| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
| Date: |
17 Jan 2006 01:39:00 AM |
| Object: |
The issue of avoidance |
False prophecy abounds, especially on these boards, and it all comes down to
the issue of avoidance.
The dispensationalists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by truncating it
with their erroneous, unscriptural missing-week theories and rapture myths,
lopping off the front of the prophecies directed at us and saying "they"
will be in trouble when it is "us" that are in trouble.
The preterists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by ignoring the dualistic
and trinunistic nature of prophecy as attested to by Jesus Himself, and they
use their goofy notions to proclaim that prophecy is a done deal when the
game hasn't even begun yet.
And all because they don't want to be held personally accountable for their
lives and sayings, glorying that the "other guy" gets in the end, forgetting
that we ALWAYS "get it" first.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the
gospel of God?
When God gets around to settling matters, He ALWAYS starts by cleaning out
His Own house first, then He moves out into the yard, then the neighborhood,
and finally the world.
But, alas, the false prophets, squirming like worms on hooks, consistently
declare only "good" things, and proclaim a way out when God has no intention
of letting anyone off the hook. He does not take people out. He takes them
through.
As it was in the beginning, so it is, and forever shall be. Amen.
Ike
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
.
|
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| User: "Flowerchild8245" |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
17 Jan 2006 01:58:49 AM |
|
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H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
False prophecy abounds, especially on these boards, and it all comes down to
the issue of avoidance.
The dispensationalists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by truncating it
with their erroneous, unscriptural missing-week theories and rapture myths,
lopping off the front of the prophecies directed at us and saying "they"
will be in trouble when it is "us" that are in trouble.
The preterists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by ignoring the dualistic
and trinunistic nature of prophecy as attested to by Jesus Himself, and they
use their goofy notions to proclaim that prophecy is a done deal when the
game hasn't even begun yet.
And all because they don't want to be held personally accountable for their
lives and sayings, glorying that the "other guy" gets in the end, forgetting
that we ALWAYS "get it" first.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the
gospel of God?
When God gets around to settling matters, He ALWAYS starts by cleaning out
His Own house first, then He moves out into the yard, then the neighborhood,
and finally the world.
But, alas, the false prophets, squirming like worms on hooks, consistently
declare only "good" things, and proclaim a way out when God has no intention
of letting anyone off the hook. He does not take people out. He takes them
through.
As it was in the beginning, so it is, and forever shall be. Amen.
Ike
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
This said the Lord in His day :
Luk 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, TO FULFILL ALL THAT IS
WRITTEN.
{Context: Luk 21:20-22} Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem
surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those
who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the
country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that
is written.
Go ahead, tell the Lord his were not the days of vengeance, that he
has to do it again, and all that was written has to be fulfilled again.
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
17 Jan 2006 09:31:04 AM |
|
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"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137484729.915928.323810@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
False prophecy abounds, especially on these boards, and it all comes down
to
the issue of avoidance.
The dispensationalists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by truncating it
with their erroneous, unscriptural missing-week theories and rapture
myths,
lopping off the front of the prophecies directed at us and saying "they"
will be in trouble when it is "us" that are in trouble.
The preterists avoid the hard parts of prophecy by ignoring the dualistic
and trinunistic nature of prophecy as attested to by Jesus Himself, and
they
use their goofy notions to proclaim that prophecy is a done deal when the
game hasn't even begun yet.
And all because they don't want to be held personally accountable for
their
lives and sayings, glorying that the "other guy" gets in the end,
forgetting
that we ALWAYS "get it" first.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of
God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not
the
gospel of God?
When God gets around to settling matters, He ALWAYS starts by cleaning
out
His Own house first, then He moves out into the yard, then the
neighborhood,
and finally the world.
But, alas, the false prophets, squirming like worms on hooks,
consistently
declare only "good" things, and proclaim a way out when God has no
intention
of letting anyone off the hook. He does not take people out. He takes
them
through.
As it was in the beginning, so it is, and forever shall be. Amen.
Ike
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation"
is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in
Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
This said the Lord in His day :
Luk 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, TO FULFILL ALL THAT IS
WRITTEN.
{Context: Luk 21:20-22} Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem
surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those
who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the
country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that
is written.
Go ahead, tell the Lord his were not the days of vengeance, that he
has to do it again, and all that was written has to be fulfilled again.
