| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Pastor Dave" |
| Date: |
20 May 2005 09:36:27 AM |
| Object: |
THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
Hi,
Most people today look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24
& Luke 21 & Revelation as being 100% literal. The
reality is, that ever since the time of Moses when
things did happen literally, that after that,
throughout the writings of the Old Testament, the OT
prophets wrote using those events and referred to them
symbolically.
Let us remember that the first Christians didn't have a
New Testament. All they had was the Old Testament
Scriptures and it was in separate scrolls and most
people did not own a copy. It was a very expensive job
to hire a scribe to make a certified copy by hand.
They didn't have PC's, with an Intel Pentium and
an HP laserjet printer. :)
We also need to understand that the first Christians
were Jews. Thus, these people went to synagogue every
week and learned the Scriptures and memorized them.
And they also had those who memorized entire books and
were commissioned to do such, since before the
Scriptures were written down. This is why even though
not that many people could read or write, they could
still recite the Scriptures and knew them.
And these people would have understood the Jewish
symbolism, that the writers of the texts, who were also
Jews, would have used. For example...
In Moses' day, the Sun literally went dark over Egypt
for three days. Thus, Egypt was under judgment. Since
that time, the Sun (representing God's light) going
dark was used as a symbolic way of saying that a nation
was falling under judgment. Now how did God judge the
nation, as in, how did He carry out the judgment?
Simple. By using other nations.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating? What
did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say. :)
Of course the statements weren't literal! It was
symbolism. It means that God turned away from that
nation and judged it. The Sun going dark is used
symbolically, as something that would be understood
from the days of Moses. So why do you people, knowing
how much symbolism is used in the Bible, demand that
the statements from Jesus be literal?
So let's look at a comparison of some fulfilled Old
Testament prophecies and compare them to the language
Jesus used, in Matthew 24 & Luke 21 & Revelation.
Isaiah 13:8 - Matthew 24:8; Luke 21:26
"And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take
hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that
travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their
faces shall be as flames." - Isaiah 13:8
"All these are the beginning of sorrows."
- Matthew 24:8
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth: for
the powers of heaven shall be shaken." - Luke 21:26
"And she being with child cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered." - Revelation 12:2
Isaiah 13:9 - Luke 21:20
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and
he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
- Isaiah 13:9
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
- Luke 21:20
Isaiah 13:10 - Matthew 24:29
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof
shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened
in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her
light to shine." - Isaiah 13:10
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" - Matthew 24:29
Isaiah 13:15 - Luke 21:23
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and
every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the
sword." - Isaiah 13:15
"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them
that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great
distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."
- Luke 21:23
Isaiah 13:18 - Matthew 24:19
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces;
and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
their eye shall not spare children." - Isaiah 13:18
"And woe unto them that are with child, and to them
that give suck in those days!" - Matthew 24:29
Now PLEASE, PRAY FIRST and spend the time to actually
read and STUDY what they say, leaving your doctrines to
the side. End timers claim to let Scripture do the
talking, yet when it is clear that their doctrine fails
before the light of Scripture, the first thing they do,
is whip out a passage that they think says it is
literal, thereby pitting Scripture against Scripture
and having it contradict itself. Then when you AGAIN
PROVE to them that it can't be literal, what do they
do? They IGNORE that and then proceed to INSULT you.
That folks, is *_NOT_* the sign of a Christian
letting Scripture do the talking, nor is it a sign of
being lead by the Holy Spirit. Pitting Scripture
against itself is an attempt to confuse and God is not
the author of confusion. So PLEASE, DON'T be one of
those people.
The fact is, that FULFILLED prophecies show the SAME
language being used and yet, the end timers don't
demand that a newspaper with those headlines be put in
front of them to verify it. Isn't that hypocritical?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "u2 fan" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 10:48:34 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5drr81hmhapfmq6en5upcr1l6vhb5tq2pa@4ax.com...
Hi,
Most people today look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24
& Luke 21 & Revelation as being 100% literal.
Thankfully they do ...
