| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Martin Willett" |
| Date: |
14 Sep 2004 10:19:13 AM |
| Object: |
The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
Christianity is a closed belief system that does not rely on any
external references whatsoever in order to justify itself. The system
only really works when you grow up with it and assume its teachings
gradually. If you were to come across them in adult life, and took
them on fresh you would probably be aware that they make no sense in
pieces and only as a whole, most of the teachings make very poor
logic.
Here is a rough outline of the basic Christian system.
1] God is good.
2] Good is good.
3] Faith is good, blind faith is better.
4] The Bible is true.
5] Things only go in the Bible if they are true.
6] Everything in the Bible is true (this can be taken literally or
figuratively.)
7] All other gods are false. (Proof? Are they in the Bible? Aha! QED.)
8] Doubting any of the above points is a sin.
9] Sin may or may not be promoted by Satan.
OK, that's it. Instant religion, just add the Bible. Fortunately the
Bible is so contradictory and people's ability to believe whatever
they want is so great that The Bible is able to justify whatever you
want it to justify. Any sins by other Christians are down to
misreading the Bible or to the work of Satan. So it is perfectly OK
for you to be a Christian and be gay, or kill gays, the Bible says you
are right either way.
On top of the basics contained in the Bible we then get dogmas. These
are just added in to the mix by whoever is running your bit of the
faith at the time, this can be done pretty much at their discretion
and retrospective biblical grade authority can be attached to it
later. So Mary can be the Mother of God or a false idol raised by the
blaspheming Antichrist Bishop of Rome, as the case may be.
It is really quite amazing that such a simple piece of self-hypnosis
as this actually works. It works well because it has evolved over 70
or so generations, and that is just since the last major revision in
the time of Jesus. Those bits that really work well always get passed
down, other bits are neglected. Evolution works to keep the message
on-message and effective.
Over time the faith has changed but it has never lost the power to win
converts or, far more importantly, to hold the children born into the
faith. You might ask why does a faith like this spread itself. For
exactly the same reason a computer virus, a chain letter or any
organism reproduces; that which can reproduce does reproduce. It is
not in the interests of any unseen Mr Big or shady characters it is
simply in the nature of the replicating entity to replicate. If it
didn't replicate ruthlessly it would not have survived, as it has,
from the dawn of civilization.
This is the memetic analysis of Christianity, it exists in a strong
and powerful form today because it has successfully replicated itself
vertically over 70 generations and horizontally from a few dissidents
in a minor outpost of a mighty empire to become a major suite of
competing but still co-operating sects that span most of the planet.
The tactic of schism has sometimes helped the Christian faith survive,
sometimes it has failed. Failed sects wither away or are absorbed by
better adapted sects. The Shakers through death and no natural
replacement (they were against even marital sex) the Puritans and 101
flavours of Methodists lost them to other sects. Most sects will die
within three generations of their founder, the ones that survive have
proved themselves strong and they are unlikely then ever to die.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
14 Sep 2004 03:09:30 PM |
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--
editor@mwillett.org
"Martin Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:2qogf3F11r589U1@uni-berlin.de.. Organized.
Christian Religion is a closed belief system that does not rely on
any
external references whatsoever in order to justify itself.
But then Organized Christian Religion does n't repersent the
teachings
Of Christ or Jesus.
The system
only really works when you grow up with it and assume its teachings
gradually.
But I grew up in that system and still don't believe in it. In fact
that is
why I hate it. I want revenge for the lies I was told.
If you were to come across them in adult life, and took
them on fresh you would probably be aware that
most of the teachings make very poor logic.
Take the comandment of "thou shall not kill" everyone knows, Killing
is fun.
Here is a rough outline of the basic Organized
Christian Religious system.
1] God is good.
2] Good is good.
3] Faith is good, blind faith is better.
4] The Bible is true.
5] Things only go in the Bible if they are true.
6] Everything in the Bible is true (this can be taken literally or
figuratively.)
7] All other gods are false. (Proof? Are they in the Bible? Aha!
QED.)
8] Doubting any of the above points is a sin.
