On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Ananias917 wrote:

The Jews did not invent the BIBLICAL HOLY DAYS; God did!

Take a chill pill dude. I'm a pastor. I know that. :) My point was
that they were holy days that God had given to the Jewish people (and
those who lived within their camps).

Take the red pill, for crying out loud. People apparently invented *all*
holidays & have attributed a few of them to the gods or god.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:14:35 +1100, "Roy Mock"
<roymock1@optusnetDOTcomDOTau> spake thusly:

"Ananias917" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5donp1pih7vgtf11uq3j8hub0gkhbjdni3@4ax.com...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:28:22 -0500, Aaron
<anon@home.net> spake thusly:

And GOD speaks about celebrating pagan festival in a vain attempt to
worship Him; he calls is evil (Deuteronomy, Chapter 12).

"Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions
for consciences' sake; FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S AND ITS FULNESS. If
one
of the unbelievers invites you, and you wish to go, eat anything that
is
set before you, without asking questions for consciences' sake. But if
anyone should say to you, 'This is meat sacrificed to idols,' do not
eat
<it>, for the sake of the one who informed <you>, and for conscience'
sake. I mean not your own conscience, but the other <man's>; for why is
my
freedom judged by another's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness,
why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? Whether,
then,
you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." 1
Corinthians 10:25-31

So we see that a Christian is allowed to eat food sacrificed to idol.

Acts 15:19-21 says that no follower of Messiah may eat food offered to
an idol. Paul does NOT say that meat that you know was offer to an
idol is edible; he says to be friendly and not arrogant, but that if
you are informed of the evil nature of the meat, you should not
consume it.

It is a bad analogy anyway. Eating the food is not
equivalent. An equivalent analogy would be Paul
putting up the idol and sacrificing the meat, since
the Christians are the ones who are putting up
the tree and decorating it. :)

Hi Dave,

Wouldn't that principle extend to playing cards, and chess, and the naming
of the days of the week?

Would it be OK to worship on Saturdays?

Roy, you are now trying to excuse the action of taking
what is pagan and claiming to worship the Lord with
it, by pointing to other possible sins.

This is an evasive argument that people use when they
know they are cornered. (:

Our mother's taught us that two wrongs don't make
a right. Yet when it comes to what people WANT
to do, then all of the sudden, we didn't learn that
simple lesson and it's okay to go directly against
common sense.

And people making this type of argument, to anyone
who is halfway bright, is nothing more than an
acknowledgement that yes, it was a bad analogy
and yes, they know it is wrong and so, they try to
misdirect the discussion elsewhere. (:
Besides this, there is nothing I can do about the names
of the days of the week. I can however, refuse to do
what I do have control over.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:14:35 +1100, "Roy Mock"
<roymock1@optusnetDOTcomDOTau> wrote:

"Ananias917" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5donp1pih7vgtf11uq3j8hub0gkhbjdni3@4ax.com...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:28:22 -0500, Aaron
<anon@home.net> spake thusly:

And GOD speaks about celebrating pagan festival in a vain attempt to
worship Him; he calls is evil (Deuteronomy, Chapter 12).

"Eat anything that is sold in the meat market, without asking questions
for consciences' sake; FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD'S AND ITS FULNESS. If
one
of the unbelievers invites you, and you wish to go, eat anything that
is
set before you, without asking questions for consciences' sake. But if
anyone should say to you, 'This is meat sacrificed to idols,' do not
eat
<it>, for the sake of the one who informed <you>, and for conscience'
sake. I mean not your own conscience, but the other <man's>; for why is
my
freedom judged by another's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness,
why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? Whether,
then,
you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." 1
Corinthians 10:25-31

So we see that a Christian is allowed to eat food sacrificed to idol.

Acts 15:19-21 says that no follower of Messiah may eat food offered to
an idol. Paul does NOT say that meat that you know was offer to an
idol is edible; he says to be friendly and not arrogant, but that if
you are informed of the evil nature of the meat, you should not
consume it.

It is a bad analogy anyway. Eating the food is not
equivalent. An equivalent analogy would be Paul
putting up the idol and sacrificing the meat, since
the Christians are the ones who are putting up
the tree and decorating it. :)

Hi Dave,

Wouldn't that principle extend to playing cards, and chess, and the naming
of the days of the week?

