| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
24 May 2007 08:37:15 PM |
| Object: |
The Power Of Faith |
Faith in Jesus Christ is a marvelous thing. Something that frees us from the
penalty of sin. It is joyous and wondrous. Danny Hall writes about the power
of faith.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
THE POWER OF FAITH
By Danny Hall
One of the most frustrating things about being a human being is being a
human being! There are so many times when we just can't seem to do the right
thing, or think the right thing, or make the right decision. Even on our
best days there is always an undercurrent that isn't quite right.
About a week ago I came across a Dennis the Menace cartoon. A box of crayons
is lying on the floor, and there are drawings all over the wall. Dennis' mom
has put him in the corner. Dennis is saying, "Boy, I sure do wish life came
with an eraser!" Have you ever felt like that? So many times I have. The
good news is that there is an eraser. You just have to know where to look
for it.
This is the second message in a series on the statement in Scripture "The
just shall live by faith." This message will focus on the wonderful power of
faith. For the most part we'll study Paul's letter to the Romans, where he
uses this statement "The just shall live by faith" in his theme verses,
1:16-17. In order to understand this statement, we're going to do a quick
survey of the whole book of Romans, just as we surveyed the book of Habakkuk
in the last message (Discovery Paper 4671). Paul uses this statement as a
launch pad for all the rest of his discussion in the book.
Verses 1-17 of chapter 1 are the introduction of the letter, and it is much
longer than Paul's introductions usually are. It begins with powerful
statements about who Jesus Christ is. It talks of Paul's longing to come and
see the Romans and bring the gospel to them. It concludes with this powerful
statement of what the letter is going to be about in verses 16-17, and we'll
come back and study those two verses in just a moment.
In 1:18 Paul launches into a discussion of the plight of man. He talks about
the problem of sin and its downward spiral in life, about how we fail to
acknowledge who God is and give him the glory as our Creator and Lord. That
leads to all kinds of deterioration and destruction of the very moral fabric
of humanity. He spends the rest of chapter 1 talking about that.
In chapter 2 Paul speaks specifically to his Jewish brethren, who came to
believe that by the privileges given them by God as his chosen people, they
were special spiritually. Paul goes through chapter 2 and well into chapter
3 confronting that error. He reminds them that while they do have the Law
and all kinds of special privileges, and they are called by God to be the
conduit of his Messiah, to be the custodians of his truth and a light to the
world, they have abrogated that responsibility. They have become ingrown and
spiritually proud. Just as the pagans outside their nation have, they have
fallen short of what it means to be truly human, to be people who are alive
in God as we all were created to be.
But in 3:21 to the end of chapter 8, Paul gives us the wonderful news that
God has an answer for all the problems of humanity's sinfulness, whether the
pagan's or the Jew's. Paul builds a glorious exposition of who Christ is,
what he has accomplished for us, and how faith in Christ will help us. By
the time Paul gets to chapter 8, we are in a wonderful attitude of praise
and worship for the great salvation God has given us.
Chapters 9-11 have posed all kinds of difficulty for students of the book of
Romans. In these chapters Paul seems to be sidetracking into the problems
connected with the nation of Israel's being set aside as God's people and
the Gentiles' being "grafted in." But when we study our theme verses, we
will see that these chapters play an important part in the argument Paul is
unfolding as to what God is doing. It is directly related to what we learned
in the last message from the book of Habakkuk about trusting God and his
sovereign purposes.
Then in chapters 12-16, Paul finishes with a wonderful explanation of how
our life in Christ impacts us practically, day by day.
In summary, Paul is unfolding the glorious story of what Jesus Christ has
done for us and how it impacts our lives so that we are set free by him.
With that overview in mind, let's go back and look at our theme verses,
1:16-17:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation
to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it
the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written,
"But the righteous man shall live by faith."
In these two short verses Paul has managed to compress an incredible amount
of wonderful truth. Let's try to unpack it as we look at the key elements of
the verses.
The gospel proclaims Jesus
First Paul says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel.." What possible reason
could there be for him to be ashamed of the gospel? Some have theorized that
perhaps Paul was a rather obscure preacher from an unimportant portion of
the Roman Empire, and he was now planning to go to the capital city of Rome
and begin to proclaim Christ in the face of the powerful might of Rome, to
enter the teeth of the lion, so to speak. He might have been tempted to feel
insignificant in the larger scope of things.
That could be true, but it is not at the heart of what Paul is saying.
