Religions > Bible > The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners
| Topic: |
Religions > Bible |
| User: |
"Carl" |
| Date: |
05 Jan 2008 06:35:02 PM |
| Object: |
The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
I found the following article written by Michael Gowens to be quite
interesting and thought-provoking.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners
by Michael Gowens
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of
a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent
forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
Galatians 4:4-6
The Bible, because it is the word of the eternal, righteous, and immutable
God, never contradicts itself. When properly understood, there is an amazing
symmetry and consistency in the historical facts it cites, the ethical
standards it upholds, and the theological truths it champions. Whenever an
apparent contradiction occurs, the disharmony is not in God's book, but in
man's mind. The interpreter's challenge, consequently, is essentially a
matter of synthesizing each verse with its immediate context, then with the
particular book in which it appears, then with the other inspired writing of
that same human author, and finally, with the many other claims the Bible
makes as a whole. He does this by comparing scripture with scripture. When a
level of consistency is achieved so that the truths fit together in a
unified way, like the many pieces of jigsaw puzzle go together to form a big
picture, then he can be reasonably certain that his view is correct.
Admittedly, accurate interpretation is not easy. But neither is it
impossible. Divine help notwithstanding, the more you know- the better grasp
you have of the big picture-the easier it will be to understand how all the
theological pieces fit together. Remember, the goal is to understand every
truth in the light of every other truth so that a kind of theological unity,
consistency, harmony, and symmetry prevails.
With that premise, I proceed to state a hypothesis which I will then
endeavor to prove: The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity makes the doctrines
of unconditional election, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and
eternal security a necessity. In other words, "the doctrine of grace" is the
only theology of salvation that is consistent with the revealed truth that
God is triune. That's my hypothesis. Let's attempt to establish it
Scripturally.
God is Tripersonal
Scripture teaches unequivocally that God is triune. The Godhead is composed
of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit: "For there are three that bear
record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three
are one" (I Jno. 5:7). Few tenets of the Christian faith have come under
greater attack than the doctrine of the Trinity, and few verses of Scripture
have been the subject of greater technical scrutiny that I John 5:7, no
doubt because it is so unmistakably clear.
I John 5:7 defines the Trinity in terms of "three Persons within the unity
of one God:" "There are three that bear record in heaven. and these three
are one." God is, therefore, triune, for "trinity" means "tri-unity." This
doctrine is, in Pauline language, a Divine mystery. There is more to it than
finite minds can comprehend. From passages like Matthew 28:19, however,
where the Lord commissions the church to baptize " in the name of the
Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," a formula for expressing
this mysterious doctrine emerges. Note the distinction between the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Ghost implied by the use of the conjunction "and" :
".in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." The
language implies that there is a distinction of persons in the Godhead. The
Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the
Father. They are distinct, the one from the other. Now note that the word
"name" is singular. Jesus did not say "in the names of the Father, and of
the Son, and of the Spirit," but "in the name.", singular. This suggests
that there is a unity of essence within the Godhead. From this verse, the
Christian faith derives the formula expressing the doctrine of the Trinity
in terms of "a distinction of Persons but a unity of essence." In other
words, there is within the Godhead three Divine Persons - the Father, the
Son, and the Spirit - who are one in mind, in attribute, in design, in
purpose, in ability, and in glory. The Father is 100% God; the Son is 100%
God; and the Spirit is100% God. Yes, that is a mystery, not unlike the
mystery of the two natures of Christ who was at the same time God of very
God and man of very man, not half God and half man. Formulae like this are
not intended to explain everything so that no mystery remains, but to
safeguard the mystery so that God is not misrepresented by those who speak
in His name.