No, the Lord is telling YOU that those were not His days of vengeance, and
that He will be doing it "again."
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour is coming, and is now come, that you shall be
scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not
alone, because the Father is with me.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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| User: "Flowerchild8245" |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 12:22:54 AM |
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This said the Lord in His day :
Luk 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, TO FULFILL ALL THAT IS
WRITTEN.
{Context: Luk 21:20-22} Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem
surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those
who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the
country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that
is written.
Go ahead, tell the Lord his were not the days of vengeance, that he
has to do it again, and all that was written has to be fulfilled again.
No, the Lord is telling YOU that those were not His days of vengeance, and
that He will be doing it "again."
Incredible! You mock the Lord. His were the days of vengeance just
like He said.
Our Lord Jesus did not say that to you or I Ike. He said therefore
to...
Luk 3:7 He said therefore to THE CROWDS that came out to be baptized
by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned YOU to flee from THE WRATH TO
COME?
And our Lord Jesus did not say this (John 16:32) to you or I Ike, He
said this to His disciples:
Joh 16:17 So some of his disciples said to one another, "What is this
that he says to US, 'A little while, and you will not see me, and again
a little while, and you will see me'; and, 'because I am going to the
Father'?"
Joh 16:31-33 Jesus answered THEM, "Do you now believe? Behold, the
hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to
his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the
Father is with me. I HAVE SAID THESE THINGS TO YOU, that in me you may
have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I
have overcome the world."
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour is coming, and is now come, that you shall be
scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not
alone, because the Father is with me.
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
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| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 01:29:30 AM |
|
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"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137565374.674547.44470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
All this goes back to your "obvious" lack of observation of the nature of
prophecy.
You won't answer the questions, because the questions prove you wrong.
Following your "obvious" logic, nothing the Old Testament prophets said had
anything to do with Jesus Christ: It is "obvious" that Nathan was talking
about Solomon, and it is "obvious" that Isaiah was talking about a kid named
Emmanuel, and it is "obvious" that Haggai was talking about the high priest
Zerub-bable, and it is "obvious" that they were not talking about Jesus
Christ.
Hence, following your "obvious" logic, it is "obvious" that Jesus can't be
the Messiah, for, according to you, only the "obvious" context of a prophecy
applies.
Or could it be that you are wrong?
Maybe it is "obvious" that the prophets specifically said they were not
speaking "obviously" about anything, but about "an" end, and "the" end.
And maybe it was "obvious" to a man from Ethiopia that Isaiah was speaking
of two things at once, as do all the prophets.
And maybe it is "obvious" that Jesus Himself pointed to His own dualism when
He used turns of phrase like "the time is coming, and is now."
And maybe your whole "obvious" interpretation of prophecy, putting your own
limits on what it says to the given context is "obviously" a lot of
horseshit, just as those you oppose go the other way cutting parts of
prophecy off to avoid the hard parts, just like you ignore it altogether to
avoid the hard parts.
This is the hypocrisy of preterism: You have to read the prophets
dualistically to come to the conclusion that Jesus is Messiah, but as soon
as Jesus says that He, too, is speaking dualistically, you stop your ears,
because you don't want to hear the hard parts.
You can ignore the basic premise of prophecy, and ignore the manner in which
the prophets speak all you want, but it doesn't change a thing: You're
approach to prophecy is as screwed up and unscriptural as theirs is.
You can't read it until you read it like the prophets said it, and the
prophets said "reiterate."
And Jesus is the guy who told them to do it.
Ike
P.S. Sure everything is going to "be alright" for those who believe. That
still doesn't change the fact that we're all going through the fire, like it
or not.
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
.
|
|
|
| User: "Flowerchild8245" |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 02:07:58 AM |
|
|
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137565374.674547.44470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
All this goes back to your "obvious" lack of observation of the nature of
prophecy.
You won't answer the questions, because the questions prove you wrong.
Following your "obvious" logic, nothing the Old Testament prophets said had
anything to do with Jesus Christ: It is "obvious" that Nathan was talking
about Solomon, and it is "obvious" that Isaiah was talking about a kid named
Emmanuel, and it is "obvious" that Haggai was talking about the high priest
Zerub-bable, and it is "obvious" that they were not talking about Jesus
Christ.
