The return of Christ and the resurrection

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Topic:	Religions > Bible
User:	"Inquisitor"
Date:	01 Jan 2006 09:58:33 PM
Object:	The return of Christ and the resurrection

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an invisible
return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back again
and what happens to those who missed out?
.

User: "Chuck Stamford"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	02 Jan 2006 04:07:30 PM

"Inquisitor" <enquiry@the.inqiry> wrote in message
news:jr1uf.11807$vH5.585708@news.xtra.co.nz...

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an
invisible
return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back
again
and what happens to those who missed out?

Scripture is clear that Jesus was resurrected with a physical body, capable
of eating and being touched by His disciples. It also clearly states that
they stood and watched Him as He ascended in heaven in that body. It also
records the words of the angels who spoke to those disciples at that event,
telling them that as He had ascended into heaven, so in like manner would He
return to earth.
If you need the biblical citations for any of this, let me know.
Chuck Stamford
.

User: "Nog"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	02 Jan 2006 04:21:55 PM

Chuck Stamford wrote:

"Inquisitor" <enquiry@the.inqiry> wrote in message
news:jr1uf.11807$vH5.585708@news.xtra.co.nz...

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an
invisible
return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back
again
and what happens to those who missed out?

Scripture is clear that Jesus was resurrected with a physical body,
capable
of eating and being touched by His disciples. It also clearly states that
they stood and watched Him as He ascended in heaven in that body. It also
records the words of the angels who spoke to those disciples at that
event, telling them that as He had ascended into heaven, so in like manner
would He return to earth.

If you need the biblical citations for any of this, let me know.

Chuck Stamford

Well don't hold your breath. Religious idiots have been saying that since AD
1. Will he come in 5, nope. Will he come in 50, nope. Will he come in 100,
nope. Shucks. Maybe in 500, ***** no. How about 1000, yea that's it, nope.
In 2000 for sure? Nope Well it must be 3000....5000, 10,000? Hell now, it's
all *****, do you get it now? Just jew farie tales not to be taken for
real. How smart do you think the middle east retards were 2000 years ago?
Pretty dumb for sure. It's all caveman *****, superstitious nonsense.
Witness my *****, they were halucinating on moldy grain.
.

User: "mem"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	05 Jan 2006 10:29:50 AM

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:21:55 GMT, Nog <q4wtxv29o@verizon.net> said the
following highly interesting and thought-provoking thingies in this
'froup:

Chuck Stamford wrote:

"Inquisitor" <enquiry@the.inqiry> wrote in message
news:jr1uf.11807$vH5.585708@news.xtra.co.nz...

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an
invisible
return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back
again
and what happens to those who missed out?

Scripture is clear that Jesus was resurrected with a physical body,
capable
of eating and being touched by His disciples. It also clearly states that
they stood and watched Him as He ascended in heaven in that body. It also
records the words of the angels who spoke to those disciples at that
event, telling them that as He had ascended into heaven, so in like manner
would He return to earth.

If you need the biblical citations for any of this, let me know.

Chuck Stamford

It is wrong for anyone to affix a date regarding HIS return, which
will occur.
No one knows when, and anyone trying to make such a prediction is
making a damning comment on their part.
ONLY God the Father knows:
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
--
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	03 Jan 2006 10:57:22 AM

Chuck Stamford wrote:

"Inquisitor" <enquiry@the.inqiry> wrote in message
news:jr1uf.11807$vH5.585708@news.xtra.co.nz...

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an
invisible
return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back
again
and what happens to those who missed out?

Scripture is clear that Jesus was resurrected with a physical body, capable
of eating and being touched by His disciples. It also clearly states that
they stood and watched Him as He ascended in heaven in that body. It also
records the words of the angels who spoke to those disciples at that event,
telling them that as He had ascended into heaven, so in like manner would He
return to earth.

If you need the biblical citations for any of this, let me know.

Chuck Stamford

===>Of course it states all of the above.
What does it prove?
The creative imagination of the Gospel writers. -- L.
.

User: "oldwetdog"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	02 Jan 2006 12:26:46 PM

Inquisitor wrote:

CAPs used for emphasis
The resurrection it to occur at the Last Trumpet, the Trump of God�which
is sounded when He comes. At this point I will not get into the "one or
two" resurrection debate. Let's just look at the lie that His coming
occurred in AD 70.
Matthew 24:24-31 KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
shall deceive the very elect.
[No surprise here--there have always been false prophets/teachers]
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go
not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[Now, this is a very clear statement--and only an idiot suffering from
delusion would fail to comprehend it.
HOWEVER: it leaves a Question--Why?
Why NOT believe them?]
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[WHY? HERE IS WHY! Because when he comes, his coming will be like
lightning!! Lightning is an instantaneous event--EVERY EYE SEES it at
the same time.]
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
together.
[Here is another WHY? BECAUSE His elect will be gathered to Him: we
won't have to go anywhere to be with him. (See v 31)
1 Thes 4: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.]
----
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.
[Preterists are claiming, then, that the Last Trumpet, Great Trumpet,
Seventh Trumpet and Trump of God (they are all the same event) has been
sounded!!
-----
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[This is NOT something local, caused by the burning of Jerusalem. This
is the whole physical creation which has been groaning until now, held
together waiting the revelation of the Sons of Son�and we can KNOW it is
not a local event, because all the tribes of earth will see the evidence
of His coming-and mourn.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are
not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage
of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of
the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
-----
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of
man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Here is another WHY? Because _ALL_ The Tribes of Earth Will Mourn! Did
ALL the tribes of Earth mourn in AD 70? I Think NOT.
31 And _He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet_ and
they shall _gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
of heaven to the other_.
[The Preterists will try to convince you that this happened in AD 70!!]
This is the Seventh Trumpet, the Last Trumpet, The Great Trumpet, The
Trump of God!! Go ahead: Look it up: compare the events which occurs
with each of these events (trumpets); and compare the events with those
called Resurrection, and �the End.� (There is only 184 of them in the
RSV, so you'll want to get started now.)
Those who Love Truth search for it, those who don't, don't seem to have
time.
owd
http://www.xprt.net/~servitum/
-----
As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise
reprover upon an obedient ear. Solomon
..
.

