| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Raktizer Omheit" |
| Date: |
27 Oct 2004 07:35:22 PM |
| Object: |
The Nature of Purgatory? |
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 : 10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [ see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore, only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
Fire in hell cannot save a person's soul, but fire from heaven's altar [
Revelation 8 : 5 ] can. How else do we explain I Corinthians 3 : 10 - 15?
The saints who are dead will be resurrected [ Revelation 20 : 4 ], and will
live and reign with Jesus Christ for a thousand years [ Revelation 20 : 5 ],
and will not have to fear the second death. The rest of the dead will not be
resurrected until the 1000 years are over [ Revelation 20 : 6 ]. The dead
who will be resurrected after the 1000 years are over will be judged, and
those who have done evil will be thrown into the lake of fire [ Revelation
20 : 12 - 15 ]. Death and Hades [ Purgatory ] will then be thrown into the
lake of fire [ eternal Hell ], according to Revelation 20 : 14. This is the
second death. Satan will be bound for a thousand years in the bottomless pit
or Abyss [ another name for Hades or Purgatory ], according to Revelation 20
: 1 - 3 and Revelation 20 : 7, before he is let loose to gather those people
released from Hades after the 1000 years are finished, and who refuse to
repent but blast their second chance at salvation by joining Satan in his
planned attack on the city of Jesus's saints, but only to be devoured by
fire that will come down from God out of heaven [ Revelation 20 : 7 - 9 ].
However, not all of the people who are released after the 1000 years will
join in the attack on the city of Jesus's saints, that is, on those people
who were resurrected from the dead at the beginning of the 1000 years, and
those people who refuse to join the attack will be saved from the second
death. Satan will be thrown after his defeat into the lake of fire and
brimstone, that is, eternal hell [ Revelation 20 : 10 ], where the
antichrist and the false prophet already are, having been there since their
defeat at the Battle of Armageddon [ Revelation 19 : 20 ], while their human
followers and army of Satan's fallen angels are sent instead to the quite
distinct bottomless pit, Abyss, Hades, or Purgatory [ see Revelation 19 :
21, Revelation 12 : 7 - 9, and Jude verse 6 ].
The 1000 year purification process of purgatory is very painful for their
inmates. According to 1 Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56 in the New King James
Version of the Bible, it is said "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades,
where is your victory?" The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin
is the law. When the bottomless pit is opened, the fallen angels led by the
fallen angel Abaddon or Apollyon will torment those humans who do not have
the seal of God on their foreheads for five months, and their sting will be
like that of the scorpion, and the unsealed humans will try to find death,
but death will flee from them [ See Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 ].
According to St. Paul's teaching in Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10, from the gift of
God's grace, good works flow. II Timothy 3 : 16 - 17 says that all of the
Bible is inspired by God. God wants everyone to be saved according to I
Timothy 2 : 1 - 4 and II Peter 3 : 9, so free will does exist, although God
does know what the future is, according to the Acts of the Apostles 15 : 18,
including what choices people will make. Repenting out of fear or attrition
is acceptable according to Proverbs 13 : 13, Proverbs 14 : 26 - 27, and
Proverbs 19 : 23 in the Old Testament, but repenting out of genuine sorrow
or contrition is even better. According to I Corinthians 13 : 9 - 13 and
Philippians 3 : 12 - 14, no one is perfect until they get to heaven.
According to Mark 10 : 27 nothing is impossible with God, and therefore a
person in purgatory could be enabled by God to pay off all his pennies or
mites mentioned in Matthew 5 : 25 - 26 and Luke 12 : 58 - 59. Luke 12 : 47 -
48 says that he who commits a sin in ignorance will be beaten with less
stripes than he who commits a sin in knowledge. Jesus Christ told His
disciples in John 20 : 19 - 23 that if they forgive people their sins, they
are forgiven, and if they retain their sins, they are retained. According to
Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, if we do not forgive the sins of others, neither will
God forgive us our sins. Anyone can say I forgive you, and not mean it, and
this does not count as sincere forgiveness [ see Matthew 18 : 35 in the New
King James Version of the Bible, which says : "So My heavenly Father also
will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother
his trespasses." ]. Luke 17 : 3 - 4 says that if someone asks for our
forgiveness seven times in one day, we should grant that person's request.