Possibly what Paul is speaking of here is his realization of what the plan
of salvation looks like in its entirety. There is no other book in Paul's
writings where he is more passionate and positive about his own Jewishness,
yet brokenhearted about the unbelief of his Jewish brethren. "Paul," we want
to ask, "didn't God promise the Jews, your people, that they would be the
conduit of the Messiah? Aren't they God's chosen people? How is it that now
the Jews seem to be set aside in favor of the Gentiles?"
This hearkens back to Habakkuk. Remember, Habakkuk too was concerned about
the fate of the Jewish nation. God said he would raise up the Chaldeans
(Babylonians) to come in and discipline them. Habakkuk was aghast that God
would raise up Gentiles to discipline the Jews! He couldn't understand and
was actually angry and disillusioned with God. But God told Habakkuk to step
back and take in the bigger picture. The sovereign God of the universe was
working out his purposes, and Habakkuk needed to trust him.
In the same way Paul as a Jew might be tempted to be ashamed of the fact
that the Jews had failed, and that this church he is planning to visit is a
predominantly Gentile church, yet he, a former Pharisee, is the apostle to
the Gentiles! This might seem like a crazy plan to him.
But regardless of the reason he is tempted to feel ashamed, what Paul wants
us to realize is that he is not ashamed, because God is doing something
greater than either Jew or Gentile could ever imagine! God has done
something so significant, so wonderful, so amazing, that it transcends even
the distinction between Jew and Gentile. This is God's sovereign work for
the whole world, which he had always intended for the nation of Israel, now
fulfilled!
The second word I want us to look at in Paul's theme verses is "gospel." We
sometimes equate the word "gospel" with what we call the plan of salvation,
in other words a description of what we believed to become a Christian. But
that's not the way Paul uses the word "gospel." Paul is talking about the
proclamation of who Jesus Christ is--the Son of God, crucified, risen, and
reigning as Lord--the Savior. In the opening five verses of Romans he
writes:
"Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for
the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the
holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David
according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the
resurrection from the dead, according to the spirit of holiness, Jesus
Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name's
sake."
The gospel is all about Jesus Christ. It is the proclamation of Christ that
draws people to him, and the proclamation of Christ was at the center of all
that Paul was. In 1 Corinthians 2:2, where Paul is reflecting on his first
visit to the Corinthians, he reminds them, "I determined to know nothing
among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
The gospel is able to save
Paul then says about this gospel that it is "the power of God for
salvation." The word "power" is the great Greek word dunamis (from which we
have derived our word "dynamite"). That word simply means to be able. It
speaks of the inherent ability of the gospel to do what it's supposed to do.
Paul makes this same point in Galatians 3:10-14, which is the other place
where he quotes the statement "The just shall live by faith":
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is
written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the
book of the Law, to perform them." Now that no one is justified by the Law
before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith."
However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them
shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having
become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is every one who hangs on
a tree"--in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to
the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through
faith.
Paul reminds us here, as he teaches in Romans, that there is no inherent
power in the Law to make us new or to change our lives. Rather, as the Law
directed us toward holiness in God, it would expose us as being sinful. In
contrast to that, Paul says that the gospel, the message of who Jesus Christ
is and what he has done, is able to save us. The gospel is where we can find
the "eraser" we're looking for. The gospel of Jesus Christ is how things can
be made new, as we trust in him.
One of the manifestations of our spiritual weakness as human beings is that
we tend to settle for less than what God offers. There are at least four
categories that we fall into in this.
Some people's response to their spiritual need is despair. "I can't change
anything. I'm awful. The world is awful. There's no spiritual hope."
Another category is what I call fatalism. "I'm not getting any better, and I
can't do anything about it. I'm just doing what I can." It amounts to
drudgery. There may be those days when an inspirational speaker or a crisis
helps people in this category to rise to the occasion for a moment or two,
so that things go better. But then they fall back into the rut of drudgery
again. A lot of us live this way.
A third category we might fall into when settling for less than what God
offers is humanistic pride. People in this category cling to accomplishments
or success to feel good about themselves. It may be in the arts or sports or
their profession. It may be in doing enough community service so everybody
will think they're the most wonderful person in the community. Maybe they
experience this through their children. There's a certain task where they
get a little more accomplished, and people recognize them for that. There is
nothing inherently wrong with that, of course, but some people settle for
that as if that were what life is all about--human applause. Every morning
they get up and run back to the rat race saying, "I've got to work harder,
write a few more lines of code. Maybe we'll go public in the next six months
and I'll be the richest guy on my block!"
The fourth category is religious pride. Some develop an attitude in life of
being the most spiritual person they can be to feel good about themselves.