User: "70AD"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	02 Jan 2006 01:30:32 PM

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:26:46 -0800, oldwetdog
<oldwetdog@hotmail.com> spake thusly:

Inquisitor wrote:

A lie? If it's such a lie, then why do you keep having
your claims refuted and why do you keep running
away from me and why do you tell lies about me?
And I have a question, Glenn. Why did you post
Bible verses below, when you claimed that the
writers of the NT were wrong, because they expected
Christ to return within their generation? Doesn't
that mean that you don't believe the Bible and that
you're a hypocrite for trying to use NT passages to
prove your claims?
And since you admit that the writers of the NT
believed in a return within their generation,
how could anything they wrote possibly support
His return in this generation?
And isn't that what you claim and label, "the Truth"
Glenn? That Jesus is absolutely, positively, without
doubt, returning within our life time?
I'm going to show this person the stuff you keep
ignoring Glenn. Especially the part about Jesus
riding a cloud and I'm going to prove that you
keep ignoring what the Bible says.
And why do you think that last trumpet would
be heard by the physical world?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If it is the dead who are raised, doesn't it make sense
that it is the dead who will hear the "trump" of God?
Note that v17 starts with, "THEN", meaning that the
trump is something for the dead to hear, not the
living. This happens (the trump) and that happens (the
dead rise) and "THEN we who are alive and remain...".

Matthew 24:24-31 KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
shall deceive the very elect.

[No surprise here--there have always been false prophets/teachers]

Not according to you. You said it was one of the signs
that would have to happen yet.
And why would Jesus call it a sign, if they had always
been around? How would that be a sign?
What is clear, is that you guys like stroking each
others egos. You fail however, to respond to the
points that I make. You can't.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go
not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

[Now, this is a very clear statement--and only an idiot suffering from
delusion would fail to comprehend it.
HOWEVER: it leaves a Question--Why?
Why NOT believe them?]

Yes, it is very clear. Don't go running after Jesus,
when people say He's on Earth. So what's the
problem?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[WHY? HERE IS WHY! Because when he comes, his coming will be like
lightning!! Lightning is an instantaneous event--EVERY EYE SEES it at
the same time.]

The verse doesn't say that. It says what it says, not
whatever you want to add to it.
The Roman army did come from the east to the west
and lightning is used often in the OT as being God
sending destruction, by the hand of other nations
against Jerusalem, when they broke their covenant
agreement with God. So what's the problem?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
together.

[Here is another WHY? BECAUSE His elect will be gathered to Him: we
won't have to go anywhere to be with him. (See v 31)
1 Thes 4: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.]

You just inserted your doctrine there.
What Jesus said in v28 above, has nothing to do with
the passages you just quoted.
Jesus is speaking about war and dead bodies on the
ground, not in the ground. Are you that dense that
you think that Jesus is talking about the resurrection
in v28?!
The Roman army had an eagle of their standard.
Where the dead bodies are, there will the eagles
be gathered. What does that have to do with
the resurrection? Nothing.
You are really whacked in the head, dude!

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.

[Preterists are claiming, then, that the Last Trumpet, Great Trumpet,
Seventh Trumpet and Trump of God (they are all the same event) has been
sounded!!

According to you it's all the same. You seem to think
making claims is proof.
And yes, it has been sounded and it was for the dead
to hear, not the living. The trump sounds and THE DEAD
rise, not the living. Are living people resurrected?

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[This is NOT something local, caused by the burning of Jerusalem. This
is the whole physical creation which has been groaning until now, held
together waiting the revelation of the Sons of Son�and we can KNOW it is
not a local event, because all the tribes of earth will see the evidence
of His coming-and mourn.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are
not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by
reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage
of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of
the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Once again, you insert your doctrine, by making claims
that Jesus is talking about the destruction of the
planet. He isn't and neither was Paul. I proved that
to you and you refuse to respond to it.
I'll reserve comment until further down.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of
man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[Here is another WHY? Because _ALL_ The Tribes of Earth Will Mourn! Did
ALL the tribes of Earth mourn in AD 70? I Think NOT.

31 And _He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet_ and
they shall _gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
of heaven to the other_.

[The Preterists will try to convince you that this happened in AD 70!!]
This is the Seventh Trumpet, the Last Trumpet, The Great Trumpet, The
Trump of God!! Go ahead: Look it up: compare the events which occurs
with each of these events (trumpets); and compare the events with those
called Resurrection, and �the End.� (There is only 184 of them in the
RSV, so you'll want to get started now.)

Those who Love Truth search for it, those who don't, don't seem to have
time.

