The Nicene Creed

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"IknowHimDoYou"
Date:	08 Oct 2003 04:13:02 PM
Object:	The Nicene Creed

The Nicene Creed
Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!
There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.
.

User: "Frank Reichenbacher"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	08 Nov 2003 03:28:57 PM

"IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

It is only exceeded by the "magnatude" [sic] of this un-Christian arrogance.
Frank
<snip arrogant rant>
.

User: "flora macdonald"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 03:41:21 AM

(IknowHimDoYou) wrote in message news:<IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com>...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

One of the most significant factors in the Nicene Creed as a basis for
Christian Doctrine is the fact that the bishop of Rome did not have
any input into the Doctrine.
He was invited by The Emperor and Pope (Ponifex Maximus) Constantine,
but did not attend.
Flora
.

User: "Brent Howatt"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 07:10:16 PM

In alt.talk.creationism IknowHimDoYou <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote:

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

The Nicene Creed dates from 325 C.E. The Bible Canon from 397 C.E. Prior
to 397, there were many scriiptures circulating that following the Council
of Carthage were deemed not to be inspired. The Bible did not become
"intact" as such until 397. Some heretic bibliolaters hold that the Bible
was actually written by God and revealed to man, much in the manner that
Moslems regard the Koran and Mormons regard the Book of Mormon. The great
majority of Christians regard this as heresy.
--
H. Brent Howatt | The deluded are always filled with absolutes
heyref@die.spammers.rootshell.be| The rest of us have to live with ambiguity
PGP keys by email or keyserver | _Aristoi_ Walter Jon Williams
.

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 08:08:12 AM

In article <IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com>,
IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote:
-The Nicene Creed
-
-Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
-without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
-astounding!
-
-There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
-Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
-even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
-Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
-Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
-cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
-left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
-action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.
Here is the Nicene Creed:
The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and
of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of
the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very
God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom
all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down
from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and
was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He
suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the
Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the
Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the
dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who
proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son
together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we
believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism
for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.
=========
Where in the Creed does it require a A belief in the Scriptures as
necessary to "be a Christian"?
And how did the Bible become the 4th Person of the Godhead..that is why do
you say the Bible is the Word of God when the Bible itself says that the
Word of God is the Sin of God?
(See the 1st Chapter of John)
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "Og"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 06:25:51 PM

And how did the Bible become the 4th Person of the Godhead..that is why do
you say the Bible is the Word of God when the Bible itself says that the
Word of God is the Sin of God?

(See the 1st Chapter of John)

I couldn't find that in the first chapter of John.
What verse is it?
.

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	10 Oct 2003 07:46:34 AM

In article <vobqmndnqaf293@corp.supernews.com>, "Og" <Og@bashan.org> wrote:
-> And how did the Bible become the 4th Person of the Godhead..that is why do
-> you say the Bible is the Word of God when the Bible itself says that the
-> Word of God is the Sin of God?
->
-> (See the 1st Chapter of John)
-
-I couldn't find that in the first chapter of John.
-What verse is it?
Excuse the MAJOT typo!!
The first chapter of John, referring to the one called Jesus, who later
refers to himself as the Son of God (John chapter 3), says the Word if
God is....the one called Jesus"
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that
has been made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness hasn't overcome it.
6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came as a witness, that he might testify about the light, that
all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but was sent that he might testify about the light.
9 The true light that enlightens everyone was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world
didn't recognize him.
11 He came to his own, and those who were his own didn't receive him.
12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's
children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the
will of man, but of God.
14 The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory
as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testified about him. He cried out, saying, "This was he of whom I
said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me, for he was before me.'"
16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus
Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only conceived Son, who is in the
bosom of the Father, he has declared him.
19 This is John's testimony, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from
Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 He confessed, and didn't deny, but he confessed, "I am not the Christ."
21 They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are
you the prophet?" He answered, "No."
22 They said therefore to him, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take
back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"
23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make
straight the way of the Lord,' as Isaiah the prophet said."
24 The ones who had been sent were from the Pharisees.
25 They asked him, "Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Christ,
nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
26 John answered them, "I baptize in water, but among you stands one whom
you don't know,
27 he who comes after me, whose sandal strap I'm not worthy to untie."
28 These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was
baptizing.
29 On the next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the
Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who is preferred
before me, for he was before me.'
31 I didn't know him, but for this reason I came baptizing in water: that
he would be revealed to Israel."
32 John testified, saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove
out of heaven, and it remained on him.
33 I didn't recognize him, but he who sent me to baptize in water, he said
to me, 'On whoever you will see the Spirit descending, and remaining on
him, the same is he who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 I have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."
35 Again, on the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples,
36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"
37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, "What are you
looking for?" They said to him, "Rabbi" (which is to say, being
interpreted, Teacher), "where are you staying?"
39 He said to them, "Come, and see." They came and saw where he was
staying, and they stayed with him that day. It was about the tenth hour.
40 One of the two who heard John, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon
Peter's brother.
41 He first found his own brother, Simon, and said to him, "We have found
the Messiah!" (which is, being interpreted, Christ).
42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon
the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is by interpretation,
Peter).
43 On the next day, he was determined to go forth into Galilee, and he
found Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me."
44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip found Nathanael, and said to him, "We have found him, of whom
Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote: Jesus of Nazareth, the son of
Joseph."
46 Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?"
Philip said to him, "Come and see."
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said about him, "Behold, an
Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!"
48 Nathanael said to him, "How do you know me?" Jesus answered him,
"Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
49 Nathanael answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are King of
Israel!"
50 Jesus answered him, "Because I told you, 'I saw you underneath the fig
tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
51 He said to him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, hereafter you will see
heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son
of Man."
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "Luke Johnston"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 11:22:47 PM

