Mordecai! wrote:

Terry Cross wrote:

Mordecai! wrote:

Sigh - Terry - I am not going to "assert" anything.
Asserting things is a waste of time. Truth is not in words. Can't you
read the
signature? When words and actions disagree - believe actions.
Is this too difficult?
Because if I was as you said - how could you trust my words?

I wrote nothing about you personally, Mordecai. I wrote nothing about
all Jews, either.

You see, I believe most Jews are like most Christians. Buried deep in
the official lexicon are all these psychotic ideas to which most people
would never agree if they saw them directly. Moses said you should
stone people to death. The Rambam said Christians should be killed.

At bottom, those two are not much different from many other monsters in
history.

But most people do not know those terrible words exist in the back of
the library. Most people, Christians and Jews, are like the individual
of Freud's model of the psyche. They live day to day, mostly decent
people, never dreaming of the monsters waitning to jump out of the
closet at the first opportunity.

Those words are like a psychic time bomb in the cultural basement,
waiting for the right moment to blow the world to hell.

What Moses said and what you hear are different.
What Rambam said and what you hear is different.

Mordecai, we are not dealing with "say" and "hear."

We are dealing with "write" and "read."

If you believe Moses did not command the Hebrews to exterminate the
Canaanites, you should recognize that all the Hebrews who came after
Moses did not agree with you THEY understood Moses as I understand
Moses.

Trying to show us that we believe something when it is utterly and
completely without
foundation is rather useless.

I am not working with what you "believe." I am working with what is
written in the books, and what the others understand by what was
written.

Your 'examples" are false.

Not understanding your reference.

As for your ideas - test them. If they are true - then we HAVE
these concepts - and you will see them in action.

You can point to outcomes. Attitudes - concepts - ideas - thoughts and
hopes.

Susan and Cindy are excellent examples of the teachings taken to
action. Cindy lies in good conscience about Judaism. Susan will lie
transparently, again in good conscience. Both seem to feel justified
by any extreme to protect and make Judaism look good.

A number of posters from SCJ feel perfectly justified in savaging
Christianity at will, but cry foul when anyone criticizes Judaism. You
may say it is only history-induced sensitivity, but I read it as
religious hubris.

Or do you want a superficial, words only, appearance of something
with no reality
behind it.

If that is what you want - that is what you will get.
if truth and reality is the issue - than that is your choice.
Make your choice -- pay your money - because you have to live with
the outcome of your choice.

You have already told us that because we believed -this -
these other things we did had to be a lie

No I have not. I wrote no words about you personally, and I certainly
never called you a liar.

You made a cause - and you made an effect.
You noted that if this is the cause - the effect will be that we would
not be open in
any way to Christianity.

I believe most of Jews are in denial about the uglier parts of Judaism
- just as Christians about the uglier parts of the Bible. They don't
know about, and they don't deal with it. It does not drive them to
action until some fanatic points it out and commands them to read and
obey. Then all hell breaks loose.

It is like the fine print penalties on your credit card agreement, or a
motion-sensitive fuse on a bomb. As long as nothing goes wrong,
nothing goes wrong. But the potential for going wrong is terrible, as
we have seen in both religions.

We are ... as you can see.
We are not their friends - but we are not implacably opposed to them
either.

Many in SCJ ARE opposed.

So you have a way of testing... your ideas ... and what we do.
Our deeds do not match your model's prediction for our deeds - something
is wrong.

My model predicts a very savage attitude by all Mosaic religions toward
all those who are not of the same religious sect. Moses commanded it.
Moses' followers obey. History has shown many times over.

Denial is not rational, and not truthful.

... so you have said our words were not our deeds.

So you have already testified of our deeds.
What do you want?

I have done my best to express it above. The worlds needs to know what
they have signed up to. They need to know the fine print. Deep in
Judaism and Christianity, there are some terrible penalty clauses that
will come into effect when you least expect it.

TCross

Sigh - deep within economic theory - the same thing is true.

Economic theory may result in mass murders, but does not explicitly
require it. Moses requires it. I believe the difference here is very
great.

There is no utopia - there are ONLY systems which either encourage good -
or discourage
it.