Glenn, why did you forget to quote v34? Oh yea, that's
right, you hate v34.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
That's right Glenn, the generation standing there.
Above, you quoted the following...
Matthew 24:29-30
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And here again Glenn, is what you keep ignoring,
every time I post it, that shows that vs29-30 are
not to be taken as physically literal statements...
You claim that Jesus will come physically and bodily
riding the clouds and yet, Scripture shows that it is
symbolic language. God used the same language for
the fulfilled prophecy about when Babylon conquered
Egypt. So while you people demand to know where
it is recorded that Jesus rode on a cloud bodily, I
would say that you have a problem, because if it is
to be taken literally, then I would like to know if you
can show me when someone recorded God riding
on a cloud, in the following fulfilled prophecy...
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, THE LORD RIDETH UPON
A SWIFT CLOUD, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
Did they see the Lord literally riding on a cloud?
Did the idols literally move?
Did the heart of Egypt literally melt?
Does a nation even have a literal heart, beating?
What did they do, lay this huge heart in the town
square and watch it beat?
Oh, wait, it's SYMBOLISM, you say. :)
Of course the statements weren't literal!
It was symbolism!
It means that God turned away from that nation and
judged it. The Sun going dark is used symbolically,
as something that would be understood from the days
of Moses.
You also claim that the Sun and Moon are literally
going to go dark. Yet once again, we have the OT
to turn to and read about the fulfilled prophecy
of when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and we find
that the language is the same. Can you show me
where I can find it recorded in history that this
occurred literally, Glenn?
You keep ignoring this when I post it, because you know
that you have no answer. You know it proves that Jesus
used symbolic language that any Jew back then would
have understood and you're so stupid, that you think
that if you keep ignoring it, that no one will notice
that I have posted it to you.
So for those who are interested in what Glenn keeps
ignoring, let's look at a comparison of some fulfilled
Old Testament prophecies and compare them to the
language Jesus used, in Matthew 24 & Luke 21 &
Revelation.
The caps in what follows are used for emphasis only.
I will make a few notes first, about Luke. And then
we will look at the whole section from Isaiah and
break it down, to show how it uses the same language
as Matthew 24:29-30 above.
And lest anyone wishes to say that this has not been
fulfilled yet, remember that in Ezekiel 12:17-28,
God sent Ezekiel in, to blast the so called prophets,
which were telling the king and the people that it
was way off into the future. God sent Ezekiel in,
to tell them that it was "AT HAND" and that it
WAS coming upon THEM!
And let us also not forget, that the Book of Daniel
starts out with Jerusalem already conquered by
Babylon, so YES FOLKS, IT DID INDEED HAPPEN!
But note the language here and when you do, think
of what Jesus said in Matthew 24 (I will break it
down for you after this quote, by showing how the
matching verses line up). And note that Isaiah even
calls it, "The Day of the Lord". That is NOT a term
unique to when Jesus said it! It was used at various
points to note the destruction of Jerusalem, a local
destruction, which is exactly what Jesus was noting.
Nowhere in the NT, is one word from the original
Greek found, that notes a world wide destruction!
And before you pull Peter into it, I have already
dealt with that here...
http://heaven-earth-passed.notlong.com
You must remember, that words like "every" and "all"
are determined by their context. For example, if we
worked on a loading dock and I said "Move all of the
boxes", would you seek to move all of the boxes on
Earth? Or on the loading dock?
Obviously, on the loading dock and so, when Jesus said,
for example, "all of the tribes of the earth will
mourn", we must understand that the word translated
to "tribes" there, is, IN EVERY INSTANCE IN THE NT,
a word that means the tribes of the Jews, not everyone
in the world. IN EVERY INSTANCE. James 1:1 is a
prime example. The Greek word is "phule" and that's
what it means.
"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
TO THE TWELVE TRIBES (phule) which are scattered
abroad, greeting." - James 1:1
And the word translated as "earth", is actually "ge"
and means "soil", or "land". To a Jew, you were either
"in the land", or "out of the land". It meant THEIR
LAND and THAT is what is being referred to here
and not the whole globe.
The word for the whole globe, is "kosmos" and it is
used in the NT and Jesus is, no doubt, speaking of
the whole planet...
"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter things which have been kept secret from
the foundation of the world (kosmos)." - Matthew 13:35
Now bear in mind, that Jesus said in Luke, that when
the destruction of Jerusalem and Judea took place,
that it would fulfill, "ALL things written".
Now that means that whether YOU can understand
HOW that could be, DOESN'T MATTER! It's what
Jesus said and so, it is what we MUST believe! He
did NOT SAY, "all things except what I think is still
in the future". Was Jesus a babbling idiot? Or does
He know what He is talking about?
Kneel to Him. Do NOT try to make Him kneel to YOU!
Luke 21:20-22
20) And when ye shall see JERUSALEM compassed
with armies, then know that the desolation THEREOF
is nigh.
21) Then let them which are IN JUDEA flee to the
mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it
depart out; and let not them that are in the countries
enter thereinto.
22) For THESE be the days of VENGEANCE, that *ALL*
THINGS which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.
And in 70 AD, the Temple was burned and every stone
was pried apart to retrieve the melted gold that ran in
between them, thereby fulfilling Jesus' words in
Matthew 24:2, TO THE LETTER!
Anyway... Note the woman in travail, the sinners being
judged, heart's melting, pangs and sorrows, desolation,
Sun & Moon and the stars going dark, etc., etc..
Isaiah 13:6-11
6) Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;
it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7) Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every
man's heart shall melt:
8) And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall
take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman
that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another;
their faces shall be as flames.
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both
with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations
thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall
not cause her light to shine.
11) And I will punish the world for their evil, and
the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the
arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low
the haughtiness of the terrible.
So there it is. Sound familiar? :)
Let's break it down a bit and do a comparison,
using Isaiah, Matthew, Luke & Revelation.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, are all parallel
accounts of Jesus' discourse. So let's put together
some examples and see what we come up with,
utilizing the Scriptures from Isaiah, just quoted
above and remember, that both are talking about
the destruction of Jerusalem...
#1) Isaiah 13:8 - Matthew 24:8; Luke 21:26
"And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take
hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that
travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their
faces shall be as flames." - Isaiah 13:8
"All these are the beginning of sorrows."
- Matthew 24:8
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking
after those things which are coming on the earth: for
the powers of heaven shall be shaken." - Luke 21:26
"And she being with child cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered." - Revelation 12:2
#2) Isaiah 13:9 - Luke 21:20
"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with
wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and
he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
- Isaiah 13:9
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
- Luke 21:20
#3) Isaiah 13:10 - Matthew 24:29
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof
shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened
in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her
light to shine." - Isaiah 13:10
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" - Matthew 24:29
#4) Isaiah 13:15 - Luke 21:23
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through;
and every one that is joined unto them shall fall
by the sword." - Isaiah 13:15
"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them
that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great
distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."
- Luke 21:23
#5) Isaiah 13:18 - Matthew 24:19
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces;
and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
their eye shall not spare children." - Isaiah 13:18
"And woe unto them that are with child, and to them
that give suck in those days!" - Matthew 24:29
The end timers that have been teaching you these
doctrines, have claimed to let Scripture do the
talking, yet when it is clear that their doctrine fails
before the light of Scripture, the first thing they do,
is whip out a passage that they think says it is
literal, thereby pitting Scripture against Scripture
and having it contradict itself.
Glenn keeps ignoring this stuff when it is posted.
But it clearly shows that Jesus was using the same
symbolic language that God did in the OT and
it was symbolic then and Jesus was not saying
that He would literally and bodily appear riding
clouds in the sky.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
"Faith is not an intellectual belief. Faith is
a belief with legs on it." - Adrian Rogers
.