Every religion, Christian and non-Christian, develops around its faith
system a set of beliefs about what a good Christian (Muslim, Mormon, etc.)
is. We have one in this church. If I were to ask you what a good Christian
looks like, certain behaviors and religious activities, "Christian" things,
which, again, are not bad in themselves, would come to mind: go to church
every Sunday, read the Bible every day, etc. But when we define ourselves by
how many good things we do and come to feel that these things are the
essence of life, then we've settled for less than God offers us.
In contrast to these lesser responses to spiritual need, Paul says,
indirectly in Galatians 3:10-14 and specifically in Romans 1:16, that the
gospel itself is the power of God for salvation. The gospel will give us
something far beyond anything we ever dreamed of. It's what will break the
back of all that despair, drudgery, or pride, whether humanistic or
religious, and set us free to experience the real life that God wants to
offer. The gospel tells us there is something more out there to be had!
There is something real, in relationship with God himself, by which we can
be set free from what holds us down, as we believe. This is the real power
of the gospel.
Life-changing faith
Paul goes on to say in 1:17 that in this powerful gospel, to everyone who
believes, the righteousness of God is revealed. There are basically two
positions on what he means by the righteousness of God. One is that this is
God's own moral quality of righteousness. The other is that this is the
righteousness of God that is given to us. Throughout the book of Romans Paul
actually uses this phrase both ways. Depending on the context, he emphasizes
one meaning or the other. In 3:21ff especially, he uses both meanings when
he talks about God's being shown to be a righteous and just God while also
giving to us his righteousness.
I think, however, that in this theme verse Paul is using the first meaning.
This display of the gospel reveals to us that God himself is a righteous
God. We might question his ways and motives at times, but the gospel, the
finished work of Jesus Christ, declares to the world that God himself is
righteous and he has acted justly in his world, even as he has acted
lovingly and wonderfully and graciously toward all who would believe.
Paul then says the righteousness of God is revealed "from faith to faith."
Now if you were to look up the phrase "from faith to faith" in a number of
commentaries on the book of Romans, you'd find umpteen different opinions on
what it means. The Greek text literally says, "Out of faith unto faith."
Sometimes the interpretation of this phrase is that it's intensifying or
emphasizing the idea of faith. Another interpretation points to the
progression of our walk with God; it begins with faith in Christ and
continues with faith in Christ.
But I'd like to suggest another interpretation. The Greek word for faith is
also the word for faithfulness, and depending on its context, it can be used
that way. For instance, in Romans 3:3, Paul clearly uses this word in
reference to God's faithfulness: "What then? If some did not believe, their
unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?" So, in this
case, I would suggest that "faith to faith" is a hinge phrase in Romans
1:17. The righteousness of God is revealed from his faithfulness to our
faith. That is, based on God's righteous faithfulness to fulfill all his
promises and accomplish his works, we place our faith in him. The powerful
gospel has revealed him this way, and as we encounter his wonderful,
transforming grace, the gospel comes home to us personally and powerfully,
changing our lives.
Real life
That brings us finally to the little statement "The righteous man shall live
by faith." Interestingly, Paul's quote from Habakkuk is not a direct
translation of either the Hebrew text or the Septuagint, the Greek
translation of the Old Testament used in Paul's time. Paul is basically
giving us his own paraphrase.
People have struggled as to how to translate this statement. It is most
often translated as we read it above. But an alternate reading, which you
may find in the margin notes of your Bible, is also compelling: "The just by
faith shall live." There are strong arguments in favor of each, but in light
of the whole course of the argument of Romans, I believe the second reading
fits better. Paul is saying to us, "The just by faith shall live." What he
is inviting us to recognize is that this powerful gospel he is talking
about, and which he is going to explain, gives us something more than just
some sort of new religion--it gives us real life. The pagans can try to find
life in self-indulgence or accomplishment. The Jews can search for it in
religious privilege as well as in the ethnicity, legalism, and social
structure that they have built. You can search for life in whatever you
want, but you will find life only in Christ. The one who is justified by
faith in Christ is the one who lives.
What God is offering to us is life that is outside of the normal human
experience. An interesting study for you to do would be to trace out the
word "life" or "live" in the New Testament using a concordance. The New
Testament concept of life is not mere existence. It is a special kind of
life, a life that is empowered by God himself. What Paul wants us to see is
that in the gospel of Christ, what has kept us in bondage is broken and we
are set free.
At the end of each major section of the book of Romans, Paul's heart breaks
forth in a song of praise. At the end of Romans 8, after his long discourse
on the wonders of Christ and of his salvation, he offers a beautiful song of
praise to God that concludes with these words: "For I am convinced that
neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created
thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ
Jesus our Lord" (8:38-39).