Aha, but the Word IS God. Maybe YOU should read John 1. It starts out with
one of the most revealing passages I have ever read in the Bible:
John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has
been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
(NIV)
Not only is the speaking of Jesus the Christ, but it was also demonstrating
that Jesus is the Word made Flesh, and Jesus is God, so God is the word. In
a way, you can look at the Bible as being God. It is how God speaks to us.
We cannot have a Christian walk with God and Jesus without reading His word.
Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
"Ninure Saunders" <RainbowChristiannohate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:RainbowChristiannohate-0910030820260001@h-68-164-15-29.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net...

In article <IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com>,
IknowHim@leavingsoon.com (IknowHimDoYou) wrote:

-The Nicene Creed
-
-Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
-without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
-astounding!
-
-There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
-Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
-even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
-Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
-Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
-cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
-left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
-action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

Here is the Nicene Creed:

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of
the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very
God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom
all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down
from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and
was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He
suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the
Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the
Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the
dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who
proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son
together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we
believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism
for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

=========

Where in the Creed does it require a A belief in the Scriptures as
necessary to "be a Christian"?

And how did the Bible become the 4th Person of the Godhead..that is why do
you say the Bible is the Word of God when the Bible itself says that the
Word of God is the Sin of God?

(See the 1st Chapter of John)

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

User: "David Jensen"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	10 Oct 2003 08:25:37 AM

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vocd0lfl4rbteb@corp.supernews.com>:

Aha, but the Word IS God. Maybe YOU should read John 1. It starts out with
one of the most revealing passages I have ever read in the Bible:

John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has
been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
(NIV)

Not only is the speaking of Jesus the Christ, but it was also demonstrating
that Jesus is the Word made Flesh, and Jesus is God, so God is the word. In
a way, you can look at the Bible as being God. It is how God speaks to us.
We cannot have a Christian walk with God and Jesus without reading His word.

Whereever did you get the idea that _scriptures_ were being referred to
in this passage?
.

User: "Luke Johnston"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	12 Oct 2003 04:40:45 PM

David,
Why else do you think John used this wording? If he said "the Word" he may
have been talking about God, and he may have been talking about the Bible.
What do you think of when you see this phrase "the Word." I know that
millions of people think of the Bible. God knew this, and he wanted John to
use this wording in his book so that it would have multiple meanings. The
Bible should not be taken too literally, or too figuratively. You have to
look at the overall picture of God's message in the Bible, and then realize
what he is trying to tell us.
Think about it....Jesus knew every inch of the Old Testament. He recited
passage after passage. HE realized the overall message, which is why so
many people where astonished at him. He gave a new way to think about the
scriptures. Not only did he know the old word, but also the new word. He
was the Word incarnate.
Also, look at it this way: All of Christianity is based on the Bible. This
is truly the only way that we know that the true God exists. So, in a way,
the Bible IS God. It is His word, a link between man and God. We discover
new things about God through it everday, and rediscover old things about
him. This last idea may be a weak argument, but my overall belief and
conviction is that the Word came to earth in human form and dwelt among us.
I'm praying for you David.
God bless,
Luke Johnston
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:socdovs4i3jlfoo4f3i4ml2v617v0opc9j@4ax.com...

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vocd0lfl4rbteb@corp.supernews.com>:

Aha, but the Word IS God. Maybe YOU should read John 1. It starts out

with

one of the most revealing passages I have ever read in the Bible:

John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

was

God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has
been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood

it.

(NIV)

Not only is the speaking of Jesus the Christ, but it was also

demonstrating

that Jesus is the Word made Flesh, and Jesus is God, so God is the word.

a way, you can look at the Bible as being God. It is how God speaks to

us.

We cannot have a Christian walk with God and Jesus without reading His

word.

Whereever did you get the idea that _scriptures_ were being referred to
in this passage?

User: "David Jensen"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	12 Oct 2003 06:16:15 PM

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>,
who still cannot understand that he should not top-post, wrote in
<vojiiq6o40h4a6@corp.supernews.com>:

David,
Why else do you think John used this wording? If he said "the Word" he may
have been talking about God, and he may have been talking about the Bible.

Unless you are claiming that the Bible is God, your choices are limited.

What do you think of when you see this phrase "the Word." I know that
millions of people think of the Bible. God knew this, and he wanted John to
use this wording in his book so that it would have multiple meanings. The
Bible should not be taken too literally, or too figuratively. You have to
look at the overall picture of God's message in the Bible, and then realize
what he is trying to tell us.

John has many highly figurative passages which become nonsense when read
literally. This is one of them.

