The Real Plan

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Pastor Dave"
Date:	14 Aug 2007 01:55:48 PM
Object:	The Real Plan

To 'Ultra' simplify the entire Bible let's keep in mind that
the one and only theme is to show the fact that Adam lost
the kingdom to Satan and from that time on God selected
a special people, lets refer to them as the Israelites, who
were to perform daily ritualistic tasks (animal blood
sacrifices) to make possible that the sins could be rolled
ahead until the Second Adam (Christ) would come and
win back the kingdom with His precious blood. This was
accomplished at Calvary, but from Calvary to the Second
Coming in A.D.70 there was a time frame of forty years
(one generation) known as the Transitional Period. This
Transitional Period was to give all peoples especially the
Jews time to convert from the Old Covenant (physical
laws bondage) to the New Covenant (spiritual Grace
freedom).
There is now only one special group of people and it is not
the Jews, it is anyone who belongs to Christ Jesus known
as the Church. The Church is now the Israel of God. Jesus
does not have different special groups of people. There is
only one plan of salvation and one people under our Lord.
This being the utmost meaning and intention of the
Scriptures you will have to constantly keep in mind that
all events mentioned in the Scriptures are designed for
this one and only central purpose and time frame. Do
not allow such modern teachings as 'Futurism' to complicate
this one and only fact into a gap of 2000 plus years to date
(thought of as Plan 'B') with it's many hermeneutical
twists, erroneous postponement theories, ever changing
'date setting' perplexities and typical false prophecies!
Let's give ALL the credit and honor to the LORD and not
to man and especially not to Satan which has been totally
defeated! Embrace our GOD given freedoms and stand
with the Modern Reformation movement to expose the fear,
bondage and intimidation tactics of these false futuristic
world ending doctrine mongers and supposed 'pending
tribulation' teachings now! And earnestly search the
Scriptures daily as did the faithful Bereans whose efforts
are now accurately recorded in the book of Acts. This
will enable you to discern if certain teachings of men
are or are not true to the Scriptures...Sola Scriptura!
You are probably thinking to yourself now, "Boy, this guy
is mean-spirited and divisive!" Allow me to remind you
for instance that the USA with all of its freedom is quickly
being lost. The Christians that believe in these tragic
futurist misconceptions and a yet future rapture and a
near-by Armageddon have left their GOD-given posts
and privileges. This abandonment leaves the once-Christian
USA to say nothing about the rest of the world, to such
evils as the ACLU, the liberal judges, courts and law
makers, anti-creationism, anti-prayer, gay [same sex]
marriage, partial birth abortion, the total acceptance of
porn of every degree, human cloning, removing of the
Ten Commandments, the homo-sexuals, the Family Planning
Centers and child molesters such as NAMBLA [Man Boy Love
Association which is backed by the ACLU], just to mention
only a very few! Also be aware that these false leaders
are the same ones that are advising our decision-making
Presidents and is controlling the Jewish situation in Israel
[A supposed special people of GOD] by way of a bankrupt
agenda.
What will you say to GOD when asked about these evils?
You will have no choice but to say "Oh, I was told by my
preacher or my TV evangelist that the world had to become
more and more evil so that you could come back and rapture
us out." The LORD will say to you, "Didn't you read the
Bible that I had so carefully preserved for you over the
many centuries? I told you in my very own Words that
the exact opposite was true in so many ways and so many
times!" I know what I will say: “LORD, I tried to warn
them.”
Note of Importance:
If you think that I am overstating our situation how would
you explain one of the latest judicial decisions where not
only your land but all of your property can be taken under
the newly rewritten law of Eminent Domain? What made us
free men in a free country was the fact that man could own
his own land. Now anyone [even contractors] can take your
land for a variety of reasons which makes us none other than
Indentured Servants [bondsmen]. We will continue to pay
very high and ever increasingly higher taxes while
maintaining this land [your properties] until the time comes
when that someone wants your property for whatever purpose.
And what about the evil subject matter that is being forced
up our children in the public schools! What saith you dear
servant?
If we are to ever have peace in the middle-east, If we are
ever to see an end of terrorism, we must have an impact
on American foreign policy. If we are to have an impact
on American foreign policy, we must have an impact on
American politicians. If we are to have an impact on
American politicians, we must have an impact on Christians.
We must proclaim the truth that the Church is “the Israel of
God”.
www.preteristplanet.com
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	14 Aug 2007 08:01:08 PM

"Pastor Dave"

To 'Ultra' simplify the entire Bible let's keep in mind
that
the one and only theme is to show the fact that Adam lost
the kingdom to Satan...