At the end of chapter 11, after going through his discussion about how the
gospel is for the Jew and Gentile alike in God's sovereign purposes in the
unfolding plan of salvation, Paul writes: "Oh, the depth of the riches both
of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and
unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became
His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to
him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be
the glory forever. Amen" (11:33-36).
At the end of chapter 16, after giving us wonderful instruction about how
the gospel is to impact our life and giving his final greetings to his
friends, he says, "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my
gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the
mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is
manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the
commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations,
leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ,
be the glory forever. Amen" (16:25-29).
The power of the gospel is that we can be made new, we can be made alive.
Remember those four categories of settling for less than what God offers?
What the gospel does is turn those things on their heads.
In the place of despair, the gospel offers hope. I will not be forever
caught in the bondage of frailty and sinfulness. I can be set free. There is
hope for new, eternal life and real victory.
In the place of fatalism, the gospel gives joy, a heart of praise and wonder
that God has done something amazing to set us free.
In the place of humanistic pride, the gospel brings peace. I do not have to
get up tomorrow morning and prove myself again. I don't have to accomplish
something so that someone will pat me on the back so I can justify my
existence. God reaches into the turmoil of that rat race and gives me peace.
I am truly loved, eternally welcome in the presence of God.
And finally, in the place of religious pride, there is freedom. I don't have
to worry whether I'm doing enough for God to make the grade, whether I've
put enough money in the plate, whether I need to go feed the poor this
afternoon, or come to church on Wednesday as well as Sunday. We are freed
from that kind of bondage. God's acceptance of us derives from what Jesus
Christ has done on our behalf. Through him we are set free to just be who
God created us to be, fully alive in him.
In the last message we saw that faith means having the perspective of God's
sovereignty. Added to that, we can now see that faith means trusting in the
gospel of Jesus Christ, the power of which break the bonds of our sinfulness
and sets us free to experience the freedom of life in him.
Scripture quotations are taken from New American Standard Bible, ã 1960,
1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 The Lockman Foundation.
Used by permission.
Catalog No. 4672
Romans 1:16, 17; Galatians 3:10-14
2nd Message
Danny Hall
June 25, 2000
Copyright © 2000 Discovery Publishing, a ministry of Peninsula Bible Church.
This data file is the sole property of Discovery Publishing, a ministry of
Peninsula Bible Church. It may be copied only in its entirety for
circulation freely without charge. All copies of this data file must contain
the above copyright notice. This data file may not be copied in part,
edited, revised, copied for resale or incorporated in any commercial
publications, recordings, broadcasts, performances, displays or other
products offered for sale, without the written permission of Discovery
Publishing. Requests for permission should be made in writing and addressed
to Discovery Publishing, 3505 Middlefield Rd. Palo Alto, CA. 94306-3695.
.
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 05:13:30 AM |
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May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 07:25:23 AM |
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On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 04:47:25 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
John
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 04:56:09 PM |
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"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:m4me53t9pt5pfk3cl1tvjm2b1bfpp7tk1b@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
I got it, I got it! I'm a math major...my WIFE is the English major and
teaches at the local community college (right now she's between semesters).
She'll throw a hissy fit if she sees this! LOL!
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
Nah...it's "I know a guy WHAT sells cars." LOL!
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
26 May 2007 12:45:49 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 25 May 2007 17:56:09 -0400, "Carl" <>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:m4me53t9pt5pfk3cl1tvjm2b1bfpp7tk1b@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
I got it, I got it! I'm a math major...my WIFE is the English major and
teaches at the local community college (right now she's between semesters).
She'll throw a hissy fit if she sees this! LOL!
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
Nah...it's "I know a guy WHAT sells cars." LOL!
Ah Hah hah hah hah hah!! That's FUNNY!
No, the simple rule is: You NEVER use "that" to modify a human.
It will ALWAYS be, "I know a guy WHO sells cars."
Just like you wouldn't say, "I have a dog who can do back flips."
You'd say, " I have a dog THAT can do back flips."
john w
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
26 May 2007 09:06:33 PM |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 14:47:25 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Can't wait! That should be good for a hearty laugh if nothing else,
short-bus!!!!!!!!!!!
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 07:59:51 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:06:33 -0400, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Fri, 25 May 2007 14:47:25 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Can't wait! That should be good for a hearty laugh if nothing else,
short-bus!!!!!!!!!!!
It is truly amazing how often you give such ridiculous vent to such
low-minded, small-minded HATE.