Think about it....Jesus knew every inch of the Old Testament. He recited
passage after passage. HE realized the overall message, which is why so
many people where astonished at him. He gave a new way to think about the
scriptures. Not only did he know the old word, but also the new word. He
was the Word incarnate.

Figuratively. Still, you have to decide what John is referring to if you
are trying to equate God with scriptures. Are they only the Hebrew
Scriptures, or did John magically know that there would be new,
Christian scriptures added to the Hebrew ones and that what he was
writing would be part of it?

Also, look at it this way: All of Christianity is based on the Bible. This

Many religions are based on parts or all or more than what you call the
Bible. All claim to be the right way of understanding God and His work
and all claim to be based on the Bible. Different sects and
denominations condemn the teachings of others, so that every single
Christian denomination has been condemned as un-Christian and
un-Biblical. Trying to find the right way to understand God from the
Bible alone is a fool's errand.

is truly the only way that we know that the true God exists. So, in a way,
the Bible IS God. It is His word, a link between man and God. We discover
new things about God through it everday, and rediscover old things about
him. This last idea may be a weak argument, but my overall belief and
conviction is that the Word came to earth in human form and dwelt among us.

User: "Not-easily-duped"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	15 Oct 2003 06:45:24 PM

David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message news:<3jnjovkbgesku33in40m18oumem224qs89@4ax.com>...

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>,
who still cannot understand that he should not top-post, wrote in
<vojiiq6o40h4a6@corp.supernews.com>:

David,
Why else do you think John used this wording? If he said "the Word" he may
have been talking about God, and he may have been talking about the Bible.

Unless you are claiming that the Bible is God, your choices are limited.

John has many highly figurative passages which become nonsense when read
literally. This is one of them.

Also, look at it this way: All of Christianity is based on the Bible. This

Brilliant!

User: "Raymond E. Griffith"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	12 Oct 2003 09:21:23 PM

in article vojiiq6o40h4a6@corp.supernews.com, Luke Johnston at
lukejohnston@cableone.net wrote on 10/12/03 5:40 PM:

David,
Why else do you think John used this wording? If he said "the Word" he may
have been talking about God, and he may have been talking about the Bible.
What do you think of when you see this phrase "the Word." I know that
millions of people think of the Bible. God knew this, and he wanted John to
use this wording in his book so that it would have multiple meanings. The
Bible should not be taken too literally, or too figuratively. You have to
look at the overall picture of God's message in the Bible, and then realize
what he is trying to tell us.

Think about it....Jesus knew every inch of the Old Testament. He recited
passage after passage. HE realized the overall message, which is why so
many people where astonished at him. He gave a new way to think about the
scriptures. Not only did he know the old word, but also the new word. He
was the Word incarnate.

Also, look at it this way: All of Christianity is based on the Bible. This
is truly the only way that we know that the true God exists. So, in a way,
the Bible IS God. It is His word, a link between man and God. We discover
new things about God through it everday, and rediscover old things about
him. This last idea may be a weak argument, but my overall belief and
conviction is that the Word came to earth in human form and dwelt among us.

I'm praying for you David.

God bless,
Luke Johnston

"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:socdovs4i3jlfoo4f3i4ml2v617v0opc9j@4ax.com...

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vocd0lfl4rbteb@corp.supernews.com>:

Aha, but the Word IS God. Maybe YOU should read John 1. It starts out

with

one of the most revealing passages I have ever read in the Bible:

John 1:1-5
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word

was

it.

(NIV)

Not only is the speaking of Jesus the Christ, but it was also

demonstrating

that Jesus is the Word made Flesh, and Jesus is God, so God is the word.

a way, you can look at the Bible as being God. It is how God speaks to

us.

We cannot have a Christian walk with God and Jesus without reading His

word.

Whereever did you get the idea that _scriptures_ were being referred to
in this passage?