Hence, following your "obvious" logic, it is "obvious" that Jesus can't be
the Messiah, for, according to you, only the "obvious" context of a prophecy
applies.
Or could it be that you are wrong?
Maybe it is "obvious" that the prophets specifically said they were not
speaking "obviously" about anything, but about "an" end, and "the" end.
And maybe it was "obvious" to a man from Ethiopia that Isaiah was speaking
of two things at once, as do all the prophets.
And maybe it is "obvious" that Jesus Himself pointed to His own dualism when
He used turns of phrase like "the time is coming, and is now."
And maybe your whole "obvious" interpretation of prophecy, putting your own
limits on what it says to the given context is "obviously" a lot of
horseshit, just as those you oppose go the other way cutting parts of
prophecy off to avoid the hard parts, just like you ignore it altogether to
avoid the hard parts.
This is the hypocrisy of preterism: You have to read the prophets
dualistically to come to the conclusion that Jesus is Messiah, but as soon
as Jesus says that He, too, is speaking dualistically, you stop your ears,
because you don't want to hear the hard parts.
You can ignore the basic premise of prophecy, and ignore the manner in which
the prophets speak all you want, but it doesn't change a thing: You're
approach to prophecy is as screwed up and unscriptural as theirs is.
You can't read it until you read it like the prophets said it, and the
prophets said "reiterate."
And Jesus is the guy who told them to do it.
Ike
P.S. Sure everything is going to "be alright" for those who believe. That
still doesn't change the fact that we're all going through the fire, like it
or not.
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
The Prophets of the Old Testament did record prophecy of the coming of
the LORD Jesus into Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of many prophecies being
fullfilled through Him.
Summary:
Hundreds of years before Jesus was born, the Old Testament revealed
this:
-He would be of the tribe of Judah ( Gen. 49:9,10 )
-He would be born in Bethleham ( Mic. 5:2 )
-He would be born of a virgin ( Isa. 7:14 )
-He would be called out of Egypt ( Hos. 11:1 )
-He would come as a prophet ( Deut. 18:18, 19 )
-His own people would reject Him ( Isa. 53:3 )
-He would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem ( Zech. 9:9 )
-He would be betrayed and sold for thirty pieces of silver ( Zech.
11:12, 13 )
-He would be put to death by crucifixion ( Ps. 22 )
-His hands and feet would be pierced ( Ps. 22:16 )
-Soldiers would cast lots for his clothing ( Ps. 22:18 )
-He would be raised from the dead ( Ps. 16:9, 10 )
-He would ascend into heaven ( Ps. 68:18 )
It is Written:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
______
Psalms:
______
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
[NEW:]
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting
lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They
parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
--
[OLD:]
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and
fought against me without a cause.
[NEW:]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man
did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both
me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
--
[OLD]
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did
eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
[NEW]
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that
the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath
lifted up his heel against me.
--
[OLD]
Psa 55:12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could
have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself
against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
Psa 55:13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine
acquaintance.
Psa 55:14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of
God in company.
[NEW]
Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been
fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before
concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[NEW]
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but
the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
--
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
[NEW:]
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead
already, they broke not his legs:
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and
forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and
he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be
fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on him
whom they pierced.
--
[OLD:]
Psa 80:8-9 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out
the heathen, and planted it. Thou preparedst room before it, and didst
cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.
[OLDer:]
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son
out of Egypt.
[NEW:]
Mat 2:13-15 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord
appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child
and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring
thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he
arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed
into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be
fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of
Egypt have I called my son.
--
And His LAST WORDS were even a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy:
[OLD:]
Psa 22:1 (To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of
David.) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far
from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
[NEW:]
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my
God, why hast thou forsaken me?
_______
Jeremiah:
_______
[OLD:]
Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation,
and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be
comforted for her children, because they were not.
[NEW:]
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men,
was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that
were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old
and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of
the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the
prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 "In Ramah was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping,
and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be
comforted, because they are not".
_____
Isaiah:
_____
[OLD:]
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he
shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his
soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he
bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
[NEW:]
It is Written:
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is
at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me
not: but the Scriptures must be fulfilled.
Mar 15:28 And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was
numbered with the transgressors.