User: "70AD"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	01 Jan 2006 11:57:43 PM

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:58:33 +1300, "Inquisitor"
<enquiry@the.inqiry> spake thusly:

It is what the ancient church believed.
But isn't this an interesting comment that
you have made?
Do you believe in the Rapture? I do not.
But whether you do or don't (and especially
if you do), how many people claim that Jesus
comes back to "Rapture" believers?
And that it's a "hidden return"?
And yet, Christ could not have come back in 70 AD,
because He would have been "hidden"?
Hmmmm...
Does that sound like a consistent approach
to Scripture to you?
Is it possible that Jesus never said that He would
physically appear bodily, when He returned and
that it wasn't about Him being "hidden", because
He never said He would be seen bodily?
You expect Jesus' return to be one in which He
is walking around on Earth, but He never said
He would do that.
You would like to quote Matthew 24:30, but God
used the same language to describe the time that
He used Babylon to conquer Egypt, which was
fulfilled and yet, He was not "bodily seen"...
"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon
a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1
This shows that the language Jesus used was
that which was consistent with the language
of Scripture and was also symbolic.
I am not picking on you. I am just making some points.
I am more than willing to discuss my belief with you
in a reasonable manner. :)
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34
"If something in science suddenly becomes
so sacrosanct that you can't question it,
then it ceases to be science," he said.
"And I really think that's what's become
of Darwinism." - Roger DeHart
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	03 Jan 2006 04:24:58 AM

"70AD" <_-_Ananias917_-_@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:r0ghr1hgcf7lv1ae2rqms8gk8cgc20m402@4ax.com...

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:58:33 +1300, "Inquisitor"
<enquiry@the.inqiry> spake thusly:

I have heard that there are some who say the resurrection was a spiritual
thing and happened in the year 70 and supposedly coincided with an

invisible

return or second coming of Christ. Is this true? or is it a bit like that
Jehovah's Witness Watchtower Mickey Mouse stuff? Isn't he coming back

again

and what happens to those who missed out?

Do you believe in the Rapture? I do not.

John 14:2-4
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a
place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I
am, there ye may be also. [4] And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

But whether you do or don't (and especially
if you do), how many people claim that Jesus
comes back to "Rapture" believers?

All the believers.

And that it's a "hidden return"?

Only heretics, like the folks who say His promised return is spiritual, not
physical.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

And yet, Christ could not have come back in 70 AD,
because He would have been "hidden"?
Is it possible that Jesus never said that He would
physically appear bodily, when He returned and
that it wasn't about Him being "hidden", because
He never said He would be seen bodily?

Zech. 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

You expect Jesus' return to be one in which He
is walking around on Earth, but He never said
He would do that.

Rev. 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an
hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
foreheads.

You would like to quote Matthew 24:30, but God
used the same language to describe the time that
He used Babylon to conquer Egypt, which was
fulfilled and yet, He was not "bodily seen"...