The equating of Scripture with Deity is a growing heresy. It appears to be
closely linked to the overworked "preservationist" doctrine promoted by the
King James Version only heretics. There is nothing in the Scripture which
indicates that the words spoken by God are equal with God Himself.
Furthermore, not every Scripture has equal claim to being "God's Word" or
"God's words". There are definitely words attributable to others.
Now there are some very difficult things you will have to face if you want
to equate Scripture or the Bible with God Himself. Do you turn God's pages?
Do you pray to the printed word? Did not God get upset with Israel when they
made a graven image -- a thing -- to "represent" God? You will recall that
the idea of the golden calf was not to worship the gods of Egypt, but the
God who brought them out of Egypt. Well, worship of a book, or equating the
book with God Himself, is equally idolatrous.
The Bible was not prewritten in Eternity. If you believe so, it is based
upon the misinterpretation of single verses torn from their context. Within
their context, none of the Scriptures ever hint at this idea. If this were
so, then all of the things ever done by any person mentioned in Scripture
were done by divine predestination, and not of free will. You would then
have to conclude that the Scriptural record of David's sin was God's will
for David in advance, that David had no free will in the matter, since God
had written out in advance what he would do in detail. Similarly, even the
fall of man was predestined! And why should Ananias and Sapphira have been
killed for lying to the Holy Spirit, when God Himself had predestined them
to do so?
Yet such *must* be your ultimate conclusion if you decide that the
Scriptures are equal to God.
John used the Greek principle of a Divine First Cause -- the Word, or Logos
-- to promote the deity of Christ. The idea was that reality followed the
Thought Spoken. So the Word created all things, since reality followed the
Word Spoken. Thus John ties Christ to the Godhead as the one active in
Creation, where "and God said" was followed by being and becoming.
But this is the limit of the Logos idea that John portrays. For although
"the man sent from God whose name was John" [the Baptist] was a prophet, and
as a prophet spoke God's words, still John was "not that Light ... that
lighteth every man". John did not deliver God Himself to the people, but
rather God's message. Christ came as God made flesh, the deity dwelling in a
tabernacle of flesh, to deliver (as it were) God's message on a more
personal level.
Not even Paul says that his words are the equivalent of Deity. After all, in
1 Corinthians 7 there are places where Paul writes "by permission", and
those writings are definitely not the Lord's commandments. Paul writes of
his own judgment -- and unless you want to conclude that Paul was God
incarnate, you had best not say then that those Scriptures are "the Bible IS
God".
I am a Christian. But your "defense" of Christianity has been of the weakest
and most indefensible sort. Laughable, too. And why should you put God to
the mockers?
Do you write in your Bible? Then, according to you, you are writing on God.
Obviously your words are not equal to those, so you are defacing God. Hmmm.
And those notes in the margins, and cross references? God, crossreferenced?
You turn the pages of God? When you drop your Bible on the floor, you have
dropped God? What about the occasional misprints in certain Bibles? Has God
been misprinted? Or the translational errors? Has God been changed or merely
misconfigured?
Is the word "the" a part of God? It is in the Bible! Or most any word,
common or specific found in the Bible? When I speak any words found in the
Bible, is God part of my speech, or is my speech a part of God?
You may say that this is all so silly -- but if the logical end of your
contention that "the Bible IS God" is reached, you arrive at silliness. God
is not honored by your contention. Instead He is mocked and belittled.
Far better to fall back to a firmer theology. The certainty demanded by some
people's "faith" is a certainty of error. Far better to be less certain and
more humble.
Ignorance is not excusable, and defending ignorance is pitiful. So many
people who might have been reached for Christ by a rightly reasoned position
are turned away by pitiful non-scriptural foolishness. And saying that the
Bible is God is non-scriptural foolishness.
Sincerely,
Raymond E. Griffith
.

User: "Christine"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	10 Oct 2003 03:42:35 PM

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:13:02 -0700,

(IknowHimDoYou) wrote:

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

Thank you for starting this discussion!
I respectfully agree with you. I don't know how it is possible to
fully grasp the Nicene creed without reading at least John and being
baptized in the spirit.
When this is done the Nicene creed is appropriately a description of
what the Christian faith is based upon. An explanation of "what it is"
But you cannot know what a rose is by someone describing its values.
Imagine describing a rose to an eskimo?
We see all the problems people have of describing it from the outside
looking in----to them it is three separate gods, or the rose is the
color of blood, it has sharp pointy things called thorns on its side,
or thorns or it has a stem that is green like this small green weed.
It has a crown of petals, oh petals what are those? They are soft
like fur, but thin fur like that otter....disk shaped and small.
What picture do you suppose this eskimo sees from that description?
So the creed is only a description of what is, and like describing a
rose to an eskimo, can produce some pretty bizarre results in the
perception of the one searching for the rose to fit that description.
1 Corinthians 15:
"12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some
among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be
no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ
be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have
testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if
so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not
Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye
are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in
Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we
are of all men most miserable. "
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Yours in Christ,
Christine
.

User: "386sx"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	10 Oct 2003 04:43:28 PM

Christine writes:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your
sins.

Well, see now - you're willing to go as far as supposing that "Christ be not
raised," but you are not willing to take he extra step and imagine that your
Christian concept of "sin" might be a myth too.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Ditto the same here too. Come to think of it, you were never one to make
much of a sensible argument about much of anything anyways. You seem like
the kind of guy who really doesn't give a hoot about trying to make a
reasonable and logical case for your "faith," but rather it seems you are
more concerned with saying stuff that sounds good to people who don't want
to take the time to unravel half of your nonsense.
What was that thing you once said about seeds having to die first before
they can grow? Sounds all good and philosophical on its face, but
unfortunately it's pure garbage even assuming your beliefs are true, because
you don't believe seeds have "souls" or that Christ came to save them. One
case doesn't follow from the other, silly.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most
miserable. "

One more of your usual bald-faced non sequiturs.
--
"He affirmed that only in man we had the beatings of the heart, that the
left side of the body was colder than the right, that men have more teeth
than women." -- John Tyndall
.

User: "Christine"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	10 Oct 2003 05:52:55 PM

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:43:28 -0400, 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

Christine writes:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your
sins.

Note the word "if" .
and
Are you saying that murder is a myth? for example?

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Ditto the same here too.

Ditto what?

Come to think of it, you were never one to make
much of a sensible argument about much of anything anyways.

Good, I don't like to argue, I should hope I never get so good at it
that I seek it out.