--
[OLD:]
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul
delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth
judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be
heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall
he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set
judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
[NEW:]
Mat 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him,
how they might destroy him.
Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and
great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mat 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the
prophet, saying,
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom
my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall
shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mat 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his
voice in the streets.
Mat 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he
not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
--
[OLD:]
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a
virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name
Immanuel.
[NEW:]
Mat 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be
with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
--
[OLD:]
Isa 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her
vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun
and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her
by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
[NEW:]
Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is
upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulun and Naphtali:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the
prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 "The land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of
the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them
which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up".
--
[OLD:]
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his
presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and
he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
[NEW:]
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the
prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
--
[OLD:]
Isa 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
Isa 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I
sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S
servant?
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears,
but he heareth not.
[NEW:]
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing
see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith,
"By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye
shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they
should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal
them".
--
[OLD:]
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and
a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of
wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit
of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the
LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither
reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove
with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth
with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he
slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and
faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
[NEW:]
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as
his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and
stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet
Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it
was written,
Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed
me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord".
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister,
and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were
fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture
fulfilled in your ears.
--
[OLD:]
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the
LORD revealed?
[NEW:]
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they
believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled,
which he spake, "Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath
the arm of the Lord been revealed"?
--
[OLD:]
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears,
but he heareth not.
[NEW:]
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said
again,
Joh 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that
they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart,
and be converted, and I should heal them"
--
[OLD:]
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for
a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure
foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
[NEW:]
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, "Behold, I
lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that
believeth on him shall not be confounded".
________
Zechariah:
________
[OLD:]
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of
Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having
salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *****, and upon a colt the foal of
an *****.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse
from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak
peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
[NEW:]
Joh 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast,
when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
Joh 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and
cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name
of the Lord.
Joh 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young *****, sat thereon; as it
is written,
Joh 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting
on an *****'s colt.
Joh 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but
when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were
written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
--
[OLD:]
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the
inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn
for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness
for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as
the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
[NEW:]
Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and
of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead
already, they brake not his legs:
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and
forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and
he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be
fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him
whom they pierced.
--
[OLD:]
Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of
David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of
hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and
they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets
and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that
is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the
sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little
ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the
LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall
be left therein.
[NEW:]
Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount
of Olives.
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because
of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the
sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into
Galilee.
--
[OLD:]
Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of
the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and
the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul
lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it
die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the
rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I
might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock
that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price;
and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of
silver.
Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly
price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of
silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
[NEW:]
Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is
not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price
of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's
field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this
day.
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the
prophet, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price
of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed
me".
____________________________
Another Fulfilled scripture to consider:
[OLD:]
*Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the
way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his
temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold,
he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
[NEW:]
*Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my
messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women
there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding
he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom
of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to
come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the
scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall
first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they
knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise
shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of
John the Baptist.
--
So after seeing how many prophecies were fulfilled by Christ, why did
the chief rulers not confess that Jesus was the Son of God ?
Joh 12:41 These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of
him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on
him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they
should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 02:58:22 AM |
|
|
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137571678.364439.103040@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137565374.674547.44470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
All this goes back to your "obvious" lack of observation of the nature of
prophecy.
You won't answer the questions, because the questions prove you wrong.
Following your "obvious" logic, nothing the Old Testament prophets said
had
anything to do with Jesus Christ: It is "obvious" that Nathan was talking
about Solomon, and it is "obvious" that Isaiah was talking about a kid
named
Emmanuel, and it is "obvious" that Haggai was talking about the high
priest
Zerub-bable, and it is "obvious" that they were not talking about Jesus
Christ.
Hence, following your "obvious" logic, it is "obvious" that Jesus can't
be
the Messiah, for, according to you, only the "obvious" context of a
prophecy
applies.
Or could it be that you are wrong?
Maybe it is "obvious" that the prophets specifically said they were not
speaking "obviously" about anything, but about "an" end, and "the" end.
And maybe it was "obvious" to a man from Ethiopia that Isaiah was
speaking
of two things at once, as do all the prophets.
And maybe it is "obvious" that Jesus Himself pointed to His own dualism
when
He used turns of phrase like "the time is coming, and is now."