I don't believe God ever gave up His own ownership of the
world to Satan! However, I believe Satan trespassed and did
gain a foothold in the world of men. But I don't believe
it's therefore his world. It still belongs to men, and it
still belongs to God. Satan is a *trespasser.*

...and from that time on God selected
a special people, lets refer to them as the Israelites,
who
were to perform daily ritualistic tasks (animal blood
sacrifices) to make possible that the sins could be rolled
ahead until the Second Adam (Christ) would come and
win back the kingdom with His precious blood....

I don't think Jesus "won back" his own divine Kingdom. His
Kingdom has always been in existence, and he never lost it.
What he did with his blood is grant the forgiveness of sins
for the entire world, for all who have ever sinned against
God or who will ever sin against God. However, only those
who take advantage of this forgiveness by repenting will be
able to benefit from it.

...This was
accomplished at Calvary, but from Calvary to the Second
Coming in A.D.70 there was a time frame of forty years
(one generation) known as the Transitional Period. This
Transitional Period was to give all peoples especially the
Jews time to convert from the Old Covenant (physical
laws bondage) to the New Covenant (spiritual Grace
freedom).

There is no such thing as a "Transitional Period." It is
completely unbiblical. Jews were required *immediately* to
accept Jesus as Messiah. Jesus, however, would not force
himself upon them. Rather, he determined to offer himself
only to those who had eyes of faith. Jesus fully expected
the rest to oppose him in the end.

There is now only one special group of people and it is
not
the Jews, it is anyone who belongs to Christ Jesus known
as the Church. The Church is now the Israel of God.
Jesus
does not have different special groups of people. There
is
only one plan of salvation and one people under our Lord.

God does in fact have special groups of people--they're
called *nations.* God wanted diversity, and each nation has
its own "specialness." Some have called it the genius of
each people. Each national group has some kind of cultural
contribution to make in God's plan of creation. God wants
not only for the world to be filled with people--He also
wants a great diversity of people to populate this planet.
The Church, therefore is not "Israel." The Church includes
many nations, including Israel. But for now, the part of
Israel that is included in the Church is very small. I trust
one day that Israel as a nation will become Christian. That
is how I expect many nations to develop some day--into
Christian nations.
randy
.

User: "Mikal119"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	14 Aug 2007 08:57:48 PM

On Aug 14, 8:01 pm, "randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Pastor Dave"

To 'Ultra' simplify the entire Bible let's keep in mind
that
the one and only theme is to show the fact that Adam lost
the kingdom to Satan...

Accuser, by definition.And in no way can G-D be tricked or deceived
into letting some created being gain a foothold anywhere.You could say
a set of rules were laid and broken or or a command wasnt followed,
but an omniscient G_D has to know that from the creation of the world.
Therefore I will ignore your suggestion of a christianization of the
world-at least your view of it.
Have a great day!
<snip!>
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	17 Aug 2007 09:09:39 AM

"Mikal119"
"randy"

Accuser, by definition.And in no way can G-D be tricked or
deceived
into letting some created being gain a foothold
anywhere.You could say
a set of rules were laid and broken or or a command wasnt
followed,
but an omniscient G_D has to know that from the creation
of the world.
Therefore I will ignore your suggestion of a
christianization of the
world-at least your view of it.
Have a great day!

You too.
randy
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	15 Aug 2007 12:43:36 PM

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:01:08 -0700, "randy"
<rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote:

The Church, therefore is not "Israel."