You seem like
the kind of guy who really doesn't give a hoot about trying to make a
reasonable and logical case for your "faith,"

It depends.
Would my attempts at logic and reason change your mind in this matter?
I will ask you a simple request then, before I commit to this obvious
stretch for me ( attempting to use reason and logic to change your
mind in this matter)
Provide for me conclusive evidence that this has been done with you
before. On usenet. Show me a post and the position where you started
out at, and walk me through how this individual changed your mind
using reason and logic.

but rather it seems you are
more concerned with saying stuff that sounds good to people

What Jesus Christ taught *is* good. I am more concerned with that,
youa re correct.

who don't want
to take the time to unravel half of your nonsense.

nonsense?
very well then...
We need to make it not look like nonsense.
In this respect you can help me by showing me the occassion when
logic and reason prevailed and changed your mind about a view you were
heavily invested in.
This will undoubtedly help.

What was that thing you once said about seeds having to die first before
they can grow?

I don't know, I just did a search on "seeds" and my name and then
"seed" and my name and then 386sx and my name and I found nothing on
google.
I have been told that forest fires burn pine cones and the seeds are
then released. But cannot recall a reference to seeds dying.
I read this on seeds:
Matthew 13:31:
"He put before them another parable: 'The kingdom of heaven is like a
mustard seed that someone took and sowed in his field; 32 it is the
smallest of all the seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of
shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make
nests in its branches.' "
and yet again: Mtt 13:31---
3Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: 'Behold, a
sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the
wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5Some fell on stony
places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately
sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6But when the sun was up
they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
8But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a
hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9He who has ears to hear, let
him hear!
Then there is this from Luke 8:
11"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by
the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away
the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the
word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in
time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns
are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares,
riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But
the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the
word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with
patience."

Sounds all good and philosophical on its face, but
unfortunately it's pure garbage even assuming your beliefs are true, because
you don't believe seeds have "souls" or that Christ came to save them.

I believe in the word of Jesus Christ.
Take note of those last two references to seeds, above. What was
Jesus Christ saying about "seeds" and indeed "souls"?
Hint:
John 12:
"47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

One
case doesn't follow from the other, silly.

For me, everything follows from Jesus Christ as long as I follow Jesus
Christ.
( I have made my mistakes though)

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most
miserable. "

One more of your usual bald-faced non sequiturs.

This quote of scripture is one of the strongest most beautiful and
clear proclamations of faith ever written.
It has been in part responsible for leading many well educated
scholars and ordained ministers into a comprehension of the
trinity,articulated in teh Nicene Creed. Where before they only had a
doctrinal understanding, this is one of those landmark passages that
led them to their journey into receiving the Holy Spirit through Jesus
Christ.
It brings us to mind of those times and how new it all was, and yeah
how they were really saying this, and I am now saying this echo from
the past --- if Christ did not rise again, as we believe, as I believe
, and have come to know through faith, then we more than anyone else
are to be pitied.
Yours in Christ
Christine
.

User: "386sx"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	11 Oct 2003 12:34:58 AM

Christine writes:

386sx wrote:

[...]

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your
sins.

Well, see now - you're willing to go as far as supposing that "Christ be
not raised," but you are not willing to take he extra step and imagine
that your Christian concept of "sin" might be a myth too.

Note the word "if" .

If you'll read the paragraph beginning with "Well, see now," you'll see that
I have already noted this.

and

Are you saying that murder is a myth? for example?

No. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if God didn't exist, there could be no
transgressions against the nonexistent God. However, if your definition of
"sin" goes something like, "stuff that's against the law, regardless of the
existence of 'God'," then I'll go along with it - although I don't think Paul
might totally agree with our definition of "sin." Otherwise, I'm not sure I
understand your question.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Ditto the same here too.

Ditto what?

Paul is willing to consider that the resurrection might be a myth, but he
won't consider that God and sin might be myths too. This is an indication
that he is not taking plainly obvious counter arguments into consideration -
he's just running off at the mouth. He could care less about trying to make
sense. He's delusional.

Come to think of it, you were never one to make much of a sensible
argument about much of anything anyways.

Good, I don't like to argue, I should hope I never get so good at it that
I seek it out.

I was addressing Paul, the supposed author of "And if Christ be not raised,
your faith is vain;" etc. (Yes, I know he can't hear me.) Please note that
I have taken note of your non sequitur. (If one seeks out argument, it does
not necessarily follow that one is "so good at it.")
[...]

but rather it seems you are more concerned with saying stuff that sounds
good to people

What Jesus Christ taught *is* good. I am more concerned with that, youa
re correct.

who don't want to take the time to unravel half of your nonsense.

nonsense?

John 12:24
1 Cor. 15:36
You think it makes sense that seeds must die before they can multiply? Even
if it were true, so what? Someone is a fool if he can't draw a correlation
between dead seeds and people rising from the dead, and he doesn't know that
seeds must die before they grow? Hmmm... How foolish!

very well then...

We need to make it not look like nonsense.

In this respect you can help me by showing me the occassion when logic and
reason prevailed and changed your mind about a view you were heavily
invested in.

http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3bc70969%241_1%40news.starnetinc.com
[...]

