| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
01 Jan 2008 09:24:55 PM |
| Object: |
The Existence of God |
The following are the notes for a sermon from Chris Hodges. Quite
interesting and makes many valid points.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
The Existence of God
by Chris Hodges
Text: Genesis 1.1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the
earth."
Thesis: To prove that God exists; therefore, man must obey Him.
Introduction:
(1) In today's world, humanistic theories such as evolution have caused many
people to doubt the validity of God's existence.
(2) Nevertheless, God still does exist, but how does one go about proving
His existence?
(a) Does one go to the Bible to prove God's existence?
i. If so, then, in reality, one would be arguing in a circle.
ii. For example, one who believes in Islam might say that he/she knows that
Allah exists because the Koran says so and then if asked about the authority
of the Koran, he/she might respond by saying, "It's Allah's word."
iii. Substitute God for Allah and the Bible for the Koran and you get the
point (Gilmore).
(b) One proves God's existence by looking at the evidence everywhere that
he/she looks.
i. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen being understood
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20).
ii. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his
handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge"
(Ps. 19.1-2).
(3) We shall look at three arguments for the existence of God:
Discussion:
I. The Teleological Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. This is better known as the design argument.
1. It was popularized by men such as William Paley who demonstrated it by
noting that if a watch is found to have clear-cut evidence of design, then
it must have a watchmaker.
2. Henceforth, if concrete evidence of design can be found, then there must
be a designer (i.e., God).
3. The Hebrew writer states it as follows: "For every house is built by some
man; but he that built all things is God" (Heb. 3.4).
B. It is best seen demonstrated by examining two realms: 1) Inorganic; and
2) Organic.
1. First, the inorganic realm will be examined by noting the earth's
location in the universe.
a. The location of the earth is in just the right spot to receive the
correct amount of heat and radiation.
(1) The sun's interior temperature is estimated at over twenty million
degrees Celsius with the earth located ninety-three million miles away from
it.
(a) If the earth were ten percent closer to the sun, then there would be too
much heat upon the earth.
(b) If it were ten percent further away from the sun, then there would not
be enough heat upon the earth.
(2) Did this design occur by chance or by a designer?
b. The rotation of the earth provides clear examples of design.
(1) The earth is moving around the sun at 70,000 miles per hour while
rotating on its axis at 1,000 miles per hour at the equator.
(2) It departs from a straight line by just one-ninth of an inch every
eighteen miles.
(3) Mankind would either burn to death if the earth were to depart from that
line by one-eighth of an inch or would freeze to death if it were to depart
by one-tenth of an inch.
(4) Did this design occur by chance or by a designer?
c. As one said, "Everywhere we look are found examples of design so
intricate and so interdependent that they could have been produced only by
supernatural intelligence and only according to a marvelous, overall plan"
(Castell).
2. Second, the organic realm will be examined by noting the design of the
human eye.
a. Charles Darwin himself said, "If it could be demonstrated that any
complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by
numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break
down."
b. As one evolutionist wrote, "It is hard to accept the evolution of the eye
as a product of chance [.] The eye appears to have been designed; no
designer of telescopes could have done better" (Jastrow).
c. How does the human eye exemplify design?
(1) It can handle 1.5 million simultaneous messages.
(2) It gathers eighty percent of all knowledge that is absorbed by the
brain.
(3) A person would have to walk fifty miles each day to get the muscles in
the leg to get the same amount of exercise as does the human eye.
(4) The probability of this evolving "has never been observed and will never
be observed by any human in the entire universe" (Borel).
(5) Charles Darwin even admitted, "To suppose that they eye with all its
inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for
admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical
and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection,
seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest sense."
d. As one wrote, "The unprejudiced mind cannot fail to read in every organ,
nay, we may say in every cell and fiber, the inscription of purpose, and to
learn thereby that hey are the products of supreme power directed by supreme
wisdom" (Macalister).
II. The Cosmological Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. The argument goes as follows:
1. If the world exists and is contingent, then a necessary being exists.
2. P
3. Therefore, Q
B. The argument explained:
1. All things are contingent and changing.
2. They demand a sufficient reason.
3. Hence, a necessary being is only possible (Lipe).
III. The Morality Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. The argument goes as follows:
1. If the moral code of someone can be criticized as to real moral wrong,
then there must be some objective standard other than the moral code.
2. P
3. Therefore, Q
B. The argument explained:
1. Why were the Nazis found guilty of the events of the Holocaust?
a. R. H. Jackson, in his closing address in the Nuremberg Trial, appealed to
a higher law, which rises above the provincial and transient.
b. What law was this?