And maybe your whole "obvious" interpretation of prophecy, putting your
own
limits on what it says to the given context is "obviously" a lot of
horseshit, just as those you oppose go the other way cutting parts of
prophecy off to avoid the hard parts, just like you ignore it altogether
to
avoid the hard parts.
This is the hypocrisy of preterism: You have to read the prophets
dualistically to come to the conclusion that Jesus is Messiah, but as
soon
as Jesus says that He, too, is speaking dualistically, you stop your
ears,
because you don't want to hear the hard parts.
You can ignore the basic premise of prophecy, and ignore the manner in
which
the prophets speak all you want, but it doesn't change a thing: You're
approach to prophecy is as screwed up and unscriptural as theirs is.
You can't read it until you read it like the prophets said it, and the
prophets said "reiterate."
And Jesus is the guy who told them to do it.
Ike
P.S. Sure everything is going to "be alright" for those who believe. That
still doesn't change the fact that we're all going through the fire, like
it
or not.
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation"
is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in
Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
The Prophets of the Old Testament did record prophecy of the coming of
the LORD Jesus into Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of many prophecies being
fullfilled through Him.
Summary:
Hundreds of years before Jesus was born, the Old Testament revealed
this:
-He would be of the tribe of Judah ( Gen. 49:9,10 )
-He would be born in Bethleham ( Mic. 5:2 )
-He would be born of a virgin ( Isa. 7:14 )
-He would be called out of Egypt ( Hos. 11:1 )
-He would come as a prophet ( Deut. 18:18, 19 )
-His own people would reject Him ( Isa. 53:3 )
-He would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem ( Zech. 9:9 )
-He would be betrayed and sold for thirty pieces of silver ( Zech.
11:12, 13 )
-He would be put to death by crucifixion ( Ps. 22 )
-His hands and feet would be pierced ( Ps. 22:16 )
-Soldiers would cast lots for his clothing ( Ps. 22:18 )
-He would be raised from the dead ( Ps. 16:9, 10 )
-He would ascend into heaven ( Ps. 68:18 )
You're still missing the point.
All these prophecies had an Old Testament context. They didn't exist in
isolation. You can't lift the prophecies out of their original context and
ignore the history.
It is Written:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Right. But for anyone to prove that Jesus is Christ from the Old Testament
prophecies, one has to read the prophecies dualistically as you are about to
help me demonstrate:
______
Psalms:
______
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
Written by David when Saul was hounding him in the wilderness.
[NEW:]
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting
lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They
parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
In reference to that written by Isaiah after God told him to take a garment,
and "mar its figure," and bury it in the ground, then present it to the
elders.
[OLD:]
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and
fought against me without a cause.
Also written by David when he was hounded by Saul in the wilderness.
[NEW:]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man
did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both
me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
You're not proving anything. I already know that these prophecies had their
fulfillment in Jesus. What you are missing is that they had their
fulfillment (albeit limited) in their original context of the times in which
the prophets gave them.
[OLD]
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did
eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Written by David in the context of his friend Abner taking Saul's concubine
to bed in a legalistic attempt to take the kingdom away from David.
[NEW]
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that
the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath
lifted up his heel against me.
And there is the dualism.
[snip]
You can quote verse without end and all I have to do is go back and get the
historical context in which the prophecy was originally written.
Like I said, I already know that these prophecies were actually about Jesus.
What you don't seem to know is that they were all originally written about
something else in the history of Israel.
And that brings us to dualism.
Ike
www.eickleberrybooks.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Flowerchild8245" |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 03:44:18 AM |
|
|
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137571678.364439.103040@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137565374.674547.44470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
All this goes back to your "obvious" lack of observation of the nature of
prophecy.
You won't answer the questions, because the questions prove you wrong.
Following your "obvious" logic, nothing the Old Testament prophets said
had
anything to do with Jesus Christ: It is "obvious" that Nathan was talking
about Solomon, and it is "obvious" that Isaiah was talking about a kid
named
Emmanuel, and it is "obvious" that Haggai was talking about the high
priest
Zerub-bable, and it is "obvious" that they were not talking about Jesus
Christ.
Hence, following your "obvious" logic, it is "obvious" that Jesus can't
be
the Messiah, for, according to you, only the "obvious" context of a
prophecy
applies.
Or could it be that you are wrong?
Maybe it is "obvious" that the prophets specifically said they were not
speaking "obviously" about anything, but about "an" end, and "the" end.