According to Galatians 6:15-16, it is.
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	15 Aug 2007 02:49:53 PM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:43:36 -0400,
in article <6qe6c390hn8q5egailbo32uokte7vlvcv4@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:01:08 -0700, "randy"
<rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote:

The Church, therefore is not "Israel."

According to Galatians 6:15-16, it is.

No, it is not. Paul does not say peace be unto the church,
which is the Israel of God, he says peace to those who walk
according to the rule that circumcision avails nothing, AND
(kai) peace be to the Israel of God. The Israel of God is
Jews who believe in Christ as Savior, in contrast to the
Jewish legalizers Paul condemned, not the church in general.
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	15 Aug 2007 04:17:10 PM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:49:53 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:43:36 -0400,
in article <6qe6c390hn8q5egailbo32uokte7vlvcv4@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:01:08 -0700, "randy"
<rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote:

The Church, therefore is not "Israel."

According to Galatians 6:15-16, it is.

No, it is not.

Yes, it is. Your denial makes no difference to that fact.
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	17 Aug 2007 09:12:02 AM

"Pastor Dave"
®andy

The Church, therefore is not "Israel."

According to Galatians 6:15-16, it is.

No, it is not.

Yes, it is. Your denial makes no difference to that fact.

®andy made a great argument, and you just "clipped" it,
something you repeatedly claimed to me is wrong!
randy
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	17 Aug 2007 10:43:39 AM

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:12:02 -0700,
in article <mvWdnRbrJeIpMVjbnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@wavecable.com>,
"randy" <rkluth@wavecable.com> wrote:

"Pastor Dave"
®andy

The Church, therefore is not "Israel."

According to Galatians 6:15-16, it is.

No, it is not.

Yes, it is. Your denial makes no difference to that fact.

®andy made a great argument, and you just "clipped" it,
something you repeatedly claimed to me is wrong!
randy

He does that constantly. If anyone makes an unfavorable
remark about him, he plays the victim, claiming he's being
personally attacked. Then when he does the same thing to
others, he says he's just "telling the truth".
If he starts getting his ***** kicked, he immediately
grand-stands the accusation you snipped his words and points,
even when you can document the fact you didn't omit a single
word. Then he routinely snips whatever he wants from posts,
and selectively responds to whatever he wants.
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "randy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	19 Aug 2007 10:25:00 PM

"®andy"
"randy"

®andy made a great argument, and you just "clipped" it,
something you repeatedly claimed to me is wrong!

Yes, and worse he masquerades as a "pastor" and then uses
derrogatory, insulting words to defend himself. He's really
not a respectable Christian in my book. That's putting it
mildly.
randy
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	17 Aug 2007 10:58:52 AM

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:43:39 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

He does that constantly.

You are a demon.
--
A liberal is someone who will give away everything
except his/her own possessions.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	17 Aug 2007 03:03:47 PM

"Pastor Knave" < SATAN @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bdhbc31p4h1j65aiaep6jk2afjsnqdctfh@4ax.com...

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:43:39 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

He does that constantly.

You are a demon.

No, Satan aka legions, you're a demon convention.
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
ho echon hota akoueto
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matt 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: The Real Plan	14 Aug 2007 02:29:11 PM

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:55:48 -0400,
in article <50u3c3piptpdusslumfatjocjr3kfcbrhn@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

To 'Ultra' simplify the entire Bible let's keep in mind that
the one and only theme is to show the fact that Adam lost
the kingdom to Satan and from that time on God selected
a special people, lets refer to them as the Israelites, who
were to perform daily ritualistic tasks (animal blood
sacrifices) to make possible that the sins could be rolled
ahead until the Second Adam (Christ) would come and
win back the kingdom with His precious blood. This was
accomplished at Calvary, but from Calvary to the Second
Coming in A.D.70 there was a time frame of forty years
(one generation) known as the Transitional Period. This
Transitional Period was to give all peoples especially the
Jews time to convert from the Old Covenant (physical
laws bondage) to the New Covenant (spiritual Grace
freedom).

There is now only one special group of people and it is not
the Jews, it is anyone who belongs to Christ Jesus known
as the Church. The Church is now the Israel of God. Jesus
does not have different special groups of people. There is
only one plan of salvation and one people under our Lord.