One case doesn't follow from the other, silly.

For me, everything follows from Jesus Christ as long as I follow Jesus
Christ.

Nice dodge. In other words, apples are oranges as long as you follow Jesus
Christ.
[...]
--
"He affirmed that only in man we had the beatings of the heart, that the
left side of the body was colder than the right, that men have more teeth
than women." -- John Tyndall
.

User: "Christine"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	11 Oct 2003 01:26:22 AM

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 01:34:58 -0400, 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

Christine writes:

386sx wrote:

[...]

ok you I am going to snip everything that came before.
reason, my purpose is not to argue.
I really am not so good at it honestly, let's say you win on all pints
proceeding this one if it helps.
I want laser precision focus
right here
with the seed thing

John 12:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth
much fruit."
followed by----
25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life
in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26If any man serve me,
let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if
any man serve me, him will my Father honour

1 Cor. 15:36

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38But
God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own
body. 39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of
flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and
another of birds

You think it makes sense that seeds must die before they can multiply?

I can speak to you about how I died before I was reborn in Christ and
even how many of the ideas and things I treasured about my self
concept I have laid on the cross for death.
But instead my attention is drawn to your reference to multiplying,
why are you concerned with multiplying?

Even
if it were true, so what?

Yes so what?
Perhaps the message is only for those who wish to "multiply", but do
you really really believe this?
If you do not wish to multiply this message should have no impact on
you.
If you do, well you know that the mere act of procreation is
sufficient for multiplication.
I suspect you mean something a lot deeper, but I am not a mind reader.

Someone is a fool if he can't draw a correlation
between dead seeds and people rising from the dead, and he doesn't know that
seeds must die before they grow? Hmmm... How foolish!

Well I know what I have read but why don't you tell me a little more
about what you really mean?

http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3bc70969%241_1%40news.starnetinc.com

Oh I am sorry this thread had 311 posts, you are going to have to be
much more specific than this.
I will not read 311 posts to understand what you felt was successful.
Fair yes?

[...]

One case doesn't follow from the other, silly.

For me, everything follows from Jesus Christ as long as I follow Jesus
Christ.

Nice dodge. In other words, apples are oranges as long as you follow Jesus
Christ.

All things are possible through Jesus Christ
No dodge.
Yours in Christ
Christine
.

User: "386sx"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	11 Oct 2003 02:28:28 PM

Christine writes:

I can speak to you about how I died before I was reborn in Christ and even
how many of the ideas and things I treasured about my self concept I have
laid on the cross for death.

Ah, it's all beginning to make sense now. The true parallel between the
seeds and the people that Paul and Jesus were trying to make was that if one
can pretend that seeds must die before they can bring forth much fruit (even
though it's not true - it's just pretend playing, or perhaps a misconception
about the true nature of seeds and agriculture), then one can also pretend
that one has died and been reborn, or that when one dies one will come back
to life as a greater being (even though it's not true - it's just pretend
playing, or wishful thinking, or perhaps a misconception about the true
nature of people and biology.) Very interesting! Thank you for the new
perspective.
--
"He affirmed that only in man we had the beatings of the heart, that the
left side of the body was colder than the right, that men have more teeth
than women." -- John Tyndall
.

User: "Christine"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	11 Oct 2003 04:56:50 PM

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:28:28 -0400, 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

Christine writes:

I can speak to you about how I died before I was reborn in Christ and even
how many of the ideas and things I treasured about my self concept I have
laid on the cross for death.

Why have you reasoned yourself into the need to pretend?
Yours in Christ
Christine- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.
.

User: "John Baker"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	11 Oct 2003 11:01:18 PM

"Christine" <christine@savedbychrist.com> wrote in message
news:vcjjov82saqn061dttmklj4crjvn692s21@4ax.com...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:28:28 -0400, 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

Christine writes:

I can speak to you about how I died before I was reborn in Christ and

even

how many of the ideas and things I treasured about my self concept I

have

laid on the cross for death.

Ah, it's all beginning to make sense now. The true parallel between the
seeds and the people that Paul and Jesus were trying to make was that if

one

can pretend that seeds must die before they can bring forth much fruit

(even

though it's not true - it's just pretend playing, or perhaps a

misconception

about the true nature of seeds and agriculture), then one can also

pretend

that one has died and been reborn, or that when one dies one will come

back

to life as a greater being (even though it's not true - it's just pretend
playing, or wishful thinking, or perhaps a misconception about the true
nature of people and biology.) Very interesting! Thank you for the new
perspective.

Why have you reasoned yourself into the need to pretend?

Let's see. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you apparently actually believe that
the universe was somehow magicked into reality by some mysterious,
all-powerful being for whose existence there is not so much as the tiniest
shred of testable empirical evidence. You also apparently believe that this
unimaginably wise and powerful being who created the entire universe has for
some reason decided to take a personal interest in you, indeed even loves
you, and that if you obey the rules, your soul (another concept for which
supporting evidence is conspicuous by its absence ...) will live with him
forever after your physical body dies. Who's the pretender again?