9] Sin may or may not be promoted by Satan.
Of course none of this is the teachings of Jesus but I am
not smart enough to know the difference.
OK, that's it. Instant religion, just add the Bible. So it is
perfectly OK
for you to be a Christian and be gay, or kill gays, the Bible says
you
are right either way.
The bible also says not to use it as the authority for anything but
since
I can't find that on Google, it does not exist. And sence Christians
of
Organized Religion got it wrong, I amsure thereis nogod. I can't
even prove
I exist. But I am sure everyone who replies to me is Michael.
This is the "Me" metic analysis of Christianity,
and you all know I know nothing about religion.
Eversince I challenged God to educate me I have
been in a state of confusion and I will never accept
the Truth I have seen.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
PS I am sure this all comes from Michael's computer.
OR DOESIT!
Follow no man or book but, "The Spirit".
alt.2600.hackers
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
22 Sep 2004 01:42:34 AM |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:09:30 -0700, "Martin Willett"
<willett@usenet.com> wrote:
People please stop teasing Willett. He does not know what he is
doing. I realize you are just playing with him as he does to others
but you know what you are doing and he does not. He does not
understand the pain he causes nor does he care. I beg you, show
The compassion in unconditional love.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
22 Sep 2004 02:51:48 PM |
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post.here@anytime.com- wrote:
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:09:30 -0700, "Martin Willett"
<willett@usenet.com> wrote:
People please stop teasing Willett. He does not know what he is
doing. I realize you are just playing with him as he does to others
but you know what you are doing and he does not. He does not
understand the pain he causes nor does he care. I beg you, show
The compassion in unconditional love.
Come off it Michael, that is lame even by your low standards. Haven't
you figured it out yet, you are barely worth my time. You have
volunteered for the treatment you are receiving by your posing,
boasting and hypocrisy.
You claim to be a man of God and live in The Mind of Christ and yet
you are petty, vindictive deceitful and vain. If that is what
spiritual incite brings people you can keep it.
You have set up and paid for a domain name using my name. You have set
up and been expelled from newsgroup service providers for abusing
email addresses on my website and you have been exposed as a fraud.
Why do you do it? It can't be for the money, can it? I'm sure you
could earn more busking.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
22 Sep 2004 03:53:41 PM |
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Martin Willett wrote:
post.here@anytime.com- wrote:
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:09:30 -0700, "Martin Willett"
<willett@usenet.com> wrote:
You claim to be a man of God and live in The Mind of Christ and yet
you are petty, vindictive deceitful and vain. If that is what
spiritual incite brings people you can keep it.
That should have said "insight", but then again...
incite v.tr. (often foll. by to or to + infin.)
urge or stir up.
incitation n.
incitement n.
inciter n.
[Middle English via French inciter from Latin incitare (as in-2,
citare ‘rouse’)]
insight n. (usu. foll. by into)
1 the capacity of understanding hidden truths etc., esp. of character
or situations.
2 an instance of this.
insightful adj.
insightfully adv.
[Middle English, probably of Scandinavian and Low German origin (as
in-2, sight)]
We can all make mistakes, as the dalek said climbing off the dustbin.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Dannan DeCrete" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
02 Oct 2004 12:50:39 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:53:41 +0100, Martin Willett
<ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
post.here@anytime.com- wrote:
Are you replying to yourself? Again!
--
D.DeCrete
Use you life to improve the life of those who will come here after
we are gone and you make the same sacrifice as Christ, and it is
just as important. [ a gift to people you will never see or know]
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
03 Oct 2004 01:52:15 AM |
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Dannan DeCrete wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:53:41 +0100, Martin Willett
<ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Martin Willett wrote:
post.here@anytime.com- wrote:
Are you replying to yourself? Again!
How.
Now then Big Chief Running Joke, how was Danville? A fate worse than
death?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
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| User: "Dannan DeCrete" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
03 Oct 2004 02:21:37 AM |
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On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:52:15 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett@mwillett> wrote:
Now then Big Chief Running Joke, how was Danville? A fate worse than
death?
I am sure you are far to busy at your site to read anything here.
