father.

They are divided amongst themselves, and christianity is divided
unto itself even more. Arguing over what?

Because of many different reasons. Most of the differences between
genuine Christians are really very minor. Would you expect them all to
be perfect clones of one another? I can not speak for them. I can only
speak for myself.

Some nonsensible idea about heaven and how you will be saved?
I think not - and it doesn't feel right too.

So you place a heavy emphasis on feelings?
God is real and I have found Him to be faithful to His Word (Bible).
You too can know Him if you are willing to seek Him with an honest and
open heart. Do you have what it takes? Do you want to know the Truth?
Seek Him. Not from me or anyone else. Seek Him direct. Then you will
know for yourself.

All the best Harvey,
HooOoorooOoo

If the bible was true and accurate as you have others think it is,
I think you would have your case - it is however a seriously flawed work.
You can read the bible any way you like. The book of Ezekiel is all about
a UFO sighting, described in the language of it's day - that's why it
seems so undecipherable.
Do concepts and ideas change down the centuries? Of course they do.
Basic ideas do remain the same - and problems - such as living with
others who have different ideas and beliefs.

Many people have interpreted things in different ways. Eric Von
Daniken proposed that theory once. It is just that, his theory.
Anyway, it changes nothing about the fundamental truth.

I don't believe his theory. I also don't think that it is
undecipherable. People often seize on 'obscure' bits of the Bible to
bolster their own thin arguments and to sell a few books. They don't
hoodwink me. How about you?

How would you read the bible? As of the time in which the KJV was
written/translated? How do you know they knew the difference between
resurrection and resuscitation?
There's a hundred million questions that need to be answered - and if they
can be answered satisfactorily - christianity would be more believable.

They were people like me and you. They were not stupid or mad.
If He was not resurrected they would not have gone into the world and
gave their lives preaching that good news. He remained around for a
while after He was raised and talked to them. Told them things.

You can't simply ignore common sense and simple logic and reasoning.
The truth will pass all such tests, but lies, misconceptions and
inaccuracies do not.

The Bible has stood the test of time. Thousands of years. Lives
changed. Jesus called it the Word of God.

I would enjoy a straight forward discussion, in which you can enlighten
me as to what the christian view is?

I would too Harvey. But be aware, many different bits of it are
subject to various interpretations. Does it really matter? No. The
fundamentals remain the same. That is what makes it Christian rather
than something else.

Harvey

HooOoorooOoo

I actually do know a lot of answers to the most important questions -
and have had the same view for over 30 years - and it all fits together.

I say pretty much the same thing.

Rather than be concerned with the bible, god, jesus question(s) first,
I think the best method is to answer the life after death question, in
detail and work on from there.
The other questions will be answered in turn.

My basic foundation is that ---
We are all the same, no matter what our belief system is, and that
whatever belief system you believe in, still does not change what happens
when you die. How could it?

I am not talking about changing when we die. It is more about changing
in this life.

You have to look at what 'reality' is, what this reality is all about.
It really isn't about 'truth'.


The christian view doesn't fit in with the rest of the world.
It's out there all by itself - you have to ignore data from the
rest of the world, then you may be happy with your christian view, much
like a camel's head stuck in the sand.

It may not be accepted by the rest of the world but it certainly is
real. We do not ignore data from the rest of the world at all. We are
not afraid of facts, science or anything else that is brought up. Many
people have been attacking our beliefs for many centuries and it still
remains. Not shaken one bit. We do not hide from things as you seem to
think.

Having differing perspectives, actually sheds light on what you wish to
examine. And it must stand up to all kinds of scutiny.

I agree with you. My belief has been scrutinised by myself as I was
believing in God. I did not want to be conned.

I was open to whatever christianity can shed light upon, but I just find
it's not light at all, but darkness you'll have to accept.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of
the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall
have the light of life.

I was hoping you can shed some light - but you don't say anything
convincing enough for me to say - Oh, now that is really interesting,
let me think... or feel... .... ....

I don't want to tickle your ears or slake a thirst for the interesting
and what is appealing.
I want you to seek God yourself. To find out for yourself.
It takes guts, lots of it. And a sincere and honest heart.
Are you prepared to find out the truth? Do you have what it takes?
Are you ready for what you might learn? Are you ready to live the way
God wants you to? If you are not ready you are better off not knowing.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come
after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Don't make a hasty or half hearted decision. Think aboutthat verse
mate. It is something that is free, that you can't earn and it can't
be bought. But it will cost you everything you have.

It is not religion. It is a relationship with the Creator.

All I am saying is that you can know. In this life. Not from me or
some religion but from God.

Harvey

HooOoorooOoo

This is a basic and brief outline.
God created Adam and Eve. Yes two literal people from who all others
came from.
They sinned and sin entered into them causing them to die in their
spirits immediatly. Their physical death followed later. The dominion
of the world that had been given to them passed to Satan.
Sin passed from Adam and Eve to all of their descendants, including
you and me.

God restored all of this through Jesus Christ. (Jesus was God came to
earth as a human). He lived in a human body subject to sin. He had a
spirit from God and lived by His spirit and did not sin. He paid the
price of death for each one of us so that we could by faith
appropriate His sinlessness and be reconciled to God.

Death could not hold Him down. He was resurrected and went to be with
God. He is coming back to put an end to sin, Satan and all evil. The
earth will be restored.... We will all give an account of our lives
and be judged by Him. There will be no secrets hidden.