Where's your Christianity/
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
26 May 2007 09:05:46 PM |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 14:47:25 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
Dream on, O wannabe literate...........
you claimed 'sew' and 'sow' were the same, and when confronted, lied
and claimed that was how it was spelled Seattle.
What a crock.
I also CLEARLY recall 'the runt of the letter'.............. so
don't go mouthing off to others about THEIR Grammar and spelling until
you look after YOUR OWN errors, short bus.
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 07:58:49 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:05:46 -0400, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On Fri, 25 May 2007 14:47:25 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
Dream on, O wannabe literate...........
you claimed 'sew' and 'sow' were the same, and when confronted, lied
and claimed that was how it was spelled Seattle.
Repost the post where I said that it was spelled that way in Seattle,
or admit you lied!
What a crock.
I also CLEARLY recall 'the runt of the letter'.............. so
Clearly a typo.
You sure get your knickers in a twist over typos, psycho nurse.
don't go mouthing off to others about THEIR Grammar and spelling until
you look after YOUR OWN errors, short bus.
Go make love with yourself, short bus.
Your hate is an UGLY thing!
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 02:14:10 PM |
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On Sun, 27 May 2007 05:58:49 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
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From: john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.bible,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal
Subject: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith
Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 05:58:49 -0700
Message-ID: <o10j5358aoeifs0n45qpvc6ncu7idsijmg@4ax.com>
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Go make love with yourself, short bus.
Insane sexual inappropriateness duly archived, short-bus.
.
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| User: "vince garcia" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 06:23:25 AM |
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john w
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
John
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
LOL--put me on the list for a copy when you get the book done! :)
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 08:00:40 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:23:25 GMT, vince garcia
<vggarciaxx@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
john w
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
John
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
LOL--put me on the list for a copy when you get the book done! :)
What a strange comment!
I'm betting you'll find a copy at your local bookstore.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
27 May 2007 02:15:23 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 06:00:40 -0700, john w <johnw<no>@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Vince Garcia sez:
LOL--put me on the list for a copy when you get the book done! :)
What a strange comment!
I'm betting you'll find a copy at your local bookstore.
I'm betting he won't!
.
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| User: "vince garcia" |
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| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
28 May 2007 06:31:16 AM |
|
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john w
x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:23:25 GMT, vince garcia
<vggarciaxx@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
john w
x-no-archive: yes
On 25 May 2007 05:25:23 -0700, wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
On May 25, 6:13 am, "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" <kill...@killgod.com>
wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
Your disrespect and lack of tolerance is duly noted. I'll keep praying
for you.
Not to quibble, Carl, but ONLY to help a Christian brother improve
himself. Your grammar is bad above.
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance..." would be known as a "plural
subject'... "disrespect" and "tolerance."
Plural subjects require plural nouns. "is" is singular. You need
"are."
"Your disrespect and lack of tolerance ARE duly noted.
By the way, (not meant as a plug) I will hopefully have a short book
on grammar out within the next year.
Working title, "Better Grammar In 7 Days."
Some of the worst English (American) grammar "boog-a-boos" are the
easiest to fix.
such as "when to use "who" and when to use "that".
ex: I know a guy that sells cars.
correct?
John
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
LOL--put me on the list for a copy when you get the book done! :)
What a strange comment!
I'm betting you'll find a copy at your local bookstore.
Me never did well at grammar, and have always struggled with some of the
issues you've been dealing with. (mitigate vs militate as a recent
example.) Making it simple could probably help a lot of people
.
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| User: "Rod" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 10:55:27 AM |
|
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SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here.
Go back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod
--
Gal 6:7 Be not tricked; God is not made sport of: for whatever seed a
man puts in, that will he get back as grain.
Gal 6:8 Because he who puts in the seed of the flesh will of the flesh
get the reward of death; but he who puts in the seed of the Spirit will
of the Spirit get the reward of eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not get tired of well-doing; for at the right time
we will get in the grain, if we do not give way to weariness.
Gal 6:10 So then, as we have the chance, let us do good to all men, and
specially to those who are of the family of the faith.
.
|
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| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 01:11:36 PM |
|
|
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here. Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans 12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry -- step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
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| User: "Rod" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 03:45:42 PM |
|
|
Carl wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here. Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans 12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry -- step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
You are right Carl, it upsets me. I stand corrected.
Rod
--
Gal 6:7 Be not tricked; God is not made sport of: for whatever seed a
man puts in, that will he get back as grain.
Gal 6:8 Because he who puts in the seed of the flesh will of the flesh
get the reward of death; but he who puts in the seed of the Spirit will
of the Spirit get the reward of eternal life.