Yours in Christ

Christine- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

User: "Christine"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	14 Oct 2003 10:41:40 PM

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:01:18 GMT, "John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net>
wrote:

"Christine" <christine@savedbychrist.com> wrote in message
news:vcjjov82saqn061dttmklj4crjvn692s21@4ax.com...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:28:28 -0400, 386sx <386sx@email.com> wrote:

Christine writes:

I can speak to you about how I died before I was reborn in Christ and

even

how many of the ideas and things I treasured about my self concept I

have

laid on the cross for death.

Ah, it's all beginning to make sense now. The true parallel between the
seeds and the people that Paul and Jesus were trying to make was that if

one

can pretend that seeds must die before they can bring forth much fruit

(even

though it's not true - it's just pretend playing, or perhaps a

misconception

about the true nature of seeds and agriculture), then one can also

pretend

that one has died and been reborn, or that when one dies one will come

back

Why have you reasoned yourself into the need to pretend?

Yes.

Who's the pretender again?

The reasoning given has not changed, nor the direction of the
questioning...it must mean the question still stands, why have you
reasoned ,yourself, into the *need* for pretending?
Want clarification?
OK.
I can see that you are *not* pretending, that it is what you honestly
believe. Yet I cannot stretch my imagination to crawl into your mind
and suppose that the only way you maintain these beliefs is out of a
need for pretense.
Why do you need for others to be pretending to maintain your beliefs?
Is there some other way you can accomplish living as you do and
believing as you do without needing for others to be pretending if
they believe quite differently from you?
Why does your belief system require that you rewrite me to conform to
yours?
Yours in Christ
Christine
.

User: "386sx"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	15 Oct 2003 01:44:56 PM

Christine writes:

Why have you reasoned yourself into the need to pretend?

Because this is the easy way to have whatever beliefs I want.

Yours in Christ

Amen to that.

Christine- Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

Amen to that, too.
--
"He affirmed that only in man we had the beatings of the heart, that the
left side of the body was colder than the right, that men have more teeth
than women." -- John Tyndall
.

User: "Luke Johnston"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	08 Oct 2003 10:17:34 PM

Sir,
I agree. I also believe in a daily, personal relationship with God. This
requires daily prayer and reading of the bible. It also requires weekly
fellowship with other Christians. How can you know God's will if you don't
know Him? The only way to get to know him is through prayer, meeting with
other Chrisitians, and reading His Word.
However, if this person who claims he can get by with the Nicene creed has
received the gift of salvation (which I doubt he has) he is looked is saved,
forever, regardless of what he says or does. However, it wouldn't be very
Christ-like if he spread the news that the God's Word wasn't needed, would
it?
Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
"IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

User: "David Jensen"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	08 Oct 2003 10:47:01 PM

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vo9kqc616mrq5d@corp.supernews.com>:

How do you know that it is God's will even after that? Why isn't it
something you persuaded yourself of or the will of Satan? What objective
test do you use?

However, if this person who claims he can get by with the Nicene creed has
received the gift of salvation (which I doubt he has) he is looked is saved,
forever, regardless of what he says or does. However, it wouldn't be very
Christ-like if he spread the news that the God's Word wasn't needed, would
it?

No one made the claim. IKHDY has serious reading comprehension problems.
The point of the creeds was to head off heresies within Christianity.
Those who reject the creeds are essentially announcing that they are
heretics.

Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
"IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

No one claimed this.

There would be no Nicene, Apostle's or Athenasian creeds without the
Scriptures. The Bible was intact long before any of these creeds were
even written and each creed gives a thumbnail description of what the
Bible says to us in our relationship with God. If you take away the
Bible, which is God's communication to us, you are left with only
cults(which is where we are today with most sects). The only authority
left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

User: "Mary Branham"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 09:28:28 AM

"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:9cm9ov84rfnjffnr6rumnleo3k7u4r1gnm@4ax.com...

......The point of the creeds was to head off heresies within

Christianity.

Those who reject the creeds are essentially announcing that they are
heretics.

The third definition of "heresy" in Webster's New Dictionary of the English
Language (2001 ed) is: "dissent from a dominant opinion, theory, or
practice" as well as the first two definitions which have to do with holding
a different viewpoint from that of "The Church"......
I am a heretic, in the sense that I do not believe everything that comes off
of every pulpit. I don't even hold with everything that comes off of the
pulpit of the church I used to attend. It's not the doctrine I necessarily
have a problem with - it's the politics engaged in to ensure that those
doctrines are followed to the letter, which is not possible anyway, since we
are all made of sinful flesh and cannot be perfect in this life.
But my point is, being able to think for oneself and closely scrutinizing
the teachings that come out of the four walls of whichever church one
chooses to attend, and eventually disagreeing somewhat with those teachings,
might make one a heretic.
My soul, my salvation, is worth that much. I'm a free moral agent, not a
lemming.
Mary Branham
.