According to II Timothy 3 : 16, all of the Bible is relevant. King David
said, according to the Acts of the Apostles 2 : 27 this : "For You [
Yahweh ] will not leave my soul in Hades [ Purgatory ], nor will You allow
Your Holy One [ Jesus Christ ] to see corruption." St. Peter the Apostle
said in Acts 2 : 29: "Men and brethren, let me speek freely to you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to
this day." However, shortly after Jesus Christ's death on the cross, the
bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and they appeared
walking into Jerusalem to many people after the resurrection of Jesus Christ
[ see Matthew 27 : 50 - 54 ]. King David was not among the resurrected, as
his turn is yet to come, according to the first and second deaths of
Revelation ch.20. However, King David knows that he will one day be saved
[ see The Acts of the Apostles 2 : 25 - 27 ]. Jesus Christ when He was on
earth was the God Yahweh Himself in the body of a man [ see John 1 : 1 -
5 ]. St. Peter the Apostle said in Acts 2 : 24 this : "Whom [ i.e. Jesus
Christ ] God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not
possible that He should be held by it." St. Paul said in Romans 10 : 6 - 7
the following: 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not
say in your heart 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " ( that is, to bring
Christ down from above ) 7 Or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss [
Purgatory, Hades, Sheol, or the bottomless pit? ] ' " ( that is, to bring
Christ up from the dead ). Hades, or Purgatory, is a painful place according
to I Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, which says, 55"O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the
strength of sin is the law. Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 says that when the
bottomless pit is opened after the fifth angel sounds the trumpet, and a
star [ angel ] falls from heaven to earth to open the pit [ also known as
the abyss, purgatory, Sheol, or Hades ], the fallen angel Abaddon, also
known as Apollyon, who is the king of the bottomless pit, will lead his army
of fallen angels, and they will sting like scorpions those men who do not
have the seal of God on their foreheads for five months, and that these
unsealed men will seek death, but death will flee from them.
After the Battle of Armageddon, only the antichrist and the false prophet
will be thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone [
Revelation 19 : 20 ]. Satan the dragon, that serpent of old who is the
Devil, in other words a fallen angel [ see Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ], will be
thrown into the bottomless pit by the angel who came down from heaven and
has the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, and Satan
will be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years [ Revelation 20 :
1 - 3 , and The Epistle of Jude verse 6 ]. After Satan's release and final
defeat, he will then be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the
beast and the false prophet have already been since the Battle of Armageddon
[ see Revelation 20 : 10 ]. Those who are resurrected after the 1000 years
[ see Revelation 20 : 5 ], that is, the second resurrection, will be judged,
and those who are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into
the lake of fire [ see Revelation 20 : 12 - 15 ]. Death and Hades [
Purgatory ] will be cast into the lake of fire [ Hell ], which is the second
death [ see Revelation 20 : 14 ].
Matthew 27 : 52 mentions the sleeping saints prior to the resurrection of
Jesus Christ. In the Acts of the Apostles 2 : 24 it is said that Jesus
Christ could not be held by the pains of death. How can anyone be aware of
pain without being conscious, but being asleep? Jesus Christ, who was
without sin, bore the sins of the world for the sake of fallen mankind, who
had lost their innocence and immortality in the Garden of Eden when tempted
by Satan the fallen angel, disguised as a snake [ see Revelation 12 : 7 -
9 ]. King David knows that his soul will not be left in Hades [ Purgatory ],
according to Acts 2 : 27.
Matthew 18 : 35 says that if you do not forgive someone their sins from your
heart, in other words sincerely, neither will God forgive you your sins.
Matthew 6 : 14 - 15 says that if you forgive the sins of others, you are
forgiven your sins by God, and if you do not forgive the sins of others,
neither will God forgive you your sins. If you do not believe in the saving
and purifying fires of purgatory mentioned in I Corinthians 3 : 10 - 15, and
the purifying fire that proceeds forth from heaven's altar [ Revelation 8 :
5 ], how can you expect to escape from the fires of hell? How many people
have told you that they forgive you your sins, but did not really mean it in
their hearts?