I'm not really into playing cards, personally. However, if you use
them to make decisions or predict the future, that is certainly evil.
The actual origin of Chess is not definately known, however the most
prevalent story is that the indian version was invented by an Indian
price attempting to explain to his mother why he had to kill his
brother to maintain the unity of his kingdom. This is not a pagan
religious origin.

Would it be OK to worship on Saturdays?

The use of Sunday as the primary day of worship is evil.
You can worship on all days, but God requires that the primary day of
worship be Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 00:36:31 -0500, Aaron
<anon@home.net> spake thusly:

Actually, no, it isn't. The Christians did gather on
the first day of the week. That doesn't mean that
the Sabbath was changed and that is where people
get confused. They probably got together for their
meetings on the first day of the week because...

Actually, the greek which is frequently transdlated as "first of the
week" is "mia shabbaton" (First of Sabbath). This can refer to the
Erev Shabbat service on Friday evening (the begining of Saturday on
the Hebrew calendar) of the Havdallah service Saturday evening (The
end of Sabbath on the Hebrew Calendar and first service of the week).
From the context we can determin which passages refer to which
service.

1) That is the day the Lord rose.

No. He rose on an annual Holy Day, Yom HaBikkurim, also known as
"Rishon HaOmer." It did fall on a Sunday that year, but the Disciples
knew the Biblical Holy Days. The Sunday change was not made until
centuries later.

I did not say one word about "the Sabbath change",

except to clearly state that they gathering on the
first day of the week, had nothing to do with the
Sabbath being changed. You are attributing a
Roman Catholic argument to me, that I did not
make and was careful to note was not what I was
saying. (:

You have stated that it was the first day of the week,
so starting off with, "no", didn't make any sense.

2) The first believers were almost all Jews
and they would have been in temple on the
seventh day.

Actually, they were in their synagogues with all the followers of
Jesus. The Temple did not serve as the weekly meeting place for the
majority of the 7,200,000 jews living in Israel at that time. They
established their own synagogues very early on.

I understand that, but I was noting Jerusalem.
The point is, that you are merely claiming that
they established Christian synagogues. I see
no evidence of that in the Bible.

3) Jews who wished to continue to observe
the Torah, would not be allowed to travel
more than about 3/4 of a mile on the seventh
day and therefore, probably couldn't get to
the Christian meetings, had they been on
the Sabbath.

You could not get to a Christian meeting because there were no
Christians in today's use of the word. The religion Jesus taught His
Disciples was fully Torah observant. He did state that the Jews who
accepted Him were not required to be bound by the rulings of the
Sanhedrin.

You are making arguments over words and completely
ignoring the point made.

The fact is, that they gathered together and they did
not do it in a fashion that sought to change the Jewish
world. They did not take over the synagogues. It was
not a militant movement. They met in houses. That's
all I see in the Scriptures.

As for "completely Torah observant", if that were true,
then they would have been performing animal sacrifices
for sin and that would be blasphemy and an abomination.

In Matthew 16, Jesus ordained the Disciples as a Beyt Din
(religious court) with authority over His followers.

And those words are found where?

Jews, who Jesus required to oberserve all of the Torah forever,
establish the first houses of worship for believers in Jesus.

That is your claim. And I'll tell ya, it really annoys
me when Jews come into these groups and claim
to know all there is to know about not only what
the NT says, but what was running through Jesus'
mind, even though He said things that fly in the face
of their views.

If He commanded them to observe all of the Torah
forever, then He was no Savior, because they would
need to perform sacrifices for sin and that simply
is not true.

And don't bother trying to except those sacrifices.
All of the Torah means all of the Torah.

It also means that God gave Peter a false vision
in Acts 10.

They
established these houses of worship in palces where they could worship
on Sabbath. Acts 15 even states that they taught Torah there on
Sabbath.

That's not true. It's not even close to being true.
Acts 15 notes that Moses is taught on the Sabbath.
It does not say, "And we Christians, who now run
the synagogues, teach the Law there on the Sabbath".

In fact, James specifically notes that it is others
teaching it.

"For Moses of old time hath in every city THEM
that preach him, being read in the synagogues
every Sabbath day."

You have added to the Scriptures.