User: "Luke Johnston"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	08 Oct 2003 11:06:37 PM

Sir,
How do I know the difference between the will of God and the will of Satan?
I know the character of God. Like I said, reading His Word is an essential
part to being a healthy Christian. It tells us his will. You don't use an
objective test. I can always tell when Satan or myself are trying to
persuade me to do something. It goes against everything that is Christian.
The flesh can only do deeds of the flesh, and the Spirit can only do deeds
of the Spirit. So, when you are a Christian, you learn to recognize the
difference between fleshly desires, and the will of God.
Just out of curiosity though: are you posting on all of these religious
boards to cause offense and discord? It seems to me that is your goal. It
would be a good thing if you clarified your intentions.
Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
P.S. - If you want to have scripture verses to back up my post, email me. I
welcome it gladly.
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:9cm9ov84rfnjffnr6rumnleo3k7u4r1gnm@4ax.com...

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vo9kqc616mrq5d@corp.supernews.com>:

Sir,
I agree. I also believe in a daily, personal relationship with God.

This

requires daily prayer and reading of the bible. It also requires weekly
fellowship with other Christians. How can you know God's will if you

don't

know Him? The only way to get to know him is through prayer, meeting

with

other Chrisitians, and reading His Word.

How do you know that it is God's will even after that? Why isn't it
something you persuaded yourself of or the will of Satan? What objective
test do you use?

However, if this person who claims he can get by with the Nicene creed

has

received the gift of salvation (which I doubt he has) he is looked is

saved,

forever, regardless of what he says or does. However, it wouldn't be

very

Christ-like if he spread the news that the God's Word wasn't needed,

would

it?

Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
"IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

No one claimed this.

authority

left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

User: "David Jensen"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	08 Oct 2003 11:18:44 PM

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vo9nmd3rh9le64@corp.supernews.com>:

Sir,
How do I know the difference between the will of God and the will of Satan?
I know the character of God.

But God has many characters in the Bible. He is willing to take bets
with Satan (Job). He is vindictive (Flood). He is intolerant
(Amelekites). He discriminates against women (Mosaic law). His
punishment is out of proportion to the crime (Bears mauling kids).
Certainly He is said to do many kind and wonderful things, too, but all
in all, you cannot tell me what the character of God is from the Bible.

Like I said, reading His Word is an essential
part to being a healthy Christian. It tells us his will.

You assume that the Bible does tell us God's will. You cannot provide
any evidence for that claim. You rely on your faith, and nothing else,
to accept the doctrines that you accept and teach.

You don't use an objective test.

Why not? Subjective tests are notoriously easy to manipulate.

I can always tell when Satan or myself are trying to
persuade me to do something. It goes against everything that is Christian.

Well, I'm convinced that lying about the origins of the universe goes
against Christianity, but Young Earth Creationists lie about it
regularly and they claim to be Christian. I'm convinced from Jesus's
teachings that intolerance and self-righteousness are sins, but we have
a whole passel of self-described Christians whose approach to
Christianity seems closer to the Pharisees as described in the Bible
than the teachings of Jesus.

The flesh can only do deeds of the flesh, and the Spirit can only do deeds
of the Spirit. So, when you are a Christian, you learn to recognize the
difference between fleshly desires, and the will of God.

But it's a mystery to outsiders, so they can't understand. Lots of
religions make that claim. It's a sucker claim.

Just out of curiosity though: are you posting on all of these religious
boards to cause offense and discord? It seems to me that is your goal. It
would be a good thing if you clarified your intentions.

I post from alt.talk.creationism. I did not add any of the other
newsgroups, but I didn't delete them either. This thread has drifted.

Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
P.S. - If you want to have scripture verses to back up my post, email me. I
welcome it gladly.

Since you have no evidence that scripture reflects the will of God, the
verses are meaningless as evidence. They are part of _faith_ only.

"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:9cm9ov84rfnjffnr6rumnleo3k7u4r1gnm@4ax.com...

In alt.talk.creationism, "Luke Johnston" <lukejohnston@cableone.net>
wrote in <vo9kqc616mrq5d@corp.supernews.com>:

Sir,
I agree. I also believe in a daily, personal relationship with God.

This

requires daily prayer and reading of the bible. It also requires weekly
fellowship with other Christians. How can you know God's will if you

don't

know Him? The only way to get to know him is through prayer, meeting

with

other Chrisitians, and reading His Word.

How do you know that it is God's will even after that? Why isn't it
something you persuaded yourself of or the will of Satan? What objective
test do you use?

However, if this person who claims he can get by with the Nicene creed

has

received the gift of salvation (which I doubt he has) he is looked is

saved,

forever, regardless of what he says or does. However, it wouldn't be

very

Christ-like if he spread the news that the God's Word wasn't needed,

would

it?

Sincerely,
Luke Johnston
lukejohnston@cableone.net
"IknowHimDoYou" <IknowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IknowHim-0810031413020001@pm4-08.kalama.com...

The Nicene Creed

Some wag has posted that all he needs is the Nicene creed but can do
without the Bible to be a Christian. This magnatude of ignorance is
astounding!

No one claimed this.

authority

left is that of man and he is most falllable and undependable. This
action leads only to the modern Church of St. Vitus.

User: "Og"
Title: Re: The Nicene Creed	09 Oct 2003 04:07:39 PM

I post from alt.talk.creationism. I did not add any of the other
newsgroups, but I didn't delete them either. This thread has drifted.
</