(1) They were not guilty of the law of Germany.
(2) They were not amenable to the law of England, USA, etc.
(3) This is the higher law over all others.
(a) This law transcends place and time.
(b) It is the words of Jesus (cf. John 12.48).
2. This is the concept of "doing by nature the things contained in the law"
(Rom. 2.14). (Warren)
Conclusion:
(1) If God does not exist, then:
(a) We are nothing but organized matter.
(b) Everything we are and do is the result of non-living, non-intelligent,
non-purposive matter.
(c) There is no real right or wrong, good or evil.
(d) No one had any real obligation to do anything or not do anything.
(e) Physical death is the absolute end of us all.
(f) No matter how we have acted, there will be no accounting, no judgment,
and no punishment (Lipe).
(2) The Christian needs not to fear the attacks being made against the
Christian faith by those who are blinded by scientism and humanism, but
rather boldly and loudly proclaim the valid and true arguments for the
existence of God while also pointing out that true science disproves
evolution and proves creation.
(3) We must declare facts instead of fictions of men and truth instead of
lies of evolution and then those who will weigh the evidence will climb the
mountain of knowledge only to find creationists on the top who had been
there all alone. Then we will all be able to join hands and declare that
Genesis 1.1 has been right all along.
(4) Since God does exist, then we must obey Him by obeying the gospel and
being faithful.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: The Existence of God |
02 Jan 2008 03:26:03 AM |
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Carl wrote:
The following are the notes for a sermon from Chris Hodges. Quite
interesting and makes many valid points.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
The Existence of God
by Chris Hodges
....is a primitive myth
[ By a common sense practitioner]
.......you see, no gods ever show,
yet in spite of this brain dead individuals still insist they are there.
Most competent brain doctors have a name for it
<SNIP>
.
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| User: "rogue" |
|
| Title: Re: The Existence of God |
02 Jan 2008 12:13:28 AM |
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On Jan 2, 7:24 am, "Carl" <sai...@nettally.com> wrote:
The following are the notes for a sermon from Chris Hodges. Quite
interesting and makes many valid points.
JERRY
Um, not really. Want me to show you why?
See my comments below.
---
The Existence of God
by Chris Hodges
Text: Genesis 1.1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the
earth."
Thesis: To prove that God exists; therefore, man must obey Him.
Introduction:
(1) In today's world, humanistic theories such as evolution have caused many
people to doubt the validity of God's existence.
(2) Nevertheless, God still does exist, but how does one go about proving
His existence?
(a) Does one go to the Bible to prove God's existence?
i. If so, then, in reality, one would be arguing in a circle.
ii. For example, one who believes in Islam might say that he/she knows that
Allah exists because the Koran says so and then if asked about the authority
of the Koran, he/she might respond by saying, "It's Allah's word."
iii. Substitute God for Allah and the Bible for the Koran and you get the
point (Gilmore).
(b) One proves God's existence by looking at the evidence everywhere that
he/she looks.
i. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen being understood
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1.20).
ii. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his
handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge"
(Ps. 19.1-2).
(3) We shall look at three arguments for the existence of God:
Discussion:
I. The Teleological Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. This is better known as the design argument.
1. It was popularized by men such as William Paley who demonstrated it by
noting that if a watch is found to have clear-cut evidence of design, then
it must have a watchmaker.
2. Henceforth, if concrete evidence of design can be found, then there must
be a designer (i.e., God).
3. The Hebrew writer states it as follows: "For every house is built by some
man; but he that built all things is God" (Heb. 3.4).
B. It is best seen demonstrated by examining two realms: 1) Inorganic; and
2) Organic.
1. First, the inorganic realm will be examined by noting the earth's
location in the universe.
a. The location of the earth is in just the right spot to receive the
correct amount of heat and radiation.
(1) The sun's interior temperature is estimated at over twenty million
degrees Celsius with the earth located ninety-three million miles away from
it.
(a) If the earth were ten percent closer to the sun, then there would be too
much heat upon the earth.
(b) If it were ten percent further away from the sun, then there would not
be enough heat upon the earth.
(2) Did this design occur by chance or by a designer?
b. The rotation of the earth provides clear examples of design.
(1) The earth is moving around the sun at 70,000 miles per hour while
rotating on its axis at 1,000 miles per hour at the equator.
(2) It departs from a straight line by just one-ninth of an inch every
eighteen miles.
(3) Mankind would either burn to death if the earth were to depart from that
line by one-eighth of an inch or would freeze to death if it were to depart
by one-tenth of an inch.