This being the utmost meaning and intention of the
Scriptures you will have to constantly keep in mind that
all events mentioned in the Scriptures are designed for
this one and only central purpose and time frame. Do
not allow such modern teachings as 'Futurism' to complicate
this one and only fact into a gap of 2000 plus years to date
(thought of as Plan 'B') with it's many hermeneutical
twists, erroneous postponement theories, ever changing
'date setting' perplexities and typical false prophecies!
Let's give ALL the credit and honor to the LORD and not
to man and especially not to Satan which has been totally
defeated! Embrace our GOD given freedoms and stand
with the Modern Reformation movement to expose the fear,
bondage and intimidation tactics of these false futuristic
world ending doctrine mongers and supposed 'pending
tribulation' teachings now! And earnestly search the
Scriptures daily as did the faithful Bereans whose efforts
are now accurately recorded in the book of Acts. This
will enable you to discern if certain teachings of men
are or are not true to the Scriptures...Sola Scriptura!

You are probably thinking to yourself now, "Boy, this guy
is mean-spirited and divisive!" Allow me to remind you
for instance that the USA with all of its freedom is quickly
being lost. The Christians that believe in these tragic
futurist misconceptions and a yet future rapture and a
near-by Armageddon have left their GOD-given posts
and privileges. This abandonment leaves the once-Christian
USA to say nothing about the rest of the world, to such
evils as the ACLU, the liberal judges, courts and law
makers, anti-creationism, anti-prayer, gay [same sex]
marriage, partial birth abortion, the total acceptance of
porn of every degree, human cloning, removing of the
Ten Commandments, the homo-sexuals, the Family Planning
Centers and child molesters such as NAMBLA [Man Boy Love
Association which is backed by the ACLU], just to mention
only a very few! Also be aware that these false leaders
are the same ones that are advising our decision-making
Presidents and is controlling the Jewish situation in Israel
[A supposed special people of GOD] by way of a bankrupt
agenda.

What will you say to GOD when asked about these evils?
You will have no choice but to say "Oh, I was told by my
preacher or my TV evangelist that the world had to become
more and more evil so that you could come back and rapture
us out." The LORD will say to you, "Didn't you read the
Bible that I had so carefully preserved for you over the
many centuries? I told you in my very own Words that
the exact opposite was true in so many ways and so many
times!" I know what I will say: “LORD, I tried to warn
them.”

Note of Importance:

If you think that I am overstating our situation how would
you explain one of the latest judicial decisions where not
only your land but all of your property can be taken under
the newly rewritten law of Eminent Domain? What made us
free men in a free country was the fact that man could own
his own land. Now anyone [even contractors] can take your
land for a variety of reasons which makes us none other than
Indentured Servants [bondsmen]. We will continue to pay
very high and ever increasingly higher taxes while
maintaining this land [your properties] until the time comes
when that someone wants your property for whatever purpose.
And what about the evil subject matter that is being forced
up our children in the public schools! What saith you dear
servant?

If we are to ever have peace in the middle-east, If we are
ever to see an end of terrorism, we must have an impact
on American foreign policy. If we are to have an impact
on American foreign policy, we must have an impact on
American politicians. If we are to have an impact on
American politicians, we must have an impact on Christians.
We must proclaim the truth that the Church is “the Israel of
God”.