Both oneness and threeness are basic to the being of God. When Christians
say they believe in the Trinity, they are not saying that there is one
Person in the Godhead who wears three masks, like comedian Red Skelton
playing his three famous characters - Klemm Kididdlehopper, Freddie the
Freeloader, and The Mean Little Kid - all in the same skit. It is not that
God sometimes plays the role of the Father, then decides to be the Son, and
then puts on the mask of the Spirit. That's unitarianism! The unitarian
model fails to explain how there could be interaction within the Godhead as
expressed in John14:16: "I [the Son] will pray the Father and He will send
the Comforter, that He may abide with you forever;" and Psalm110:1: "The
Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand till I make the enemies
thy footstool." God is not a unit, but a unity. Neither are they saying that
they worship three Gods. That's tritheism! But they are saying that there
are three Persons in the Godhead, but one God (I Cor. 8:4-7; cf. Deut. 6:4;
Jno. 10:30; 2 Cor. 3:17). Biblical and Historical Christianity is
unquestionably trinitarian (Lk. 1:35; Jno. 14:16; Jno. 15:26; Eph. 2:18;
Mt.28:19; 2Cor. 13:14; I Jno. 5:7; Rev. 1:4-5).
Salvation is the Work of God
So, God is a trinity. That's premise one. Now let's establish a second
premise from Scripture, namely, that salvation is God's work, not man's:
"Salvation is of the Lord" (Jon. 2:9); "so then it is not of him that
willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom.
9:16); "[God] who hath saved us and called us with a holy calling, not
according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace which was
given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).
What does it mean to say that salvation is God's work? It means that God
works alone, apart from man's assistance in the salvation of sinners;
therefore, all glory goes to God: "But of Him are you in Christ Jesus, who
of God is make unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and
redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him
glory in the Lord" (I Cor. 1:30-31). It also means that the three Persons of
the Godhead work together in the salvation of simmers. "Salvation is of the
Lord" means that salvation is the work of the Father, and of the Son, and of
the Holy Spirit, for God is Tripersonal.
Theologians employ a special phrase ("the economy of the Godhead") to
describe the united operation of the three Persons. In whatever activity God
engages, the three Divine Persons move in perfect unity, harmony, and
cooperation. For example, Creation was the work of the Father (Gen. 1:1) by
the Son (Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2) through the agency of the Spirit (Gen. 1:2).
Compare also Genesis 1:26-27. There was no conflict, difference of opinion,
or disunity within the Godhead in the work of Creation. The combined
operation of the Godhead is also displayed in the resurrection of Jesus.
Scripture attributes Christ's resurrection to the Father (Acts 2:24; Acts
13:30), the Son (Jno. 2:19; Jno. 10:18), and the Spirit (Rom. 1:4; Rom.
8:11; I Per. 3:18). Although the three Persons of the Godhead have their
respective offices and distinct identities, yet a marvellous oneness and
unanimity prevails.
The economy of the Godhead shines most brilliantly in the work of salvation.
Note the Divine cooperation expressed in verses like Isaiah 48:16, "The Lord
God and His Spirit hath sent Me.", and 2 Corinthians 5:19, ".God was in
Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." Nowhere is this scene more
vivid than in rich theological passages like Ephesians 1 and Romans 8, where
Father, Son, and Spirit are pictured as a Divine Team in their respective
covenant activities. The covenant of grace was planned by the Father (Eph.
1:4-5; Rom. 8:28-29,33; 2Tim. 1:9), executed by the Son (Eph. 1:7;
Rom.8:3-4,34; Jno. 6:37), and applied by the Spirit(Rom. 8:2,9,15). From
start to finish, salvation is of the Lord, without the slightest hint of
inconsistency or incongruity within the Godhead.
Three New Testament passages express the economy of the Godhead in salvation
concisely. By comparing them with one another, we can sharpen the focus on
the respective roles of each Divine Person in the Work of salvation. The
first, Galatians 4:4-6, heads this essay. The second is I Peter 1:2; "Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of
the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." The
third is Jude 1: "Jude.to them that are sanctified by God the Father,
preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." Do you see the references to Father,
Son, and Spirit in each of the above verses? By putting these verses
together, a composite picture of Trinitarian cooperation in salvation
emerges.