Gal 6:9 And let us not get tired of well-doing; for at the right time
we will get in the grain, if we do not give way to weariness.
Gal 6:10 So then, as we have the chance, let us do good to all men, and
specially to those who are of the family of the faith.
.
|
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|
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| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 02:19:06 PM |
|
|
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here. Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans 12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry -- step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves
--
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
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| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 03:12:29 PM |
|
|
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect. We do not have that perfection and to react out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
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| User: "Michael" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
29 May 2007 12:32:07 PM |
|
|
In article <f37fve$oor$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote:
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect.
Are you saying that a man who has actually committed murder can not
express righteous indignation about murder? Are you saying that only
jurors who have never transgressed the law are capable of serving on a
jury?
We do not have that perfection and to react out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
Righteouos indignation does not imply anger, it implys love.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
--
May God Bless You
Michael
.
|
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
29 May 2007 09:51:04 PM |
|
|
in article mikeburt-2905071332110001@192.168.1.104, Michael at
mikeburt@ix.netcom.com wrote on 5/29/07 1:32 PM:
In article <f37fve$oor$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect.
Are you saying that a man who has actually committed murder can not
express righteous indignation about murder? Are you saying that only
jurors who have never transgressed the law are capable of serving on a
jury?
We do not have that perfection and to react out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
Righteouos indignation does not imply anger, it implys love.
Only to those incapable of any other kind of love...
Paul
.
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| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 05:04:14 PM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:12:29 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect. We do not have that perfection and to react out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
I disagree! If there were not lessons in His violence in the temple,
we would not have the stories.
I believe that we have those stories because they indicate that when
we believe we are right, we indeed do have the moral obligation to
resist, and to fight back.
There is no HINT in those temple narratives that Jesus was only
allowed to get violent and fight "because He was perfect."
I think too often, we want to believe He walked 1 foot above the
ground. No, He took flesh for ONE purpose (among the many) of showing
us how to live.
And when we see God's house being corrupted, we are to do something
about it.
If you believe Jesus was non-violent, I don't find that in scripture.
I see "turn the cheek" as applying to "do not return INSULT for
insult". If you don't know, a "slap on the face" in Jesus' day was a
form of INSULT.
He is saying there "do not return an insult for an insult", your
"don't return ad hominems" of an earlier post.
Paul also taught us that we are required to submit to our government.
That MAY require us to take up arms and go off to war.
If we can be require to take up arms to defend our nation, we are
equally obligated to take up arms in our homes, to defend our
families.
john w
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carl" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
25 May 2007 09:19:24 PM |
|
|
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:h2ne539mgfelrt7f1e0om1328kh3jkbggf@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:12:29 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity
here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has
really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple,
and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that
sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect. We do not have that perfection and to react
out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
I disagree! If there were not lessons in His violence in the temple,
we would not have the stories.
John, I'm not saying there are no lessons to be learned in that passage.
What I _am_ saying is that the passage does not give Christians the excuse
to committ violence whenever they feel they have been wronged. Fighting the
good fight of faith isn't going about and slugging someone who insults you
or insulting them back. It is not giving back evil when evil is given. That
was basically my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough. One thing which
kindled the indignation of Jesus was the place where they were carried on
(the profanation involved in such things being done within an enclosure
sacred to the worship and service of God) and the effect of this in
destroying in the minds of the worshippers the sanctity that should attach
to everything on which that worship cast its shadow. Jesus was turnign away
the ungodliness from the temple. We, as Christians, should turn away the
ungodliness in many things. What Jesus did He did as one having authority,
as a Son in his own house. However, Christians should be extremely cautious
in how they turn away ungodliness and look closely at their motivation. In
Isaiah 56:7 the temple is called God's "house of prayer" but those using it
to sell doves for sacrifices, money-changing, etc. were violating God's
provision and Jesus had the authority to set things straight. However to
attempt to use this passage (as well as the other instance of Jesus clearing
out a temple) to return insult when insulted goes against such passages as
Luke 6:28 (bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you) and
Romans 12:14 (bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse). Plus
there are several examples where we are specifically taught to respond via
peaceful means.
I believe that we have those stories because they indicate that when
we believe we are right, we indeed do have the moral obligation to
resist, and to fight back.
So let me try to understand your point...if we are insulted by someone on
Usenet we are to respond in kind? How can this be in light of such passages
as Luke 6:28 and Romans 12:14? From the Adam Clarke commentary on Romans
12:14...