www.preteristplanet.com

Bring it on. The degree to which you encourage an attitude of
attack on Israel, is the degree to which you will come under
attack by God. Your claims that the destruction of a million
Jews in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.
Much confusion exists in the doctrine of last things, because
of failure to see a distinction between various groups of
God's people, particularly, the nation Israel, and the NT
church. While there are many similarities, and while they are
all part of one spiritual vine of believers, God makes it
quite clear, in passages such as Romans 11, that He does
indeed have a distinct and different eschatological program
for national Israel, and the church. This is confirmed right
up to the end, in such passages as Revelation 21:12-14.
Romans 11 shows that when the time of the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in (past tense, and it's referring to this
church age, when primarily Gentiles are coming to know Christ
as Savior), "all Israel shall [future tense] be saved"
(11:26). That this is not spiritual Israel, or all believers,
or even the remnant of those of national Israel who shall be
saved during this time of the fulness of the Gentiles (Romans
11:5) seems evident from the fact that it says this Israel is
the one who is blinded to and an enemy of the gospel, and the
same Israel with which God made irrevocable, unconditional
covenants, gifts, and promises (Rom. 11:27, 29; cf. Jer.
30-33).
Once the time of the fulness of the Gentiles is come in, it
says the deliverer shall come out of Sion (Rom. 11:26; Ps.
14:7; Isa. 59:20), and this presently blinded Israel who is an
enemy of the gospel "shall be saved" (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17;
54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23; 30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41;
33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31; 37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35;
Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21; Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep.
3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom. 11:26; Rev. 7:4). Thus, God's
program with the nation Israel, is to save her after the
fulness of the Gentiles has come in, in keeping with His
irrevocable gifts and promises to her (Rom. 11:29; Jer.
3:17-18; 31:31-37; 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22; 34:22-32;
37:21-28; 35:25-29; ).
..
And when we come to the book that best describes the last
events in prophecy, what do you know, the language shows it is
indeed national Israel who is the subject of God's dealing,
during the Tribulation, in Revelation 4-19.
The Tribulation is for Israel and the inhabitants of the earth
(Jer. 30:4-7; Mt. 24-25; Rom. 11:25ff.; Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13;
11:10; 12:12-13; 13:8, 12, 14; 14:6; 17:8). It is the time of
"Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), "concerning Israel and
concerning Judah" (Jer. 30:4), and Jacob shall be saved out of
it (Jer. 30:7), in keeping with God's gifts and promises to
Israel, which are without repentance (Rom. 11:29; Jer.
3:17-18; 31:31-37; 32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22; 34:22-32;
37:21-28; 35:25-29; ). This will occur after the fullness of
the Gentiles (church age) has come in (past), according to
Romans 11:25, and then, in the "manner written" (not "in the
manner of the fulness of the Gentiles coming in", as
preterists would have you believe, but which contradicts the
clear contrast between Israel and Gentiles throughout Romans
11), "all Israel shall be saved" (Isa. 11:11-16; 45:17;
54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23; 30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer 32:37-41;
33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31; 37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze. 40:1-48:35;
Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21; Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep.
3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom. 11:26; Rev. 7:4), when the
deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7; Isa.
59:20).
The 144,000 sealed from "all the tribes of the children of
Israel" (Rev. 7:4), are the "election" (Mt. 24:22, 24, 31;
Rom. 11:28), which shall be gathered from the four quarters of
the earth (Isa. 11:12; Mt. 24:31), and saved at the end of the
Tribulation, when Christ returns to earth with His wife, the
church (Isa. 50:1; Jer. 3:8; 2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:31-32; Rev.
19:7-8, 14), to the marriage supper of the Lamb on earth (Rev.
19:7, 9).
In Revelation 1-3, God is speaking to the church, and
addresses it as the "church" 18 times. Then, after John is
raptured to heaven, and the "things which shall be hereafter"
begin to fall upon the "inhabitants of the earth" (Rev. 4), we
do not see the word "church" even one time again until the
Tribulation is over in Revelation 22. Not only does God fail
to address this group of believers as the "church", when He
has just called the church the "church" 18 times, but He
specifically addresses His people of that time as the "tribes
of the children of Israel" (Rev. 7:4-8).
Then again, in Revelation 12, when God describes the central
players of the Tribulation, His people are referred to as the
woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet (cf.
Genesis 37:9), with a crown of twelve stars. This is the same
"woman which brought forth the man child" (clearly a reference
to the nation Israel), whom Satan persecuted. But the woman
fled, as the Jews were told to do (Matthew 24:15-20) when the
time of Tribulation comes.
Now some will overlook this conspicuous absence of the word
"church" in Revelation 4-19, and try to make the "tribes of
the children of Israel" the same church that God addressed as
"church" 18 times in Revelation 1-3. But nowhere in the NT,
is the whole church referred to as the "tribes of the children
of Israel". James, addressed the "twelve tribes scattered
abroad", but there is no reason to conclude this was for any
reason other than that he was addressing Jewish christians
during the transitional days of the church.
Further, the church did not give birth to the man child
(Christ), as the people of God did in Revelation 12. And
every member of the church is said to be sealed by God, the
moment they hear the gospel and believe (Ephesians 1:13). In