And maybe it was "obvious" to a man from Ethiopia that Isaiah was
speaking
of two things at once, as do all the prophets.
And maybe it is "obvious" that Jesus Himself pointed to His own dualism
when
He used turns of phrase like "the time is coming, and is now."
And maybe your whole "obvious" interpretation of prophecy, putting your
own
limits on what it says to the given context is "obviously" a lot of
horseshit, just as those you oppose go the other way cutting parts of
prophecy off to avoid the hard parts, just like you ignore it altogether
to
avoid the hard parts.
This is the hypocrisy of preterism: You have to read the prophets
dualistically to come to the conclusion that Jesus is Messiah, but as
soon
as Jesus says that He, too, is speaking dualistically, you stop your
ears,
because you don't want to hear the hard parts.
You can ignore the basic premise of prophecy, and ignore the manner in
which
the prophets speak all you want, but it doesn't change a thing: You're
approach to prophecy is as screwed up and unscriptural as theirs is.
You can't read it until you read it like the prophets said it, and the
prophets said "reiterate."
And Jesus is the guy who told them to do it.
Ike
P.S. Sure everything is going to "be alright" for those who believe. That
still doesn't change the fact that we're all going through the fire, like
it
or not.
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation"
is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in
Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
The Prophets of the Old Testament did record prophecy of the coming of
the LORD Jesus into Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of many prophecies being
fullfilled through Him.
Summary:
Hundreds of years before Jesus was born, the Old Testament revealed
this:
-He would be of the tribe of Judah ( Gen. 49:9,10 )
-He would be born in Bethleham ( Mic. 5:2 )
-He would be born of a virgin ( Isa. 7:14 )
-He would be called out of Egypt ( Hos. 11:1 )
-He would come as a prophet ( Deut. 18:18, 19 )
-His own people would reject Him ( Isa. 53:3 )
-He would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem ( Zech. 9:9 )
-He would be betrayed and sold for thirty pieces of silver ( Zech.
11:12, 13 )
-He would be put to death by crucifixion ( Ps. 22 )
-His hands and feet would be pierced ( Ps. 22:16 )
-Soldiers would cast lots for his clothing ( Ps. 22:18 )
-He would be raised from the dead ( Ps. 16:9, 10 )
-He would ascend into heaven ( Ps. 68:18 )
You're still missing the point.
All these prophecies had an Old Testament context. They didn't exist in
isolation. You can't lift the prophecies out of their original context and
ignore the history.
It is Written:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Right. But for anyone to prove that Jesus is Christ from the Old Testament
prophecies, one has to read the prophecies dualistically as you are about to
help me demonstrate:
______
Psalms:
______
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
Written by David when Saul was hounding him in the wilderness.
* David's hands and feet were not pierced.
( *Below I will just point out the differences, how it did not pertain
100% to anyone at the time it was written, only a future fulfillment
was 100% fulfillment.)
This is where I do not agree. Each time you say it was pertaining to
someone in the time it was written, but each time it did not pertain to
them 100%. Sure, there were "hints" of what was to come, of the
Messiah, but not fulfillments of what was to come. Events in the life
of Moses were a "likeness" of Christ, and also Jonah, and
Malchizidek...but not fulfilled what was written pertaining to the
Messiah.
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
[NEW:]
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting
lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They
parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
In reference to that written by Isaiah after God told him to take a garment,
and "mar its figure," and bury it in the ground, then present it to the
elders.
*The did not pierce his hands and feet, they did not part the garment
among them, or cast lots upon the vestaure.
[OLD:]
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and
fought against me without a cause.
Also written by David when he was hounded by Saul in the wilderness.
But a reflection, not a fulfillment.
[NEW:]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man
did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both
me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
You're not proving anything. I already know that these prophecies had their
fulfillment in Jesus. What you are missing is that they had their
fulfillment (albeit limited) in their original context of the times in which
the prophets gave them.
[OLD]
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did
eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Written by David in the context of his friend Abner taking Saul's concubine
to bed in a legalistic attempt to take the kingdom away from David.
[NEW]
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that
the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath
lifted up his heel against me.
And there is the dualism.
When I see "fulfilled", I'd say it was fulfilled.
[snip]
You can quote verse without end and all I have to do is go back and get the
historical context in which the prophecy was originally written.