(1) The Work of the Father - The passages in Peter and Jude present the
Father as the Orchestrator of salvation in the covenant. Election,
Foreknowledge (I Pet. 1:2a), and Sanctification (Jude 1a) refer to the
initial act of God whereby He chose those whom He loved and set them apart
to salvation before the foundation of the world. Each term refers to God's
covenant activity. Contrary to popular interpretation, "foreknowledge" is
not synonymous with the attribute of God's omniscience, but a relational
term expressing the idea of covenant love (Cf. Gen. 4:25; Mt. 7:23; Jno.
10:27b). In other words, the word does not refer to rational knowledge, but
relational knowledge, not to information but to intimacy. In this sense, God
foreknew people, not events: "For whom He did foreknow." (Rom. 8:29a). God's
choice of a people before the world began was based on His own initiative to
establish a covenant relationship with those whom He loved: "Elect according
to the foreknowledge of God." Those whom He loved and chose, He also set
apart for Himself, that is, He sanctified them (Jude 1a). Again, the
reference to sanctification as a work of the Father must be understood in
terms of the covenant of redemption before the world began. In the same way
that the Father "sanctified" the Son (i.e. set Him apart in the covenant of
grace) and sent Him into the world (Jno. 10:36, He also sanctified His
people (again, He set them apart in the covenant as His own special people)
and "sent redemption" to them: "He sent redemption to His people: He hath
commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend is His name " (Ps.
111:9). It was precisely this group of people, i.e., those set apart in the
covenant, who were redeemed by Jesus Christ: "For by one offering He hath
perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14). The Galatians
passage presents God the Father as the great Choreographer of salvation,
dispatching (sending) the Son (v.4) and the Spirit (v.6) at the precise and
appropriate time, in order to bring us into his family as His adopted sons.
The Father who initiated the covenant also orchestrates and deploys the
covenant requirements for salvation (cf. Eph. 1:5).
(2) The Work of the Son - Galatians 4:4-5 presents the Son as the Redeemer.
The verb "to redeem" means to buy back by paying a price. It presupposes
prior ownership, for one cannot "buy back" what one never owned. By
definition, then, the doctrine of redemption is inseparably connected to the
doctrine of election. Are you beginning to see a kind of continuity in the
plan of salvation? The Father sent redemption to His people, and the Son
carried out the Father's plan completely, securing redemption for them all.
The Son did not merely make men redeemable, savable, or reconcilable. He
actually redeemed (I Pet. 1:18). He accomplished salvation (Jno. 19:30). He
reconciled (Col. 1:21)! When he ascended back to the Father's right hand, He
had "obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb. 9:12). In Christ, all the
elect "have redemption through His blood" (Eph.1:7). I Peter 1:2c presents
the Son as the Purifier, the One who by the sprinkling of His blood cleansed
"His own People" from their sins (Heb. 13:12; Rev. 1:5). This is definitive
sanctification (Heb. 2:11; I Cor. 1:2). Jude 1b presents Him as the Warden,
who guards the souls He has redeemed. Tereo, the Greek word translated
"preserved" means "to keep an eye on; to guard like a warden guards a
prisoner." Because they are guarded by the Good Shepherd, no man is able to
pluck the sheep from Christ's hand (Jno. 10:27).
(3) The Work of the Spirit - Galatians 4:6 presents the Holy Spirit as the
Divine Resident of the soul. The Father sends the Spirit to indwell the same
people for whom the Son was sent in redemption: "Because you are sons [that
is, by adoption] God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts,
crying, Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6). When he takes up residence in the soul,
the Holy Visitor promotes spiritual desire for God comparable to a child's
intuitive desire for its parent. Through this "Spirit of adoption" we cry
"Abba, Father" (Rom. 8:9). I Peter 1:2 pictures the Spirit as the
Sanctifier, the One who personally applies the blood of Christ to the soul,
individually and vitally cleansing the heart from personal sin. In contrast
to the Father's sanctifying work, which we called "covenant sanctification,"
and the Son's sanctifying work, which we called "definitive sanctification,"
the Spirit's work of sanctification in respect to eternal salvation might be
expressed by the term "vital sanctification." When a person is born again,
he is cleansed and washed within by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:24; Titus 3:5;
Jno. 13:10). Jude presents the Spirit as the Voice, the One who calls the
chosen and redeemed individual, though personally dead in sins, into new
life by His sovereign, life-giving voice (Jno. 5:25). The Spirit only calls
those whom the Father elected: "And we know that all things work together
for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His
purpose" (Rom. 8:28). But, He calls them everyone: "For whom He did
foreknow, them He also did predestinate.moreover, whom He did predestinate,
them He also called." (Rom. 8:29-30). Do you see the unity and consistency
that prevails in God's plan of salvation? Interestingly, the word kletos,
translated "called" in these texts speaks of the power, force, and Divine
greatness of the call. The word does not speak of an invitation, like "the
call of the wild," but of a creative fiat, a Divine imperative. The call of
God in regeneration is an effectual call, accomplishing God's intended
objective every time.