"The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon
a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols
of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart
of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." - Isaiah 19:1

Zech. 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that
is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I am not picking on you. I am just making some points.
I am more than willing to discuss my belief with you
in a reasonable manner. :)

Get out of my face Satan!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)
Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in (Rom 11:25)
Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt 17:10)
I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of the great
and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his
servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	05 Jan 2006 06:02:25 AM

<fredstover@email.com> in <_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>
on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:
<snip>

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Yeah good verse indeed, it shows that when this particular book was
written, there were some who expected a _supernatural_ coming of Christ
based on Daniel. Those _heretics_ denied that Christ came in the
flesh. To them IIRC flesh was so base and sinful that God couldn't be
possible have been born of a human woman.
This is of course is part of the early church history a heresy known as
docetism...
Now if Jesus who had no "physical" body before his birth, comes into this
world, got a physical body, and died, but after 3 days he took the body
with him, what then was the "sacrifice of Jesus"....
Another way to interpret the above verse is done to support the coming
of new man in the place of Jesus, like the Moon-fella from Korea IIRC.

And yet, Christ could not have come back in 70 AD,
because He would have been "hidden"?

Is it possible that Jesus never said that He would
physically appear bodily, when He returned and
that it wasn't about Him being "hidden", because
He never said He would be seen bodily?

Zech. 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Zechariah 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is
before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst
thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great
valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it
toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the
mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from
before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God
shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear,
nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor
night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from
Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the
hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
OK now did this happen? Why is it that some guys just "quote" one part
of scripture, ripping it out of context?
Nay there was no "physical" return of Jesus in AD 70 or any other time
for that matter..

You expect Jesus' return to be one in which He
is walking around on Earth, but He never said
He would do that.

Rev. 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an
hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their
foreheads.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he
sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Ahem it was given to John via an Angel, IOW a clear case of hearsay....

Yet we have many who didn't mourn about the death of Jesus. If all had
"mourned" then there would be many more "converts" to "Christianity" to
be found in Jerusalem, IOW many "teachers" and others in a short period
of time, would have to change their view about Jesus, from a impostor to
the "genuine" article, but that didn't happen on a large scale as can be
found here...
Acts 22:17-18
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even
while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of
Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

I am not picking on you. I am just making some points.
I am more than willing to discuss my belief with you
in a reasonable manner. :)

Here we have a Jew trying to make sense of the fact that the kingdom the
Jews awaited, didn't arrive with Jesus, contrary to the words of God as
found in the OT....
Had Paul just understood Jeremiah 18:7-10 a bit better, he could have
created a different theology....

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt 17:10)

Matthew 17:12-13
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him
not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall
also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
So Jesus declared John the Baptist to be the one who fulfilled this
particular prophecy... And nowhere does Jesus indicate that "Elijah"
shall return once more....

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of the
great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Yet the return of "Elijah" wasn't in a physical manner:
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the *spirit and power* of Elias,
to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient
to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
As seen above Jesus declares that John the Baptist was this "return" of
Elijah, but can we see anywhere in the Bible that the sinner John ever
followed Jesus, or that he really "prepared a large number" of people
for the "Lord" who was no other then Jesus...

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto
his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

good passage, question is does it still happening today?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Werner Kurator
__
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
__
To err is human -- but it feels divine.
-- Mae West
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	06 Jan 2006 11:21:28 AM

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrndrq2mh.29b.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Correction, the Author in John had addressed docetism, but the Author's
wording in this verse written after His first coming speaks to the future
with the durative present participle "is coming," not the past. His warning
is that there are deceivers entering the world who testify not that Jesus is
coming in the flesh.
It speaks to the heresy of preterism.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)
Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in (Rom 11:25)
Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt 17:10)
I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of the great
and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his
servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	06 Jan 2006 12:58:30 PM

<fredstover@email.com> in <sGxvf.45257$BZ5.44163@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>
on 2006-01-06 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrndrq2mh.29b.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that Jesus
Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

There are some people who think "Christ" will be born on earth in a
new human body....

It speaks to the heresy of preterism.

How could it be if this "doctrine" wasn't even invented yet, like so
many which were formed much later?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in (Rom 11:25)

So God hides the truth from Israel his people?

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt
17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's Father
before his birth...

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret
unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

Who are the prophets of today?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Werner Kurator
__
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
__
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
change, the courage to change the things I can, and the
weaponry to make the difference stick!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	07 Jan 2006 05:59:58 AM

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrndrtfem.20t.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<sGxvf.45257$BZ5.44163@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-06 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote

message news:slrndrq2mh.29b.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that

Jesus

Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Correction, the Author in John had addressed docetism, but the Author's
wording in this verse written after His first coming speaks to the

future

with the durative present participle "is coming," not the past. His

warning

is that there are deceivers entering the world who testify not that

Jesus is

coming in the flesh.

There are some people who think "Christ" will be born on earth in a
new human body....

I've seen that and there's one on-line who claims she has returned.
Scripture says He will return the way He left:
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in
like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

It speaks to the heresy of preterism.

How could it be if this "doctrine" wasn't even invented yet, like so
many which were formed much later?

The Author knew of it before it developed. It apparently posed a problem for
the translators who didn't know about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in (Rom 11:25)

So God hides the truth from Israel his people?

Until the fullness of the gentiles has entered.

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt
17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

So it seemed, since it would be revealed at a specific time, we shared in
the blindness until that time. Jesus said the one who would restore all
things had come:

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's Father
before his birth...

Again, so it seemed, but John went forth is the Spirit and power of the
Spirit with which he had been filled from the womb.

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret
unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

Who are the prophets of today?