Like I said, I already know that these prophecies were actually about Jesus.
What you don't seem to know is that they were all originally written about
something else in the history of Israel.
And that brings us to dualism.
I see it not as dualism, but a likeness of what was to come. For it to
be "dualism", they have to be exactly alike, 100% fulfillments twice.
That NEVER happens, a true fulfillment is once...done deal as I see it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "H.E. Eickleberry, Jr." |
|
| Title: Re: The issue of avoidance |
18 Jan 2006 04:07:27 AM |
|
|
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137577458.321467.205820@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137571678.364439.103040@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
H.E. Eickleberry, Jr. wrote:
"Flowerchild8245" <shaqad@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1137565374.674547.44470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Talk about avoidance, you avoid the refreshing rain of truth as if
it
is acid. Rejoice, the Lord has risen! Everything is going to be
allright.
All this goes back to your "obvious" lack of observation of the nature
of
prophecy.
You won't answer the questions, because the questions prove you wrong.
Following your "obvious" logic, nothing the Old Testament prophets
said
had
anything to do with Jesus Christ: It is "obvious" that Nathan was
talking
about Solomon, and it is "obvious" that Isaiah was talking about a kid
named
Emmanuel, and it is "obvious" that Haggai was talking about the high
priest
Zerub-bable, and it is "obvious" that they were not talking about
Jesus
Christ.
Hence, following your "obvious" logic, it is "obvious" that Jesus
can't
be
the Messiah, for, according to you, only the "obvious" context of a
prophecy
applies.
Or could it be that you are wrong?
Maybe it is "obvious" that the prophets specifically said they were
not
speaking "obviously" about anything, but about "an" end, and "the"
end.
And maybe it was "obvious" to a man from Ethiopia that Isaiah was
speaking
of two things at once, as do all the prophets.
And maybe it is "obvious" that Jesus Himself pointed to His own
dualism
when
He used turns of phrase like "the time is coming, and is now."
And maybe your whole "obvious" interpretation of prophecy, putting
your
own
limits on what it says to the given context is "obviously" a lot of
horseshit, just as those you oppose go the other way cutting parts of
prophecy off to avoid the hard parts, just like you ignore it
altogether
to
avoid the hard parts.
This is the hypocrisy of preterism: You have to read the prophets
dualistically to come to the conclusion that Jesus is Messiah, but as
soon
as Jesus says that He, too, is speaking dualistically, you stop your
ears,
because you don't want to hear the hard parts.
You can ignore the basic premise of prophecy, and ignore the manner in
which
the prophets speak all you want, but it doesn't change a thing: You're
approach to prophecy is as screwed up and unscriptural as theirs is.
You can't read it until you read it like the prophets said it, and the
prophets said "reiterate."
And Jesus is the guy who told them to do it.
Ike
P.S. Sure everything is going to "be alright" for those who believe.
That
still doesn't change the fact that we're all going through the fire,
like
it
or not.
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after
them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in
Revelation"
is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in
Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
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The Prophets of the Old Testament did record prophecy of the coming of
the LORD Jesus into Jerusalem. Jesus spoke of many prophecies being
fullfilled through Him.
Summary:
Hundreds of years before Jesus was born, the Old Testament revealed
this:
-He would be of the tribe of Judah ( Gen. 49:9,10 )
-He would be born in Bethleham ( Mic. 5:2 )
-He would be born of a virgin ( Isa. 7:14 )
-He would be called out of Egypt ( Hos. 11:1 )
-He would come as a prophet ( Deut. 18:18, 19 )
-His own people would reject Him ( Isa. 53:3 )
-He would make a triumphal entry into Jerusalem ( Zech. 9:9 )
-He would be betrayed and sold for thirty pieces of silver ( Zech.
11:12, 13 )
-He would be put to death by crucifixion ( Ps. 22 )
-His hands and feet would be pierced ( Ps. 22:16 )
-Soldiers would cast lots for his clothing ( Ps. 22:18 )
-He would be raised from the dead ( Ps. 16:9, 10 )
-He would ascend into heaven ( Ps. 68:18 )
You're still missing the point.
All these prophecies had an Old Testament context. They didn't exist in
isolation. You can't lift the prophecies out of their original context
and
ignore the history.