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 18 : 35 that if you do not SINCERELY forgive
your brother his trespasses, you will also go to purgatory. How many times
have you said that you forgive people their sins, but did not really mean
it? Do you have any way of knowing how many people have told you that they
forgive you your sins, but did not really mean it, unless of course, you
have some kind of telepathic ability to read peoples' minds? This is what
Matthew 18 : 35 in the New King James Version says in full : "So My heavenly
Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive
his brother his trespasses." Any one can say I forgive you, and not really
mean it, and this does not count as forgiveness, but indeed counts as the
sin of lying. You should read Matthew 18 : 21 - 35 in full to understand the
importance of sincere forgiveness. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 6 : 14 - 15
that if you forgive people their sins, God will forgive you your sins, and
if you do not forgive people their sins, neither will God forgive you your
sins. Jesus Christ said in John 20 : 19 - 23 to His disciples that if they
forgive people their sins, they are forgiven, and if they retain peoples'
sins, they are retained. Although you may probably forgive people their sins
genuinely, other people might only have paid lip service when they said that
they forgive you your sins, in order not to hurt your feelings, but did not
really mean what they said. In such a case, both you and the persons who are
insincere are in serious danger of going to purgatory, because of Matthew 18
: 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and John 20 : 19 - 23. As for a daily log of the
sins of fallen mankind kept by God, I think that we can both agree that God,
who is perfect, remembers, knows, and understands everything.
I remember reading in 1994 an article called "Children of the Light" in a
newspaper where it was written that children who have undergone near death
experiences have been carthatically forgiven by experiencing their victim's
feelings through the eyes of their victims, and that such feelings, although
painful, have led to a genuine feeling of repentance in the consciences of
the sinners, which thereby helped to bring about the commencement of genuine
forgiveness. Psalm 50 : 21 - 23 might refer to this near death experience.
Revelation 20 : 13 - 15 says that one day Death and Hades will be thrown
into the lake of fire [ eternal Hell ]. Hades [ Purgatory ] also known as
the bottomless pit or abyss, is quite distinct and separate from the lake of
fire and brimstone [ eternal hell ]. David said that his soul will not be
left in Hades, according to The Acts of the Apostles, ch.2 : 25 - 27. It is
said that Death and Hades will one day be thrown into the lake of fire and
brimstone [ Revelation 20 : 13 - 15 ], and after Hades has given up all its
dead.
St. Paul said in Romans 10 : 7 that Jesus Christ descended into the abyss
[ the land of the dead ]. If you read The Acts of the Apostles 2 : 22 - 36,
David is glad that his soul will not be left in Hades, and that neither will
the soul of Jesus be left in Hades, and that Jesus's body will not see
corruption in Hades. When St. Peter spoke these words, the resurrection of
the saints who had fallen asleep had already occurred on the third day after
Jesus was crucified, i.e., on the day that Jesus had risen from his grave,
[ see Matthew 27 : 50 - 54 ], and after Jesus had ascended to heaven, and
after Pentecost [ see The Acts of the Apostles chs.1-2 ]. And yet, St. Peter
said that David's tomb and David's body in that tomb still remained as he
spoke [ see Acts 2 : 29 ]. Jesus Christ's stay in the land of the dead was
quite painful [ see Acts 2 : 24 ], so Jesus's soul was quite aware of His
surroundings during the three days that He spent in the land of the dead,
which for Jesus might have been felt to be three thousand years. II Peter 3
: 8 says that with God one day is as if it is one thousand years with God,
and a thousand years as if it is one day with God. Hades, also known as the
abyss or the bottomless pit, is quite painful and distinct from eternal
hell, also known as the lake of fire and brimstone [ see I Corinthians 15 :
55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12, Jude verse 6, Revelation 12 : 7 - 9, and
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ].
What about those whose moral responsibility is diminished because they
suffer from genetic defects and subconscious fears which Satan takes
advantage of? Even if someone who has a mental illness, for example someone
with a sociopathic tendency towards criminal behavior, has also got 100%
faith that Jesus Christ has the power to cure him or her, Jesus Christ might
not decide to heal them because He wants them to wait until they reach
Heaven to be 100% perfect. However, we must try 100% to be as good as we can
in this life.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
28 Oct 2004 05:59:04 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 : 10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [ see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore, only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
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| User: "Raktizer Omheit" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
28 Oct 2004 06:57:16 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 : 10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore, only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
29 Oct 2004 06:03:12 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 : 10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore, only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Raktizer Omheit" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
29 Oct 2004 07:46:15 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vm74o0lnl1jbt6fcle38kvej1k333rhqdd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 :
10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in
the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore,
only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of
fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 :
58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and
Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
"Yeah," whatever.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
29 Oct 2004 04:36:31 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:46:15 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vm74o0lnl1jbt6fcle38kvej1k333rhqdd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 :
10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in
the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore,
only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of
fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 :
58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and
Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
"Yeah," whatever.