In the former days they would say "Thus says the Lord." Now that His Spirit
has been poured out on all flesh, they merely speak, and His Spirit says
"Thus says the Lord." > >

Werner Kurator
__
===========================================================

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)
Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in (Rom 11:25)
Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt 17:10)
I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of the great
and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his
servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	07 Jan 2006 10:41:43 AM

<fredstover@email.com> in <23Ovf.3965$fb4.2361@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
on 2006-01-07 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrndrtfem.20t.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<sGxvf.45257$BZ5.44163@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-06 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote

message news:slrndrq2mh.29b.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that

Jesus

Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Correction, the Author in John had addressed docetism, but the Author's
wording in this verse written after His first coming speaks to the

future

with the durative present participle "is coming," not the past. His

warning

is that there are deceivers entering the world who testify not that

Jesus is

coming in the flesh.

There are some people who think "Christ" will be born on earth in a
new human body....

The Angel asks them "why" are looking into the sky, and if this is
indeed such a good idea, as he will come again in the same way as they
saw him leaving, and he left as human, born from a woman...
The problem with this passage is that sometimes the first "heaven" is
translated as "sky", meaning there is no need to look into the sky, and
Jesus never said that he came from the "sky" but from "heaven", which
is certainly different...

It speaks to the heresy of preterism.

How could it be if this "doctrine" wasn't even invented yet, like so
many which were formed much later?

The Author knew of it before it developed.

LOL

It apparently posed a problem for the translators who didn't know
about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in (Rom 11:25)

So God hides the truth from Israel his people?

Until the fullness of the gentiles has entered.

Had Paul understood Jeremiah 18:7-10 he would have created a different
theology...

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt
17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

So it seemed, since it would be revealed at a specific time, we shared in
the blindness until that time. Jesus said the one who would restore all
things had come:

Yet according to Paul humans are still awaiting the "redemption" of
their bodies... Unless of course Paul was wrong again....

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's Father
before his birth...

Again, so it seemed, but John went forth is the Spirit and power of the
Spirit with which he had been filled from the womb.

John 1:31-23
31 And I knew him (the Christ) not: but that he should be made
manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from
heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him (The Christ) not: but he that sent me to baptize
with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the
Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
So if John was filled with the "Spirit" even from the "womb", how
come, that he didn't know who the "Christ" was, especially seen in the
light that his parents knew that Jesus was their Lord.
Why do we have later John doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and sends
two of his disciples to Jesus asking him, "are you he who is to
come...?
Funny is that Jesus himself never baptized anybody during his ministry
with the "holy Ghost" as John supposedly claims, not until the very
end and this was before his "return" into heaven...
John 20
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father
hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto
them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret
unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

Who are the prophets of today?

In the former days they would say "Thus says the Lord." Now that His Spirit
has been poured out on all flesh, they merely speak, and His Spirit says
"Thus says the Lord."

????
Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
"I would like to shake the hand of the man who first decided that e-mail
clients should slice, dice and run arbitrary programs. Then I'd like to stir,
blend and puree his hand." -- J. D. Baldwin in the Monastery
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	08 Jan 2006 06:02:47 PM

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrndrvrq7.1sj.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in <23Ovf.3965$fb4.2361@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
on 2006-01-07 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote

message news:slrndrtfem.20t.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<sGxvf.45257$BZ5.44163@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-06 announced this statement:

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all>

wrote

message news:slrndrq2mh.29b.werner@peace-with.all...

<fredstover@email.com> in

<_hsuf.45559$7h7.22735@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>

on 2006-01-03 announced this statement:

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers enter into the world, who confess not that

Jesus

Christ is coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an

antichrist.

Yeah good verse indeed, it shows that when this particular book was
written, there were some who expected a _supernatural_ coming of

Christ

based on Daniel. Those _heretics_ denied that Christ came in the
flesh. To them IIRC flesh was so base and sinful that God couldn't

possible have been born of a human woman.

Correction, the Author in John had addressed docetism, but the

Author's

wording in this verse written after His first coming speaks to the

future

with the durative present participle "is coming," not the past. His

warning

is that there are deceivers entering the world who testify not that

Jesus is

coming in the flesh.

There are some people who think "Christ" will be born on earth in a
new human body....

I've seen that and there's one on-line who claims she has returned.
Scripture says He will return the way He left:
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into

heaven?

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come

like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Angel asks them "why" are looking into the sky, and if this is
indeed such a good idea, as he will come again in the same way as they
saw him leaving, and he left as human, born from a woman...

The problem with this passage is that sometimes the first "heaven" is
translated as "sky", meaning there is no need to look into the sky, and
Jesus never said that he came from the "sky" but from "heaven", which
is certainly different...

He is alive, having been born again, justified, and glorified, and they
watched Him ascend in the sky to heaven, the route by which He will return.

It speaks to the heresy of preterism.

How could it be if this "doctrine" wasn't even invented yet, like so
many which were formed much later?

The Author knew of it before it developed.

LOL

Further cinfirmation of His word, addressing what only He could see.

It apparently posed a problem for the translators who didn't know
about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the
Gentiles be come in (Rom 11:25)

So God hides the truth from Israel his people?

Until the fullness of the gentiles has entered.

Had Paul understood Jeremiah 18:7-10 he would have created a different
theology...

Paul's scripture were the old testament and His enlightenment was Jesus and
His spirit. His theology was given to Him.

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt
17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

So it seemed, since it would be revealed at a specific time, we shared

the blindness until that time. Jesus said the one who would restore all
things had come:

Yet according to Paul humans are still awaiting the "redemption" of
their bodies... Unless of course Paul was wrong again....

Jesus paid the price, not all take advantage of it:
Deut. 15:16-17
And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee;
because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee; [17]
Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door,
and he shall be thy servant for ever.

