Religions > Bible > The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Doug" |
| Date: |
26 Jun 2007 06:36:32 AM |
| Object: |
The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology. When a scroll is rolled together, the spindles come to an
abrupt stop. During the scientific revolution, the idea of a rigid sky
was abandoned, the heavens stopped their supposed revolutions, and the
diurnal motion was attributed to the earth instead.
The essential idea in a scroll being rolled together is that the
revolutions of the revolving spindle come to an end once the spindles
meet. No further rotation is possible. When men learned the laws of
mechanics as the knowledge of the discoveries of Newton and others
became known, belief in the rigid heavenly spheres was finished, and the
perceived motion of the heavens around the earth ended. It is the earth
that rotates, not the heavens, and the discovery of that truth was
foretold by Isaiah. His prophecy of the heavens being rolled together as
a scroll was restated by Jesus, and by John in Revelation. It foretold
the end of the old geocentric cosmology.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Thurisaz, warrior of Thor" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 01:09:04 PM |
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1. roll != fall
2. if only the latter half had referred to real celestial bodies and hinted
at any advanced understanding of gravity. So da babble sez that things
fall. Big deal. Everyone knows that. Something pointing into the direction
of the actual formula, now that would've been worth mentioning.
Nice try. Try again.
--
Thurisaz, warrior of Thor, natural enemy of morontheism
The judgment of morontheism: http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
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| User: "Kanda Jalen Eirsie" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
20 Jul 2007 09:27:35 PM |
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Greetings...
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:36:32 -0400, Doug <tcc@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
No - It is Time...
Gravity is an effect of time... Time is the creation of Day One In Genesis 1 - Gravity
doesn't show up until Day Four...
ll
Kanda'
<>SPAM-KILLER<>- If you really want to contact me, then -
kandaje<at>bresnan<dot>net
Providing good honest memes - even if you don't get it yet..
You figure it out...
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| User: "Abrams1117" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 06:28:05 PM |
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On Jun 26, 4:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology. When a scroll is rolled together, the spindles come to an
abrupt stop. During the scientific revolution, the idea of a rigid sky
was abandoned, the heavens stopped their supposed revolutions, and the
diurnal motion was attributed to the earth instead.
The essential idea in a scroll being rolled together is that the
revolutions of the revolving spindle come to an end once the spindles
meet. No further rotation is possible. When men learned the laws of
mechanics as the knowledge of the discoveries of Newton and others
became known, belief in the rigid heavenly spheres was finished, and the
perceived motion of the heavens around the earth ended. It is the earth
that rotates, not the heavens, and the discovery of that truth was
foretold by Isaiah. His prophecy of the heavens being rolled together as
a scroll was restated by Jesus, and by John in Revelation. It foretold
the end of the old geocentric cosmology.
Doughttp://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a
falling
fig from the fig tree."
Dissolved is the same event as Malachi 3, 2 Peter 3, etc. The heavens
rolled together as a scroll is just smoke/dark clouds rolling across
the sky , Zephaniah 1:15, Ezekiel 32:7,
Joel 2:2 etc., the host is the same event in Matthew 24 and
Revelation 6.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 08:33:49 PM |
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Abrams1117 wrote:
On Jun 26, 4:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology. When a scroll is rolled together, the spindles come to an
abrupt stop. During the scientific revolution, the idea of a rigid sky
was abandoned, the heavens stopped their supposed revolutions, and the
diurnal motion was attributed to the earth instead.
The essential idea in a scroll being rolled together is that the
revolutions of the revolving spindle come to an end once the spindles
meet. No further rotation is possible. When men learned the laws of
mechanics as the knowledge of the discoveries of Newton and others
became known, belief in the rigid heavenly spheres was finished, and the
perceived motion of the heavens around the earth ended. It is the earth
that rotates, not the heavens, and the discovery of that truth was
foretold by Isaiah. His prophecy of the heavens being rolled together as
a scroll was restated by Jesus, and by John in Revelation. It foretold
the end of the old geocentric cosmology.
Doughttp://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a
falling
fig from the fig tree."
Dissolved is the same event as Malachi 3, 2 Peter 3, etc.