The rest snipped as it just turned to cahos
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 12:42:13 PM |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 16:48:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5drr81hmhapfmq6en5upcr1l6vhb5tq2pa@4ax.com...
Hi,
Most people today look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24
& Luke 21 & Revelation as being 100% literal.
Thankfully they do ...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating? What
did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say?
Hey, buddy, according to you, this must have happened
literally. If you claim it didn't, then you are
calling God a liar. So which claim do you wish to
make?
1) It happened literally and the whole world saw God
riding on a cloud, coming to destroy Egypt?
2) God lied and it never happened?
Oh and one more question. Jesus said the following...
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot, nor tittle. Literally, not one stroke,
nor dot of the Law would pass, before heaven and earth
passed. So you can't exclude ritual laws. Now either
heaven and earth passed, or we are still under the Law.
I'll believe the former.
The question I pose to you is, since you don't believe
that happened yet, why are you not still under
practicing every jot and tittle of the Law?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "P.T." |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 02:11:47 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He was speaking of the generation that would see the beginning of these
things, not necessarily the generation he was speaking to.
Patty
.
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| User: "Ray" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 06:03:16 PM |
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"P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TDqje.10044$tM3.913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He was speaking of the generation that would see the beginning of these
things, not necessarily the generation he was speaking to.
Patty
Yes Dave misses context, but he is not the only one.
The command of the language is lost on some.
More Dave comments shows how ignorant he is. I have only seen one post where
he sound intelligent, whereby he expounded many details, then he went back
to More DAVE, sure his name is not RON?
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
21 May 2005 10:51:17 AM |
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On Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03:16 +1000, "Ray"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> spake thusly:
"P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TDqje.10044$tM3.913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He was speaking of the generation that would see the beginning of these
things, not necessarily the generation he was speaking to.
Patty
Yes Dave misses context, but he is not the only one.
Dave does not add words to the Bible.
The command of the language is lost on some.
More Dave comments shows how ignorant he is. I have only seen one post where
he sound intelligent, whereby he expounded many details, then he went back
to More DAVE, sure his name is not RON?
Ignorance is that which demands that words not be read
as written.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
05 Sep 2005 07:41:10 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sulu81h4r5tdum85br9cevmiddc5hgbma8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03:16 +1000, "Ray"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> spake thusly:
"P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TDqje.10044$tM3.913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He was speaking of the generation that would see the beginning of these
things, not necessarily the generation he was speaking to.
Patty
Yes Dave misses context, but he is not the only one.
Dave does not add words to the Bible.
Look up the word *context*, there was no need to be *redundant* by adding
*unneeded words* I mean most of us don't suffer with your mental deficiency
The command of the language is lost on some.
More Dave comments shows how ignorant he is. I have only seen one post
where
he sound intelligent, whereby he expounded many details, then he went back
to More DAVE, sure his name is not RON?
Ignorance is that which demands that words not be read
as written.
Ignorance ignors the over all *context*
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
Only if you think that somehow not having the "last word" makes you *wrong*
(which it doesn't), many of us let others make themselves the fool *with*
their "last word" (readers come to their own conclusions, regardless of who
has the last word)
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
05 Sep 2005 07:46:24 PM |
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On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:41:10 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sulu81h4r5tdum85br9cevmiddc5hgbma8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03:16 +1000, "Ray"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> spake thusly:
"P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TDqje.10044$tM3.913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
And yet, you don't take this statement literally, which
Jesus said in the 1st century...
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
He was speaking of the generation that would see the beginning of these
things, not necessarily the generation he was speaking to.
Patty
Yes Dave misses context, but he is not the only one.
Dave does not add words to the Bible.
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
07 Sep 2005 04:26:29 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:skpph1h5ed77kcdheam1csveatrhv8t7eq@4ax.com...
On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:41:10 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sulu81h4r5tdum85br9cevmiddc5hgbma8@4ax.com...
On Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03:16 +1000, "Ray"
<raymokeeffe@888hotmail.com> spake thusly:
"P.T." <pt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TDqje.10044$tM3.913@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in
message
news:q28s81lovjcfsnesmfodqn6l461vugkude@4ax.com...
<snip>
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear these
very words ?
Reminder, I am not one of those, what do you call them, "last dayers"(?), in
that I believe, that *every generation* from the time Jesus literally spoke
those words, until now (read Ecc.1:9-11) is that "generation standing here"
and the have, are, will, see all of prophecy fulfilled, some literally, some
metaphorically, symbolically, or whatever
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
07 Sep 2005 07:06:20 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:26:29 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right? So
what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Douglas W. Thomas" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
07 Sep 2005 07:16:33 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mvvuh1l3u5hscme5fetdimimfmd7seao2r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:26:29 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is
it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear
these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right? So
what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
I would have to seriously question the translation of "this generation" into
"every generation". Likewise "here" for "everywhere".
Doug
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
07 Sep 2005 08:13:04 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:16:33 -0600, "Douglas W. Thomas"
<douglas.w.thomas@NOSPAMcomcast.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is
it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear
these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right? So
what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
I would have to seriously question the translation of "this generation" into
"every generation". Likewise "here" for "everywhere".
Agreed. But that is the kind of linguistic gymnastics
that end timers are forced into.
Do yourself a favor. Bring up those passages to people
who are end timers and I guarantee you, every time,
they'll immediately launch into some method of trying
to explain it away and convince you that it doesn't
actually mean what it clearly says, but rather,
something else. Every time. :)
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
11 Sep 2005 03:50:45 PM |
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I am not an "end timer", want you me to explain why *again* ?
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lt3vh11g8k7d01tumiri5u8aqholp6j4su@4ax.com...
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:16:33 -0600, "Douglas W. Thomas"
<douglas.w.thomas@NOSPAMcomcast.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to
happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops
in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those
very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it.
Is
it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the
Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear
these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right? So
what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
I would have to seriously question the translation of "this generation"
into
"every generation". Likewise "here" for "everywhere".
Agreed. But that is the kind of linguistic gymnastics
that end timers are forced into.
Do yourself a favor. Bring up those passages to people
who are end timers and I guarantee you, every time,
they'll immediately launch into some method of trying
to explain it away and convince you that it doesn't
actually mean what it clearly says, but rather,
something else. Every time. :)
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
11 Sep 2005 03:49:25 PM |
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So would I, actually, but I hadn't said anything of the sort, think about
it.
"Douglas W. Thomas" <douglas.w.thomas@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:ONydnZ1k_Y17H4LeRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mvvuh1l3u5hscme5fetdimimfmd7seao2r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:26:29 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to
happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops
in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is
it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the
Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear
these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right? So
what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
I would have to seriously question the translation of "this generation"
into
"every generation". Likewise "here" for "everywhere".
Doug
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
11 Sep 2005 03:48:00 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mvvuh1l3u5hscme5fetdimimfmd7seao2r@4ax.com...
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:26:29 -0500, "Glenn \(Christian
Mystic\)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> spake thusly:
Look up the word *context*,
I did. It said, "Not what Glenn says".
No one said it did, but it does have to do with what is supposed to happen
(all of it) in relation to the generation Christ was talking about. And
don't bother with your "taking things too literally" argument, it flops in
that you take "this generation standing here" far too literally,
Sure. "This generation" means every generation. I
mean, that's what the word "this" means, right? So
Jesus was saying, "Every generation shall not pass,
til all these things be fulfilled". Yea, that's it. (:
Each and an every generation that reads or hears this text *is* alive, and
"standing here" thus have not passed on *when* they read / hear it; can you
honestly deny this ?
ignoring the fact that every generation who *reads* or *hears* those very
words *are standing here* very much *alive* when they read or hear it. Is
it
just possible that when the Holy Spirit gave these words to Jesus the Holy
Spirit was *aware* that future generations would actually read / hear
these
very words ?
Right. "Standing here" means standing anywhere in the
world. The word "here" means "everywhere", right?