That is the problem These system encourage evil. Surely you
understand there are problems with that?

My personal choice from studying? Judaism is one of the best.

Some Judaic teachers have said pleasant things. But the core teachings
of Moses are not good, on balance, and Judaism suffers for it. Racism
destroys. Brutality destroys. Extermination goes around and comes
around.

The NT would probably be the best but Christianity has no concept of what
the NT is -
and I doubt it will ever be put into practice.
Because it emphasizes personal choice - it would be easy to subvert and
would probably
the worst blood bath in history.

In my opinion, only free people can be ethical. People chained up with
a million rules cannot make choices and cannot be good.

Buddhism is quite a good religion.
Atheism is another good religion - but with the same potential for a
blood bath as the
NT.

Atheism has bproved its bllodbath potential. christianity has proved
the Pauline feudal system was flawed from the starting gate. Judaism
has no history but blood and massacre from start to finish. None can
brag.

They are the best I have found.
But - like I said - you make a choice and you pay - and you get the
outcome inherent in
the choices.

Life is neither a game, not a puzzle to be solved.
If you are interested - I did a study of the inter generational passing
of ideas. I did
this in Christianity - from the inception of superiority

Eh?

- through various doctrinal

ideas 'rooted" from within this attitude ... through the attitude of the
practitioners
throughout the ages - to the holocaust.
Always the same attitude - developed, refined and polished. Superiority
...

?

You can point it out in many Christians - even nice ones. The bias is
seen - observable
- working -and I am not speaking against these people.
Some manage it ... some oppose it. In each case, they can remain true to
"the higher
teaching" despite their bias. Which is why they can be nice people.
Some even repudiate it - but it is inherent in the doctrines - and the
translations and
the people around them.

I beg to differ. I have never seen it. At least, I would not call it
Christian.

It is a self replicating system. The RCC has touched on one of the
doctrines - and that
is good. They might actually repent of the ideas ... and remove the bias.
This is
because they looked at the outcome - and the only way to rectify their
false ideas was
to change one of the doctrines (only Christians are saved, a very late
doctrine)

Sorry, "only Christians are saved" is a doctrine embedded in the New
Testament.

Judaism contains its own brand of the same - God cares only for Jews.
Noahides can be saved if they follow rabbincal laws, but there are so
few it does not matter. So only the Jews are saved. What is the
difference?

Yes - I have looked at all of this.
You have chosen the wrong attitude for the bias in Judaism.

I see what I see.

Unfortunately, which I have knowledge of what this bias is - I cannot put
it into words
yet. it is a fine line where on one side - there is the potential for
destruction - and
on the other, there is not. Nobody has drawn the line. So whilst I admit
bias ... my
take is that it is not in the area you suggested.

You need to do a lot more work on your ideas - and if you desire truth
... TEST.
Testing allows us to check between our ideas - and reality.

Judaism has not gone down the path of superiority. Oh individuals have -
do not doubt
it. But collectively? No. As a culture, we have resisted this.

I beg to differ. I see hubris at every juncture.

Thus you have applied a Christian attitude (superiority, only us -
arrogance) to a
jewish culture - and it is not there.
Our greatest problem is indifference to non Jewish cultures. We have no
religion for
them and thus no aspirations for them. It is probably what saved us.

"We"? Are you Jewish, then?

Truth is - as I have said before, a harsh task master.
The only thing any person in this world is able to do is to make choices
to do good, or
make choices to survive or make choices to take.

PS - you are not going to change the world. All the religions will remain
despite what
you do or believe. The same is true in politics, wars, economies,
science - and
ignorance. You might desire to rethink your objective.
As you are unable to challenge any of the belief systems - what are you
going to do with
your ideas? They are 'essentially" correct even though you have failed in
the specifics
of Judaism.

So if you choose truth - I might suggest you have a good long think about
what you
desire as an outcome.

Humility is a good start for anyone. I do not know, therefore matters
must be extreme for me to intend harm. I wish others had the same
attitude.

I decided not to change the world.
But this is another choice on your part, as it was on mine.

Good luck.

Thanks. You, too.

TCross