(4) Did this design occur by chance or by a designer?
c. As one said, "Everywhere we look are found examples of design so
intricate and so interdependent that they could have been produced only by
supernatural intelligence and only according to a marvelous, overall plan"
(Castell).
2. Second, the organic realm will be examined by noting the design of the
human eye.
a. Charles Darwin himself said, "If it could be demonstrated that any
complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by
numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break
down."
b. As one evolutionist wrote, "It is hard to accept the evolution of the eye
as a product of chance [.] The eye appears to have been designed; no
designer of telescopes could have done better" (Jastrow).
c. How does the human eye exemplify design?
(1) It can handle 1.5 million simultaneous messages.
(2) It gathers eighty percent of all knowledge that is absorbed by the
brain.
(3) A person would have to walk fifty miles each day to get the muscles in
the leg to get the same amount of exercise as does the human eye.
(4) The probability of this evolving "has never been observed and will never
be observed by any human in the entire universe" (Borel).
(5) Charles Darwin even admitted, "To suppose that they eye with all its
inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for
admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical
and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection,
seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest sense."
d. As one wrote, "The unprejudiced mind cannot fail to read in every organ,
nay, we may say in every cell and fiber, the inscription of purpose, and to
learn thereby that hey are the products of supreme power directed by supreme
wisdom" (Macalister).
JERRY
Think of this as the anthropomorphic principle. Life changes and
adapts to fill the environment.
Put another way, suppose a mud puddle woke up one morning and said,
"What a perfect world, created just perfectly for me to survive and
thrive. It must have been put here by some designer.
Natural selection shows that life adapts in the ways best suited for
survival. If the environment was different than what we see today,
then the life we see today would look differently as well, since it
would have had to adapt to the conditions that pre-existed that life.
II. The Cosmological Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. The argument goes as follows:
1. If the world exists and is contingent, then a necessary being exists.
2. P
3. Therefore, Q
B. The argument explained:
1. All things are contingent and changing.
2. They demand a sufficient reason.
3. Hence, a necessary being is only possible (Lipe).
JERRY
And we have the necessary sufficient reason (and it's not god). We
have natural selection taking single celled life forms and over
billions of years we have that life becoming more and more complex as
it adapts to survive.
III. The Morality Argument Proves the Existence of God.
A. The argument goes as follows:
1. If the moral code of someone can be criticized as to real moral wrong,
then there must be some objective standard other than the moral code.
2. P
3. Therefore, Q
B. The argument explained:
1. Why were the Nazis found guilty of the events of the Holocaust?
a. R. H. Jackson, in his closing address in the Nuremberg Trial, appealed to
a higher law, which rises above the provincial and transient.
b. What law was this?
(1) They were not guilty of the law of Germany.
(2) They were not amenable to the law of England, USA, etc.
(3) This is the higher law over all others.
(a) This law transcends place and time.
(b) It is the words of Jesus (cf. John 12.48).
2. This is the concept of "doing by nature the things contained in the law"
(Rom. 2.14). (Warren)
JERRY
You mean like the Hammurabi Code, which predated Christianity? You
mean like the Golden Rule, which predated Christianity and likely
Judaism as well? Moral codes do not have to reflect a deity's
involvement. Moral codes can reflect the desire, wishes and values of
the culture.
Conclusion:
(1) If God does not exist, then:
(a) We are nothing but organized matter.
JERRY
Most likely, but organized matter that has created a culture of values
for itself. We are not alone in this, as many life forms on this
planet have also evolved cultures of values, such as chimpanzees and
porpoises.
(b) Everything we are and do is the result of non-living, non-intelligent,
non-purposive matter.
JERRY
Wrong. No one knows for sure where the original living matter first
formed or existed. Perhaps it was brought to earth into the warm seas
of our recently cooled planet by something cosmic. Perhaps it was
seeded by another, more intelligent species. Lots of possibilities
but no evidence for any of them. There are a number of hypotheses
about it but no scientific evidence yet to show one way or the other.
However, everything we ARE and Do is the result of billions of years
of changes, natural selection, and in the last several thousand, the
cultural decisions that were made by our ancestors that helped to
create us as we are today.
(c) There is no real right or wrong, good or evil.
JERRY
Again, not true, and not even part of the arguments above, just an
assumption. Cultures create their own right and wrongs. Look at the
Ten Commandments. Those rules were not intended to apply to
everyone. Even the really big ones like "Thou Shalt Not Kill" were
only intended to be upheld within the Tribe. God ordered the
Israelites to murder all the time. 1 Samuel 15 is clear evidence of
it, therefore murder wasn't a big deal to the God of the Israelites.