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's Father
before his birth...

Again, so it seemed, but John went forth is the Spirit and power of the
Spirit with which he had been filled from the womb.

If you were to consider the Author, you would consider the word which
troubled you and what fell within its range of meaning. In the NASB, for
example, it reads "I did not recognize Him."

Why do we have later John doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and sends
two of his disciples to Jesus asking him, "are you he who is to
come...?

Some see chiding, but, whether chiding or doubting, it questions whether he
understood the spirit correctly, or whether he missed something. Why do you
ask?.

Funny is that Jesus himself never baptized anybody during his ministry
with the "holy Ghost" as John supposedly claims, not until the very
end and this was before his "return" into heaven...

John 20

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father
hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto
them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret
unto his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)

Who are the prophets of today?

In the former days they would say "Thus says the Lord." Now that His

Spirit

has been poured out on all flesh, they merely speak, and His Spirit says
"Thus says the Lord."

????

Werner Kurator
--

User: "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator"
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	09 Jan 2006 04:04:14 AM

<fredstover@email.com> in
<HKhwf.4509$fb4.3698@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> on 2006-01-09
announced this statement:
<snip>

The Angel asks them "why" are looking into the sky, and if this is
indeed such a good idea, as he will come again in the same way as
they saw him leaving, and he left as human, born from a woman...

The problem with this passage is that sometimes the first "heaven"
is translated as "sky", meaning there is no need to look into the
sky, and Jesus never said that he came from the "sky" but from
"heaven", which is certainly different...

He is alive, having been born again, justified, and glorified, and
they watched Him ascend in the sky to heaven, the route by which He
will return.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire,
and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven.
By your logic, one should expect "Elijah" to come back in the same
manner? The elevator goes up, the elevator must come down?
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the *spirit and power* of
Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the
disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared
for the Lord.
"Literalists" are so funny to watch...

It speaks to the heresy of preterism.

How could it be if this "doctrine" wasn't even invented yet,
like so many which were formed much later?

The Author knew of it before it developed.

LOL

Further cinfirmation of His word, addressing what only He could see.

It apparently posed a problem for the translators who didn't know
about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of
the Gentiles be come in (Rom 11:25)

So God hides the truth from Israel his people?

Until the fullness of the gentiles has entered.

Had Paul understood Jeremiah 18:7-10 he would have created a
different theology...

Paul's scripture were the old testament and His enlightenment was
Jesus and His spirit. His theology was given to Him.

LOL Paul took "passages" from the OT and claimed that one can be a
child of God only trough Jesus, while the Jews in their scriptures
were assured they were already God's "sons"...
Just in case you didn't have time to look up Jeremiah, I'll post it:
Jeremiah 18:6-12 (New International Version)
7 *If* at any time I announce that a *nation or kingdom* is to
*be uprooted, torn down and destroyed* , 8 and *if that nation*
I warned *repents of its evil*, then I *will relent* and *not inflict*
on it *the disaster I had planned*.
9 And *if* at *another time* I announce that a
*nation or kingdom* is to *be built up and planted*, 10 and *if* it
*does evil* in *my sight* and *does not obey me*, then I will
*reconsider the good* I had intended to do for it.
11 "Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in
Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a
disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your
evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.'
This prophet Jeremiah spoke for 23 years to the people trying so hard
that they would leave their path of evil...
So what Jeremiah says is that "FAITH" IN THE WORD OF God is most
important, yet we know that Jesus didn't find this faith in Israel,
and mostly the "uneducated" (and I don't put them down) people were
open enough to accept Jesus. Many others still waited for the "Elijah"
to come.. But there was none at least nobody who claimed to be
"Elijah". So how can there be a "Messiah" without a promised
"forerunner"...

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come?
(Matt 17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

So it seemed, since it would be revealed at a specific time, we
shared

the blindness until that time. Jesus said the one who would
restore all things had come:

Yet according to Paul humans are still awaiting the "redemption" of
their bodies... Unless of course Paul was wrong again....

Jesus paid the price, not all take advantage of it:

Deut. 15:16-17 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go
away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he
is well with thee; [17] Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it
through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.

How does this relate to the point raised that our bodies are still not
redeemed and that "Christians" "patiently" await it?
Romans 8:23-25
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the
firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope:
for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience
wait for it.

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming
of the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's
Father before his birth...

Again, so it seemed, but John went forth is the Spirit and power
of the Spirit with which he had been filled from the womb.

If you were to consider the Author, you would consider the word
which troubled you and what fell within its range of meaning. In the
NASB, for example, it reads "I did not recognize Him."

So what does it matter which words one puts into John's mouth, the
point stands, he didn't accept Jesus as his "Messiah" like the 12
Apostles did...
Again let me remind you, here we have "relatives", in one family the
person who was later to be "filled with the Spirit and power" of
Elijah, was born and in the other family the Messiah all of the
faithful in Israel "longed" for will be born. Now don't you think that
30 years would NOT be enough time to "educate" John about his cousin
Jesus, so that he would "KNOW" who the long awaited Messiah was?
Unless Luke made up the story that Mary visited Elisabeth and
Zachariah, then both families were the first in all of Israel to know
that "Elijah" shall return (not as a real person but in the "spirit
and power") and the Messiah will come too.
OK but what about the incident at the Jordan, again it was John who
was the first to know that Jesus was the Messiah, yet do we find any
indication that he accepted him?
Was John the only human who didn't need to follow Christ?
Or did he not have faith in Jesus, his cousin....