But Danville is a great place on the border of a large wildlife
sanctuary. High desert meadows and forests of aspin and other
trees with elk and dear and a large cougar population and wild horses.
No mecanical transports alowed. It is as close to heaven as
a man can get with out leaving earth. I wish I could stay
there all the time but the snow is ***** deep in the winter but
that would be over your head wouldn't it.
--
D.DeCrete
Use you life to improve the life of those who will come here after
we are gone and you make the same sacrifice as Christ, and it is
just as important. [ a gift to people you will never see or know]
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
.
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| User: "Martin Willett" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
03 Oct 2004 04:16:25 AM |
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Dannan DeCrete wrote:
On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 07:52:15 +0100, Martin Willett
<mwillett@mwillett> wrote:
Now then Big Chief Running Joke, how was Danville? A fate worse
than
death?
I am sure you are far to busy at your site to read anything
here.
But Danville is a great place on the border of a large wildlife
sanctuary. High desert meadows and forests of aspin and other
trees with elk and dear and a large cougar population and wild
horses.
No mecanical transports alowed. It is as close to heaven as
a man can get with out leaving earth. I wish I could stay
there all the time but the snow is ***** deep in the winter but
that would be over your head wouldn't it.
What are you suggesting?
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
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| User: "Z80" |
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| Title: Re: The Self Fulfilling Prophecy |
03 Oct 2004 02:45:42 PM |
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Balor's Empty Eyesocket.
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| User: "Godfrey" |
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| Title: The Great Totem: A Brief History |
15 Sep 2004 01:48:21 AM |
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While I seem to disagree with you on the nature and value of religion
in general (i.e. that it is necessarily a bad thing) I must concede
that you make some excellent points regarding specific dogmatic
issues, especially with Christianity. The religion is full of glaring
contradictions, but since even the worst of them can be explained away
as allegory you'd be wasting your breath by trying to point them out
to the average believer. Either they're surpassingly obvious or
they're not, depending on what someone wants or needs to believe.
Christianity is a closed belief system that does not rely on any
external references whatsoever in order to justify itself. The system
only really works when you grow up with it and assume its teachings
gradually. If you were to come across them in adult life, and took
them on fresh you would probably be aware that they make no sense in
pieces and only as a whole, most of the teachings make very poor
logic.
To illustrate your point, simply ask your favorite Christian what is
so illogical about, say, Greek mythology. Having been raised to
believe that it was a myth invented by a comparatively primitive
society, they are almost certain to scoff a bit or at the very least
to view it condescendingly as quaint folklore. Yet these same people
will tie themselves in knots defending the ratiocination of their own
mythos. Human nature is a fascinating thing.
Here is a rough outline of the basic Christian system.
1] God is good.
2] Good is good.
3] Faith is good, blind faith is better.
4] The Bible is true.
5] Things only go in the Bible if they are true.
6] Everything in the Bible is true (this can be taken literally or
figuratively.)
7] All other gods are false. (Proof? Are they in the Bible? Aha! QED.)
8] Doubting any of the above points is a sin.
9] Sin may or may not be promoted by Satan.
OK, that's it. Instant religion, just add the Bible. Fortunately the
Bible is so contradictory and people's ability to believe whatever
they want is so great that The Bible is able to justify whatever you
want it to justify. Any sins by other Christians are down to
misreading the Bible or to the work of Satan. So it is perfectly OK
for you to be a Christian and be gay, or kill gays, the Bible says you
are right either way.
It has always been less about what the Bible says than about how and
by whom the Bible is interpreted. And as you point out, the
equivocality of the actual text leaves it open to endless
reinterpretation. The Council of Nicea, a relatively small group of
men, decided what would be included in the Bible (the book of Enoch,
for example, was left on the cutting room floor). Thus the Holy Word
of God is nothing more than the scribblings of men assembled by other
men hundreds of years later, many of whom operated under political
agendas. Even the Church acknowledges this: they just claim that
these men were under some sort of holy guidance and let it go at that.
It's amazing the lengths to which intelligent people will go in order
to avoid the discomfort of truth.