It is Written:
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe
all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded
unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Right. But for anyone to prove that Jesus is Christ from the Old
Testament
prophecies, one has to read the prophecies dualistically as you are about
to
help me demonstrate:
______
Psalms:
______
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
Written by David when Saul was hounding him in the wilderness.
* David's hands and feet were not pierced.
( *Below I will just point out the differences, how it did not pertain
100% to anyone at the time it was written, only a future fulfillment
was 100% fulfillment.)
Doesn't matter.
It wasn't the "perfect" iteration to begin with.
But the context of the prophecy, as originally given, was historical.
This is where I do not agree. Each time you say it was pertaining to
someone in the time it was written, but each time it did not pertain to
them 100%.
It's not supposed to.
The historical context was only a pretext, a shadow of things to come.
For instance, as Paul says, the temple on earth was only a "shadow" of
things to come, i.e. only a representative image of the real temple, the
heavenly Jerusalem.
That doesn't change the fact that the temple prophecies were about literal
temples in the history of Israel, and an abominable one to come.
Sure, there were "hints" of what was to come, of the
Messiah, but not fulfillments of what was to come. Events in the life
of Moses were a "likeness" of Christ, and also Jonah, and
Malchizidek...but not fulfilled what was written pertaining to the
Messiah.
Oh, they were fulfillments, but they were not fulfillments.
Doesn't change the fact that Jesus' present was written in Israel's history.
[OLD:]
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have
inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my
vesture.
[NEW:]
Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting
lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They
parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
In reference to that written by Isaiah after God told him to take a
garment,
and "mar its figure," and bury it in the ground, then present it to the
elders.
*The did not pierce his hands and feet, they did not part the garment
among them, or cast lots upon the vestaure.
Which is just part of the difference between the imagery and fulfillment.
[OLD:]
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and
fought against me without a cause.
Also written by David when he was hounded by Saul in the wilderness.
But a reflection, not a fulfillment.
It's still the original context.
To go beyond that, you have to read it dualistically.
[NEW:]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man
did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both
me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
You're not proving anything. I already know that these prophecies had
their
fulfillment in Jesus. What you are missing is that they had their
fulfillment (albeit limited) in their original context of the times in
which
the prophets gave them.
[OLD]
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did
eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Written by David in the context of his friend Abner taking Saul's
concubine
to bed in a legalistic attempt to take the kingdom away from David.
[NEW]
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that
the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath
lifted up his heel against me.
And there is the dualism.
When I see "fulfilled", I'd say it was fulfilled.
Now you're being legalistic.
For all David knew, He was pleading his case to God.
In all likelihood, he had no idea he was predicting the future.
[snip]
You can quote verse without end and all I have to do is go back and get
the
historical context in which the prophecy was originally written.
Like I said, I already know that these prophecies were actually about
Jesus.
What you don't seem to know is that they were all originally written
about
something else in the history of Israel.
And that brings us to dualism.
I see it not as dualism, but a likeness of what was to come. For it to
be "dualism", they have to be exactly alike, 100% fulfillments twice.
That NEVER happens, a true fulfillment is once...done deal as I see it.
None of it has been "100%" at all.
That's why Jesus takes up the refrain of the prophets--"For the time is
coming, and now is...,"--and then discusses things like the resurrection
past and future, or the persecution of the saints past and future, or the
destruction of the temple past and future.
Jesus' voice is the same as the prophets who came before Him.
In fact, Jesus' voice IS the voice of the prophets.
P.S.
Consider this: In the Jewish calendar, there are three "kinds" or "types" of
years with two variations to establish 19 years in a cycle.
If Kislev and Heshvan both only have 29 days, the year is "deficient," or
short.
If Kislev and Heshvan both have 30 days, the year is "excessive," or too
long.
If Kislev has 29 days and Heshvan has 30 days, the is "regular."
I'll let you in a little secret: This is also the pattern of prophecy.
Ike
--
"Many shall come saying...'The time draws near:' Go ye not after them."
******************************
"The Character Map: An Introduction to the Introductions in Revelation" is
now available in hardcover, softcover, and ebook editions.
For a synopsis, author bio, an explanation of the real "code" in Revelation,
an excerpt, and links to major sales sites, visit
www.eickleberrybooks.com
******************************
Remove X from address to reply
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