Application
My hypothesis states that the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity makes the
doctrines of unconditional election, particular redemption, irresistible
grace, and preservation of the saints a necessity. There is no other school
of soteriological thought that is consistent with the revelation of the
Godhead. If one accepts what the Bible says about the Being of God, he is
forced to the conclusion of sovereign grace, if he will be consistent. On
what basis can I make such bold (and some may say, dogmatic) claim? On the
basis of this fact:
Every other position regarding how sinners are saved disrupts the unity of
the Godhead. Take, for instance, the idea of general atonement (i.e. Christ
died for all men without exception and offers salvation freely to all who
will repent, believe, accept, etc.). I ask, will all for whom Christ died
ultimately be saved? General atonement says, "No, for only those who accept
His offer will be born again by the Spirit." This position disrupts the
unity of the Trinity, for it teaches that the Son died for all, but the
Spirit will only call some. What about the popular belief that God chose
those He forenew would believe in Him, although He loved the entire human
race and made salvation available to them all at the cross? By defining
election in terms of the foreseen faith of the believer, a consistency is
reached between the work of the Father and the work of the Spirit, but what
about the work of the Son? This position says that the Father chose some,
the Son died for all, and the Spirit will call some. Again, there is
disunity. Many Christians, I venture to say, believe that God the Father
loves all people equally, that God the Son died for all people equally, but
that the Spirit will only call those who respond in faith to the gospel.
Again, this position introduces an element of inconsistency into the
Trinity. The idea that some who have been redeemed can backslide to the
point that they lose their salvation also interjects an element of
uncertainty and incongruity into the Godhead. Whatever form it takes - the
Father chose all, the Son died for all, but the Spirit will only call some;
the Father chose some, the Son died for all, but the Spirit will only call
some - the interjection of a human element into the work of salvation
contradicts the Biblical testimony concerning the harmony and unity of the
Trinity and makes the outcome of salvation vague and uncertain. The old
adage puts it succinctly: A chain is no stronger than its weakest link.
Is salvation uncertain? 2 Timothy 2:19 says, "The foundation of God standeth
sure having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His.." 2 Samuel 23:5
says that God's covenant is "ordered in all things and sure.." Matthew 1:21
says that Jesus "shall save His people from their sins." Language of
certainty like this is unintelligible so long as salvation depends on man at
any level.
The "doctrine of grace" is the only model of salvation that preserves the
unity of the Trinity by maintaining consistency and harmony from start to
finish. God the Father chose a people. God the Son redeemed that precise
people. God the Holy Spirit calls that same people from death in sin to life
in Christ. Not one shall be lost. Everyone the Father intended to have with
Him will be with Him. One day Jesus will say, "Behold I and the children
that Thou hast given me" (Heb. 2:13), not some of the children or most of
the children, but every one the Father loved, the Son redeemed, and the
Spirit called. From start to finish, Salvation is of the Lord, by His free
and sovereign grace.