"Give good words, or pray for those who speak bad words to you, katarasthe,
who make dire imprecations against you. Bless them, pray for them, and on no
account curse them, whatever the provocation may be. Have the loving,
forgiving mind that was in your Lord."
I believe Mr. Clarke is correct on this and to respond with insult,
especially out of anger is not what we, as Christians, are to do. "Fighting
the good fight of faith" does not mean engaging in ad hominem attacks.
There is no HINT in those temple narratives that Jesus was only
allowed to get violent and fight "because He was perfect."
Actually He was allowed to because it was His temple. He had the authority.
No one else did then and no one has that authority now. Only Jesus.
I think too often, we want to believe He walked 1 foot above the
ground. No, He took flesh for ONE purpose (among the many) of showing
us how to live.
And when we see God's house being corrupted, we are to do something
about it.
And we are given clear instructions to correct things in love.
If you believe Jesus was non-violent, I don't find that in scripture.
I never said nor implied that Jesus was non-violent, but I am saying His
motivations, His reasons, etc. ARE perfect. We, on the other hand, are very,
very imperfect. Therefore, those using Jesus' cleansing of the temple as
justification for violence tend to be off-base.
I see "turn the cheek" as applying to "do not return INSULT for
insult".
I agree and that was one point I was trying to make.
If you don't know, a "slap on the face" in Jesus' day was a
form of INSULT.
I did indeed know that. Discoverd it in one of my study Bibles believe it or
not.
He is saying there "do not return an insult for an insult", your
"don't return ad hominems" of an earlier post.
That's my point!
Paul also taught us that we are required to submit to our government.
Jesus also pointed out we are to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.
That MAY require us to take up arms and go off to war.
True, true.
If we can be require to take up arms to defend our nation, we are
equally obligated to take up arms in our homes, to defend our
families.
We have no disagreement there. Defending oneselves and one's family against
violent intruders for example is completely proper and acceptable for
Christians.
It seems to me that we are on the same page after all.
May God bless,
Carl
website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
.
|
|
|
| User: "john w" |
|
| Title: Re: The crock of crap Of Faith |
26 May 2007 01:18:52 AM |
|
|
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:19:24 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:h2ne539mgfelrt7f1e0om1328kh3jkbggf@4ax.com...
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 25 May 2007 16:12:29 -0400, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"Michael" <mikeburt@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-2505071519060001@192.168.1.100...
In article <f378ss$i1f$1@news.utelfla.com>, "Carl" <saints@nettally.com>
wrote:
"Rod" <kc0oeb@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:135e1nbb0ud88ae@corp.supernews.com...
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim wrote:
May God bless,
Carl
ah, another brainwashed christian moron.
At least he is gifted with a brain to be washed, and here you
have been railing and hurling insults and vulgarities against
a God that you say doesn't exist ! You want to discuss brain
washing and lameness, lets start with you ! What kind of
morons enter the christian groups and rail against a God they
say cannot, or does not exist ? What manner of idiot expends
valuable life force energy trying to shove disbelief in the
Christian God down our throats while all the time
whining and complaining because a christian
somewhere, sometime gave him back what he so generously handed
out to others ? It's because you're not in control of your own
mind, and looking for a fight.
We don't respect or want your lack of faith, or your stupidity
here.
Go
back to your own and wallow in your garbage to your hearts content.
Rod, I know that person makes you upset, but please remember Romans
12:17:
"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone"
Try to not engage in ad hominem attack. If you don't mind, I would like
to
share something that helps me whenever I come across someone very
disagreeable, even disgusting in their posts that may make me angry --
step
away from the keyboard and stop for a short prayer asking God for calm
and a
clear mind and the best words possible in which to respond. He has
really
helped me in the past with disagreeable folks like this.
Good advice; however, do not also overlook:
John Mark 11:15* And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the
temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple,
and
overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that
sold
doves
Michael, I am familiar with that but that is righteous indignation from
Jesus Christ who is perfect. We do not have that perfection and to react
out
of anger is not in harmony with scripture nor is it supportable by the
passage to which you refer.
I disagree! If there were not lessons in His violence in the temple,
we would not have the stories.
John, I'm not saying there are no lessons to be learned in that passage.
What I _am_ saying is that the passage does not give Christians the excuse
to committ violence whenever they feel they have been wronged.
True. And if you reread my point, my comments, I didn't say that if
your neighbor calls you a dirtbag, you're supposed to knock him on his
keester.
What we do about the wrong must be proportionate.