Look at it this way. You are forgetting that people
are going to be judged on whether they accepted, or
rejected Christ while living here on Earth. Whether or
not their faith has saved them. Once dead, there is no
need for faith. If you're in purgatory, you KNOW it's
real. You know it was all true, no faith required.
Yet the Bible tells us...
"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH..."
- Ephesians 2:8
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Raktizer Omheit" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
29 Oct 2004 07:23:10 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pqc5o0d60aboesornkpig7qkvkdaeerdq9@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:46:15 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vm74o0lnl1jbt6fcle38kvej1k333rhqdd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 :
10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not
forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and
a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in
the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone
[
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does
not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore,
only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering
heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god
was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ,
although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death
do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ],
then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of
fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should
have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their
victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice
for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 :
58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and
Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
"Yeah," whatever.
Look at it this way. You are forgetting that people
are going to be judged on whether they accepted, or
rejected Christ while living here on Earth. Whether or
not their faith has saved them. Once dead, there is no
need for faith. If you're in purgatory, you KNOW it's
real. You know it was all true, no faith required.
Yet the Bible tells us...
"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH..."
- Ephesians 2:8
I do not wish to discuss the matter any further with you, because I also
have read the Bible, and I believe that on the balance of probability, my
interpretation is better than yours, although you are free to believe the
same for yourself.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
31 Oct 2004 12:08:56 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:23:10 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pqc5o0d60aboesornkpig7qkvkdaeerdq9@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:46:15 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vm74o0lnl1jbt6fcle38kvej1k333rhqdd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 -
20, I Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I
Corinthians 3 : 10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the
second chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits
of an early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the
second death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not
forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand
years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the
second death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who
died in the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and
brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever
does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist.
Therefore, only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering
heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky
god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ,
although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He
is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second
death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20
], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having
converted to Christianity before their deaths have no way of
avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we
should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals
who sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their
victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure
justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke
12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15,
and Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
"Yeah," whatever.
Look at it this way. You are forgetting that people
are going to be judged on whether they accepted, or
rejected Christ while living here on Earth. Whether or
not their faith has saved them. Once dead, there is no
need for faith. If you're in purgatory, you KNOW it's
real. You know it was all true, no faith required.
Yet the Bible tells us...
"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH..."
- Ephesians 2:8
I do not wish to discuss the matter any further with you, because I
also have read the Bible, and I believe that on the balance of
probability, my interpretation is better than yours, although you are
free to believe the same for yourself.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
--
± Pastor Dave ±
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee:
neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out
of my lips was right before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is
the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/}
@#####{]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\}
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
31 Oct 2004 08:27:05 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:23:10 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
Sorry for the tope post. Did you mean to respond?
Only a quote of the last one I sent came through, with
no additional words.
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pqc5o0d60aboesornkpig7qkvkdaeerdq9@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:46:15 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vm74o0lnl1jbt6fcle38kvej1k333rhqdd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:57:16 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 :
10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not
forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and
a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in
the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone
[
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does
not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore,
only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering
heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god
was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ,
although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death
do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ],
then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of
fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should
have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their
victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice
for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 :
58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and
Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
That is not what Revelation ch.20 says.
You've given us what YOU think it says and your human
reasoning as to why we should believe you. Yet the
Bible says nothing about purgatory and the Bible also
makes it clear that once we're dead, the judgment comes
and the very same chapter that you referenced states
that we are judged according to our works and those
works were done here on Earth. I think we can agree
that Hebrews 9:27 is a very clear statement. So, you
can either pit the Bible against itself and claim it is
contradictory, in which case, you can believe Rev 20 no
more than Heb 9:27, since who knows which would be
correct, or you can see if you have somehow
misinterpreted Rev 20.
Revelation 20 speaks of two deaths. This first one is
physical and the second one is the soul, after
judgment, should one not be in the Book of Life. As
Jesus said...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is
able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10:28
Man dies (physically) and then the judgment, where he
may die spiritually. So the writer of Hebrews is
simply saying that physically we die once and then our
eternal judgment comes later. Of course, now there is
no wait for it, since the resurrection has already
happened. But that's another subject. :) The point of
this discussion is that there is no repentance after
death. What has been done has been done and the
opportunity is gone. Everyone would repent if what you
claim were true and there would be no one cast into
Hell. Think about it. You're dead physically, you
know the judgment is coming, you're burning in the
flames of purgatory and yet, you will not repent?