The Hebrew word translated 'dissolved' is 'maqaq', which means: to
decay, pine away, rot, fester.
Many of the pagan deities were associated with the planets, sun and
moon, the constellations, and the rigid heaven. Few consider those
things worthy of worship now.
The heavens
rolled together as a scroll is just smoke/dark clouds rolling across
the sky , Zephaniah 1:15, Ezekiel 32:7,
Joel 2:2 etc., the host is the same event in Matthew 24 and
Revelation 6.
What you wrote seems like smoke and dark clouds IMO.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Steven J." |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
27 Jun 2007 12:02:17 AM |
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On Jun 26, 6:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
Now, the obvious interpretation of this passage is that the sky is a
solid sheet placed above the Earth as a canopy or inverted bowl, and
that the stars are little glowing spots on the sky that could fall to
the Earth. It is a strikingly non-Newtonian, pre-scientific view of
the heavens.
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
Actually, gravity is the explanation for why some things fall down,
and others do not: Newton supposedly propounded the theory to account
for why apples fell to the ground but the moon did not.
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
The solar system orbits the center of the galaxy, and our galaxy and
the Andromeda galaxy orbit their common center of mass. Much of the
rest of the universe is rushing away from us, carried out by the
expansion of space apparently begun with the Big Bang, rather than
falling towards us.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Absolutely nothing in the prophecy contradicts the view of stars
attached to a rigid sky; indeed, the prophecy makes far more sense if
one assumes that the premodern view is correct. How is the Andromeda
galaxy, twice the size of our own galaxy and billions of times larger
than the Earth, supposed to "fall down" (i.e. fall to Earth)?
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Current scientific theories and observations predict that the universe
will expand without end, with most of the visible universe's mass
eventually moving so far away that light from those masses will never
have time to reach Earth. Now, current scientific views might be
wrong, of course. This has happened before, but for the time being
science gives no support whatsoever to a prophecy that the mass of the
universe will "fall" towards Earth.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology. When a scroll is rolled together, the spindles come to an
abrupt stop. During the scientific revolution, the idea of a rigid sky
was abandoned, the heavens stopped their supposed revolutions, and the
diurnal motion was attributed to the earth instead.
This seems a very fanciful and arbitrary interpretation. Again, far
more plausible is the idea of a tent or canopy (a solid, if flexible,
structure) being rolled up, with the stars strewn along its surface
falling off, like leaves scattered over a tent falling off as the tent
is rolled up.
Grade-school science texts can state plainly that the Earth is a ball
and that it orbits the sun, rather than the other way around. Why
should Isaiah need to resort to such bizarre and unintelligible
metaphor? Did anyone, prior to the modern age, interpret this passage
of Isaiah the way you suggest?
The essential idea in a scroll being rolled together is that the
revolutions of the revolving spindle come to an end once the spindles
meet. No further rotation is possible. When men learned the laws of
mechanics as the knowledge of the discoveries of Newton and others
became known, belief in the rigid heavenly spheres was finished, and the
perceived motion of the heavens around the earth ended. It is the earth
that rotates, not the heavens, and the discovery of that truth was
foretold by Isaiah. His prophecy of the heavens being rolled together as
a scroll was restated by Jesus, and by John in Revelation. It foretold
the end of the old geocentric cosmology.
Doughttp://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
-- Steven J.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
27 Jun 2007 06:17:10 AM |
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Steven J. wrote:
On Jun 26, 6:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
Now, the obvious interpretation of this passage is that the sky is a
solid sheet placed above the Earth as a canopy or inverted bowl, and
that the stars are little glowing spots on the sky that could fall to
the Earth. It is a strikingly non-Newtonian, pre-scientific view of
the heavens.
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
Actually, gravity is the explanation for why some things fall down,
and others do not: Newton supposedly propounded the theory to account
for why apples fell to the ground but the moon did not.
No, he said the moon does fall towards the earth, the same as an apple.
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
The solar system orbits the center of the galaxy, and our galaxy and
the Andromeda galaxy orbit their common center of mass. Much of the
rest of the universe is rushing away from us, carried out by the
expansion of space apparently begun with the Big Bang, rather than
falling towards us.
Even when objects are moving, the law of gravity still applies to them.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Absolutely nothing in the prophecy contradicts the view of stars
attached to a rigid sky; indeed, the prophecy makes far more sense if
one assumes that the premodern view is correct. How is the Andromeda
galaxy, twice the size of our own galaxy and billions of times larger
than the Earth, supposed to "fall down" (i.e. fall to Earth)?
Suppose the mass of Andromeda is M1, and the mass of the earth is M2.
Then the theory of universal gravitation says the attractive force
between the earth and Andromeda is F = G*M1*M2/R*R where G is the
gravitational constant and R the distance between earth and Andromeda.
The distance R is measured from the centres of mass of each body. Even
if the force turns out to be negligible, the law can be applied. That's
why it is called 'universal' gravitation.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Current scientific theories and observations predict that the universe
will expand without end, with most of the visible universe's mass
eventually moving so far away that light from those masses will never
have time to reach Earth. Now, current scientific views might be
wrong, of course. This has happened before, but for the time being
science gives no support whatsoever to a prophecy that the mass of the
universe will "fall" towards Earth.
Sure it does, unless there is an exception in Newton's law of universal
gravitation that excludes the earth. Such an exception would mess up all
the trajectories of space craft, though.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology. When a scroll is rolled together, the spindles come to an
abrupt stop. During the scientific revolution, the idea of a rigid sky
was abandoned, the heavens stopped their supposed revolutions, and the
diurnal motion was attributed to the earth instead.
This seems a very fanciful and arbitrary interpretation. Again, far
more plausible is the idea of a tent or canopy (a solid, if flexible,
structure) being rolled up, with the stars strewn along its surface
falling off, like leaves scattered over a tent falling off as the tent
is rolled up.
Nah..
Grade-school science texts can state plainly that the Earth is a ball
and that it orbits the sun, rather than the other way around. Why
should Isaiah need to resort to such bizarre and unintelligible
metaphor? Did anyone, prior to the modern age, interpret this passage
of Isaiah the way you suggest?
There is nothing unintelligible about a scroll being rolled together.
When the spindles meet, they stop rotating. That is what happened to
man's concept of the heavens, in the scientific revolution. The sky
stopped rotating, it was the earth that revolved. Isaiah said it
thousands of years ago. The idea that all the host of heaven "falls
down" is also clearly stated by Isaiah, in the same verse. He said the
stars fall like figs; figs and apples fall in the same way. The prophecy
was mentioned by Jesus and also by John in Revelation. It foretold the
scientific revolution, one of the most significant events in all the
history of man.
The essential idea in a scroll being rolled together is that the
revolutions of the revolving spindle come to an end once the spindles
meet. No further rotation is possible. When men learned the laws of
mechanics as the knowledge of the discoveries of Newton and others
became known, belief in the rigid heavenly spheres was finished, and the
perceived motion of the heavens around the earth ended. It is the earth
that rotates, not the heavens, and the discovery of that truth was
foretold by Isaiah. His prophecy of the heavens being rolled together as
a scroll was restated by Jesus, and by John in Revelation. It foretold
the end of the old geocentric cosmology.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
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| User: "Delusional?" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 12:26:27 PM |
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On Jun 26, 7:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Problem: Newton's laws were blown out for principles of universal
gravitation by general relativity. Einstein called what you describe
"spooky action at a distance" since if we snipped the force of gravity
the earth would fall out of orbit instantly thus exceeding the speed
of light. So it looks like Ezekiel's prophecy was wrong. based on
this the rest of your proposition falls out. Should do a much more
responsible collaboration between science and the Bible by not trying
to prove the Bible with science - can't be done and makes Christians
just look foolish.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Apparently not. See above.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology.
Yet people at that time still supported geocentrism. Why would they
do that if the prophecy was right in front of them? Makes no sense.
Better do exegesis first and let the passage state it claim on its own
terms before you pepper it with these hasty conclusions. Then go back
and get a better grasp of the best theories for universal
gravitation. Then you are in a place to offer such an
interpretation. Good try, but missed the target by a long shot.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 08:00:21 PM |
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Delusional? wrote:
On Jun 26, 7:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Problem: Newton's laws were blown out for principles of universal
gravitation by general relativity.
Well, relativity treats apples and figs similarly, so whether Newton
said it, or Einstein, the fact is that things fall towards each other,
or everything "falls down" towards the earth, or whatever other mass is
in the vicinity.
I think the theory of universal gravitation had a more profound effect
on humanity than Einstein's theory, as its general acceptance put the
idea of rigid heavenly spheres revolving around the earth to rest
forever. Isaiah's prophecy about the heavens resembling a scroll being
rolled together was about the demise of the notion that the heavens
revolved around the earth.
Einstein called what you describe
"spooky action at a distance" since if we snipped the force of gravity
the earth would fall out of orbit instantly thus exceeding the speed
of light. So it looks like Ezekiel's prophecy was wrong.
I don't think Isaiah's prophecy was wrong, it foretold the demise of the
old idea of geocentrism, which implied the heavens revolved around the
earth. And whether you go with Einstein or Newton, things still fall
towards each other, don't they?
based on
this the rest of your proposition falls out. Should do a much more
responsible collaboration between science and the Bible by not trying
to prove the Bible with science - can't be done and makes Christians
just look foolish.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Apparently not. See above.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology.
Yet people at that time still supported geocentrism.
They even modified the Bible to add support for geocentrism in the
hellenistic era.
Why would they
do that if the prophecy was right in front of them? Makes no sense.
Maybe they misunderstood it. Isaiah even foretold this:
Isaiah 29:10-12
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath
closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is
sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I
pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this,
I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
So even though the prophecy of Isaiah foretold the theory of universal
gravitation, and the demise of geocentrism, this prophecy says that the
eyes of the rulers and the seers would be closed, and they would not
understand it.
Better do exegesis first and let the passage state it claim on its own
terms before you pepper it with these hasty conclusions. Then go back
and get a better grasp of the best theories for universal
gravitation. Then you are in a place to offer such an
interpretation. Good try, but missed the target by a long shot.
Isaiah's remarkable prophecies remain a 'book that is sealed' to most
people.
Doug
.
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| User: "Delusional?" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
27 Jun 2007 01:36:52 PM |
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On Jun 26, 9:00 pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Delusional? wrote:
On Jun 26, 7:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Problem: Newton's laws were blown out for principles of universal
gravitation by general relativity.
Well, relativity treats apples and figs similarly, so whether Newton
said it, or Einstein, the fact is that things fall towards each other,
or everything "falls down" towards the earth, or whatever other mass is
in the vicinity.
Um Doug. That in no way means that this was prophetic then. Unless
of course everyone floated around back then and gravity did not
produce falling objects anywhere.
I think the theory of universal gravitation had a more profound effect
on humanity than Einstein's theory, as its general acceptance put the
idea of rigid heavenly spheres revolving around the earth to rest
forever. Isaiah's prophecy about the heavens resembling a scroll being
rolled together was about the demise of the notion that the heavens
revolved around the earth.
Obviously not becuase then Copernicus would not have ventured that
followed by Galileo. That would have been the product of Hebrew
ingenuity in science.
Einstein called what you describe
"spooky action at a distance" since if we snipped the force of gravity
the earth would fall out of orbit instantly thus exceeding the speed
of light. So it looks like Ezekiel's prophecy was wrong.
I don't think Isaiah's prophecy was wrong, it foretold the demise of the
old idea of geocentrism, which implied the heavens revolved around the
earth. And whether you go with Einstein or Newton, things still fall
towards each other, don't they?
You know that it is most likely that there are actually 3 authors of
Isaiah? Still pure speculation that it had even the slightest thought
of geocentrism. Yours is just a speculative interpretation without
any apparent exercise of exegetical responsibility.
based on
this the rest of your proposition falls out. Should do a much more
responsible collaboration between science and the Bible by not trying
to prove the Bible with science - can't be done and makes Christians
just look foolish.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Apparently not. See above.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology.
Yet people at that time still supported geocentrism.
They even modified the Bible to add support for geocentrism in the
hellenistic era.
So the Greeks modified the Bible? Really. Who argues that?
Why would they
do that if the prophecy was right in front of them? Makes no sense.
Maybe they misunderstood it. Isaiah even foretold this:
Isaiah 29:10-12
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath
closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is
sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I
pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this,
I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
So even though the prophecy of Isaiah foretold the theory of universal
gravitation, and the demise of geocentrism, this prophecy says that the
eyes of the rulers and the seers would be closed, and they would not
understand it.
Until Copernicus and Galileo right? Why then? Why those rulers and
not others in the timespan between Ezekiel and Galileo? Why so long
after Galileo that heliocentrism was accepted?
Better do exegesis first and let the passage state it claim on its own
terms before you pepper it with these hasty conclusions. Then go back
and get a better grasp of the best theories for universal
gravitation. Then you are in a place to offer such an
interpretation. Good try, but missed the target by a long shot.
Isaiah's remarkable prophecies remain a 'book that is sealed' to most
people.
No. They remain up for interpretation based on sound exegesis.
Something you fail to demonstrate here.
.
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| User: "Doug" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
28 Jun 2007 07:36:53 AM |
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Delusional? wrote:
On Jun 26, 9:00 pm, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Delusional? wrote:
On Jun 26, 7:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
In Newton's theory of universal gravitation, the stars and all other
heavenly objects are subject to the force of gravity. All objects having
mass are attracted to every other mass in the universe by mutual
gravitational force. Gravity is the explanation for why all things tend
to "fall down."
The earth itself falls towards other masses such as the sun and moon,
and other planets, as well as all the other mass of the universe.
Newton's law of gravitation says two particles of mass M1 and M2 will
attract one another with a force proportional to M1*M2/R*R where R is
the distance separating them. It is a mathematical postulate, and the
theory makes no limitations on the magnitude of R or the relative sizes
of M1 and M2 .
In Newton's theory the gravitation force holding the moon in its orbit
around the earth was compared to the force causing an apple to fall from
an apple tree to the ground. Isaiah's prophecy refers to figs rather
than apples. It correctly foretold the discovery of universal
gravitation. Stars and planets and other masses "fall" like the figs
that fall from a fig tree. The stars are not attached to a rigid sky as
the Greek philosophers and poets thought.
Problem: Newton's laws were blown out for principles of universal
gravitation by general relativity.
Well, relativity treats apples and figs similarly, so whether Newton
said it, or Einstein, the fact is that things fall towards each other,
or everything "falls down" towards the earth, or whatever other mass is
in the vicinity.
Um Doug. That in no way means that this was prophetic then. Unless
of course everyone floated around back then and gravity did not
produce falling objects anywhere.
If you would prefer to call it 'scientific insight' that was revealed to
one of God's prophets, that's ok.
I think the theory of universal gravitation had a more profound effect
on humanity than Einstein's theory, as its general acceptance put the
idea of rigid heavenly spheres revolving around the earth to rest
forever. Isaiah's prophecy about the heavens resembling a scroll being
rolled together was about the demise of the notion that the heavens
revolved around the earth.
Obviously not becuase then Copernicus would not have ventured that
followed by Galileo. That would have been the product of Hebrew
ingenuity in science.
Copernicus mentioned that ideas similar to his had been advanced by
Aristarchus and by one of the Pythagoreans. Also, the astronomer
Seleucus of Babylon adopted the heliocentic view and taught it 'not as a
theory, but a fact', according to Plutarch.
Einstein called what you describe
"spooky action at a distance" since if we snipped the force of gravity
the earth would fall out of orbit instantly thus exceeding the speed
of light. So it looks like Ezekiel's prophecy was wrong.
I don't think Isaiah's prophecy was wrong, it foretold the demise of the
old idea of geocentrism, which implied the heavens revolved around the
earth. And whether you go with Einstein or Newton, things still fall
towards each other, don't they?
You know that it is most likely that there are actually 3 authors of
Isaiah? Still pure speculation that it had even the slightest thought
of geocentrism. Yours is just a speculative interpretation without
any apparent exercise of exegetical responsibility.
Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 66:1 "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth
is my footstool."
What king would rotate his throne around his footstool every day? That
would be ridiculous! This scripture refutes the geocentric views of the
ancient Greek poets and philosophers. Jesus referred to it in Matthew
5:34-35.
based on
this the rest of your proposition falls out. Should do a much more
responsible collaboration between science and the Bible by not trying
to prove the Bible with science - can't be done and makes Christians
just look foolish.
Isaiah's prophecy, which long preceded Newton, was universal in scope
and said everything in heaven, "all their host", falls down, just like
figs falling to the ground. Figs fall to the ground because of gravity,
the same as apples. The fall of an apple or a fig due to gravity is very
similar to the moon falling towards the earth, and gravity is what
maintains the moon in its orbit around the earth. Just as the moon
"falls" towards the earth, the earth itself "falls" towards the moon.
And similarly, everything in the universe "falls" towards every other
mass, including the earth, according to Newton's theory. Isaiah's
prophecy got it right.
Apparently not. See above.
The heavens being 'rolled together as a scroll' foretold the end of the
notion of the revolving heavenly spheres of the old geocentric
cosmology.
Yet people at that time still supported geocentrism.
They even modified the Bible to add support for geocentrism in the
hellenistic era.
So the Greeks modified the Bible? Really. Who argues that?
It was foretold in the prophecies of Daniel. Many flawed cosmological
notions occur in the Bible because of corruptions that were introduced
in the 2nd century BC, which changed the Bible's cosmology to fit that
of the ancient Greeks in the hellenistic era. The changes were initiated
by Antiochus IV, a Seleucid king who controlled Syria, Mesopotamia,
Palestine, and Jerusalem. For more details see:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
Why would they
do that if the prophecy was right in front of them? Makes no sense.
Maybe they misunderstood it. Isaiah even foretold this:
Isaiah 29:10-12
For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath
closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is
sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I
pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this,
I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
So even though the prophecy of Isaiah foretold the theory of universal
gravitation, and the demise of geocentrism, this prophecy says that the
eyes of the rulers and the seers would be closed, and they would not
understand it.
Until Copernicus and Galileo right? Why then? Why those rulers and
not others in the timespan between Ezekiel and Galileo? Why so long
after Galileo that heliocentrism was accepted?
The old geocentric cosmology was demolished in the mid eighteenth
century, when the discoveries of Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, and Newton
and others were widely accepted. That period was called the
'Enlightenment', and it was also foretold, in Daniel's 2,300 day
prophecy. The 'days' can represent years, and there are 2,300 years from
the date of the prophecy (third year of Belshazzar, Daniel 8:1) to the
mid eighteenth century. The heavens were "cleansed" or "set right" when
the 2,300 years were fulfilled.
Better do exegesis first and let the passage state it claim on its own
terms before you pepper it with these hasty conclusions. Then go back
and get a better grasp of the best theories for universal
gravitation. Then you are in a place to offer such an
interpretation. Good try, but missed the target by a long shot.
Isaiah's remarkable prophecies remain a 'book that is sealed' to most
people.
No. They remain up for interpretation based on sound exegesis.
Something you fail to demonstrate here.
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/
.
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| User: "Dan Drake" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
27 Jun 2007 08:10:18 PM |
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On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:26:27 UTC, Delusional? <dtatusko@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 26, 7:36 am, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
Isaiah 34:4 says, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling
fig from the fig tree."
...
Problem: Newton's laws were blown out for principles of universal
gravitation by general relativity.
This is an odd approach to rebutting a rather silly claim. (*) After all,
if someone mereluy prophesied Newton's excellent theory and left out
Einstein, it would still be quite an achievement.
Einstein called what you describe
"spooky action at a distance"
No; spooky action at a distance was his description of the
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen effect, in which determining the quantum state of
one of pair of particles determines the state of the other which may be
ridiculously far away. It seemed, like Schredinger's cat, to raise a
horrible problem at the extremes of quantum theory; unfortunately, the
effect is real.
--
Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
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| User: "Adam" |
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| Title: Re: The revolutions of the heavens ended, like a scroll rolled together |
26 Jun 2007 07:37:00 PM |
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The "heavens" are the "ruling classes" in prophecy.
I've told you this before.
Adam
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