Few verses more plainly demonstrate the consistency and continuity of the
work of salvation than Romans 8:29-31. Trace the "whom's" and the "them's"
in the passage: "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many
brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom
He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also
glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can
be against us?" Because salvation is God's work, the "glorified" at the end
of verse thirty are precisely the same people designated as the "foreknown"
at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. Salvation is of the Lord, by free and
sovereign grace! No other school of thought harmonizes with the other Bible
doctrines. No other missing piece fits the puzzle. The doctrine of the
Trinity makes belief in the doctrine of grace the only option for those who
would be true to the word of God.
.
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| User: "Paul R. Finch" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
05 Jan 2008 10:45:01 PM |
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"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wrote in message
news:flp7nm$fv$1@news.utelfla.com...
I found the following article written by Michael Gowens to be quite
interesting and thought-provoking.
May God bless,
Carl
my website -- http://www.nettally.com/saints/
my blog -- http://www.anniemayhem.com/cgi-bin/wordpress/
---
The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners
by Michael Gowens
I John 5:7 defines the Trinity in terms of "three Persons within the unity
of one God:" "There are three that bear record in heaven. and these three
are one." God is, therefore, triune, for "trinity" means "tri-unity." This
doctrine is, in Pauline language, a Divine mystery.
The appeal to 1 John 5:7 in support of the false doctrine of the "Trinity",
a totally non-biblical concept, self condemns this post as a imbecilic
attempt at justifying the most ridiculous theory in the entire history of
human thought.
There is no scripture supporting the notion of "tri-unity."
.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
05 Jan 2008 11:50:04 PM |
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Carl wrote:
I found the following article written by Michael Gowens to be quite
interesting and thought-provoking.
JERRY
If not accurate, right Carl?
---
The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners
by Michael Gowens
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of
a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent
forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."
Galatians 4:4-6
The Bible, because it is the word of the eternal, righteous, and immutable
God, never contradicts itself.
JERRY
He's already wrong. The book of John contradicts the synoptics in a
number of places. The four gospel accounts of the Resurrection
morning contradict each other. 1 Samuel 15 contains a contradiction
on whether or not God repents (and if God repents, it also means he's
not omniscient.)
Carl's proxy
When properly understood, there is an amazing
symmetry and consistency in the historical facts it cites,
JERRY
Wrong again. Slavery as depicted in the Exodus story didn't exist in
Egypt at the time claimed. I guess in this case "consistency in the
historically facts it cites" means consistently wrong, eh?
Carl's proxy
the ethical
standards it upholds,
JERRY
Like telling fathers how to sell their daughters into slavery?
Carl's proxy
and the theological truths it champions.
JERRY
God says genocide is ok, you mean?
Carl's proxy
Whenever an
apparent contradiction occurs, the disharmony is not in God's book, but in
man's mind.
JERRY
And here is why he's a moron and you are a moron for championing him,
Carl. When there is a problem in the book, you don't automatically
assume the book is correct and the people are wrong. The bible was
written by men, not God and contains NUMEROUS errors, contradictions,
failed prophecies and historical inaccuracies. To start from an
assumption that the bible is true is to never give yourself a chance
to find a belief system that works best for you, that you can really
give yourself to, because you made that decision before you even
started reading.
<snipped as it doesn't say anything important. Given that Carl's
proxy is already proven wrong, his conclusions from here have to also
be incorrect.>
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| User: "Carl" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
05 Jan 2008 11:09:47 PM |
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The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in
totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!
Or the one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit are all Jehovah God.
2. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
Or God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the
dead.
3. Who saves man?
a. Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)? Yes!
Or God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
b. Who JUSTIFIES man?
The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
Or God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.
c. Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
The Son (Titus 2:14)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
Or God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.
d. Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
Or God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!
BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against man for
his sins?
BIBLICAL RESULT: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
Though some exalt human reason against the doctrine of the Trinity, saying
that it is "unreasonable," people who submit their minds to God's Word must
conclude that it is unreasonable NOT to believe in it.
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| User: "Mark T moi@home000whatever172" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
06 Jan 2008 03:13:51 AM |
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"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wroteth:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
.....
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
BOTH FORGERIES!!!!
90 -120 CE.
- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost
100 -150 CE
- Titus (Not Paul)
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
--
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God there!