Revelation 12, these people are already being addressed as the
twelve tribes of Israel (by individual tribes), before they
are sealed.
If "tribes of Israel" is a reference to people who are already
the church, then why would the church have to be sealed a
second time, since they would already have been sealed the
moment they heard the gospel and the Spirit indwelled them?
No, this is not a reference to the church, but to national
Israel, who is God's people, and the subject of God's
program, during the Tribulation.
With this in mind, when we come to Matthew 24 (and Matthew was
primarily written to the Jews, regarding an explanation about
their Messiah), we may understand that God is referring to the
nation Israel, during the Tribulation, when He speaks of
gathering His elect (the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of
Israel (Revelation 7)) from the four quarters of the earth.
Notice, there are elect from the nation Israel, just as there
are elect people in the NT church (e.g. Rom. 8:33). There are
many similarities like this, between God's dealing with
national Israel, and the church, so that when we see the word
"elect", or "brothers", or "saints", we are not obligated to
conclude this could only possibly refer to the group of people
identified in the NT, as the "church".
Some would argue that there is only one "church", and that
therefore we cannot distinguish between God's people Israel,
and God's people the church. But in Matthew 16:18, Christ
apparently introduces the "church", as a new institution that
He would (future tense) build. It doesn't say He would add to
His existing church, but that He would, in the future, build
this new body of believers, which we know consists of both
Jews and Gentiles who come to know Him as Savior (cf. Eph.
2-3).
It was not until Pentecost, and the coming of the Holy Spirit,
that this group of believers began to be identified as the
"church" (Acts 2:47). There are a couple references in
Matthew to the church, but it is apparently in anticipation of
Christ beginning to build this institution.
God does refer to the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16), but that is
referring to Jews who are truly saved, not all the people who
make up the church (cf. Romans 9:6). The "olive tree" (Rom.
11), consists of all true believers of all ages, but it
clearly has two branches that will exist right up to the end
(Revelation 21:12-14.
Nowhere, to my knowledge, does He ever refer to this group of
all believers from all ages as the "church", and He makes it
quite clear, in Romans 11 that it is the Israel which is
blinded to and an enemy of the gospel (surely not the
spiritual Israel who consists of saved people of all ages),
whom God made irrevocable promises to (e.g. Jer. 30-33), which
shall (future tense) be saved, after the fulness of the
Gentiles has come in (past).
Since God does have distinct covenants and promises with both
national Israel, and the church, and since Romans 11 confirms
this distinction in the unfolding of God's plan of salvation
and future events, we are not obligated to confuse any
similarities which may exist between national Israel and the
church, and conclude they are one and the same throughout
Scripture and prophecy. The trump of God, is no exception.
The Bible refers to the "last trump", in connection with both
God's plan for Israel, and the church, and if we don't
acknowledge any distinction between God's program for His
people Israel and the church, we may confuse the trump of 1
Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians as being one and the same.
Since God has confirmed a distinction in His covenant dealings
both with Israel and the church in Romans 11, which is said to
specifically carry over into the future salvation of the
spiritually blinded Israel that is currently an enemy of the
gospel, so that she "shall be saved" when the fulness of the
Gentiles has come in, we may distinguish between the last
trump for the church, and Israel.
There are apparently several obvious differences between the
trump of God that marks the rapture of the church (1 Thess.
4), and the gathering of God's elect from the four quarters of
the earth, during the Tribulation:
* The trumpet in Thessalonians is the trumpet of God, the one
in Revelation is the trumpet of an angel (1 Thessalonians
4:16; Revelation 11:15).
* The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15 apparently sounds before any
wrath descends, while the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds
at the end of the time of wrath.
* The trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15 and Thessalonians apparently
occurs in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, but the one in
Revelation 10 seems to occur over a period of time, because it
says the angel "begins to sound", as if the trumpet is
sounding for "days" (Revelation 10:7).
* The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake, that
leaves a believing remnant in fear, but the trump in
Thessalonians sees no believer left behind in fear (Revelation
11:12-15).
* In Thessalonians, the trumpet occurs before a resurrection,
but in Revelation, the trumpet occurs after a resurrection.
* The word "last", can mean last in a series, or last in point
of time. There is nothing in Thessalonians, or 1 Corinthians
15, that would indicate this trumpet is the last in a series
of trumpets, but the one in Revelation is clearly the last in
a series of seven.
* The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians precedes blessing, life, and
glory, but the one in Revelation brings judgment on God's
enemies.
We are not forced to conclude the last trump of Revelation,
must be one and the same with the last trump of 1 Corinthians
15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul beseeches us, by the hope of
being raptured and gathered to the Lord, not to be troubled in
our minds, by the idea that the Tribulation is at hand for the
church.
There are some who seem to look for doctrines in the Bible
that can throw people into a state of emotional trouble,
whether trying to make them worry they've committed the
unpardonable sin, or that they are going to go through the
Tribulation in their lifetime. God does not want the church
thus troubled, but wants it to comfort one another with the
hope of being gathered to the Lord, not by the dread of
impending Tribulation doom (2 Thess. 2:1).
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	14 Aug 2007 03:58:56 PM