On top of the basics contained in the Bible we then get dogmas. These
are just added in to the mix by whoever is running your bit of the
faith at the time, this can be done pretty much at their discretion
and retrospective biblical grade authority can be attached to it
later. So Mary can be the Mother of God or a false idol raised by the
blaspheming Antichrist Bishop of Rome, as the case may be.
It is really quite amazing that such a simple piece of self-hypnosis
as this actually works. It works well because it has evolved over 70
or so generations,
I disagree: it worked well even in the time of Jesus. It is the
message itself, not the superstitious drivel in which it is
giftwrapped. It resonated then just as it does now: love your
neighbor, be kind to children, feed the hungry. Question is, when
will mankind be free of the need for the superstition part and able to
use only the message part? I think it'll be a long while yet...
and that is just since the last major revision in
the time of Jesus. Those bits that really work well always get passed
down, other bits are neglected. Evolution works to keep the message
on-message and effective.
I posited as much in an earlier post ("The Evolution of God").
Religion is a tool, whether we wield it wittingly or otherwise, upon
ourselves or upon others. Sometimes it's a tool for calming fears,
sometimes for justifying behavior, and sometimes for controlling that
behavior. The sensibilities of a given religion evolve (or devolve)
in accordance with the mindset of the people who practice it, which is
why public stonings and beheadings are unheard of in the modern West
while the Islamic peoples still seem to be able to reconcile such
relative barbarity with their version of morality.
The Inquisition, the witch burnings, the Crusades and other such
savagery was perpetrated by Christians, but it was an altogether
different faith at the time. So while religious evolution may prolong
a particular faith's longevity, it's not a completely negative thing.
I'm glad Christianity has, at least, evolved past the
atheist-quartering phase.
Over time the faith has changed but it has never lost the power to win
converts or, far more importantly, to hold the children born into the
faith. You might ask why does a faith like this spread itself. For
exactly the same reason a computer virus, a chain letter or any
organism reproduces; that which can reproduce does reproduce. It is
not in the interests of any unseen Mr Big or shady characters it is
simply in the nature of the replicating entity to replicate. If it
didn't replicate ruthlessly it would not have survived, as it has,
from the dawn of civilization.
This is the memetic analysis of Christianity, it exists in a strong
and powerful form today because it has successfully replicated itself
vertically over 70 generations and horizontally from a few dissidents
in a minor outpost of a mighty empire to become a major suite of
competing but still co-operating sects that span most of the planet.
You make it sound so insidious, when in fact it's quite natural. It
is analogous to a virus or a chain letter only on a surface level: in
reality it is more like fire; people gather around it when they feel
cold, use it to cook their food, and forget about it on warm, pleasant
days. That is why it has survived. But it is a double-edged sword;
fire can be dangerous and destructive if it is misused.
Christianity is indeed a meme complex in the Dawkinsian sense- the
children who are raised in its presence know nothing else, and many
conquered populations have been forced to practice it against their
will. But many also gather around it for warmth when they need to,
and if it were not Christianity it would be some other religion
because that's how the human psyche is wired. Only a very few
transcendent genius-types are immune to this proclivity, most of whom
frequent this newsgroup. ;-)
The tactic of schism has sometimes helped the Christian faith survive,
sometimes it has failed. Failed sects wither away or are absorbed by
better adapted sects. The Shakers through death and no natural
replacement
(they were against even marital sex)
Even marital sex with cute chicks? I'm so glad I'm a transcendent
genius-type...
the Puritans and 101
flavours of Methodists lost them to other sects. Most sects will die
within three generations of their founder, the ones that survive have
proved themselves strong and they are unlikely then ever to die.
I think it's ingenuous to proclaim Christianity or religion in general
as a one-hundred-percent-bad thing (or vice-versa)- not that you did.
I view it as the natural state of man, at least for the moment.
Evolution works slowly, and perhaps someday there will no longer be a
need for the hocus-pocus part of it. Meanwhile, however, I'm glad
somebody's looking over their shoulder, telling them not to commit
violence against me and the people I care about.
Saves me money on bullets. :-)
Godfrey.
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