Please. :) Rev 20:6 states that the second death has
no power over those who are part of the first
resurrection. That is because they are in the Book of
Life and that was determined already. The rest have a
real problem. Paul gives us an example of this...
"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those
women which laboured with me in the gospel, with
Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose
names are in the book of life." - Philippians 4:3
Now, when were their names in the Book of Life? While
they were still alive on Earth. Nowhere does the Bible
teach that we get another chance after physical death
and Rev 20 simply does not say anything about a second
chance to repent, nor can you show me those words
there.
In fact, the very same chapter that you mention, states
that those not found in the Book of Life were cast into
the lake of fire. So since we know that there will be
those who will be thrown into the lake of fire, you're
trying to tell me that these souls stood before God,
knowing they would be cast into the lake of fire, after
burning in purgatory for a while and still wouldn't
repent, just so Rev 20:15 could be fulfilled. I don't
think so. :)
"Yeah," whatever.
Look at it this way. You are forgetting that people
are going to be judged on whether they accepted, or
rejected Christ while living here on Earth. Whether or
not their faith has saved them. Once dead, there is no
need for faith. If you're in purgatory, you KNOW it's
real. You know it was all true, no faith required.
Yet the Bible tells us...
"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH..."
- Ephesians 2:8
I do not wish to discuss the matter any further with you, because I also
have read the Bible, and I believe that on the balance of probability, my
interpretation is better than yours, although you are free to believe the
same for yourself.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
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| User: "Dore" |
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| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
05 Nov 2004 06:15:00 PM |
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Life on earth IS purgatory and the ONLY chance for returning to God to
receive eternal life.
--
Dore
www.dorewilliamson.com
"Pastor Dave" <pastordave38@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:26k1o01bva593537ch0jqv9naart0ttou7@4ax.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:35:22 +1100, while wondering if
all people love cupcakes, "Raktizer Omheit"
<cequka@iprimus.com.au> yodeled:
There is the first and second death of Revelation chapters 19 - 20, I
Corinthians 15 : 55 - 56, Revelation 9 : 1 - 12 and I Corinthians 3 :
10 -
15 to think about, or in other words, possibly purgatory, the second
chance
after the 1000 years purification process, without the benefits of an
early
release by means of prayers for the dead, or so I interpret the second
death
to mean. Remember what II Peter 3 : 8 says: "But, beloved, do not forget
this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a
thousand years as one day." If the second resurrection and the second
death
do not support the existence of purgatory, than those Jews who died in
the
Nazi Holocaust have no way of avoiding the lake of fire and brimstone [
see
Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ]. I John 2 : 22 - 23 says that whoever does not
believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah is an antichrist. Therefore,
only
those Jews who convert to Christianity have a chance of entering heaven.
However, the then pagan or polytheist Romans, whose supreme sky god was
Jupiter, actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, although
the
pagan Romans eventually converted to Christianity.
I John 2 : 22 - 23 says the following :
"22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who
acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
If the first and second resurrections and the first and second death do
not
support the existence of purgatory [ see Revelation chs. 19 - 20 ], then
those Jews who died in the Nazi Holocaust without having converted to
Christianity before their deaths have no way of avoiding the lake of fire
and brimstone, and are therefore already damned.
If purgatory does not exist, it could then be argued that we should have
no
prisons, because we might imprison by accident those criminals who
sincerely
repent of their crimes before they are sentenced, even if their victims
do
not forgive them. Purgatory is necessary in order to secure justice for
the
victims of sin an crime. That is what Matthew 5 : 25 - 26, Luke 12 : 58 -
59, John 20 : 19 - 23, Matthew 18 : 21 - 35, Matthew 6 : 14 - 15, and
Luke
17 : 3 - 4 says when read together as a parable.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after
this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"I have more understanding than all my teachers:
for thy testimonies are my meditation." - Psalm 119:99
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
.
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| User: "Echo2Drs" |
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| Title: Re: The Nature of Purgatory? |
05 Nov 2004 11:55:17 PM |
|
|
Life on earth IS purgatory and the ONLY chance for returning to God to
receive eternal life.
Correct! :)
.
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