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!
I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!
This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!
Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!
If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	15 Aug 2007 12:53:04 AM

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:58:56 -0400,
in article <po54c3huqc09irb0o52okp57grch7g4f08@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!

I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!

This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!

Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!

If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!

Romans 11:26 says when the deliverer comes from Zion, all
Israel will be saved. You claim He came in A.D. 70, which was
a time when a million Jews were destroyed. Do you deny you've
said these things?
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	15 Aug 2007 12:43:39 PM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:53:04 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:58:56 -0400,
in article <po54c3huqc09irb0o52okp57grch7g4f08@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!

I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!

This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!

Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!

If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!

You are scrambling, trying to save yourself, because
you know you lied and you know everyone else knows
you lied.
Now where Randy, is the quote of me saying that
the destruction of a million Jews in 70 AD is the
fulfillment of the promise by God to save all Israel?
That is what you claimed I said and that is what I want
to see you quote me saying!
The truth is, you knew you were lying. And how can
I say that for sure? Easy. You made this same claim
before, not too long ago and I called you on it and
you ran away. Now I believe that you knew I never
said it the very first time you claimed it. But what I
can prove for all to see, is that at the least, this time,
you did know it was a lie, since I called you on it a
short time ago. So yes, you knew you were posting
a lie when you hit the "Send" button!
And now you have the option to either be honest
about it and apologize, or to continue lying about
me and trying to justify your evil.
But we both know what you'll do, don't we? Why yes,
we do! You'll claim I'm running away, because that's
how dishonest you are.
Now go ahead and thank me for my "vicarious confession"
that you claim people are making, when they expose you
for what you are.
.

User: "Fred A Stover"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	15 Aug 2007 10:30:55 PM

"Pastor Knave" < SATAN @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:9qe6c3tioee5qjopivuvp94pd9li7pkopu@4ax.com...

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:53:04 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:58:56 -0400,
in article <po54c3huqc09irb0o52okp57grch7g4f08@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!

I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!

This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!

Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!

If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!

What an idiot! You still haven't figured out that, when scripture promises
something, and you say it happened. You are saying the promise is fulfilled.
You keep running your mouth and you don't know what you're saying!
His,
--
http://tinyurl.com/2hf6ak
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a
little child, he shall not enter therein. (Matk 10:15)
<)))))))><
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	15 Aug 2007 02:47:59 PM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:43:39 -0400,
in article <9qe6c3tioee5qjopivuvp94pd9li7pkopu@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:53:04 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:58:56 -0400,
in article <po54c3huqc09irb0o52okp57grch7g4f08@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!

I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!

This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!

Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!

If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!

You are scrambling, trying to save yourself, because
you know you lied and you know everyone else knows
you lied.