"here" is wherever I happen to be, yes, you are correct.
Your attempts at sarcasm are failing you badly.
So what Jesus was saying was, "There are some of those
standing everywhere...". Sure, that's it, right. (:
No Dave, He said "standing here" so where *are you* ? Are you not "here" ?
Goodbye, Glenn. I don't have time for such nonsense.
What "nonsense" might that be ???
You know what, our readers have more brains than you may think !
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
.
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| User: "u2 fan" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 01:17:34 PM |
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"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
We've already talked about that verse,
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the events
is 42 months ...
"this generation" is the generation that sees the signs
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 02:57:49 PM |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
We've already talked about that verse,
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the events
is 42 months ...
"this generation" is the generation that sees the signs
Let's face it. You're a liar that refuses to back up
your claims. Nowhere does Jesus say what you claim.
And why do you keep snipping the rest of what I wrote?
Here it is again and also note the other subject I
brought up, which you also snipped, regarding heaven
and earth passing and the law.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating? What
did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say?
Hey, buddy, according to you, this must have happened
literally. If you claim it didn't, then you are
calling God a liar. So which claim do you wish to
make?
1) It happened literally and the whole world saw God
riding on a cloud, coming to destroy Egypt?
2) God lied and it never happened?
Oh and one more question. Jesus said the following...
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot, nor tittle. Literally, not one stroke,
nor dot of the Law would pass, before heaven and earth
passed. So you can't exclude ritual laws. Now either
heaven and earth passed, or we are still under the Law.
I'll believe the former.
The question I pose to you is, since you don't believe
that happened yet, why are you not still under
practicing every jot and tittle of the Law?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
15 Aug 2005 09:46:04 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:otfs81terne953ge7qdhibpd55pinhud70@4ax.com...
On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
So its LITERALLY the generation Jesus had listening to Him at the time He
spoke it ?
We've already talked about that verse,
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the
events
is 42 months ...
"this generation" is the generation that sees the signs
Let's face it. You're a liar that refuses to back up
your claims.
WOW, you read minds ? I mean, you know u2 fan, doesn't believe what he/she
claims, and is deliberately trying to deceive ?
Nowhere does Jesus say what you claim.
No, He doesn't literally, bluntly say it, correct... but the text *does*
imply it.
And why do you keep snipping the rest of what I wrote?
Here it is again and also note the other subject I
brought up, which you also snipped, regarding heaven
and earth passing and the law.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the idols literally move?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
What did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say?
Correct, recall the texy stating that Jesus spoke *only* in parables ?
Hey, buddy, according to you, this must have happened
literally.
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
If you claim it didn't, then you are
calling God a liar. So which claim do you wish to
make?
Really, good question, you might trying asking yourself the very same
question !
1) It happened literally and the whole world saw God
riding on a cloud, coming to destroy Egypt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally* meant
the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
2) God lied and it never happened?
Oh and one more question. Jesus said the following...
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot, nor tittle. Literally, not one stroke,
nor dot of the Law would pass, before heaven and earth
passed. So you can't exclude ritual laws. Now either
heaven and earth passed, or we are still under the Law.
Nor can *you* evidently !
I'll believe the former.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
The question I pose to you is, since you don't believe
that happened yet, why are you not still under
practicing every jot and tittle of the Law?
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Read The Bible" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
16 Aug 2005 12:01:50 AM |
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A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a
generation.
Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.
This is the generation of them that seek him.
This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be
saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened
the days.
We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
*******
While they beheld, Jesus was taken up; and a cloud received him out of
their sight.
This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come
in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud.
I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones
for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. The noise of a
multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous
noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts
mustereth the host of the battle. They come from a far country, from
the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation,
to destroy the whole land.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a
sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the
fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners
thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give
their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon
shall not cause her light to shine.
The sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their
iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and
will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and
against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false
prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them
that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his
image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with
brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when
he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day
upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and
the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east
and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half
of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward
the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the
valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like
as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be
clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the
LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening
time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters
shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and
half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it
be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall
there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a
plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted
up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of
the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel
unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall
be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from
the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the
hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of
his neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth
of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and
silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of
the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the *****, and of all the
beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come
to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came
against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the
King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it
shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth
unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them
shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not,
that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will
smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all
nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day
shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD;
and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the
altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto
the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of
them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the
Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language
of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The
city of destruction. In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in
the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to
the LORD. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of
hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of
the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and
he shall deliver them. And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the
Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and
oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And
the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall
return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall
heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to
Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into
Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day
shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing
in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and
Israel mine inheritance.
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
16 Aug 2005 07:14:02 AM |
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your nickname on here says it all.. so what manner of spirit are they
hearing?
"Read The Bible" <bibleverse2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124168510.707493.313140@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a
generation.
Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation.
This is the generation of them that seek him.
This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be
saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened
the days.
We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
*******
While they beheld, Jesus was taken up; and a cloud received him out of
their sight.
This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come
in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud.
I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones
for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. The noise of a
multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous
noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts
mustereth the host of the battle. They come from a far country, from
the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation,
to destroy the whole land.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a
sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the
fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce
anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners
thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give
their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon
shall not cause her light to shine.
The sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be
shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their
iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and
will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and
against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false
prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them
that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his
image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with
brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when
he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day
upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and
the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east
and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half
of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward
the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the
valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like
as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be
clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the
LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening
time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters
shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and
half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it
be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall
there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a
plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted
up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of
the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel
unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall
be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the
people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume
away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume
away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their
mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from
the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the
hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of
his neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth
of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and
silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of
the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the *****, and of all the
beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come
to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came
against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the
King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it
shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth
unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them
shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not,
that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will
smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all
nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day
shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD;
and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the
altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto
the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of
them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the
Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language
of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The
city of destruction. In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in
the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to
the LORD. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of
hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of
the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and
he shall deliver them. And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the
Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and
oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And
the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall
return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall
heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to
Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into
Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day
shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing
in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying,
Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and
Israel mine inheritance.
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| User: "Mary Hogan" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
16 Aug 2005 09:44:36 AM |
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Christian Mystic is an oxymoron.
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:11g2k8nk483m1ed@corp.supernews.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:otfs81terne953ge7qdhibpd55pinhud70@4ax.com...
On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
So its LITERALLY the generation Jesus had listening to Him at the time He
spoke it ?
We've already talked about that verse,
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation
that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the
events
is 42 months ...
"this generation" is the generation that sees the signs
Let's face it. You're a liar that refuses to back up
your claims.
WOW, you read minds ? I mean, you know u2 fan, doesn't believe what he/she
claims, and is deliberately trying to deceive ?
Nowhere does Jesus say what you claim.
No, He doesn't literally, bluntly say it, correct... but the text *does*
imply it.
And why do you keep snipping the rest of what I wrote?
Here it is again and also note the other subject I
brought up, which you also snipped, regarding heaven
and earth passing and the law.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the idols literally move?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
What did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say?
Correct, recall the texy stating that Jesus spoke *only* in parables ?
Hey, buddy, according to you, this must have happened
literally.
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
If you claim it didn't, then you are
calling God a liar. So which claim do you wish to
make?
Really, good question, you might trying asking yourself the very same
question !
1) It happened literally and the whole world saw God
riding on a cloud, coming to destroy Egypt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
2) God lied and it never happened?
Oh and one more question. Jesus said the following...
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot, nor tittle. Literally, not one stroke,
nor dot of the Law would pass, before heaven and earth
passed. So you can't exclude ritual laws. Now either
heaven and earth passed, or we are still under the Law.
Nor can *you* evidently !
I'll believe the former.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
The question I pose to you is, since you don't believe
that happened yet, why are you not still under
practicing every jot and tittle of the Law?
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Scott" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
16 Aug 2005 07:12:48 AM |
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Wasting your time here. First off the Greek in " this generation shall not
pass, till all thing be done" clearly implies " this generation I speak of"
go look it up and ask Greek scholars.
Jesus also mentions " in the regeneration, when the son of man takes his
throne" bet you he don't know the Greek there either.
2nd.. "pastor Dave" is a replacement theologian.
he denies simple promises given to Israel, for instance, the simple truth
of Jeremiah 31,31 eludes these people.
for instance, he will tell you that the church is now Israel that GOD is
finishes with "The Jews" well Jeremiah don't say that. Now note, he will say
" you falsely accuse me" or he might just ignore me..
well he never answers and makes whole doctrines out of context continually.
but lets see it in his view.
"the days are coming that I will make a new covenant with the church, not
according to Sinai, because after all, I made a covenant with the church at
Sinai,
because the old one they broke, although I was a husband to them"
but this shall be the covenant, after those days, I will put my laws within
them and they shall be my people and I shall be their GOD"
so the church has broken the covenant at Sinai, furthermore the church will
have the laws of GOD on them, but the church is not under the law.
these views of these people are so absurd, its boggling..
first off, the NT does not say out of context that we are not under Gods
laws, it says we are not under the laws ACCORDING TO SINAI.
they have no idea what "Grace" Hebrew "chesid" means at all and you know
why? Because they have not received the Holy Spirit and are taught of men.
they boast against the natural branch all day long, what their fathers
taught them men like the vile Luther and the Jew hating Calvin. as it is
written "surely we have inherited lies our father taught us that profit us
nothing"
being led into destruction by teachers who tickle their itching ears with
damning heresies.. apostates full of sin who can not resist and fall
continually, because the way of true repentance they know not because they
deny THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD OF SPIRITS, even THE ANCIENT OF DAYS BY THE SON
OF MAN.
in such the wrath of GOD is reserved for them, even because they have
denied the word of YHVH who has said that The Jews shall be his people again
in truth and in right ways. They feed on the sheep daily, and feed the sheep
poison.
but here is the good news, while they live they can repent, so pray for
that.its never too late, nit it is if they have been seared within a hot
iron inwardly,,
see I have no hate for them, nor will I contend with them. and it aint
about me anyways.
they have been taught of wicked men, so their ways are sure, they are not
of Messiah, at this time they are the goats. but they can hear HIS VOICE and
be turned to a sheep.
waste of time to contend, therefore By Yeshua in YHVH, rebuke them by THE
LORD OF SPIRITS, and let them go on their way, praying that the sheep resist
their lies they teach.
to end, anyone who denies that GOD WILL yet again chose The Jews, restore
them fully and denies the laws of GOD (that I mean the laws never change,
Paul clearly means by that we are not under the law, to be NOT UNDER THE
COVENANT AT SINAI, which is bondage to words written on stone, that now can
be written on the hearts.
this simple denying the word of THE LORD OF ALL THE LIVING means they have
accepted the words of another.
Let them be and pray for them.. Peace
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christianmystic@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:11g2k8nk483m1ed@corp.supernews.com...
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:otfs81terne953ge7qdhibpd55pinhud70@4ax.com...
On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
So its LITERALLY the generation Jesus had listening to Him at the time He
spoke it ?
We've already talked about that verse,
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation
that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the
events
is 42 months ...
"this generation" is the generation that sees the signs
Let's face it. You're a liar that refuses to back up
your claims.
WOW, you read minds ? I mean, you know u2 fan, doesn't believe what he/she
claims, and is deliberately trying to deceive ?
Nowhere does Jesus say what you claim.
No, He doesn't literally, bluntly say it, correct... but the text *does*
imply it.
And why do you keep snipping the rest of what I wrote?
Here it is again and also note the other subject I
brought up, which you also snipped, regarding heaven
and earth passing and the law.
Take a look at what Isaiah said about the judgment
against Egypt, when they were again judged by God,
in this fulfilled prophecy, regarding when God used
THE ASSYRIANS to judge Egypt...
The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a
SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the idols literally move?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
What did they do, lay this huge heart in the town square and
watch it beat? Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say?