Cultures decide what is right and wrong for them, just as the Ten
Commandments were not really stone tablets handed down by man from
God, but rather rules created within the tribe to promote harmony (or
prevent discord) and keep the tribe strong against outsiders.
(d) No one had any real obligation to do anything or not do anything.
JERRY
Obligations are requirements we put on ourselves, not something that
has to come from some deity. Another assumption that has no basis. I
am married and have an obligation to provide for my family. That is a
cultural requirement we create, not something that comes from a sky
pixie. Some people meet that obligation while others do not. Some
people order their lives around trying to avoid obligations while
other embrace them. Neither activity is a requirement from above.
(e) Physical death is the absolute end of us all.
JERRY
Perhaps and even likely. And this is the main reason that people
cling to religion: the fear that when they die, there is nothing
else. However, no one has ever been clinically dead and come back to
tell us what is there or not. There are some interesting near death
experiences (NDEs) but they are not conclusive. There are even tales
of people who have come back telling stories of previous lives they
lived. But no evidence, no proof.
(f) No matter how we have acted, there will be no accounting, no judgment,
and no punishment (Lipe).
JERRY
Well, we can look at the failed parousia and already see that the
tales of the Second Coming and Judgment Day didn't happen, and
therefore won't. Jesus said that such an accounting would happen
during the lifetimes of his disciples, and since it didn't, it's
reasonable to assume that it won't.
But I maintain that people are good not because they fear some
accounting by a God. After all, Christian ministers and priests are
among the worst for being pedophiles, serial cheaters, thieves and
liars. However, they flock to the Christian belief in the hope that
no matter how bad they are, they can simply ask forgiveness of their
god and they are forgiven.
People are good because of the golden rule, because they have
expectations placed upon them by others whom they don't want to let
down. People don't need religion to be good. They need religion to
feel they are forgiven for being bad. And they seem to be bad
*often.*
(2) The Christian needs not to fear the attacks being made against the
Christian faith by those who are blinded by scientism and humanism,
(AKA those who don't need belief in invisible sky pixies to be good
and kind)
CARL's proxy
but rather boldly and loudly proclaim the valid and true arguments for the
existence of God while also pointing out that true science disproves
evolution and proves creation.
JERRY
And if your proxy had actually provided any true and valid arguments
for the existence of God, we could go from there. However, this post
is full of silly assumptions that don't support the conclusions that
are made from them. And, all true science DOES prove evolution (which
is nothing more than natural selection and the survival of the
species) and there is NO scientific evidence to prove creation.
Here is the way the scientific method works, Carl.
First, you gather all of the evidence together and examine it. That
means all of the evidence.
Then, you create hypotheses to explain what the evidence shows.
Then, you test the hypotheses to see if they are true. If the
hypotheses are disproved, you go back and re-look at the evidence and
either throw out the hypothesis entirely or you tweak it and re-test.
Once an hypothesis withstands all testing, it's upgraded to a theory.
A theory is as high as you can go. Evolution is a theory. Gravity is
a theory. Evolution is a theory because it's withstood all testing.
Evolution is a theory because it's predictive about what we will
continue to see as we learn more. Evolution is a theory because it's
been proven, in the lab and in the wild, over and over and over.
(3) We must declare facts instead of fictions of men and truth instead of
lies of evolution and then those who will weigh the evidence will climb the
mountain of knowledge only to find creationists on the top who had been
there all alone. Then we will all be able to join hands and declare that
Genesis 1.1 has been right all along.
JERRY
The problem is that the "facts" don't support Genesis. The "facts"
support evolution, Carl. And the reason you don't understand that is
that you apparently don't understand basic science or the scientific
theory.
(4) Since God does exist, then we must obey Him by obeying the gospel and
being faithful.
JERRY
I prefer looking at the bible. Since the only real claim for God's
existence if the bible and all claims to the existence of the bible
god exist within the bible, it's much more important to look at the
bible as the source for truth.
Is the bible true historically? No.
Is the bible true on prophecy? No
Is the bible consistent? Do the different accounts of the same event
show consistency or do they contradict each other? They contradict
each other.
Based upon this, it's much more likely that the bible is not true and
not the word of any Deity, and therefore the God of the bible doesn't
exist.
And I'm sorry for you that the facts can't support you, Carl. Life
would be much easier if we could believe in a sky pixie that meddled
in our affairs and did bad things to us to teach us lessons.
Sadly for you, bad things happen to you because of bad choices you
make, bad choices other people make and your inability to deal with
those and fend for yourself.
.
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