Why do we have later John doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and
sends two of his disciples to Jesus asking him, "are you he who is
to come...?

Some see chiding, but, whether chiding or doubting, it questions
whether he understood the spirit correctly, or whether he missed
something. Why do you ask?.

I'm "asking" why John who know the Messiah after he recognized him at
the Jordan, didn't follow Jesus. If John had followed Jesus, the Bible
would be full of it, and more importantly he wouldn't have been
killed over an side-issue, after all his task was to announce the
arrival of Christ to the nation, there is little evidence that he did
that, as he continued to baptize even after Jesus was revealed to him.
Look at Peter and others, they "left" what they were doing, and
followed Jesus when they realized who he was...
So why continue to give the people a lesser "baptism" if Jesus was
bringing a "greater" one, one even John needed...

Funny is that Jesus himself never baptized anybody during his
ministry with the "holy Ghost" as John supposedly claims, not until
the very end and this was before his "return" into heaven...

The other point is that Jesus also never baptized anybody with "fire"
either during his public ministry...
Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"
Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible
August 1983......
==============================================================
"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."
Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
Beware those who can compress the most words into the smallest ideas.
-- Uncle Al
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The return of Christ and the resurrection	11 Jan 2006 05:44:17 AM

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <werner@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrnds4d8u.1vq.werner@peace-with.all...

<snip>

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire,
and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven.

By your logic, one should expect "Elijah" to come back in the same
manner? The elevator goes up, the elevator must come down?

Why would anyone expect Elijah to come back?

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the *spirit and power* of
Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the
disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared
for the Lord.

Correction, spirit & power of EL YH, the spirit with which he was filled
from the womb. Having a senior moment? We've been here before.

Paul's scripture were the old testament and His enlightenment was
Jesus and His spirit. His theology was given to Him.

LOL Paul took "passages" from the OT and claimed that one can be a
child of God only trough Jesus, while the Jews in their scriptures
were assured they were already God's "sons"...

??? The OT confirms that the promise will come through Jesus.
Zech. 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that
is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Jeremiah 18:6-12 (New International Version)

So what Jeremiah says is that "FAITH" IN THE WORD OF God is most
important, yet we know that Jesus didn't find this faith in Israel,
and mostly the "uneducated" (and I don't put them down) people were
open enough to accept Jesus. Many others still waited for the "Elijah"
to come.. But there was none at least nobody who claimed to be
"Elijah". So how can there be a "Messiah" without a promised
"forerunner"...

That brings us back to Malachi promising the first coming of the Lord EL YH
and the scribes reading it to teach the coming of ELYH, Elijah.

Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come?
(Matt 17:10)

This was John the Baptist according to Jesus.

So it seemed, since it would be revealed at a specific time, we
shared

the blindness until that time. Jesus said the one who would
restore all things had come:

Yet according to Paul humans are still awaiting the "redemption" of
their bodies... Unless of course Paul was wrong again....

Jesus paid the price, not all take advantage of it:

Deut. 15:16-17 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go
away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he
is well with thee; [17] Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it
through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.

How does this relate to the point raised that our bodies are still not
redeemed and that "Christians" "patiently" await it?

Romans 8:23-25

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the
firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope:
for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience
wait for it.

It relates to the ones who never accept their redemption. Christians are
changed incorruptible when He comes.

I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming
of the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)

Elijah came in the "spirit and power" as it was told to John's
Father before his birth...

Again, so it seemed, but John went forth is the Spirit and power
of the Spirit with which he had been filled from the womb.

If you were to consider the Author, you would consider the word
which troubled you and what fell within its range of meaning. In the
NASB, for example, it reads "I did not recognize Him."

So what does it matter which words one puts into John's mouth, the
point stands, he didn't accept Jesus as his "Messiah" like the 12
Apostles did...

I don't know what you miss but John did accept Him.

Again let me remind you, here we have "relatives", in one family the
person who was later to be "filled with the Spirit and power" of
was born and in the other family the Messiah all of the
faithful in Israel "longed" for will be born. Now don't you think that
30 years would NOT be enough time to "educate" John about his cousin
Jesus, so that he would "KNOW" who the long awaited Messiah was?

I don't know what you are reading into the text, but there is nothing to
indicate that Elizabeth or Zechariah understood what the Spirit was speaking
before or after fulfillment.

Why do we have later John doubting that Jesus is the Christ, and
sends two of his disciples to Jesus asking him, "are you he who is
to come...?

Some see chiding, but, whether chiding or doubting, it questions
whether he understood the spirit correctly, or whether he missed
something. Why do you ask?.

I'm "asking" why John who know the Messiah after he recognized him at
the Jordan, didn't follow Jesus. If John had followed Jesus, the Bible
would be full of it, and more importantly he wouldn't have been
killed over an side-issue, after all his task was to announce the
arrival of Christ to the nation, there is little evidence that he did
that, as he continued to baptize even after Jesus was revealed to him.
Look at Peter and others, they "left" what they were doing, and
followed Jesus when they realized who he was...

So why continue to give the people a lesser "baptism" if Jesus was
bringing a "greater" one, one even John needed...

???????????? He did accept Jesus, and why should he stop baptizing?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found (Is 55:6)
Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in (Rom 11:25)
Why then say the scribes that ELYH (Elijah) must first come? (Matt 17:10)
I will send you El YH (LORD God) the prophet before the coming of the great
and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal 4:5)
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his
servants the prophets (Amos 3:7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.