Correct, recall the texy stating that Jesus spoke *only* in parables ?
Hey, buddy, according to you, this must have happened
literally.
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
If you claim it didn't, then you are
calling God a liar. So which claim do you wish to
make?
Really, good question, you might trying asking yourself the very same
question !
1) It happened literally and the whole world saw God
riding on a cloud, coming to destroy Egypt?
Seems *you* would believe it ! I mean you claim that Jesus *literally*
meant the generation living at the time He spoke it, correct ??
2) God lied and it never happened?
Oh and one more question. Jesus said the following...
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot, nor tittle. Literally, not one stroke,
nor dot of the Law would pass, before heaven and earth
passed. So you can't exclude ritual laws. Now either
heaven and earth passed, or we are still under the Law.
Nor can *you* evidently !
I'll believe the former.
You don't seem to know what you believe.
The question I pose to you is, since you don't believe
that happened yet, why are you not still under
practicing every jot and tittle of the Law?
--
Pastor Dave
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 02:50:37 PM |
|
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
We've already talked about that verse,
No, you have insulted me.
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the events
is 42 months ...
You are making a claim. That is not proof. Where can
I find Jesus saying what you claim?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 02:51:05 PM |
|
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:17:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
You see, you must think that God lied before.
We've already talked about that verse,
No, you have insulted me.
Jesus mean't it in context of the rest of the chapter, the generation that
sees wars false Christs etc... will not pass because duration of the events
is 42 months ...
You are making a claim. That is not proof. Where can
I find Jesus saying what you claim?
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 12:45:21 PM |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 16:48:34 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
Your dishonest practice of snipping news groups out of
the header has been noted again. I have restored them.
Or do you wish to tell the lie that your ISP only
allows you to respond with four groups in the headers,
when I have bagged you responding with six?
"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5drr81hmhapfmq6en5upcr1l6vhb5tq2pa@4ax.com...
Hi,
Most people today look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24
& Luke 21 & Revelation as being 100% literal.
Thankfully they do ...
The rest snipped as it just turned to chaos
You mean that you cannot refute it. Your dishonesty
has become apparent to all. And neither you, nor
anyone else has been able to refute my points (no glory
to me, it all goes to God). That is why you have zero
backup. Just a few who hurl personal insults at me and
most of the time, in messages to others, yet never give
a rebuttal.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "u2 fan" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 01:18:48 PM |
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Some times it does some times it doesn't the nsa I route through use
different servers ...
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 02:55:06 PM |
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On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:18:48 +0100, "u2 fan"
<whereissylvia@c.c> spake thusly:
Some times it does some times it doesn't the nsa I route
through use different servers ...
Sure. I nice convenient explanation for you. I'm
sorry, but you are lying again. You claimed that
your ISP only allowed for four groups in the header.
That was a lie and we both know it to this day, you
refuse to own up to it.
--
Pastor Dave
Silence in the Face of Doctrinal Criticism is Suicide
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
.
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| User: "Glenn \Christian Mystic" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
17 Jun 2005 05:38:10 PM |
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"Pastor Dave" <news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5drr81hmhapfmq6en5upcr1l6vhb5tq2pa@4ax.com...
Hi,
Most people today look at Jesus' words in Matthew 24
& Luke 21 & Revelation as being 100% literal.
Well, most Fundamentlists do anyway.
But isn't this kinda like when you insist that Jesus meant only those
standing there with Him in person, at the exact time He stated that "there
are those standing here who will not taste death before...", like as no
other meaning can be possible ???
<snippers>
.
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| User: "bibleverse" |
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| Title: Re: THE END? ISAIAH 13 & NT |
20 May 2005 11:33:49 AM |
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Originally posted by Dave:
End timers claim to let Scripture do the talking,
yet when it is clear that their doctrine fails
before the light of Scripture
-
Any poetic or symbolic imagery of prophetic visions
in no way detracts from the literalness of the events
which they foretell. Hearts don't have to literally
melt, but just as Jesus was rec | |