Now where Randy, is the quote of me saying that
the destruction of a million Jews in 70 AD is the
fulfillment of the promise by God to save all Israel?

That is what you claimed I said and that is what I want
to see you quote me saying!

The truth is, you knew you were lying. And how can
I say that for sure? Easy. You made this same claim
before, not too long ago and I called you on it and
you ran away. Now I believe that you knew I never
said it the very first time you claimed it. But what I
can prove for all to see, is that at the least, this time,
you did know it was a lie, since I called you on it a
short time ago. So yes, you knew you were posting
a lie when you hit the "Send" button!

And now you have the option to either be honest
about it and apologize, or to continue lying about
me and trying to justify your evil.

But we both know what you'll do, don't we? Why yes,
we do! You'll claim I'm running away, because that's
how dishonest you are.

Now go ahead and thank me for my "vicarious confession"
that you claim people are making, when they expose you
for what you are.

When do you claim the deliverer came out of Zion, in
fulfillment of Romans 11:26?
©2007 pulpitfire.net, pulpitfire.org, pulpitfire.com
--
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself
up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every
thought to make it obedient to Christ. †2 Corinthians 10:5
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this work alone to escape hell and receive eternal
life (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 1:8-9).
.

User: "Pastor Dave"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	15 Aug 2007 04:17:41 PM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:47:59 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 13:43:39 -0400,
in article <9qe6c3tioee5qjopivuvp94pd9li7pkopu@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 00:53:04 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:58:56 -0400,
in article <po54c3huqc09irb0o52okp57grch7g4f08@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:29:11 -0500, ®andy
<pulpitfire@gmail.com> wrote:

Your claims that the destruction of a million Jews
in A.D. 70, represents the fulfillment of God's promise
to save all Israel (Romans 11:26ff.), are Hitleresque.

Randy, you're telling a lie when you claim I said this
and you know it! You cannot quote me saying it!

I also pointed out this lie of yours before and were
you able to quote me saying this? No! But did you
stop telling this same lie? No!

This is the problem when dealing with Randy. When
he knows he's wrong and when he thinks you won't
have a war with him, which is what he lives for, he
likes to change what people said and then argue against
his imagined up statements and then claims it's you who
just did that to him!

Randy is dishonest, period! And don't be fooled by him!
He is not trying to impart any truth here! He is simply
***** because I haven't been at war with him and
he is intentionally lying, figuring he can get my anger up,
so that he can claim I'm attacking him!

If there were a case to be made for demon possession,
I would vote for Randy! And sadly, I'm not even joking.
This man is pure evil, period!

You are scrambling, trying to save yourself, because
you know you lied and you know everyone else knows
you lied.

Now where Randy, is the quote of me saying that
the destruction of a million Jews in 70 AD is the
fulfillment of the promise by God to save all Israel?

That is what you claimed I said and that is what I want
to see you quote me saying!

The truth is, you knew you were lying. And how can
I say that for sure? Easy. You made this same claim
before, not too long ago and I called you on it and
you ran away. Now I believe that you knew I never
said it the very first time you claimed it. But what I
can prove for all to see, is that at the least, this time,
you did know it was a lie, since I called you on it a
short time ago. So yes, you knew you were posting
a lie when you hit the "Send" button!

And now you have the option to either be honest
about it and apologize, or to continue lying about
me and trying to justify your evil.

But we both know what you'll do, don't we? Why yes,
we do! You'll claim I'm running away, because that's
how dishonest you are.

Now go ahead and thank me for my "vicarious confession"
that you claim people are making, when they expose you
for what you are.

When do you claim the deliverer came out of Zion,
in fulfillment of Romans 11:26?

Where Randy, is the quote of me saying that the destruction
of a million Jews in 70 AD is the fulfillment of the promise
by God to save all Israel?
.

User: "®andy"
Title: Re: PING RANDY: PURE EVIL!	16 Aug 2007 03:25:31 AM

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:17:41 -0400,
in article <var6c350sj7rj2nt9j1guaf9326akuqas2@4ax.com>,
Pastor Dave <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: