| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Andrew W" |
| Date: |
29 Feb 2004 03:24:34 PM |
| Object: |
The sacrifice |
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination from
the rest of us?
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken to
us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have been
running the asylum all this time.
Jesus says to forgive your enemies but God has never forgiven any of his
enemies.
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you....."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.
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| User: "Carl Rooker" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
01 Mar 2004 12:18:43 PM |
|
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"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to cover
mankinds sin. Adam and Eve's shame were covered
by the skins of animals whose blood was shed.
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the blood
would atone for their sins. The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins. Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the death
of Christ. Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son of God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
No, He demonstrated His love for us;
RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ
died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man,
though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God
demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
Christ died for us. NIV
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination from
the rest of us?
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken
to
us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
Because you have it wrong here. He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
You also have it wrong in that He does not threaten us with Hell. We are
already on the road to Hell without His intervention.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son. NIV
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have been
running the asylum all this time.
Now, why do you people always resort to insult?
Jesus says to forgive your enemies but God has never forgiven any of his
enemies.
--
On the contrary, He paid the ultimate price so His enemies could be
forgiven, if only they would accept this wonderful Gift.
God Bless
Carl
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
01 Mar 2004 03:08:08 PM |
|
|
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
Adam and Eve's shame were covered
by the skins of animals whose blood was shed.
We now have something called clothes.
No need to stick to the old rites.
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the blood
would atone for their sins.
Lucky for us we're not still living under the old Testament.
This is 2004 you know.
The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
Hmm. All I can say is yuk.
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins.
That's because dead animals do not make a good washing detergent and a dead
human should never be used as such.
Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
How exactly?
Have you ever really thought about it or do you just believe everything the
bible says?
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the death
of Christ.
I don't see much difference.
Death is death.
Blood is blood.
The rest is hokey pokey.
Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son of
God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
Why not?
Because the ancient pagan high priests said so?
Like I said, we're in the 21st century now.
Look forward, not backward.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
No, He demonstrated His love for us;
RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless,
Christ
died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man,
though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God
demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
Christ died for us. NIV
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is
it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination
from
the rest of us?
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken
to
us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
Because you have it wrong here.
Your sadistic blood cult has convinced you I'm wrong but I could just as
easily be right.
He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
But he makes us tolerate his dumb rules.
Jesus says to forgive your enemies, and that's without any repentance by
those enemies.
Why can't God do the same?
Because he's a volcano god that's why.
He needs blood and suffering to make him happy.
He then tries to convince us that our misery is all due to our (original)
sins, for which there is conveniently no evidence.
You also have it wrong in that He does not threaten us with Hell. We are
already on the road to Hell without His intervention.
Wrong. He has put us on an auto pilot for hell.
He pre-planned everything to turn out this way.
That is undeniable.
He made us purposely stupid and then performed a mass character
assassination.
It was all staged for who knows what sick purpose.
A truly loving creator simply wouldn't execute such a devious plan.
The god of the bible is clearly not our creator.
He's a demigod who's taken control of this world, and foolish christians are
worshipping him by the millions.
They're all accessories to a cosmic criminal.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
To give someone is one thing but to send them to be slayed is quite another.
Besides, you can't give a person because that would mean that Jesus had no
will of his own.
That would mean he was simply one of God's slaves.
Further, the shedding of blood is not a gesture of love, unless you're a
barbarian, which it seems the god of the bible is.
How christians continue to condone this abominable behaviour I do not know.
that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
How does believing in someone's cruel death lead to eternal life?
You can't set someone free by destroying an innocent life.
It's all just conditioning to make us accept our cruel enslavement more
easily.
17 For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him.
And yet he's cursed and condemned the world so many times.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in
the
name of God's one and only Son. NIV
All one has to do is believe huh?
Why is belief such a precious trait?
I'll tell you why.
Because believing individuals make good slaves.
Why else do you think the bible is so obsessed with the concept of belief?
To an un-brainwashed mind it's obvious.
It is obvious that Christ died to expose the evil and corruption of the
religious power structure of the time.
It had nothing whatsoever to do with the washing away of man's sins.
That same religious power structure is the one that contributed to the
collection of scriptures that went into the bible.
When you read the bible your actually reading their lies.
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have
been
running the asylum all this time.
Now, why do you people always resort to insult?
Because the religious leaders have proven themselves to be lunatics.
It's just that christians can't see it because their too overcome with the
drama and passion of blood and death.
Jesus says to forgive your enemies but God has never forgiven any of his
enemies.
--
On the contrary, He paid the ultimate price so His enemies could be
forgiven, if only they would accept this wonderful Gift.
Blood and death can never be used as gifts.
Why christians can't see this I will never know.
God Bless
Carl
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.
|
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| User: "Carl Rooker" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
03 Mar 2004 12:37:31 PM |
|
|
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins. God
is.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
Adam and Eve's shame were covered
by the skins of animals whose blood was shed.
We now have something called clothes.
No need to stick to the old rites.
And how did those second cloths come about (hint, the first cloths made were
not acceptable). They were made with the
deaths of an animal.
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the
blood
would atone for their sins.
Lucky for us we're not still living under the old Testament.
This is 2004 you know.
Stopped around 30AD actually, with the death of the only One who could pay
for our sins. OT sacrifices were pictures of that one.
The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
Hmm. All I can say is yuk.
So what?
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal
was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins.
That's because dead animals do not make a good washing detergent and a
dead
human should never be used as such.
Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
How exactly?
Have you ever really thought about it or do you just believe everything
the
bible says?
Because your comments about detergent show that you really have no real
interest in an answer.
However, because of willfull disobedience to God, sin, a life is owed. No
animal or human sacrifice could afford to pay that price.
God could afford it. After His Son gave His life for our sin, He raised
Jesus from the dead, thus assuring our victory over death.
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the
death
of Christ.
I don't see much difference.
Death is death.
Blood is blood.
The rest is hokey pokey.
Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son of
God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
Your sadistic blood cult has convinced you I'm wrong but I could just as
easily be right.
Again, use insult instead of an open mind.
No, a sadistic blood cult has convinced me of nothing. A relationship with
God through the Son of God, as is offered to
any who would ask, has convinced me. He made a promise, and keeps it.
He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
But he makes us tolerate his dumb rules.
Thou shall not kill.
Thou shall not steal.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not commit perjury against a neighbor.
Thou shall not covet (desire to have) that which belongs to a neighbor.
Not so dumb really.
Thou shall worship the Lord Your God.
If He does exist, then this only makes sense.
It is not Faith in Christ, His death, Resurrection, and return that makes no
sense. It is your misrepresentation of it that is wrong.
God Bless
Carl
.
|
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
03 Mar 2004 03:10:47 PM |
|
|
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078339061.941801@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ
a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
Well that pretty much says it all about what kind of god we have.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You caused God to do that?
That's what I call power.
Seriously, did you ever consider the possibility that the early religious
leaders just wanted everyone to feel shame and guilt etc to make the people
easier to control, so they made up this sin and redemption business?
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
God doesn't have any blood, and Jesus was never proven to be God beyond what
the embellished scriptures keep passionately asserting.
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the
blood
would atone for their sins.
Lucky for us we're not still living under the old Testament.
This is 2004 you know.
Stopped around 30AD actually, with the death of the only One who could pay
for our sins. OT sacrifices were pictures of that one.
The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
Hmm. All I can say is yuk.
So what?
Christians continue to condone such deplorable acts without the slightest
bit of suspicion of their evil origin.
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal
was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins.
That's because dead animals do not make a good washing detergent and a
dead
human should never be used as such.
Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
How exactly?
Have you ever really thought about it or do you just believe everything
the
bible says?
Because your comments about detergent show that you really have no real
interest in an answer.
Because I can see through each answer.
I can't see why christians can't.
I can only put it down to brainwashing.
Every answer is just a parroting of the sick minded scriptures which were
re-written by the early religious leaders.
However, because of willfull disobedience to God, sin, a life is owed. No
animal or human sacrifice could afford to pay that price.
This by itself clearly shows that God is nothing like Jesus because Jesus
would never call for the death of another to pay for a transgression.
The idea then that Jesus was God is ludicrous.
The two have virtually nothing in common.
One is brutal and vengeful and the other is tolerant and kind.
The human race has been taken for a ride big time.
God could afford it. After His Son gave His life for our sin, He raised
Jesus from the dead, thus assuring our victory over death.
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the
death
of Christ.
I don't see much difference.
Death is death.
Blood is blood.
The rest is hokey pokey.
Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son
of
God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
Your sadistic blood cult has convinced you I'm wrong but I could just as
easily be right.
Again, use insult instead of an open mind.
My mind was open plenty when I was a christian.
It is still open to an extent but I continually find no reason to keep it
that way given the findings of my observations.
No, a sadistic blood cult has convinced me of nothing. A relationship
with
God through the Son of God, as is offered to
any who would ask, has convinced me. He made a promise, and keeps it.
He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
But he makes us tolerate his dumb rules.
Thou shall not kill.
Thou shall not steal.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not commit perjury against a neighbor.
Thou shall not covet (desire to have) that which belongs to a neighbor.
Not so dumb really.
I knew when I was quite young that all or most of those things were wrong
and I didn't have to read it in a book.
Why do christians need to be told by an old book what is clearly common
sense?
Thou shall worship the Lord Your God.
If he's so great then he will get worshipped plenty.
Why does he demand it to be done?
Don't you think that's just a little sus?
If He does exist, then this only makes sense.
It is not Faith in Christ, His death, Resurrection, and return that makes
no
sense. It is your misrepresentation of it that is wrong.
God Bless
Carl
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carl Rooker" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
04 Mar 2004 08:39:14 AM |
|
|
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:404649db$0$20941$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078339061.941801@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross,
but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of
Christ
a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in
the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
Well that pretty much says it all about what kind of god we have.
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's blood
that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created. Your slurs excluded.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You caused God to do that?
That's what I call power.
Seriously, did you ever consider the possibility that the early religious
leaders just wanted everyone to feel shame and guilt etc to make the
people
easier to control, so they made up this sin and redemption business?
Universal concepts of right and wrong were made up by religious leaders to
control people? And, just how would that be done?
You are saying that "Thou shall not commit murder" is something a religious
leader made up to cause someone to be ashamed, so that
said religious leader could then control the person.
You are saying that "Thou shall not steal" was made up by a religious person
to cause someone to be ashamed, so that said
religious leader could then control the person.
I could go on, but this is nonsense. Shame is felt by anyone who has a
sense of right and wrong, knowing that they have done wrong. Those who
don't feel such shame are merely given of themselves to do evil.
And, you use this nonsense argument to dodge the point. Our evil acts are
what have seperated us from a loving Creator. In His love
He has offered us a possibility of reconcilitation with Him. He does that
by taking the just reward for evil upon Himself (through His Son),
and offeres forgiveness to those who would turn from evil to Him.
If you have read any of my posts, you may notice that I never refer to any
religious leader, except for Jesus Christ, Moses, and the Apostles. If your
accusation were true that religious leaders wanted us to feel shame so that
they could control us, then how would you expect any of these
religious leaders to benifit from said control. Except for Jesus, who was
risen from the dead, the rest are all dead. They would not
benifit from your shame in the least way.
How does Jesus benifit from your shame? He died for it, even though you
spurn Him for it.
So, your argument for shame being used to control is nonsense. Used by many
to dodge the issue that they are guilty of willful disobediance
go God, or sin. Used as an argument to dodge any accountability to God for
said sin. And last used by many as an excuse to
spurn the One who loved them enough to die for them.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that
lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His
own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
God doesn't have any blood, and Jesus was never proven to be God beyond
what
the embellished scriptures keep passionately asserting.
Embellished scriptures. Another assertion made without evidence, to dodge
the issue. Besides, you started the thread about
the Blood sacrifices that scripture taught. Comparing the God of Scripture
to a volcanoe god.
The point I am making is that the God of the scriptures is not some
"volcanoe god" as you said, but that He made the sacrifice for our
redemption, of Himself (in His Son), to pay to justice for our evil deeds.
The sacrifice you compared this to is where people will sacrifice
an animal, or another human to, to expiate a god on their behalf.
So, your comparison (which you continue to argue) is not bases upon any
truth, or knowlege of the things which you assert, and then you insert
this argument about "embellished Scriptures", from where you got your
falacious argument.
Whether you believe the Scriptures or not, at leaste be honest enough to
admit the point that the sacrifice of Christ (made by God, to God, and of
God)
is different in kind to the "volcanoe god scenario" of people sacrificing an
animal or person for their own benifit.
God Bless
Carl
.
|
|
|
| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
06 Mar 2004 12:19:10 AM |
|
|
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078411168.355597@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:404649db$0$20941$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078339061.941801@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross,
but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of
Christ
a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency
for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in
the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
Well that pretty much says it all about what kind of god we have.
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's blood
that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created. Your slurs excluded.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You caused God to do that?
That's what I call power.
Seriously, did you ever consider the possibility that the early
religious
leaders just wanted everyone to feel shame and guilt etc to make the
people
easier to control, so they made up this sin and redemption business?
Universal concepts of right and wrong were made up by religious leaders
to
control people? And, just how would that be done?
Some of the commandments are true because for any lie to be successful it
must have some truths. Religion uses the truths as a hook to get the people
in.
But ever notice how christians have no rights or freedoms?
Not even something as innocuous as free speech?
It is the religious leaders who have systematically erased those rights and
freedoms and claimed that it is all God 's rules, restrictions and
requirements.
Then they cover it up by pointing their fingers at you and say that you're a
born sinner in the hope that you will be too scared to speak up and assert
your rights.
You are saying that "Thou shall not commit murder" is something a
religious
leader made up to cause someone to be ashamed, so that
said religious leader could then control the person.
If a person doesn't know from a young age that murder is wrong and has to
read it in a book then there is something wrong with that person.
Most of the commandments are just common decency and common sense.
Why does the religious community keep shoving them in our faces?
You are saying that "Thou shall not steal" was made up by a religious
person
to cause someone to be ashamed, so that said
religious leader could then control the person.
I could go on, but this is nonsense. Shame is felt by anyone who has a
sense of right and wrong, knowing that they have done wrong. Those who
don't feel such shame are merely given of themselves to do evil.
The idea is to feel shame for a short time and then learn to make a better
choice the next time around, not to drag the shame around for the rest of
your life and live in fear of the afterlife.
Christianity is all about sticking sin labels on it's followers like balls
and chains and then have the followers stumble around the rest of their
lives in pain and fear believing that they need saving from themselves.
And, you use this nonsense argument to dodge the point. Our evil acts are
what have seperated us from a loving Creator. In His love
He has offered us a possibility of reconcilitation with Him. He does that
by taking the just reward for evil upon Himself (through His Son),
and offeres forgiveness to those who would turn from evil to Him.
If you have read any of my posts, you may notice that I never refer to any
religious leader, except for Jesus Christ, Moses, and the Apostles. If
your
accusation were true that religious leaders wanted us to feel shame so
that
they could control us, then how would you expect any of these
religious leaders to benifit from said control.
They benefit the same way politicians do.
Money and power.
Of course this happens at the higher levels of the power structure.
The lower level ministers are usually not aware of much of what goes on at
the top.
Except for Jesus, who was
risen from the dead, the rest are all dead. They would not
benifit from your shame in the least way.
It's not the individuals that lived 2000 years ago that are benefiting now,
it's the ones who have inherited the family business who are.
How does Jesus benifit from your shame? He died for it, even though you
spurn Him for it.
It's not Jesus who benefits from our shame, it's those who speak (lie) for
him that do.
The scriptures are abundant with their lies.
So, your argument for shame being used to control is nonsense. Used by
many
to dodge the issue that they are guilty of willful disobediance
go God, or sin. Used as an argument to dodge any accountability to God
for
said sin. And last used by many as an excuse to
spurn the One who loved them enough to die for them.
What makes you think all that stuff is true?
It's all a big drama play to keep you busy while they take your money.
Don't believe me?
Did you buy a bible?
If so then they have some of your money.
Multiply that by 20-40 million and you get the idea how rich they are just
from that one book.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used
to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that
lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His
own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
God doesn't have any blood, and Jesus was never proven to be God beyond
what
the embellished scriptures keep passionately asserting.
Embellished scriptures. Another assertion made without evidence, to dodge
the issue.
There is no evidence either way regarding what happened 2000 years ago
because all the witnesses are dead and the artifacts are ambiguous regarding
their true origin.
The only tool one has in this subject is their own moral reasoning skills.
The problem is that christians have been trained to only believe, trust and
obey a 2000 year old book which has been plagiarised, edited and censored by
the consortium's own scribes and scholars.
Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas "When you become mature, you will no
longer rely on outside human testimony."
Besides, you started the thread about
the Blood sacrifices that scripture taught. Comparing the God of
Scripture
to a volcanoe god.
The point I am making is that the God of the scriptures is not some
"volcanoe god" as you said, but that He made the sacrifice for our
redemption, of Himself (in His Son), to pay to justice for our evil deeds.
The sacrifice you compared this to is where people will sacrifice
an animal, or another human to, to expiate a god on their behalf.
Yep. That's where the scripture writers got the idea of a blood sacrifice.
If it would have been God's idea then he would have thought of something
original and it would have been a loving gesture, not a blood and guts
gesture designed to shock and stupify.
BTW, I'm not trying to be a spelling teacher here but according to my
dictionary volcano doesn't have an 'e' on the end.
So, your comparison (which you continue to argue) is not bases upon any
truth, or knowlege of the things which you assert, and then you insert
this argument about "embellished Scriptures", from where you got your
falacious argument.
It looks fallacious to you because it doesn't agree with your bible and also
because you and other christians have lost your inner moral reasoning
abilities because of your training by the church.
Whether you believe the Scriptures or not, at leaste be honest enough to
admit the point that the sacrifice of Christ (made by God, to God, and of
God)
is different in kind to the "volcanoe god scenario" of people sacrificing
an
animal or person for their own benifit.
Ok, it's different because of it's circular existential parameters, but the
idea at least came from there and is not much less barbaric, senseless,
unsavoury and unholy.
God Bless
Carl
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
04 Mar 2004 08:49:31 AM |
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Carl Rooker wrote:
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's
blood that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created.
It goes deeper than that. You forgot to point to the fact that He paid back
the debt we owe Him.
--
TehGhodTrole: Trolling, for God's sake.
Your Free Insult: Jesus loves you.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 03:33:31 AM |
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On 4 Mar 2004 14:49:31 GMT, "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
Carl Rooker wrote:
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's
blood that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created.
It goes deeper than that. You forgot to point to the fact that He paid back
the debt we owe Him.
And how did we incur that debt? By being the way God made us.
Your God owes us big time.
--
TehGhodTrole: Trolling, for God's sake.
Your Free Insult: Jesus loves you.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 04:44:23 AM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
On 4 Mar 2004 14:49:31 GMT, "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx>
wrote:
Carl Rooker wrote:
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's
blood that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created.
It goes deeper than that. You forgot to point to the fact that He
paid back the debt we owe Him.
And how did we incur that debt? By being the way God made us.
Your God owes us big time.
Well, you can tell that to His Nibbs Upstairs' face on judgement day.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 05:47:17 AM |
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On 5 Mar 2004 10:44:23 GMT, "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
On 4 Mar 2004 14:49:31 GMT, "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx>
wrote:
Carl Rooker wrote:
Since it is God who is making the payment, ie, it is His own Son's
blood that was shed for my sin, it indeed says a lot about
His love for the creatures that He has created.
It goes deeper than that. You forgot to point to the fact that He
paid back the debt we owe Him.
And how did we incur that debt? By being the way God made us.
Your God owes us big time.
Well, you can tell that to His Nibbs Upstairs' face on judgement day.
I get to judge God? Oh boy! That's the best news I've had in a long time.
Ah but I can guess what will happen. I will spend an hour telling God where he is going
wrong and how he can make things right, and he will ignore me like he ignores the cries
of agony from his creations every day.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
06 Mar 2004 12:40:55 AM |
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Barry OGrady wrote:
and he will
ignore me like he ignores the cries of agony from his creations every
day.
Let's for one moment assume that you are correct. Let's also put aside the
inferences to your cries of agony. Provide one sound reason why you should
be listened to at all.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
04 Mar 2004 01:09:40 AM |
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"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078339061.941801@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ
a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
Answer this question for me.
Do you feel like you have crossed God or would be capable of doing so?
If no then why are you taking the blame for an alleged crime that was
claimed by some ancient Middle Easterners to have been committed thousands
of years ago, a crime that can never be proven to have ever taken place, let
alone a crime which is magically inherited genetically and passed on through
generations indefinitely? Since when is a child responsible for it's
ancestors crimes? The ancient Middle Easterners are not really even our
direct ancestors.
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
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| User: "Carl Rooker" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
04 Mar 2004 08:51:01 AM |
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First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
Answer this question for me.
Do you feel like you have crossed God or would be capable of doing so?
If no then why are you taking the blame for an alleged crime that was
claimed by some ancient Middle Easterners to have been committed thousands
of years ago, a crime that can never be proven to have ever taken place,
let
alone a crime which is magically inherited genetically and passed on
through
generations indefinitely? Since when is a child responsible for it's
ancestors crimes? The ancient Middle Easterners are not really even our
direct ancestors.
You are of course referring to the original sin, where Adam and Eve
disobeyed God about eating a forbidden fruit.
I don't have to go there to find areas in my life where I have knowingly
done things that are unjust, wrong, sinful. If you are honest about
yourself, then you would admit the same about yourself. (Unless you are
declaring yourself righteous, i.e. never having done any wrong).
People, in and of themselves, do evil things. Sometimes it is just gossip,
or slighting someone. Sometimes it is as far as killing someone
who did not deserve to be treated so.
Sometimes it is conniving to own some property or position of another.
Sometimes it is stealing such outright.
Forget the nonsense about "ancient Middle Easterners". Our wrong deeds are
an affront to a Just God. They separate us from Him.
Jesus in His parable about the sheep and the goats says that when we do
something for or against another, we have done so to Him.
The point of the Gospel is that He is offering reconciliation to all
mankind, including you. He paid the price for our (your) crimes against
Him.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. NIV
God Bless
Carl
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| User: "Andrew W" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 05:19:41 PM |
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"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078411875.259588@w9.dnx.net...
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
Answer this question for me.
Do you feel like you have crossed God or would be capable of doing so?
If no then why are you taking the blame for an alleged crime that was
claimed by some ancient Middle Easterners to have been committed
thousands
of years ago, a crime that can never be proven to have ever taken place,
let
alone a crime which is magically inherited genetically and passed on
through
generations indefinitely? Since when is a child responsible for it's
ancestors crimes? The ancient Middle Easterners are not really even our
direct ancestors.
You are of course referring to the original sin, where Adam and Eve
disobeyed God about eating a forbidden fruit.
I don't have to go there to find areas in my life where I have knowingly
done things that are unjust, wrong, sinful.
Do you think you deserve to die for those things?
Are you an axe murderer?
If you are honest about
yourself, then you would admit the same about yourself. (Unless you are
declaring yourself righteous, i.e. never having done any wrong).
There is wrong and then there is down right evil.
Most people I've seen are not that evil.
What is God so afraid of that makes him have to dispose of his children in
such a way?
Is that all we are to God? Disposable servants?
People, in and of themselves, do evil things.
I've seen people go out of their way to help total strangers on the street.
I'm sure you have too.
They usually do things like that "in and of themselves".
People are not as inherently evil as the church would have it's followers
believe.
The church has been peddling an extremely one sided view.
I wonder why that is?
Maybe it's so they can get more members and thus more donations.
Sometimes it is just gossip,
or slighting someone. Sometimes it is as far as killing someone
who did not deserve to be treated so.
Sometimes it is conniving to own some property or position of another.
Sometimes it is stealing such outright.
The things that the average Joe are capable of do not deserve a death
sentence or worse, eternal torture.
The people who do go around killing people do not represent the majority and
yet it is said that the majority of humanity will be condemned.
Don't you think there's something wrong with that picture?
Fear and scare mongering to get more members to join the congregation
perhaps?
Forget the nonsense about "ancient Middle Easterners". Our wrong deeds
are
an affront to a Just God. They separate us from Him.
And the bible's barbaric dogma is an affront to modern humanity.
Jesus in His parable about the sheep and the goats says that when we do
something for or against another, we have done so to Him.
That's because we are all part of the body of God.
Therefore it's ridiculous to say that God would punish and dispose of parts
of himself.
In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus said: "The Kingdom is inside of you and
outside of you. When you come to know yourself, you will know that YOU are
the Son of God, but if you do not learn this, you will live in poverty."
"To know oneself is to know God. The self and the divine are identical and
one."
The point of the Gospel is that He is offering reconciliation to all
mankind, including you. He paid the price for our (your) crimes against
Him.
That's like a judge in a court paying the fines of someone he/she's just
sentenced.
It's ridiculous.
On top of that God then threatens to kill us.
He pays our fines and then kills us?
What a whacko.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
God was only able to produce one son?
What's wrong with him?
that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Why is belief so important to God?
Probably because believers make good evangelists and evangelists are good at
enlarging congregation numbers.
17 For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. NIV
And you have to break a few million eggs to make an omelette right?
God Bless
Carl
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 03:33:25 AM |
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On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:37:31 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote:
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins. God
is.
Then your God is a volcano God.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You are ashamed of the way God made you.
The power of the church lies in shame.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
Isn't your God supposed to be above that?
Adam and Eve's shame were covered
by the skins of animals whose blood was shed.
We now have something called clothes.
No need to stick to the old rites.
And how did those second cloths come about (hint, the first cloths made were
not acceptable). They were made with the
deaths of an animal.
All because your God had a hissy fit.
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the
blood
would atone for their sins.
Lucky for us we're not still living under the old Testament.
This is 2004 you know.
Stopped around 30AD actually, with the death of the only One who could pay
for our sins. OT sacrifices were pictures of that one.
What is this force that God must obey?
The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
Hmm. All I can say is yuk.
So what?
Your God is disgusting.
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal
was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins.
That's because dead animals do not make a good washing detergent and a
dead
human should never be used as such.
Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
How exactly?
Have you ever really thought about it or do you just believe everything
the
bible says?
Because your comments about detergent show that you really have no real
interest in an answer.
However, because of willfull disobedience to God, sin, a life is owed. No
animal or human sacrifice could afford to pay that price.
Why was God forced to follow the rituals of the other gods?
Was God unable to see how stupid he was being?
I mean, come on. God never intended his creations to be healthy and happy.
God knew how Adam and Eve would respond because he made them that way.
The only possible purpose for the tree was to give God an excuse to downgrade
all of creation.
God could afford it. After His Son gave His life for our sin, He raised
Jesus from the dead, thus assuring our victory over death.
I'm worried about the mental state of this God of yours.
He seems to enjoy teasing us.
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the
death
of Christ.
I don't see much difference.
Death is death.
Blood is blood.
The rest is hokey pokey.
Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son of
God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
Your sadistic blood cult has convinced you I'm wrong but I could just as
easily be right.
Again, use insult instead of an open mind.
No, a sadistic blood cult has convinced me of nothing. A relationship with
God through the Son of God, as is offered to
any who would ask, has convinced me. He made a promise, and keeps it.
None of the promises in the Bible are true.
You have a relationship with something you have constructed in your mind.
He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
But he makes us tolerate his dumb rules.
Thou shall not kill.
Thou shall not steal.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not commit perjury against a neighbor.
Thou shall not covet (desire to have) that which belongs to a neighbor.
Not so dumb really.
It is dumb to create us with the desire to do wrong things then tell us we shouldn't.
Thou shall worship the Lord Your God.
That is really stupid. God has not even earned our respect.
If He does exist, then this only makes sense.
Worship is stupid.
It is not Faith in Christ, His death, Resurrection, and return that makes no
sense. It is your misrepresentation of it that is wrong.
It is the interpretation that has been forced on you which is wrong.
God Bless
I love the way Christians order God to bless people.
Carl
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "Carl Rooker" |
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| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 08:57:19 AM |
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"Barry OGrady" <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:taig409f8udt65rolfruv9g3hlaedonk3g@4ax.com...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:37:31 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote:
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of
Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
Then your God is a volcano God.
I am really suprised of the lack of inteligence being used in making such a
statement.
As I have repeatedly said, the "volcanoe god" idea is where people sacrifice
an animal or person to placate an act of nature.
In the case of the Christian sacrifice it is God who sacrifices Himself, on
our behalf, to satisfy Justice. There is a really big difference here.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You are ashamed of the way God made you.
The power of the church lies in shame.
Now, you are getting silly. God did not make me or any one else in such a
way that we disobey Him, and do wrong to our
fellows. That was the human choice.
Now, the power of some money grubbing groups indeed is shame, but the Power
of the Body of Christ, the Church, is in the Reconciliation
to God offered by the forgiveness of sin.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His
own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
Isn't your God supposed to be above that?
You are saying that God is above paying the just penalty (death) for our
sin. Praise God that He is not.
He pays the price that you and I can not afford.
God Bless
Carl
.
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| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 03:54:39 PM |
|
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"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078498658.11417@w9.dnx.net...
"Barry OGrady" <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:taig409f8udt65rolfruv9g3hlaedonk3g@4ax.com...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:37:31 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross,
but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of
Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency
for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in
the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my sins.
God
is.
Then your God is a volcano God.
I am really suprised of the lack of inteligence being used in making such
a
statement.
As I have repeatedly said, the "volcanoe god" idea is where people
sacrifice
an animal or person to placate an act of nature.
In the case of the Christian sacrifice it is God who sacrifices Himself,
on
our behalf, to satisfy Justice. There is a really big difference here.
He sacrifices Himself to satisfy his own Justice?
That's not justice, that's madness.
A sacrifice is when someone gives up some of their time to help another.
Going on a bloodletting episode helps no one.
There are many ways he could have helped us using love but spilling his
blood is not one of them. Love and blood don't mix.
It's just a big show, a shock tactic to break people's will so they become
like sheep.
It may have worked in the brutal Colosseum days (obviously it's still
working on some sickos even today) but now it's 2004.
The god of the bible is a grandstander and furthermore, he stole his idea
from the old pagan god worshippers which also makes him a copy cat.
No wonder he hasn't shown his face since.
I am ashamed of my sins which caused God to pay for them.
You are ashamed of the way God made you.
The power of the church lies in shame.
Now, you are getting silly. God did not make me or any one else in such a
way that we disobey Him, and do wrong to our
fellows. That was the human choice.
If we are so full of evil then how could we have come from such a beautiful
being as what God is presented to be.
You would think that some goodness would have been passed on genetically.
There is only one other explanation and that is that God isn't our father at
all.
That only leaves one other individual and that is Satan.
If that's the case then that changes everything.
The worst is the fact that we've all been lied to for the last 2000 years or
more.
Now, the power of some money grubbing groups indeed is shame, but the
Power
of the Body of Christ, the Church, is in the Reconciliation
to God offered by the forgiveness of sin.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to
cover
mankinds sin.
Using blood has always been a pagan rite.
You'd think that in the 21st century christians could leave that
lunacy
behind.
Christians are not exactly normal.
The way you are stating it, that is correct. Pagans used the blood of
animals and sometimes humans to expiate a god.
Again, I am not using blood. Neither is the Church. God is using His
own
blood. This is a big difference which you ignor.
Isn't your God supposed to be above that?
You are saying that God is above paying the just penalty (death) for our
sin. Praise God that He is not.
If your children disobey you do you kill them?
Is that love?
Is that justice?
Did the child learn anything?
Is that the example God wants parents to learn from?
Is death better than proper education?
There are different kinds of sin.
Not all sins deserve a death sentence or eternal torture.
Not everyone goes around killing people.
There is justice and then there is brutality.
The kind of justice you're talking about is similar to that which Saddam
Hussein used to use on his insubordinates.
In most modern countries we have evolved beyond the death penalty.
God appears to be still stuck in Spartacus mode.
That's what happens when the boss leaves the shop and lets the juniors run
the place.
The boss has been gone for 2000 years and look at the mess this world has
become.
Who want's to work under such a negligent and careless boss?
He pays the price that you and I can not afford.
The price has been jacked up on purpose.
He planned it that way to break us.
If we were truly his children then breaking us would not be necessary.
We're obviously not his children.
Our real father can only be Satan.
God Bless
Carl
--
Andrew Werner.
Religion investigator, dogma police and thought provocateur.
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save
you..."
~ Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
.
|
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| User: "Carl Rooker" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
07 Mar 2004 03:49:00 PM |
|
|
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4048f724$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078498658.11417@w9.dnx.net...
"Barry OGrady" <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:taig409f8udt65rolfruv9g3hlaedonk3g@4ax.com...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:37:31 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4043a63a$0$12760$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1078165141.49067@w9.dnx.net...
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross,
but
that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little
more
than
a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of
Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
You should be ashamed about using the blood of another as currency
for
paying for man's mistakes, assuming the original sin isn't a lie in
the
first place to make us all feel guilty and sorry.
First off, I am not using another man's blood for payment for my
sins.
God
is.
Then your God is a volcano God.
I am really suprised of the lack of inteligence being used in making
such
a
statement.
As I have repeatedly said, the "volcanoe god" idea is where people
sacrifice
an animal or person to placate an act of nature.
In the case of the Christian sacrifice it is God who sacrifices Himself,
on
our behalf, to satisfy Justice. There is a really big difference here.
He sacrifices Himself to satisfy his own Justice?
That's not justice, that's madness.
A sacrifice is when someone gives up some of their time to help another.
Going on a bloodletting episode helps no one.
There are many ways he could have helped us using love but spilling his
blood is not one of them. Love and blood don't mix.
It's just a big show, a shock tactic to break people's will so they become
like sheep.
It may have worked in the brutal Colosseum days (obviously it's still
working on some sickos even today) but now it's 2004.
The god of the bible is a grandstander and furthermore, he stole his idea
from the old pagan god worshippers which also makes him a copy cat.
No wonder he hasn't shown his face since.
He did not spend time with us. Jesus spent 30 some years with us, and still
spends time with those who accept His offer of reconciliation to God.
I am going to end this in saying you have no idea of what the issues really
are in God's sacrifice. You just blindly attack what you
have no interest in understanding.
If you did try and understand it (I did not say accept it) then you would
not have said that last piece.
God Bless
Carl
.
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| User: "Kadaitcha Man" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 04:45:40 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady wrote:
I'm worried
So why do you tell people you don't care?
.
|
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
05 Mar 2004 05:48:18 AM |
|
|
On 5 Mar 2004 10:45:40 GMT, "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam@kadaitcha.cx> wrote:
Barry OGrady wrote:
I'm worried
So why do you tell people you don't care?
I don't care.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice -- PAULINE FALSE PROMISES |
01 Mar 2004 12:51:42 PM |
|
|
Carl Rooker wrote:
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:40425893$0$15134$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
Not at all ashamed that the Bible does indeed call the death of Christ a
"blood sacrifice" for the payment of our sins.
From the very beginning of our sin, the Blood sacrifice was used to cover
mankinds sin. Adam and Eve's shame were covered
by the skins of animals whose blood was shed.
===>Why call that a "sacrifice"???
Did YHWH ELOHIM "sacrifice" the animal TO HIMSELF
because he wanted to
"smell the sweet savour" of the animal's burning flesh???
(SEE: Genesis 8:21
"Yahweh smelled the sweet savor..." WEB)
The Old Testament sacrifices were made with the stated idea that the blood
would atone for their sins.
The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing.
The difference between the Death of Christ and the death of an animal was
that the death of an animal could not wash away
our sins. Only the death of the Son of God was able to do this.
===>HOW???
Explain the difference.
Or are you just making an assertion?
You mention that "The sinners were often
sprinkled with said blood for ceremonial cleansing."
How was any "sinner" sprinkled with the blood of Jesus?
"Washing away" sins with blood is an ancient Pagan concept,
already noted and ridiculed by the great philosopher
Heraclitus!
This is also the difference between so-called volcanoe gods, and the death
of Christ. Humans being sacrificed to
a thing of nature (idolatry) is not even in the same class as the Son of God
being sacrificed for our sins, to pay the penalty
of our sins to the Justice of an Almighty God.
===>The Mystery Religions had the same idea.
Saul/Paul simply adopted the concept for his own cult.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
No, He demonstrated His love for us;
RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ
died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man,
though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God
demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
Christ died for us. NIV
===>That is the Pauline idea.
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination from
the rest of us?
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken
to
us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
Because you have it wrong here. He does not tolerate sin. He will Pay for
it for those who repent and turn to Him through His Son,
but He never tolerates it.
You also have it wrong in that He does not threaten us with Hell. We are
already on the road to Hell without His intervention.
JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son. NIV
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have been
running the asylum all this time.
Now, why do you people always resort to insult?
Jesus says to forgive your enemies but God has never forgiven any of his
enemies.
--
On the contrary, He paid the ultimate price so His enemies could be
forgiven, if only they would accept this wonderful Gift.
===>That is the Pauline fantasy and promise:
that none of his converts would die, because
"Christos" had "defeated death" and as believers they would
be soon whisked away into "heaven" by the coming "Christos".
Of course he lied, and they all died. But he was not around to
be sued for false advertizing. -- L.
.
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| User: "Indigo Moon Man" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
03 Mar 2004 07:48:54 PM |
|
|
Andrew W <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> spake thusly:
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
Of course it is a blood sacrifice but that hardly makes God a 'volcano god',
whatever that is.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
No, his blood was shed to cover our sins. The Bible is clear on this point
(Matthew 26:28).
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination from
the rest of us?
God actually tolerates a lot from us. He forgives much and he keeps on and
on forgiving us.
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken
to us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have been
running the asylum all this time.
Not all men who call on the name of God or who claim to be led by God are of
God (Matthew 7:21-23).
Jesus says to forgive your enemies but God has never forgiven any of his
enemies.
Not true. God has forgiven much.
--
A Voice in the Wilderness:
http://avoice.netfirms.com
.
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| User: "Rick" |
|
| Title: Re: The sacrifice |
04 Mar 2004 08:03:53 AM |
|
|
"Indigo Moon Man" <indigomoon@bonbon.net> wrote in message
news:c261vb$1pe5kv$1@ID-70710.news.uni-berlin.de...
Andrew W <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> spake thusly:
Christians say that Jesus payed our debt by dying on the cross, but that
would make it a blood sacrifice which would make God little more than a
volcano god.
Of course it is a blood sacrifice but that hardly makes God a 'volcano
god',
whatever that is.
It's more like God demonstrated his love for us by tolerating the brutal
death of his son without striking us down for the crime.
No, his blood was shed to cover our sins. The Bible is clear on this
point
(Matthew 26:28).
But if he was able to tolerate his only son's brutal death, then why is
it
now so hard for him to tolerate a little mischief and insubordination
from
the rest of us?
God actually tolerates a lot from us. He forgives much and he keeps on
and
on forgiving us.
Why the constant threats of hell by his earthly messengers?
We are after all only children in his eyes, and besides he hasn't spoken
to us for 2000 years so what does he expect?
It's all very suspicious.
It appears as though it's the lunatics (religious leaders) that have
been
running the asylum all this time.
Not all men who call on the name of God or who claim to be led by God are
of
God (Matthew 7:21-23).
| | |