Let me give you an example of my point. A few months back, a guy
happened to look out his front window and saw a would-be thief INSIDE
the guy's EXPENSIVE sports car. He yelled to a friend, and they dashed
out before the guy could get away with the expensive car. As they
struggled, bare-handed, the two man managed to overcome the would-be
thief, but in overcoming him, their anger turned to rage, and they
literally beat the guy to death.
He was taken to the hospital, and what was left of him died in the
hospital.
The DA refused to file charges, because the man "was defending his
property", and if the thief hadn't wanted to be beaten to death, he
should not have tried to steal a very expensive automobile. The
general comment was "when you choose crime as your "mode of earning a
living", you are stuck with the consequences.
I don't personally believe those two men did anything wrong.
Fighting the
good fight of faith isn't going about and slugging someone who insults you
or insulting them back.
Nor did I say it was. You are emotionally not understanding what I
said or intended, and you are WAY over-reacting.
I said that you do not return insult for insult.
It is not giving back evil when evil is given.
You are now stating that "evil" is a given. Is it evil to resist when
someone threatens you?
If a man breaks into your home and has a gun, is it wrong to grab
YOUR gun, return fire, and kill the man in order to defend your home
and your loved ones?
I think that's not wrong.
That
was basically my point. I guess I wasn't clear enough.
Yet you are quite certain that I am wrong, but you haven't even
touched on what I actually said or meant.
One thing which
kindled the indignation of Jesus was the place where they were carried on
(the profanation involved in such things being done within an enclosure
sacred to the worship and service of God) and the effect of this in
destroying in the minds of the worshippers the sanctity that should attach
to everything on which that worship cast its shadow.
Agreed. BUT the point you made as I understood it was that ONLY JESUS
was allowed to become violent, BECAUSE only HE was PURE enough that
"acting out" was not "a sin."
That runs counter to the rest of scripture, which teaches us how to
live, not merely how Jesus lived! I maintain, if there were not
lessons for US to be learned from the temple narratives OTHER than
"Jesus was allowed BECAUSE He was God!" that doesn't help you and me!
There is NO point in God giving us a PERFECT model that we cannot
possibly follow.
Jesus was turnign away
the ungodliness from the temple. We, as Christians, should turn away the
ungodliness in many things. What Jesus did He did as one having authority,
as a Son in his own house.
And He likewise taught us through the gospel, through sending out
apostles with full empowerment ("go, preach, heal, cast out demons")
that we are also empowered. "You do not do amazing things BECAUSE you
do not BELIEVE!"
However, Christians should be extremely cautious
in how they turn away ungodliness and look closely at their motivation.
Ah! You are one who preaches "extreme caution."
I suppose I could be so cautious, I'd be afraid to BREATHE.
I see the apostles preaching BOLDLY.
I believe that we are all cognizant and aware of the laws of our land.
In
Isaiah 56:7 the temple is called God's "house of prayer" but those using it
to sell doves for sacrifices, money-changing, etc. were violating God's
provision and Jesus had the authority to set things straight.
Correct. And when you and I observe Benny Hinn and the like
perverting the gospel, we are likewise REQUIRED to oppose them!
However to
attempt to use this passage (as well as the other instance of Jesus clearing
out a temple)
Yes, He BEGAN His ministry with a temple cleansing, and 3 years later,
HE wrapped up with a 2nd. (to let us know that in the intervening 3
years, "nothing had changed.")
to return insult when insulted goes against such passages as
Luke 6:28 (bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you) and
Romans 12:14 (bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse).
Do you understand that you continue to flip flop? At first, you were
telling me that we can't resort to violence when we are insulted?
Plus
there are several examples where we are specifically taught to respond via
peaceful means.
AGAIN, I believe that anyone who teaches that "non-violence" is ALWAYT
"correct" is misinterpreting.
I believe that we have those stories because they indicate that when
we believe we are right, we indeed do have the moral obligation to
resist, and to fight back.
So let me try to understand your point...if we are insulted by someone on
Usenet we are to respond in kind?
Depends on who is doing the insulting.
If I get angry and insult you (we are human/it happens), you are
SUPPOSED to not fight back, because you know your brother in the Lord
(me) is having a bad moment..
HOWEVER, if someone you know has spiritual issues (I firmly believe
that Phar Lap (Kluge), walksalone, Libertarius, and Steve Winter are
demon possessed), then we are to confront them and give them no
ground.
That's the view of Dr Walter Martin (The Kingdom Of The Cults) who
was a pastor at my church way back when.
I agree with him.
When Jesus was confronted with the demon possessed (woman?) at the
temple one day, and she shrieked something like "What do we have to do
with you, Jesus?", He wasn't kind. He wasn't what some would call
"compassi | | | | | | | | |