--
Why have you traded the infinite LORD GOD YAHWEH for the finite lord / baal
Jesus of Nazareth?
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
06 Jan 2008 03:11:48 PM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:13:51 +1100, "Mark T" <moi@home000whatever172>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"Carl" <saints@nettally.com> wroteth:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
....
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
BOTH FORGERIES!!!!
Wrong.
I also note that you haven't given any sources.
90 -120 CE.
- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost
100 -150 CE
- Titus (Not Paul)
Nope! Every book of the New Testament can safely be placed within
the life-span of the author.
There is likewise reliable evidence that those we believe wrote
those books did so.
Oh, well! Thanks for posting that nice Praise Hymn from Kris
Kristofferson.
john w
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
--
When the human JEWISH Jesus of Nazareth and his JEWISH disciples went to the
JEWISH Temple at Jerusalem they DIDN'T worship Jesus as the One God there!
--
Why have you traded the infinite LORD GOD YAHWEH for the finite lord / baal
Jesus of Nazareth?
.
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| User: "Mark T moi@home000whatever174" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
06 Jan 2008 03:17:14 PM |
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"john w @woohoo.com>" <johnw<ho> wroteth:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
....
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
BOTH FORGERIES!!!!
Wrong.
I also note that you haven't given any sources.
Wrong ... and I also gave my scholarly sources
####################################
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
####################################
.... BUT YOU HAVEN'T!!!!
Every book of the New Testament can safely be placed within
the life-span of the author.
.... and pigs might fly!
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEW TESTAMENT TIMELINE
6 BCE
- Jesus birth
27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death
50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)
50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)
50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)
65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
- Source may be Peter
- Messianic secret
- Based on Deuteronomy / liturgy
- All actions could be done in one week
70 - 100 CE
- James
80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)
- Matthew's gospel
- Addressed to Diaspora
- Written in Antioch
- Conservative
- 90% of the references to Hell
- Based on Moses' life / Exodus
- Portrays division between Jews and Christians
80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter
80 CE - 130 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
- Roman recognition sought
- Gentile interested in universalism
- Focuses on spirit
- Based on II Isaiah
- Jesus portrayed as greater than Elijah
90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre
90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost
100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)
100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
*****!!!!!
--
My Blog - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
.
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| User: "john w" |
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| Title: Re: The Work Of The Trinity In The Salvation Of Sinners |
07 Jan 2008 01:51:59 AM |
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x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 08:17:14 +1100, "Mark T" <moi@home000whatever174>
wrote:
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
"john w @woohoo.com>" <johnw<ho> wroteth:
1. Who does the Bible say is God?
....
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
BOTH FORGERIES!!!!
Wrong.
I also note that you haven't given any sources.
Wrong ... and I also gave my scholarly sources
####################################
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
####################################
... BUT YOU HAVEN'T!!!!
Every book of the New Testament can safely be placed within
the life-span of the author.
... and pigs might fly!
It's not good to close your mind to other possibilities;
particularly when your mind is so notably tiny, and closed.
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
"Really! Try to believe even if it's bloody stupid and irrational." - Mark
17:2 (MTV)
"Why? Because I said so, that's why! Don't ask questions. Just
believe." - Mark 17:3 (MTV)
^ ^ ^ ^ Not clever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NEW TESTAMENT TIMELINE
6 BCE
- Jesus birth
27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death
50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)
50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)
50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)
65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
- Source may be Peter
- Messianic secret
- Based on Deuteronomy / liturgy
- All actions could be done in one week
70 - 100 CE
- James
80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)
- Matthew's gospel
- Addressed to Diaspora
- Written in Antioch
- Conservative
- 90% of the references to Hell
- Based on Moses' life / Exodus
- Portrays division between Jews and Christians
80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter
80 CE - 130 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
- Roman recognition sought
- Gentile interested in universalism
- Focuses on spirit
- Based on II Isaiah
- Jesus portrayed as greater than Elijah
90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre
90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost
100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)
100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)
Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
© 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
*****!!!!!
:-)
.
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